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How far horizontally can you draft from a source?

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  • How far horizontally can you draft from a source?

    Ok, it sounds bizarre, but I want to know if I jack an additional section or two of hard suction 6" off of our first due engine, can I reach out 25' to 35' to a run off pond and draft horizontally to the supply engine?

    The pond has a short levy that sits maybe 8' above the paved surface the truck will park on and it is about 25' to the edge of the water. The depth of the pond is about 10' (give or take a bit). This is at a somewhat water starved production plant. The hold pond is rather large so it seems it could be a viable source.

    We do draft from the midmount pump to the nose of the engine (port-a-pond) with 20' of suction off the steamer regularly. So, how far horizontally can we go?
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  • #2
    If you're only lifting 10' or so you should have no problem adding on multiple hard suction sections. 35' should be a cake walk as long as all your connections are good, although your priming may be longer due to the amount of air that will need to be evacuated.
    "We accept great personal risk to save another person's life; We accept moderate personal risk to save another persons property; We accept no personal risk to save what is already lost"

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    • #3
      Like Saltspringfire said, when drafting you are only really concerned with the vertical distance from source to pump. Adding horizontal distance theoretically won't change anything.

      Realistically, extra horizontal distance will get you more friction loss, extra couplings could leak air and make obtaining and maintaining a prime difficult, and longer suction hose means the primer will have to run for a longer period of time to get water up to the pump.

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      • #4
        I don't any pics, but we've drafted through six or seven 10' lengths of 6" hard suction. It was for training, not on a fire call. It did take a little while to prime though.

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        • #5
          Last Friday night, I pulled a draft through dual 6" suctions, each 60' long, up a 17½' lift, and still flowed 1,500 GPM. So I say go for it.

          It took about 45 seconds to prime the first line, after we back flushed it. The second was primed using the centrifugal pump, not the primer pump.

          If you're worried about length, just back fill from you tank, that will help flush out a horizontal line real quick.
          Last edited by txgp17; 08-10-2010, 12:35 AM.
          The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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          • #6
            Or get a turbodraft or two. Quicker and easier to set up.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by neiowa View Post
              Or get a turbodraft or two. Quicker and easier to set up.
              Excellent point.

              But, the TurboDraft works best with 5" hose. I don't know what size LDH his dept may have, but with 4" the TurboDraft wouldn't give more than 400 GPM.

              A long stretch of 6" hard suction at a moderate lift will likely flow twice what the TurboDraft could hope to achieve.

              When using dual TurboDraft's, then things start to look better. The bad thing about a TurboDraft is that once you exceed it's flow capability, your pump cavitates and everything shuts down, and you have to start over.

              I'd much prefer 6" hard suction.
              Last edited by txgp17; 08-10-2010, 03:17 PM.
              The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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              • #8
                Theoretically, the only limitation to long horizontal suction is friction loss and airtight couplings.
                "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                sigpic
                The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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                • #9
                  Thank you for the information. It pretty much confirmed what I thought I knew.

                  60'...?....Hmmm...we have another spot where the pond is about 40' from the trucks....

                  As for the prime and back flush...uh, I'm a lazy pump op and I usually back flush to clear most of the air before I prime anyway. (oops, did I admit that?)

                  We have jet siphons on the low levels but I will probably try and use a floater because I am not exactly sure what they lined that pond with and I care not to suck a super nasty item into the pump and make the truck go "clunk".
                  A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
                    uh, I'm a lazy pump op and I usually back flush to clear most of the air before I prime anyway. (oops, did I admit that?)
                    Not lazy; "Energy Efficient."
                    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                    sigpic
                    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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                    • #11
                      Try installing a dry hydrant.

                      Lower friction loss (with properly sized piping)

                      Only one piece of hard suction is needed - Hopefully this means it is quicker to set up and more reliable because of fewer connections.

                      Easier to prime (most of the pipe is already full of water).


                      We have one with 180'+ horizontal run on a 10' lift - works just fine.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by txgp17 View Post
                        Excellent point.

                        But, the TurboDraft works best with 5" hose. I don't know what size LDH his dept may have, but with 4" the TurboDraft wouldn't give more than 400 GPM.

                        A long stretch of 6" hard suction at a moderate lift will likely flow twice what the TurboDraft could hope to achieve.

                        When using dual TurboDraft's, then things start to look better. The bad thing about a TurboDraft is that once you exceed it's flow capability, your pump cavitates and everything shuts down, and you have to start over.

                        I'd much prefer 6" hard suction.
                        I've only used 4" once (50') from foldatank to ditch. My WA estimate is 6-700gpm. I find TD literature to be pretty conservative.

                        Best use in my opinion of TD is to fill a foldatank and draft from the foldatank. Largely will eliminates the pump out running the supply. 5"S line holders are over priced though.

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                        • #13
                          NEIOWA: Expect to reduce your flow by about 100 gpm for every 10' joint of hard sleeve you add beyond 20 feet. For a 1500 gpm pump with 60' of hard sleeve you should get about 1100 gpm at a 10' lift. Be very careful as you throttle up. It will be easy to cavitate at high flow rates. Like others on here have said, "expect to have some long priming times." For pumps larger than 1500 GPM you need suction from two intakes to meet the pump spec. so with only one 6" sleeve, expect to see no difference between a 1500, 1750, or 2,000 gpm engines.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stuart View Post
                            Try installing a dry hydrant.

                            Lower friction loss (with properly sized piping)

                            .
                            We wanted one put in when the company built the plant...alas, we did not push hard enough and the pond was installed and the factory finished before we could press the issue.
                            A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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                            • #15
                              Wow glad I read this I was always told drafting more the 20 ft from any water source was about the limit didn't matter if it is was horizontal or virtical. So I guess I can start moving my dump tank alittle further way from the pumper ( assuming theres room) to give us more room to work around the pumper and get tools? Most firefighter around here insist the dump tank be right next to the pump panel or that won't use it and that use the nurse tanker set up which for me is 100 times harder and not as effective.

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