E-One Accident!!

[Bulldog]

Ok, Why haven't we heard all the negatives about the E-one roll over in Phoenix that was reported as a suspension failure (See 9/29/03 WOF report). I guess E-One can't get bashed here? Only Pierce, Seagrave etc. can get that honor?

Anyone got any pictures?

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

The What Happen in Phoenix forum has the links to the news videos.

Yes, it is strange to not see anyone chiming in. After Colorado there was all sorts of Pierce bashing going on, based all on speculation. The news did report some sort of rear axle failure here, but again we won't know the real story, so speculating is a waste of time.

If it was suspension in the axle, what was it? There really isn't too much of a difference in tandem axles between chassis', so there could be something to learn here.

I watched it twice and I didn't even realize it was an E-One. Monitor is at 1200x768 so the video ran small. They were making a turn from a cross street, so if we say they were maybe doing 25mph and rolled before sliding into the sidewalk (slowing it down some), I'm not really impressed with the way that the top of the cab crushed against that telephone pole. A low speed collision and very visible cab integrity loss? The cab may have come off of the Pierce, but as fast as it was going the structural integrity of the cab was not compromised in any of the pictures that people posted. But again, the impact physics were different, so who knows what would have happened. I don't know that anyone does any crash tests into objects like this. Might be the thing to do for our safety.

More important than the badge on the front, was the crew was unscathed.

[Bones42]

Personally, I'm a big fan of E-One. We have 2 and have had nothing but good things to say, from ground up. My other company in town has Pierces. They also have nothing but good to say about their trucks.

When I saw the article on the Pierce roll over, I made a comment about how I was surprised the cab came entirely off. Didn't even know it was a Pierce at that time. Today was the first I saw anything about the E-One roll over.

Said it before, I'll say it again...I don't care who made it. If a cab came off on a Pierce, E-One, Seagrave, etc., the cab came off. Don't care who built it.

There are too many people on here (and BullDog sounds like one) that just want to bash someone else for no good reason. You see people bashing, there's that nice little ignore button.

Thankful no one is seriously hurt.

[Resq14]

The truck tipped over onto the sidewalk...

I have pictures of much more violent collisions with E-Ones... and still, the cab did not fly off the chassis (yes it was a tilt-cab too). This includes multi-roll rollovers.

We can start being critical of every mistake made, and every incident involving trucks--I'm usually one of the first to do so with these types of incidents. That aside though, the outcome of the Pierce incident in Colorado is very different from any collision I have seen involving fire apparatus. Want pics of fire trucks on their sides? I have hundreds, all from different manufacturers. And with the exception of this latest Pierce collision, they all look the same.

tony

[Engine153]

Bones42, you're missing the point here. Look at the Pierce Quint post and you will see 4 pages of speculation and guessing as to what caused the accident. Alot of this discussion centered on rear axle or tire failure and why the cab came off. The point being made is that, although we're still early in this discussion, we probably won't see the response to this accident that we did to the Pierce accident. Why? I don't know. I do know that alot of the more vocal regular respondents on this forum are E-ONE fans. Nothing wrong with that. I would hope that we get a balanced audience that look at these accidents objectively. Something failed on that truck to cause this. Was it a tire? Are we seeing overloading/overheating situations?
The other thing that worries me, as has already been pointed out is the upper cab destruction. The whole greenhouse area shifted to the left. And it was hard to tell from the video, but did the ladder on this truck come out of its cradle? I know, it's a Bronto Skylift and they rest different than on conventional ladders. It just looks to me that the boom section is farther away from the cab/body structure than normal. Maybe the photographers will be all over this one before the tarps come down so that we can get a better look, for educational purposes of course.

[CAPN22]

Bulldog, No one jumped on the Pierce accident. The incident occured on Sept 4 and the 1st mention of it here was on Sept 9th in the forums.

The E-One hit the forums in less than 24 hours.

The Pierce issue was confined to this forum.

The E-One has made 3 Forums.

That's Special Treatment alright.

[STATION2]

Engine 153, I jinxed myself the other day on the Pierce forum didn't I? LOL. Oh well. Again, the important part is that none of the fire fighters was seriously hurt. As for the rig, rumor has has it that its totaled, but that is unconfirmed as of yet. What caused it, who knows. As expected there is alot of speculation but the rig made some kind of pop or jump, became airborne and rolled over and slid to a stop short of a building. If anyone has still photos of the incident, please post them. Just some thoughts.

Stay low and move it in.

[Bulldog]

Not Bashing

Bonz & Capn:
I'm far from bashing, as a matter of fact I don't like it when any one or type of equipment is bashed. Yes it took a couple of days for the pierce article to hit but once it did it took off!! Everyone chimed in to bash Pierce! Seems like the E-one folks are the first to point fingers and the others just debate the true facts. No article has speculated on a cause of the Pierce crash except for possible blow out but many parts of the truck design has been knocked. On the other hand 2 of the first articles on the E-one accident pointed to suspension yet no one had knocked E-One.
Seems like the none e-one fols are not as vocal. Why don't we all just get along?

BY THE WAY I'LL TAKE A MACK CF ANY DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

[firenresq77]

Why don't we all just get along?

I thought we all were, Bulldog?!?!?

Seems like you are trying to stir the S*%# to me, since you have posted this at least a couple of times that I have seen.......

[STATION2]

Yeah. What Firenresq77 said.

Stay low and move it in.

[gilamonster]

PICS

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonascanner/lst?.dir=/Ladder+9&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/

This link is at Yahoo groups. ArizonaScanner.

Looks like the big unit is junk.

P.S. Tempe Fire just ordered a Bronto 118. Same setup.

Have fun , Be careful, and watch for flying fire trucks.

[Engine153]

Yes Larry, it would appear that you spoke too soon. The good news is no serious injuries. I gotta tell you though, I'm kinda with Bulldog on this on. You E-ONE guys (again, nothing wrong with that) were all over the Pierce crash site with pictures and thoughts of bad design. The juries still out, maybe never even convened, on the cause. I'll bet that the same thing will happen with this crash.
On the other post there was a mention of hitting a curb or possible driver error. Anything to that? Or was it a mechanical problem?
Larry, you are connected and this is close to your part of the world so, for the sake of educating us all, could you do some objective reporting and analysis? We can all learn something from this.
I couldn't see the photos on Yahoo, so could someone host or post them here? Thanks for your assistance!

[Bones42]

BY THE WAY I'LL TAKE A MACK CF ANY DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen Brother!

Did I miss an article or link on the FH.com main page? Haven't seen any mention of this accident here...

BC79er, my thoughts on the cab damage here vs the roll over lack of cab damage would only be that since the cab had separated, it only carried it's own weight and most likely slid quite a bit. This cab had 70,000+ lbs pushing it into something. I would assume (and of course know what that means) that much weight pushing would tend to cause a bit more damage. But again, only my speculation.

As in the roll over case, there is still way too much unknown for anyone to say there is a design flaw/failure in either case.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Bones: I went back and looked at the pictures since it had been a while. The cab is less than 10' from the chassis. If it had seperated early in the crash while the entire truck was still moving at a decent pace, the lesser friction of the cab against the ground would have caused it to slide farther. Based on the proximity to the rest of the vehicle, it did not seperate until late in the accident. The shape of the rest of the chassis will create more friction forces on the ground, which would have slowed the chassis down faster, regardless of the fact that it's heavier. Momentum only counts when the mass does not increase friction forces. The cab being much lighter and having smoother surfaces on which to slide, if it had seperated early in the crash and slid, it would have ended up more than 10' away from the chassis, and certainly would not have landed looking like it was just in a raised position. It is not far enough out of whack from it's normal position on the chassis to say that it seperated early. It still shouldn't have seperated, but it didn't happen until the last few seconds of the crash. So that will account for a lack of cab damage also. But still a low speed collision into a tree moved the roof that far at 10-15mph? They would have been seriously hurt or worse if they had been going faster. And no, I don't think it would have made a difference whose cab it was. Which is why I say these tests ought to be performed by everyone to make a better, safer design. Yes I was an engineering major so I've got the same number of physics classes as those that lauch rockets. Too many torque, trajectory, and momentum based work. I wish I could forget some of it so I could make room to remember what day it is....

Anyway, for those that have been pointing the finger and accusing some of bashing E-One while saying that no one bashed the Pierce, maybe you ought to look back at a few posts from the Pierce forum:

SnakeFD: There's a handyman special available in Fort Collins, Colorado.

CAPN22: I bet you could get this one for a song. Bring your dust pan to ensure you get all the parts.

SnakeFD: I wonder whose fault this will be. Of course it won't be Pierce's.

tripperff: Maybe Pierce was testing the "Escape Pod Theory" where the cab seperates from the frame in the hopes the crew is "thrown clear" of the wreckage. You know, like that thing the Space Shuttle is supposed to have?...oh...wait...that hasn't worked yet....nevermind

ff43065: In the scrapyeard. The ALL STEER misteriously vanished. Could it be an ALL STEER problem?

ff43065: Why does everyone keep dodging the issue of the All Steer causing this problem....Is there a chance this is another rear steer problem? I guess we will NEVER know as no property or personnel injury involved there would not have to be a formal investigation. We will only hear the Pierce side of the story.

I'm not posting that to start $hit, just end it, since some of you think that no bashing of Pierce went on in an attempt to stop the E-One bashing. I say stop bashing both. Some of you forget that when you point at someone the other 4 fingers point back at you. And no I really don't give a rat's butt whose name is on the truck I ride. It needs to be built with pride, quality, and with safety in mind. All manufacturers need to look at the outcomes of these accidents and research design changes. All manufacturers have similar tandem axle setups, so if that was the problem, it could be something that will happen to another tandem axle truck somewhere else, regardless of name. Hell it could even happen to a bus. Same with the cab damage. There's telephone and light poles all over the place that cabs could slide into. Someone ought to investigate crashes like this with concentrated forces in a small area. Ferrara's static weight test is nice, but the only thing that simulates is Godzilla copping a squat on your truck.

This wreck was not caused by poor design by E-One, or poor quality by E-One, until they figure out what really happened. Same as the Pierce wreck. Until someone figures out what happened, speculating the causes and sitting on these forums and using these wrecks as excuses not to buy a particular truck is a waste of all of our times. Why don't we spend the energy wasted here trying to figure out why we're still losing the same number of firefighters every year despite the major advances in PPE, tactics, training, and safety?

[MJ801FL]

Looking at the video, is that a bronto sky-lift?

Also, the area that tree came in, across the windshield, I would think thats the weakest link in ANY truck..