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  • BC79er
    replied
    It's not just a clause having no division of the warranty work, most have be saying here is that the dealer has wanted to do the warranty work, it's above them where the problem lies.

    For example, X builds the truck with chassis from Y, local dealer delivers. Up comes an obvious warranty issue with the Y chassis. The dealer wants to fix but still needs clearance so the notifications move up the food chain. X says yes, it's a Y warranty issue. Y says no, we want to know more and until we do we're not paying for it because X may have put X's part on Y's chassis wrong. Dealer is trying to do the right thing but with having bills to pay can't fix until someone agrees to pay for it. X isn't going to, Dealer isn't going to, because it looks like it is Y's cost to bear. So while those 3 fight it out, regardless of who is right the truck doesn't get fixed.

    So the clause to have is the one that X is going to pay for all warranty work up front so either the dealer or the authorized service center is going to get paid for the work so the truck gets back in service ASAP. That makes it X's problem to collect it's money back from Y and leaves the department and dealer out of the money issue, which is what usually holds things up.

    Such a clause isn't necessary in sole-source because that's how manufacturer Z has their agreements with their suppliers of the components. They fix, bill supplier, department is out of it. With similar agreements in place, X could be a "sole-source" without actually building each piece themselves. Doesn't make a sole-source built truck any better or worse than another builder, it's just how the parts are assembled. And it also takes some of the grief away from X's dealer who is trying to do the right thing.

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  • efd281
    replied
    Hmmmmpfff

    Sole Source is a sales gimmick. I'm a sales man, I should know. I tell all of my customers exactly what has been said here, SERVICE IS KING!! If anything you should request no divided responsability for the warranty work. Truely, many of the newest "sole-source" manufacturers get their chassis' built for them by Spartan. But they warranty them. Just my two bits!!

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  • BC79er
    replied
    Then that's a warranty issue because it was doomed from the factory. IMHO anyway. Not worth much on the open market sometimes.

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  • RFDACM
    replied
    While I don't personally know the shops credentials, the tech that was in charge of correcting our rust issues seemed to think the surfaces had not been properly dried before paint had been applied originally. He noted impurities in the galvaneal sheeting like pockets of rust within the metal? The rust issues basically came from the inside vs. scratched and dings causing rust fromthe outside.

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  • BC79er
    replied
    Any rust is too much. As long as the truck is washed regularly to get road salt or other corrosives off of the paint, then it should last. Check the paint warranty too, with the exception of dings and dents to compromise the integrity of the paint it should last through the whole warranty, and if it isn't then it needs repainting. On their dime. That's also why I've seen a couple departments put that epoxy underneath, the stuff like the spray on truck bed liner. Maybe not all of the moving parts, but the underside of the body is what will rust first anyway so covering those areas practically eliminates the rust issue.

    I know a few places that do steam clean the underside after checking for leaking fluids. Of course I know the opposite too and no one knows how to raise the cab, how to lube pump handles and other basics. My own personal view is take care of it like you paid for it to make it last. Although it really isn't that big of a deal, it's not like anyone's life depends on the trucks staying in service and operating properly...

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  • RFDACM
    replied
    Originally posted by BC79er
    More important would be to have regular checkouts of the apparatus for issues to catch before they become major. Many departments have quarterly checkouts that involve creepers and they go over the truck from head to toe.
    Thuis is what is done here. We have the daily shift change fluids, starts checklist. Then once a week they get a thourough inspection. During the normal 200 hr service they get the full treatment (2-3 months for most frontline). We have noted many issues during these checks.

    The problem comes with how much rust is too much? If we took care of every surface spot each week the truck would be OOS alot. So you let a little spot get bigger and then at some pint it is corrected and the cycle starts again. Over time lots of rust was found, cleaned up and re-covered. Many places up inside and behind body mounting structure is where the major issues were found in our case.

    The cab issues were found on a fluke. I imagine that we could have run this way for years (more as its probably been that way since the first year) if the person who noticed the cracks had been looking out the window at the right time. The stars aligned and the cracks were illuminated by the sunlight through the window while the cab was up. Short of steam cleaning and going over the undercarraige and cab often, I don't believe this would have been caught.

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  • Halligan84
    replied
    2 points... you see alot of refurbed CF's cause there were alot of RUSTY CF's. Seems most manufacturers have the rust thing figured out. The 70's were a bad time for rusty rigs.

    We have had good luck with KME and RD Murray using other manufacturers chassis. We write our purchase contract to state that the general contractor is responsible for administration of all warranty work and will provide us with a single contact for all claims. Both manufacturers agreed to this and although they are mostly out of warranty, we have had nothing but good luck with both.

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  • NewJerseyFFII
    replied
    Our old 1972 Mack cf 600 was built from " Gavaneal Steel " and we had very little rust on the cab or body after many years of driving in rain & snow with road salt on the new jersey highways !...MAYBE THEY USED BETTER MATERIALS IN THOSE DAYS.

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  • BC79er
    replied
    More important would be to have regular checkouts of the apparatus for issues to catch before they become major. Many departments have quarterly checkouts that involve creepers and they go over the truck from head to toe. At any given point anyone in the department can check a sheet to see what is wrong with a truck. Unit checkouts are more than just fluid levels and if the thing will start at shift change or en route to a call. Most apparatus problems start small and build because no one looks for them or does anything about them while they are small. I'm not saying put the thing in the shop at every leak, but they all need to be looked at regularly from bow to stern.

    In the department I ran with up north part of being cleared on the truck was knowing how it all was put together and knowing how to perform basic troubleshooting to know whether or not the truck needed to be fixed immediately or it could wait for the next scheduled maintenance. Too many people want the responsibility of being behind the steering wheel during the run, but after that they get the "it's not my truck" attitude.

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  • RFDACM
    replied
    101: I'll second the motion on NO GALVANEAL!! This was clearly one of the biggest mistakes our department has made with regards to apparatus. The unit in question returned to service (less the use of the unsafe rear seats) after a complete sandblasting and paint job. The service shop said not to expect more than another 4-5 years on the rest of the body. This is a 1999 galvaneal body unit. The unit is beyond its body warranty. It certainly would have paid to go over the apparatus with a fine tooth comb in the months preceeding the warranty's running out, as we certainly had the issues then, but it was not "bad" enough to require immediate work? I'm recommending that we put all the warranty dates in the service log for each apparatus, so as we near these dates we can scrutinize, document and report every detail before the warranty runs out.

    The second part of the issue for this particular unit is the cab/chassis rear facing seating which has developed cracks in all places where the seats are bolted or welded down. This is where Rosenbauer/Central blew us off and told us to contact HME directly. I withhold any judgement on HME's ability to rectify these defects until we have a more definitive course of action. To their credit they were atleast open to review digital images and discussing corrections from day one, unlike the builder.

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    I'm in agreement that a GOOD dealer will facilitate any issues you might have.That being said;in today's legitinous society everybody tries to weasel out of a legitimate repair. Sole source has some advantages but again falls into the about the same category,only as good as the people supporting it. I feel RFD's pain on the issues he's experiencing,a classic case of pass the buck(fault).If it was my decision,I would NEVER buy a galvaneal body but that does NOT excuse the LACK of support after the sale.Of course I'm not one that takes getting put off lightly,as anybody that knows me very well knows.The sqeaking wheel gets the grease and a SCREECHING wheel;well you get the drift. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-13-2006, 09:07 AM.

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  • RFDACM
    replied
    As I noted, we have a current issue with this. Outsourced chassis and builder claims problems with the chassis/cab are not their problem. They've sent us to the cab/chassis builder. Both the original builder and the cab/chassis builder specifically have told us to go direct and not through the dealer as all "warranty" work must be approved above the dealer. Now, I'll give you that the right dealer might take it upon themselves to fix the problem first and sort out the details later, but I'm betting that thats rarer than the norm. For those of us who do not have significant numbers of apparatus from one dealer, their incentive to take one for us is a little less. I'm not saying you shouldn't by other than sole-source, given your dealer, rep and builder, fleet maintenance shop, and service centers this could be a better option. For us, there are few(maybe one) longtime dealers in our State. And currently, no dealer affiliated service centers unless specifically specced by the municipality. To minimize issues we want a sole source builder who will address all issues. We do have quality engine, and transmission centers and to that end we never had issues, its always other than drivetrain type problems that the finger pointing has come from. And even in non-sole source issues the day to day problems and annoynaces probably are handled well most of the time, but let's see when the issues causes a major components failure, high cost repair or injury/death?

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  • ffp8106
    replied
    B79er....good post. my own dept had a warranty on several units where there was the sentence where warranty issues for some components would eb covered by the component people. When we had a problem, we called the dealer, and they said they would call the component supplier and have them fix our problems. So again, it was a sole source unit, but the dealer, not the factory stepped up to the plate for us. the dealer even told us he was having problems getting paid by the manufacturer for warranty work and may have to work out payment before he would fix issues. They did fix the stuff anyway and worried about payment after. Again my feeling the "sole source" stuff is merely marketing hype.

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  • BC79er
    replied
    Local dealer is the key, but there is more finger pointing in an "outsourced" situation than in a sole-source. Obviously no one builds their own engines, wheels, wire, light bulbs, or any of it. They all buy it from someone else. Sole source means that when the paperwork was signed to by from them, they are the warranty holder, not the manufacturers of the individual products. I believe some non-sole source builders also do this, but I don't know for sure. If they do, then they are acting like sole source. It's all about who is going to handle the warranty issues.

    No matter who it is, the dealers must get permission from the parent company to perform the work or get it performed. We have units from both types of builders. Both have gone to Stuart and Stevenson for Detroit Diesel warranty work because they are better equipped to handle it than the mechanics for the two dealers. Both were under warranty and handled by the dealers with permission from the parent company. When we had a chassis issue with the non-sole source trucks, the dealer could not get permission to fix it under warranty because it was expensive and the manufacturer could not get clearance from the chassis company to let the dealer perform the work. This was funny, because both chassis and builder are owned by the same parent company, so they got the bill no matter who "paid" for the work. With the sole source trucks it is their chassis, they handle it no matter what. It doesn't mean they won't end up in a fight, one of the recently failed dealers in Houston was owed a ton of dough from the sole source manufacturer for warranty work that the dealer performed.

    They all have their goods and bads. Many of the other folks in the know around here will agree, if you build it right, require the right performance metrics from the builder, you'll have no problems regardless of badge. I've had no recurring problems in helping people out with trucks from any one builder, it was always a bad dealer. Spec what you want, have a reason for why you want it that way, and make sure you're getting what your taxpayers are footing the bill for.

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  • ffp8106
    replied
    sorry...i meant fingers, not finders

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