Wanted, Sample Spec's for new pumper

[bjlffire]

I am hoping someone will be able to share some bid spec's for a commercial pumper. We hope to start the process this fall and are looking for some examples on how you did it.

Need ideas for 2/4 door comercial truck, 750-1000 gallon, 1250-2000 pump.

This is for a small volly dept, needs to be simple to use and maintain.

Thanks
Brian

[N2DFire]

Re: Wanted, Sample Spec's for new pumper

Originally posted by bjlffire
This is for a small volly dept, needs to be simple to use and maintain.

Take a look at the Rattlesnake VFPD rig's - these have got to be some of the easiest to use rigs I have ever seen.

http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873
Check out the Photo Story & Pay special attention to the Page / Link titles "If we did it again". This is a straightforward no BS commentary of things they have had problems with and how they would remedy it if building a new truck from scratch.

Be forewarned (in advance ) that these rigs may be a little large overall for what you're looking for, but they have some great ideas that you can use.

[bjlffire]

Rattle Snakes and church/Fallon, both have great rigs.
We just can swing the 500,000 + for a truck.

We will try to incorporate some of there ideas. I like the donut
roll hose lay's.

[hazenfd]

The same Rat and Fal rigs were built last year in Grasshopper Valley MT, Marion VA, and Squaw Oregon with price tags of 135 to 200K.

Annaville rigs are 400K, and the three that finally work work really well.

Marion VA 75' quints were 408K each.

Lets look at how:

But a demo that is on the line make simple minor changes.

Ask for 1, 2, or 3 year old demos and modify them a tad.

Cancel the pump panel. Say use a fire research governor pressure gauge combo. Use wyes on the discharges or exterior removable valves thiefs etc, No pressure gauges, charge handles or drains. You just lost 90 controls and labels.

Add a few hose bed divered.

Tell them to keep the check valve on the tank to pump.

Cancel all the warning light and siren controls in the cab. You just need one on and off switch for each.

Add a pump and roll pump, if wanted mid ship or front mount.

Go make your dream bumper to bolt on their rig. Multiple preconnects, jaws reels and tooles etc. isn't that half the cool stuff on the big three?

Hydraulic generator is too expensive...so ask for four magnafire 12 volt lights that put out 650 watts of flood each and fix one four directions. Place in cab swithces labeled front, driver passenger and rear. At most $3000

Add a squirrel tail if you are rural 3 inch is ideal for most 4 inch a bit better. what 600 bucks?

If rural, Don't settle for the 750 or 1000 tank a 1250, 1500 or 1750 can be mounted on a base rig on just two axles. Might add $3000

If hose is more important have them raise the side walls, Bethoud CO did and carries 8000 feet of five inch per demo Ferrara pumper.

A water powered foam system no electricity or pumps needed like a robwin can be added to the attack lines for 4K

Have them plumb and wire the expensive stuff like a remote control guns, you add the gun later yourself for a lot less, Stang costs the less


same with Big water level lights, have them wire them you add four ford turn signals,

air hose or manual cord reels they plumb the stuff you want to last forever you finish them off with the cord and reels when you can afford it or get around to it. Four cord reels will allow you to match anyone flood light wise.

One 1000 watt hallide from a harware store plumbed by the dealer to your generator by the dealer will provide the same lighting as 4 of the best 1500 watt flood lights.

A 10 dollar homedepot light on the end of a 75 dollar cord reel with Lowes cord sure is less than the 250, 300 and 100 dollar jobs and is just a good.

Genisis sells a cutter, preader, two hoses, a duo pump for a mere 10K, TOTAL

Have them put a honda in cab starter for you, you add the generator later in the dunnage area next to where reels are normally carried, have them plumb the wire only, a trip to Sears and the genrator is yours, at least that is what those folks above did for rat, ann and fal abilities.

Want more ladders bolt them on. There is nothing wrong with a commercial chassis and base engine.

What is more people are dumping perfectly good newer pumpers just don't buy them from a dealer find who is getting new and ask. Hows this a 1997 with 55oo miles 1500 gpm 1500 tank two axle 4 door rig, gun, 6 precons, foam floods, 90K from the FD, or same thing with a 1000 pump cost, 14,000 miles 70K. Both were listed until they went off add with dealers for 175 and 120. heck it is only money, I ran down both FD and bought them.

How about a international year 2000

Small builder are more likely to allow you to do whatever you want to get your business, and the big guys can if they want to and have their dealers finish what they won't do.

Supeiror, the canadian E-one dealer will do front mounts, want a really short 1500 gpm pumper with 1500 water tank and a ton of hose four door cab, free pump and roll...and spend less than 200K? That is a real easy way and Darley can dothe same.

You think of the feature Fallon, Rattlesnake, Annaville, any of the really well tought out rigs has and I bet you the members of this board can tell you the simple low cost way of getting there.

This stuff isn't that hard.

[orangebuster]

That rattlesnake rig has to be the most inivating bomb I have had the pleasure of viewing for many many years. Someone has definitely done their homework.

Again, what was the price tag????



STILL STANDING!!!!!

[hazenfd]

Here is the front bumper Station2 was talking about.

http://www.geocities.com/annavillefd/

And the demos with 8000 foot 5 inch supply beds

http://www.berthoudfire.org/stations/apparatus.htm

[bjlffire]

Hopes become reality

Our hopes have become a reality, I was notified today of our award of a FIRE ACT grant for a New Pumper.

We will start the work as soon as our city council appoints a committe.

All of the posts are great.

Thanks
and keep them comming

Brian Fowler
New London Missouri Fire Dept.

[bjlffire]

hazenfd: Where can I find info on the others.



The same Rat and Fal rigs were built last year in Grasshopper Valley MT, Marion VA, and Squaw Oregon with price tags of 135 to 200K.

[DRA177]

bjl

If your dept. has 500k to drop on a new rig, why would you go commercial? You will more bang for your buck with a custom.

I've seen the Rat and Fal rigs in magazines. I think those trucks have a ton of "over specked" items that are doomed for failure as the trucks age. They seem to have more electric wires and pneumatic components than the space shuttles. I agree with some of the items and systems on those rigs, but theres over kill as well.



CaptD

[hazenfd]

Why would you go commercial? Could it be 350,000 of that chassis are built each year versus no more than 700 of any custom firefighting chassis? Possibly the one has more real world trial and error experience than the other by a factor of 400 to 1. Same engine, transmission, pump, bodies, etc as a custom. What else is there? Everyone at the shop has seen the Freightshakers before but never your custom job. Maybe it is because there are a ton of parts around? Can you buy brand new tires for $17 a piece on your custom job? They can, name brand too! things like windshields cost less. Do you have central tire inflation on your custom, is it even available like theirs? If pray tell you had to hit someone head on with your fire turck, true or false, someon will have to go through 7 feet fo engine before they get to the driver and officers feet and legs versus what 12 inches of tin bumper with a custom? There are what 48,000 emergency vehicle accidents in the US a year? In the end it is choice. Customs and commercials are all doing the job somewhere, their 400 ho motors are moving the rigs just fine.


You say they, "have a ton of "over specked" items that are doomed for failure as the trucks age." Tell us about them. For whatever it is worth, the Fal rigs have 65,000 to 128,000 miles on each, a mere 400,000 between them. When will they start falling apart? What item or items on their rigs are doomed for failure and why aren't they failing? We have guys who went to both FD's other than plastic bodies in Rat they are pretty happy. Fal is to.

You say. "They seem to have more electric wires and pneumatic components than the space shuttles." They are both plumbed (same builders)like their water systems, one 8/4 wire to each side of the rig that runs left or right floods and cord reels, I bet you have a circuit to each light and appliance on your rig, so wouldn't yours have a greater chance of failure? Pneumatic??? One air line to an reel and a Cafs system plumbed with pipe. So where is the failure going to occur there? You have more air lines on your brake system and air consditioning than they do, right?

You state, "theres over kill as well." It seems thier insurance ratings (better than any FD in your state Florida), both the best in their state, huge memberships crews of 7 to 10 per rig, total support of their taxpayers, much much lower fire taxes in their areas than most FD's in the counry by several magnatudes, absolutely butt simple apparatus, things like automatic electronic accountability systems that almost no one owns, in cab gps navigation and cvomputers, radio interfasce integration sytems to connect and combine any radio system any channel into a network, 100% standardization of a fleet, sprinkled stations, thermal imaging two or more per rig, new air packs and turnouts for everyone every five years, no more water supply problems, and a reason for what they are doing more than makes their case for what they do and how they do it doesn't it? So tell us about over kill.

Maybe you could tell us what department you are with so we can compare your apparatus feature for feature. Over or under kill for over or underkill or under spec'd and over spec'd item for item.

[FWDbuff]

Oh no, here we go again.......HI LARRY!!!!

DRA177- Now you've gone and done it.....You made fun of Larry's (WHOOPS!!!!) I mean errr....ahhhh.....HazenFD's pride and joy- the Churchill-Fallon Monster rigs! I strongly suspect that HazenFD is none other than LHS* himself, our old buddy Larry Stevens.....Dont argue with him. No matter what you say, no matter what you do....You will be wrong. Resistance is Futile!

HI LARRY! HOW ARE YA? WE MISSED YA! How's Fire-Rescue Magazine?? Ohhhhh I'm sorry.....Sore subject!

FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB

[bjlffire]

FWDbuff: What the hell was that all about!!

I am looking for information, Ideas and a way to get the best truck I can for the Grant we have been awarded.

We will be going commercial. but I have gotten alot of, what I think are good ideas from Rat and Fal.

Look at the preconnects, I think that is way better than crosslays where you have to climb the truck and takes 2 men to do it.

I know it will be a High dollar option, but come on the remote/cab control bumper guns are great. If I can pull up to a car fire and not have to drag hose or even get out of the cab, with somtimes only 2 men to start with, thats great.


Please, I hope this does not offend anyone.

But, again, I want to get the best, most efficeint, easy to use and durable truck I can for my $180,00.00.

Leave me some ideas and I can decide if they will work for me and my department.



Thank You

[NickSBFD6]

On the subject....

Brian,

If you check out www.ferrarafire.com they have specs you can print out for a commercial cab pumper. They are stripped down and very basic but you can print them out and have something to start with... Make sure you geralize the parts that seem manufactuer specific. And just so you have something to go by, I think that rig goes for around $110k.

-Nick

[DRA177]

Man, Haz nice "term paper" response. I was making a "general" statement about wiring, why? Because I have no clue as to how those trucks are wired nor do I care too. I was not bashing Churchill FD, but you came to their rescue anyway! I tip my hat to their organization for being proactive and having a community that supports them.

With that said lets get back to the trucks. Those trucks were clearly specked to help reduce the ISO rating, which is fine. Like having two hydraulic ladder racks per unit with X amount of feet of ladders. Now do you think they would ever come close to using a third of those at any one given time? Most likely they will not, ya..ya I know they have them if they need them. Would I like to have some of the components those trucks have on ours? Damn right I would, but our budget will not afford us those luxuries.

"Doomed for failure" I as talking about manitenance issue's especially with that many components. Churchill avg. 400 calls per year so with any luck they will not have such problems arrise, but things brake and they got allot of things.

You want to compare my dept. engines with Churchill's? What you be your point? There is no comparison not even close.

Oh..one more thing, ISO ratings don't put out fires! Out of the thousand's of departments nation wide theres only 40 with a one rating and three of those are in Florida.

CaptD

[hazenfd]

You say, "Those trucks were clearly specked to help reduce the ISO rating," light towers and flood lights don't count nor does the 2000 some odd feet of power cord, pump and roll pumps, at least 80% of ther loose equipment carried, the 10 man cabs don't get ISO credit or the 12 spare bottles, CAFS, all those pike poles, all the master streams, extrication gear, foam nozzles, the triple foam systems and four foam tanks, imagers, accountability system, moving map, computers, etc Doesn't seem so clearly, care to expand on the post?

Nor does, "having two hydraulic ladder racks per unit with X amount of feet of ladders." The racks pack a lot more that the ISO requirement, so are they clearly spec'd to another criteria. Like maybe need.
"Now do you think they would ever come close to using a third of those at any one given time?" I don't know, Apparently they have and do. Does anyone else carry extra ground ladders over ISO or NFPA? Yes do they use them? NFPA ground ladder standardfs have become a joke. Every rig in Boston, LA, Chicago and many more places carry more ladders, if anything seems like a more practical version of what Chicago does, two 1 story, two 2 story and 3 three story ladders per rig and a good selection of roof ladders.

You state, "ISO ratings don't put out fires!"
Maybe not, but the better the grade the lower the loss according to the insurance industries own data:
Loss per $1000 valuation
Class Commercial Residential Class Commercial Residential
1 $0.25 $0.37 6 $0.45 $0.55
2 $0.30 $0.37 7 $0.55 $0.75
3 $0.35 $0.42 8 $0.60 $0.78
4 $0.37 $0.45 9 $0.68 $0.79
5 $0.38 $0.49 10 $0.85 $1.10
Seems pretty clear, 90 years worth of data from every community seems to indicate a much lower rate of fire loss, doesn't it?

Out of thousand's of departments nation wide theres only 40 with a one rating and three of those are in Florida.
Three in the U.S. are volunteer, seems that is harder to achieve than with a paid outfit.

Back to the main topic,
Here's a start, 1500 gpm top mount pumper, 4 door diesel automatic, high sides, 24'/14' 5 SCBA seats, front suction, 1000 feet 5 inch bed, 6000 miles on it, traded in on fleet replacement, front bumper 1 ¾ precon, two crosslays and a booster. Easily simplified to incorporate rat or fal or anna i1deas. available for $110,000

Simply contact the dealer or favorite fire turck shop and with the 60K you have left:
Fully equip the rig.
Then have the dealer modify the truck, like: Cancel the pump panel. Say use a fire research governor pressure gauge combo. Use wyes on the discharges or exterior removable valves thiefs etc, No pressure gauges, charge handles or drains. You just lost 90 controls and labels.

Add a few hose bed diverers and or increase the hose bed volume..

Tell them to remove the check valve on the tank to pump.

Cancel all the warning light and siren controls in the cab. You just need one on and off switch for each.

Go make your dream bumper, it is 24 inch extended, Multiple preconnects, jaws reels and tooles etc. isn't that half the cool stuff on the big three?

Hydraulic generator is too expensive...so ask for four magnafire 12 volt lights that put out 650 watts of flood each and fix one four directions. Place in cab swithces labeled front, driver passenger and rear. At most $3000

Add a squirrel tail if you are rural 3 inch is ideal for most 4 inch a bit better. what 600 bucks?

A water powered foam system no electricity or pumps needed like a robwin can be added to the attack lines for 4K

Have them plumb and wire the expensive stuff like a remote control guns, you add the gun later yourself for a lot less, Stang costs the less

same with Big water level lights, have them wire them you add four ford turn signals,

air hose or manual cord reels they plumb the stuff you want to last forever you finish them off with the cord and reels when you can afford it or get around to it. Four cord reels will allow you to match anyone flood light wise.

One 1000 watt hallide from a harware store plumbed by the dealer to your generator by the dealer will provide the same lighting as 4 of the best 1500 watt flood lights.

A 10 dollar homedepot light on the end of a 75 dollar cord reel with Lowes cord sure is less than the 250, 300 and 100 dollar jobs and is just a good.

Genisis sells a cutter, preader, two hoses, a duo pump for a mere 10K, TOTAL

Have them put a honda in cab starter for you, you add the generator later in the dunnage area next to where reels are normally carried, have them plumb the wire only, a trip to Sears and the genrator is yours, at least that is what those folks above did for rat, ann and fal abilities.

That is what Squaw, Kingston and Grasshopper did with their grants last year, this year they have new lower ISO ratings.
Odds are you'd and the community would be better served with a fully equipped simple rig than a brand new one that is stripped and complex.