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  • #16
    I think hose deployment while fire apparatus are driving down the road happens more often than you think, it just doesn't kill or injure any one so you don't hear about it. We recieved delivery of a new truck in early 2004 and in the first two years we had lost our complete load of 1000 feet of 5 inch hose while traveling down the road and a cross lay once. We were lucky that no one was hurt, when we realized that it was not a packing problem we placed an order for a hose bed cover and todate we havent lost any hose.

    Not only does a hose bed cover keep the hose in the bed of the truck it also helps protect the hose from the enviroment such as sun, leaves, rain, snow, ice and i think you get the point.

    Everyone stay safe out there!

    Comment


    • #17
      I agree with the placements of restraints on the hose beds. If it has happened once it is once to often. We are in the prevention business, which also means prevention of accidents also, whether it is because of improper hose load or other reasons. There is always this mentality of here they come forceing another regulation on us, but if it prevents 1 injury or death why not.

      Comment


      • #18
        Going to fires is dangerous too, maybe we should stop that as well.


        (just kidding)
        "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
          \ I know in my area, I can remember 2 times in 24 years. Both times due to bad hose repacking.

          Been in 5 years, seen it twice. Both were a combo of poor packing and the most recent was the operator was driving like a friggin' idiot. Both trucks had dimond plate over the top of the bed and a flap over the end that was secured in a similar means to the new NFPA standard. Still layed about 800' of 4" off the first time, and about 35-45' of 2 1/2" the second. Maybe it isn't so much the new rigs/hose/nets or whatever that is the problem with accidental layouts but perhaps our driving and poor equipment checks.......just a random thought. As for fires being dangerous, I'll keep wearing my NON-NFPA compliant lid into them. :-)
          No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

          IACOJ 2003

          Comment


          • #20
            I keep seeing or hearing people saying that a manufacturer will not defer from NFPA GUIDELINES. (Note I use the word GUIDELINE. NFPA is NOT LAW.) Persons posting in these forums have stated "XYZ Apparatus told us they will not deliver a truck manufactured to our specs as they do not meet NFPA requirements."

            Never, not once have I ever seen evidence or proof of this happening. Does anyone have anything in writing (converted to PDF format) on factory letterhead stating a Mfr will not "do something their way" because the allmighty NFPA says NO? Just curious.

            And before you all bash me, I am not totally against the NFPA. Just most of it. And I dont think anyone who is employed by a manufacturer should be allowed to sit on any committees designing guidelines for that particular object/design/topic etc etc etc.
            "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

            Comment


            • #21
              Not saying you are in the NFPA bashing mode but I tend to disagree with your point on mfg's not being on the NFPA comittees. Lets look at the newest change upcoming in 1851 regarding SCBA. There is a WhAcKeR company officer in Sacramento CA that cant get his three guys to check their SCBA at the start of their shift so this moron has got the comittee to agree EVERY FD IN THE NATION needs this to make sure we are all safe. The fact is IT IS GOING TO COST US ALL, big department or small. My question is how/why did one person influence the NFPA 1851 comittee for this change when they can't even do their job as a company officer ?
              The evidence of God's presence far outweighs the
              proof of His absence.

              Comment


              • #22
                just tell them you won't buy it from them if they won't stray from someone's GUIDELINES. FDNY does it, we have 3 aerials that are non-compliant, so be it.

                the NFPA should be re structured to have union leaders, chiefs, officers, even firefighters on it and no manufacturers allowed.

                this is what this country has came to when everyone and everything has to have someone/something babysit them.

                screw PC screw affirmative action and screw the NFPA

                Comment


                • #23
                  FDNY does it, we have 3 aerials that are non-compliant, so be it.
                  meant to say FDNY does it and that we (not NY) have 3 aerials that are non-compliant

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Both trucks had dimond plate over the top of the bed and a flap over the end that was secured in a similar means to the new NFPA standard.
                    Ah, so another "mandate" that is not solving the issue.

                    Not
                    For
                    Practical
                    Application
                    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                      Ah, so another "mandate" that is not solving the issue.

                      Not
                      For
                      Practical
                      Application
                      I've been trying to put this in for the last three days, but for some reason it wouldn't go. Was it trying to tell me something?

                      I feel like I want to share some thoughts here. Or maybe vent is a better description. Everyone please bear in mind that much of this is my PERSONAL OPINION and is based more on observations down through the years rather than provable facts.

                      Bear in mind that everything here begins with the basic premise, IT'S ABOUT MONEY.

                      Why do manufacturers have a dominant position on the committee? Because they have a major stake in what comes out, and they can afford it. Look at the practical factors. It costs beaucoup bucks to participate in the meetings. Presumably they're held at or near NFPA headquarters in Quincy, Mass., near Boston. So in order to attend, you have to travel to Boston and stay there for the duration of the meeting. Meaning travel cost, meals, hotels, etc. for however long. Does NFPA pay for that? If not, as I suspect, can you afford it? Can or will your department go the price? Will they keep you on their clock, or are you on your own time? To the manufacturers (apparatus or components), it's a worthwhile business expense, and a tax writeoff. And all the while, they get to push the stuff they sell.

                      Example: Some years back it was decreed that we all had to have liquid filled gauges unless we were willing to put up with snubbers. Nothing else woud do. Happens only one company made liquid filled gauges at the time and their guy was on the committee. So all of the truck builders went over to them. And we wrench turners spent our days replacing their leaky gauges.

                      Now you don't have to use liquid filled gauges. I don't know why, but I'll guess that it's because now there are competing liquid filled guages. Since that company no longer has a corner on the market, it's no longer an issue.

                      Some years back I got tired of replacing gauges, so I found a line of dry guages that really work well. Over a period of a year, I replaced every gauge on the engine. And guess what's going on the new engine. I would be remiss if I didn't say this - the liquid gauge company was good about repairing and/or replacing the leakers. They fixed some for free, replaced some for free, and replaced others for 1/2 price. But that was only supplying the gauges - I still had to do the labor. And why should it have been necessary in the first place? Because one company with bucks enough to afford to send their guy to the meetings, did so.

                      Now I'm not against someone selling a product and making a buck on it. Quite the contrary, I view myself as a hard core capitalist. But if you have a truly good product, you don't have to compel people to buy it - they'll get in line for it.

                      So how do we even the playing field? Good question, and I don't have a good answer. I don't claim any knowledge of the inner workings at NFPA, but I'll guess that they won't go for anything that will cost them money. (Remember, IT'S ABOUT MONEY.) And the solution I would offer would cost them money. I wouldn't want to eliminate manufacturers from the committee; I think their knowledge and insight is critical to the committee's work. But I would want to have the committee structured to reduce their dominance and increase our input. The obvious first thought is to have NFPA pay for the expenses of the committee members, or at least those outside of the manufacturer community. But as I said above, I don't see them going for that.

                      Another possibility is to do something along the lines of an organization that I am a member of - the Technology and Maintenance Council of the American Trucking Associations. It's a group composed primarily of maintenance managers and executives of trucking companies. They develop recommended practices for maintenance of vehicles. They also, independently or in conjunction with SAE, develop some engineering and design standards(Recommeded Engineering Practices). Truck manufacturers and component suppliers can be members (at a different dues structure). They can and do provide tons of valuable input and insight, but they have no vote. The truck builders buy in to the REPs, because if they don't, the fleets won't buy their trucks. There's at least one fire apparatus manufacturer that is a member (no, we didn't buy theirs). You don't have to be a member use the REP book. You just buy it and read it.

                      What comes out of participation makes it worthwhile for the trucking companies to send their people, three times a year, for several days at a time. But most of us aren't in that position.

                      What TMC does do, and how I'm able to participate, is that any proposed practice, or change to an existing practice goes through a committee procedure. It gets written up in great detail, and before it can be accepted, it gets mailed out to all voting members to be voted upon. When you vote, you accept or not, and in either case, you can submit comments. Before final acceptance, all comments have to be reviewed by the cognizant committee. If there's something that would alter the proposed practice that the committee feels is important, the proposal gets redone and reballotted.

                      Another note: Until they get to the fire, our apparatus are trucks. They're pretty much made out of the same stuff highway trucks are, using the same construction methods. So the chassis portion of our spec was loaded with references to TMC Recommended Engineering Practices.

                      Enough of this diatribe. Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        NFPA is definitely only a guideline and not law on the surface. The reality is that the courts (who are the law), accept NFPA guidelines as standards. I’m sure that a lawyer is not going to have too difficult of a time convincing the12 guys and gals in the jury box that the NFPA is correct and Mr. Don’t-Need is wrong.

                        Many apparatus manufacturers will build truck if YOU sign off on a NFPA discrepancy. I guess it all depends on whether YOU want to take personal responsibility.

                        Stay Safe

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Just being curious, I pulled out the old NFPA 1901 2003 Edition.

                          The following members were on the Technical Committee on Fire Department Apparatus (I won't list names, just where they're from)

                          Chair - San Diego F.D.
                          Secretary - Sutphen
                          Members:

                          Hypro (also as rep for FAMA)
                          Plano, TX (not sure if a dept. member, but he's a well respected
                          columnist on fire apparatus)
                          VFIS
                          Darley (also as a rep for Nat'l Truck Equip Assoc.)
                          Los Angeles Fire Dept.
                          A fire equipment exporter from IL
                          A fleet manager for the CDF
                          Hale Products
                          Underwriters Labs
                          An attorney who represents FAMA & FEMSA
                          Fire Service Research Institute, MO
                          Hartly Vol. Fire Company, DE (also as a rep for the NVFC)
                          Waterous Co.
                          Pierce Mfg.
                          Jersey City F.D.
                          Northwest Fire Dist., AZ
                          Fairfax County Fire/Rescue Dept.
                          Champaign Fire Dept, IL
                          ALF Aerials
                          Saulsbury
                          Goshen Fire Co.
                          KME
                          Ridgefield, CT (also as a rep for IAFC)
                          Charlotte Fire Dept., NC
                          Fire & Safety Specialists, Inc.
                          Safetek Emergency Vehicles

                          28 total members, 10 of which are tied directly to building apparatus or components. 12 appear to represent a department or an organization (NVFC, IAFC). The other six include an attorney, a couple of equipment delaers, etc.

                          As much as we want to blame the manufacturers for steering these committees to serve their wants and desires, there are plenty of other folks involved that have no real vested interest in making the manufacturer's pockets any more full.
                          "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I try to follow them

                            Originally posted by orangebuster View Post
                            I had a chief from a mutual-aid company ask me the other day if there was or is going to be any law on pre-connect hose beds having to be secured by webbing or whatever.

                            The last I had heard was that some companies up in the Pittsburgh area were going to these ideas due to the accident that happened in that area a couple of years ago, but I was not certain on any other mandates.

                            Is there a policy in place at this time or is there going to be in the future? You can e-mail me at [email protected]

                            Thanks.


                            STILL DOING IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                            I tried to follow them when I built my Type II Tenders using the Hand Grabs, Non-Slip Treads, NFPA Baffles, Tank Tie Downs, Ground and Task Lighting, ect. Had my side quick attack hose strapped down so it would not deploy by itself. One time I noticed it was flaping in the wind looking in the side mirror! What a mess that would have been if it had wound up on my axles or another vehicals. It now still has a strap plus several more in case one comes loose! Mark

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              firefighter1962: NFPA is definitely only a guideline and not law on the surface. The reality is that the courts (who are the law), accept NFPA guidelines as standards. I’m sure that a lawyer is not going to have too difficult of a time convincing the12 guys and gals in the jury box that the NFPA is correct and Mr. Don’t-Need is wrong.

                              Many apparatus manufacturers will build truck if YOU sign off on a NFPA discrepancy. I guess it all depends on whether YOU want to take personal responsibility.

                              Stay Safe
                              In Wisconsin many NFPA Standards are the law. They were adopted by the Commerce Department and NFPA 1901 was one of them adopted.

                              FyredUp
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                NFPA & You

                                I was a member of the NFPA 1901 Committee and represented the Canadian Fire Services and also was on ULC (Underwriters Laboratories Of Canada) Standard committee which is the Canadian version of NFPA and worked to have a harmonized Canadian standard using NFPA and ULC and in some cases we were able to improve the NFPA and vice versa.

                                I am an apparatus dealer and have been for over 20 years and make no excuses for same as I've endeavoured as have the other committee members to make apparatus safer based on the accidents, injuries and fatalities that occur in our industry. As you know NO one gets paid and either themselves or their company pay their expenses to attend the meeting that are held all over the US with the lastest being in Orlando to coincide with the FDSOA Apparatus Symposium.

                                However, that said I hear the anger and frustration that some of you want to take out on the NFPA committee but it's only one look at 1500, 1710 and the SCBA standard. ALSO don't forget that YOU can submit your comments in the public comment stage before the next standard is ratified later this year or early next year. SO don't anyway say it's a done deal by the NFPA committee as that not fair or accurate.

                                I'm not going to rant/rave either but recently there is a class action lawsuit againest the siren manufacturers by some FF in NJ blaming the manufacturer for hearing loss damage SO where/who do we blame or stop the buck with..

                                If you don't like it then get active and participate but don't just bitch and rant and rave about the NFPA as the intent is to protect the lives of the FF.

                                Comment

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