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  • #16
    Originally posted by BC79er
    More important would be to have regular checkouts of the apparatus for issues to catch before they become major. Many departments have quarterly checkouts that involve creepers and they go over the truck from head to toe.
    Thuis is what is done here. We have the daily shift change fluids, starts checklist. Then once a week they get a thourough inspection. During the normal 200 hr service they get the full treatment (2-3 months for most frontline). We have noted many issues during these checks.

    The problem comes with how much rust is too much? If we took care of every surface spot each week the truck would be OOS alot. So you let a little spot get bigger and then at some pint it is corrected and the cycle starts again. Over time lots of rust was found, cleaned up and re-covered. Many places up inside and behind body mounting structure is where the major issues were found in our case.

    The cab issues were found on a fluke. I imagine that we could have run this way for years (more as its probably been that way since the first year) if the person who noticed the cracks had been looking out the window at the right time. The stars aligned and the cracks were illuminated by the sunlight through the window while the cab was up. Short of steam cleaning and going over the undercarraige and cab often, I don't believe this would have been caught.

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    • #17
      Any rust is too much. As long as the truck is washed regularly to get road salt or other corrosives off of the paint, then it should last. Check the paint warranty too, with the exception of dings and dents to compromise the integrity of the paint it should last through the whole warranty, and if it isn't then it needs repainting. On their dime. That's also why I've seen a couple departments put that epoxy underneath, the stuff like the spray on truck bed liner. Maybe not all of the moving parts, but the underside of the body is what will rust first anyway so covering those areas practically eliminates the rust issue.

      I know a few places that do steam clean the underside after checking for leaking fluids. Of course I know the opposite too and no one knows how to raise the cab, how to lube pump handles and other basics. My own personal view is take care of it like you paid for it to make it last. Although it really isn't that big of a deal, it's not like anyone's life depends on the trucks staying in service and operating properly...
      Brian P. Vickers
      www.vickersconsultingservices.com
      Emergency Services Consulting
      Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
      Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

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      • #18
        While I don't personally know the shops credentials, the tech that was in charge of correcting our rust issues seemed to think the surfaces had not been properly dried before paint had been applied originally. He noted impurities in the galvaneal sheeting like pockets of rust within the metal? The rust issues basically came from the inside vs. scratched and dings causing rust fromthe outside.

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        • #19
          Then that's a warranty issue because it was doomed from the factory. IMHO anyway. Not worth much on the open market sometimes.
          Brian P. Vickers
          www.vickersconsultingservices.com
          Emergency Services Consulting
          Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
          Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

          Comment


          • #20
            Hmmmmpfff

            Sole Source is a sales gimmick. I'm a sales man, I should know. I tell all of my customers exactly what has been said here, SERVICE IS KING!! If anything you should request no divided responsability for the warranty work. Truely, many of the newest "sole-source" manufacturers get their chassis' built for them by Spartan. But they warranty them. Just my two bits!!
            I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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            • #21
              It's not just a clause having no division of the warranty work, most have be saying here is that the dealer has wanted to do the warranty work, it's above them where the problem lies.

              For example, X builds the truck with chassis from Y, local dealer delivers. Up comes an obvious warranty issue with the Y chassis. The dealer wants to fix but still needs clearance so the notifications move up the food chain. X says yes, it's a Y warranty issue. Y says no, we want to know more and until we do we're not paying for it because X may have put X's part on Y's chassis wrong. Dealer is trying to do the right thing but with having bills to pay can't fix until someone agrees to pay for it. X isn't going to, Dealer isn't going to, because it looks like it is Y's cost to bear. So while those 3 fight it out, regardless of who is right the truck doesn't get fixed.

              So the clause to have is the one that X is going to pay for all warranty work up front so either the dealer or the authorized service center is going to get paid for the work so the truck gets back in service ASAP. That makes it X's problem to collect it's money back from Y and leaves the department and dealer out of the money issue, which is what usually holds things up.

              Such a clause isn't necessary in sole-source because that's how manufacturer Z has their agreements with their suppliers of the components. They fix, bill supplier, department is out of it. With similar agreements in place, X could be a "sole-source" without actually building each piece themselves. Doesn't make a sole-source built truck any better or worse than another builder, it's just how the parts are assembled. And it also takes some of the grief away from X's dealer who is trying to do the right thing.
              Brian P. Vickers
              www.vickersconsultingservices.com
              Emergency Services Consulting
              Westlake VFD - Houston, TX
              Proud Member IACOJ - Redneck Division

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              • #22
                Smeal buys chassis cabs from Spartan & Ferrara , Rosenbauer buys Spartans , Crimson fire is owned by Spartan chassis co. Etc !....Also Smeal at one time built aerial ladders for " Pierce " and now they build for " Ferrara " & RK Aerials go to " Seagrave for there midmount & rear mount towers.
                Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 07-15-2006, 09:07 AM.

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                • #23
                  For what it's worth, in California, state law states that the final stage builder is responsible for all warranty. So everything is "sole source" basically.

                  However I usually find it more expeditious to handle engine and transmission warranties with their respective companies directly, and body/chassis warranties I just do myself and bill the builder. Our geographic location has the engine and transmission builders closer to us (rural/farm so the agriculture needs them) while the apparatus specific people are much farther away.

                  Birken

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                  • #24
                    "Such a clause isn't necessary in sole-source because that's how manufacturer Z has their agreements with their suppliers of the components. They fix, bill supplier, department is out of it. With similar agreements in place, X could be a "sole-source" without actually building each piece themselves. Doesn't make a sole-source built truck any better or worse than another builder, it's just how the parts are assembled. And it also takes some of the grief away from X's dealer who is trying to do the right thing."

                    What happens if the "sole source" factory tells the dealer they wont warranty a part for whatever reason? the dealer still gets stuck just the same as if the factory is not a "sole source" co.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ffp8106
                      What happens if the "sole source" factory tells the dealer they wont warranty a part for whatever reason? the dealer still gets stuck just the same as if the factory is not a "sole source" co.
                      The problem we've seen in our neck of the woods is the dealer will not do work until builder approval! I'd say the real losers are the owners of the trucks, most of the time, not the dealers or builders. Sole source may just eliminate a few steps or speed the process, they ceratinly can still deny repairs. The issue is time the apparatus is out of service followed by cost of repairs.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RFDACM
                        The problem we've seen in our neck of the woods is the dealer will not do work until builder approval! I'd say the real losers are the owners of the trucks, most of the time, not the dealers or builders. Sole source may just eliminate a few steps or speed the process, they ceratinly can still deny repairs. The issue is time the apparatus is out of service followed by cost of repairs.
                        The reason that E-ONE lost many major dealers this year was because of unpaid warranty claims by E-ONE. The customers would call the dealer staiting they had a warranty problem. Dealer says no problem and fixes it only to find out E-ONE won't pay it. Hence, it's going to be hard to find any dealer to just go ahead and fix things withour prior authorization from the factory.

                        Sole Source is a buzz word that is being used as a sales gimmick. It ends up confusing us customers because we really don't don't know the true meaning. They would be better off advertising it as "One Call Warranty Center" or "One Call Service Center". IMHO opinion, that is what sole source comes down to - Who do I call when I have a warranty/service problem?

                        As you previously state, In the end the customer looses as there truck has to be taken out of service. However fire trucks are fire trucks and they will eventually have problems. Make sure you find the dealer who you think will stand behind you when it comes to these issues. It will make things much easier.

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                        • #27
                          Sole source? One name. Mack. (chassis only!)
                          "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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                          • #28
                            the company that could have been considered the most "sole sourced" sold their fire apparatus division last year . daimler chrysler.

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                            • #29
                              One thing I ought to mention also is if you include a penalty clause in your contract for days out of service, the dealer will have an incentive to fix it faster and sort out the warranty claims later. If you can get that in there.

                              Birken

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                              • #30
                                Missing the point...

                                Sole source is about the concept of the vehicle and its intended use. Where a manufacturer utilizes an in house engineering department to develop a vehicle that utilizes its own chassis, body, and aerial device into one package. Not necessarily who will turn the wrenches or foot the bill.

                                Making sure the vehicle is fully integrated from bumper to bumper is what sole source is all about. Today, there are more integrated systems on a fire apparatus than ever before. Especially on aerial apparatus. Buying a vehicle from any manufacturer that does not build their own chassis and integrates those systems into a complete fire apparatus is a gamble.

                                Therefore, sole source needs to include engineering and design and development of the apparatus. Not just buying a cab and building on top of it.

                                The odds being what they are... can you risk buying from a non sole source company?

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