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Pumper tender design ideas

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  • Pumper tender design ideas

    Has anyone designed a pumper tender with some new ideas or accessories, or even some old standard ideas that worked well?

    My volly department is considering applying for a grant for a pumper tender. We have some basic ideas, a custom cab with seating for up to 6, 2000 gpm pump, 2000 gallon tank, front bumper crosslays, possibly a bumper mounted deck gun, perhaps a top mounted one too, 50? gallon foam tank, generator, on board scene lighting, dumping to both sides and rear. Because it would potentially run as an engine we would need all NFPA/ISO required engine equipment.

    We are brainstorming right now and are very open to any and all ideas to make this an awesome rig.

    Thanks!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  • #2
    My biggest concern with tankers is they have a tendency to turn into monstrosities and need a 40 acre field to turn around in.... Our tanker is a commercial cab Kenworth, seats 2, 3000 gallons of water and a walk through panel. Measures over 38'. Town next to us has a 6 seater custom cab, 2600 gallons of water and it's a bit longer than ours- AND it has a side mount panel.

    Where I'm from in IN, 38' is nothing. Here in NH, though, it's getting to be on the long side. We've had to replace rear corner trim before due to departure angles. If you have any hills and tight spots in your area or M/A areas, definitely keep that in mind.

    Big foam tank is good. I would add a backup camera, remotely controlled dump valves, and a light tower if you can. I've seen pictures somewhere of front bumper lays that have drop down doors on the ends that make repacking easier. Either a front or rear suction (or both) would be a definite want for me. For sure, spec master intake valves on the steamers, makes life easier in the long run in a drafting situation. Unless you are trying to get it all on a single axle, go as big as you can on the water tank. There's a few tankers in our M/A that run the 2600 gallon tank; ladder storage is cut into the tank. Depending on the tank layout, you may want to have 2 tank-to-pump inlets; ours has 2 sumps built into the tank and has 2 t-t-p inlets because of it. Makes it easier to get most of the water out of the tank if sitting on a hill....

    Comment


    • #3
      I will fight the battle on tank size with our members but for our community size, streets, and access to water, I believe 2000 gallons is big enough. Many of our neighbors run 3000 or greater tenders and I guess my attitude is if all it is ever going to do is haul water then fine, but ours would run as an engine probably far more than a tender. Further 2000 gallons would be an increase over our current 1500 pumper tender. We also have a space issue both height and length in out current station that doesn't allow a super tender.

      The custom cab comes in because we want to carry, when it runs as an engine, 4 to 6 firefighters. If we went with a short cab we could easily carry 4 or 5. The custom cab would be shorter than a commercial cab.

      I am a big advocate of back up cameras having specced them on 2 vehicles on my last department, and having one in my personal vehicle. Remote control dumps are also a good idea. Light towers are nice but add quite a lot to the cost. Our last engine has 4 - 1500 watt extenda lights and a 1500 watt eyebrow light. Not saying no, but cost would be a factor for a tower, as well as how much it increased the height of the vehicle. Our current engine has 2 full bumper width 2 inch crosslays that hold 200 feet each. We like this set up very much. It is easy to deploy and even easier to reload. We would do a rear suction as we have made that our standard. Our rear intake has internal valving, but we have done on the side panel steamers is use a butterfly valve on one side and a gated intake relief valve on the other. Are the internal vales a better set up? I believe our current engine has a 4 inch pump to tank valve.

      Thanks for the ideas! I appreciate it.

      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #4
        We are doing basically what you are doing right now...

        I would go with pump integrated MIV valves with primer set up to prime outside of the MIV. We have that on two engines (2006 and 2013) and it works slick! They are pricey but you do not pay for external MIV valves so that helps. You can have multiple sources and prime up to the MIV, with it being controlled from panel you can then open MIV and not miss a beat. So you can be on tank water and be setting up and then prime your chosen intake and switch over. I know that HME has a primer selector valve and Trident Air Primers has a 4 position setup that can be used to achieve the same result.

        Measure your station and see what will fit. 2000-2500 tanker will be about 16-18 inches shorter than a 3000 gallon. Side mount you are looking about 36'-37' for a top mount... ??

        Look at the delivery pages of various manufacturers and look to see if they have drawings with the dimensions of the truck they built. It will give you some ideas on what you are looking at for size etc.

        I would also seriously look at more LED lights and not go with light tower. We put on on our last Rescue Engine but the new LED lights are more than enough most of the time... Brow light, 6 scene lights, (3) each side of truck and Spectra on a pole in rear and it lights up big area without putting the tower up.

        Good luck... hopefully this thread creates some discussion that will give us some ideas too!
        Last edited by ChiefDog; 09-06-2017, 08:39 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hey FyredUp,

          Here are just a few of my thoughts based on what we have done.
          1. Go with a 3-way dump chute off of the rear. We spec'd our tender with 3 remote dumps and honestly we rarely ever use them and they take up compartment space.
          2. I am not a fan of a Master Stream on the bumper. I think a remote controlled gun above the pump is best.
          3. Our latest purchase included preconnects in trays in the front bumper. While a departure from the norm, it is easy to reload and makes good use of the space.
          4. Ensure you spec at least 1 - 4" outlet for relay pumping.
          5. I think you are smart to go for 2000 gal. if there are plenty of other mutual aid tenders nearby.
          6. LED lighting all the way around and eliminate the need for a generator or at the least, reduce the size and cost of the one you need. Be vigilant in assessing your power needs.
          7. I like the MIV valves, but if one quits....you are done.

          Good Luck!
          I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

          Comment


          • #6
            Okay, liking the idea of MIVs with prime outside the valve. Same with the LED lights, but I will say you have to spend the money to get good LED lights. There is a difference as our neighbors found out when they cheaped out on lighting. I'm not sure i would go with all 12 volt LEDS though.

            I like the remote controlled 3 way dump off the back idea for saving compartment space.

            The bumper turret is something I have utilized as a former crash fire rescue firefighter and i have seen several on the front of pumper tenders. I looked at it as a way for an operator to make a quick hit from a better level than up top. Admittedly there are times when a top mount master stream is too high to make a good attack. We have had an engine with front crosslays since 2005 and i doubt we will ever buy new again where that isn't included. Our current 2000 gpm engine has a 4 inch outlet, adapted to 5 inch storz for relay pumping. On the 2000 gallon tank size it comes from 3 directions, 1) Space in the station, 2) Running as an engine this wouldn't be too big to get into places, 3) Our own limited rural area and need for a tender especially when our neighbors have larger tenders if we need them.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • #7
              Our engine/tanker is a '12 Pierce Impel with a 6 man cab. We REALLY like it, and it's the first due piece mutual aid with several departments.
              Ours has a 1500 gpm pump with a side panel, 2500 gallon tank, extend-a-gun deck gun, 25 gal. class A foam tank, and carries 1,100' of 5", and 300' each of 3" and 2 1/2" on the rear hose bed. It also has two 1 3/4" crosslays, and a 1 1/2" line in the bumper, with a bumper mounted 6" suction intake swivel, and 6' hard suction and low level strainer mounted. It has all the ISO equipment for an engine, and has high side compartments on the drivers' side, and 3/4 high compartments on the officers' side. There's a 10" square Newton dump on each side on the rear, plus one in the back. This is of course on a tandem axle, actually a ladder chassis. As far as turn radius, it turns MUCH tighter than our International/Grumman single axle commercial cab. It's all in what turning radius that you spec. We spec'd additional park brakes for the front axle if it's parked on a hill, and a transaxle lock for going up hills on gravel roads for traction, with automatic ice chains.
              What we would change is to have the ladder go through the tank, instead of the dump tank. We'd put that out on the officers' side with the drop down rack like the ladder is on now. And you can spec longer hard suction than the standard 10'. we could've had 14-15' sections, giving us more range. Our truck is tall, but since we don't lay supply line often, it's not much of a problem. There's generally plenty of manpower on fires where we do lay it.
              I wouldn't bother with a bumper mounted deck gun, too much plumbing, and with an extend-a-gun, you have reach 360 degrees. Depending on your needs, you can put A and B foam tanks in the main tank. Also make sure you have TWO tank to pump lines so you can maximize your deck gun from the tank if needed. Pierce does this standard, other may also but be sure to check. We also had some grab bars added to make it easier to access the deck gun. Anymore LED lighting is a given. We have a hydraulic generator so that gives you options on where your generator is located. We also carry a fan and a Turbodraft device. With full compartmentalization, we could also add a combo tool and some cribbing if our Engine/rescue were to be out of service if need be. With a truck this big, the fill tower is located on one side of the tank, in the middle so water doesn't slosh out. This leaves a space in the hose bed towards the front that we use to carry some extra buckets of foam since it's not convenient for hose. I'm not a fan of light towers on pumpers because that takes up a lot of real estate, our side floods do a great job.
              Hope this helps.

              Comment


              • #8
                I would look at what options you have on the dumps. Some designs have side dumps in the wheelwell area so you may lose a bottle compartment but gain more in the rear compared to the triple dumps. You don't impact your normal compartment areas. With a tandem you still can have 6-8 bottles worth of storage and keep the rear area free for other things.

                But first and foremost, do what works for your department with some "borrowed" ideas from others...
                Last edited by ChiefDog; 09-06-2017, 02:49 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by johnsb View Post
                  Our engine/tanker is a '12 Pierce Impel with a 6 man cab. We REALLY like it, and it's the first due piece mutual aid with several departments.
                  Ours has a 1500 gpm pump with a side panel, 2500 gallon tank, extend-a-gun deck gun, 25 gal. class A foam tank, and carries 1,100' of 5", and 300' each of 3" and 2 1/2" on the rear hose bed. It also has two 1 3/4" crosslays, and a 1 1/2" line in the bumper, with a bumper mounted 6" suction intake swivel, and 6' hard suction and low level strainer mounted. We will not do a front suction for 2 reasons: 1) Loss of capacity due to the number of elbows in the piping 2) It really doesn't fit into the way we operate. When we draft we most often pull in so the front bumper tray is towards the fire leaving the rear of the rig for a folding tank to be set up to utilize our rear suction. It has all the ISO equipment for an engine, and has high side compartments on the drivers' side, and 3/4 high compartments on the officers' side. There's a 10" square Newton dump on each side on the rear, plus one in the back.I would prefer a triple dump on the rear but we are open to options here depending on how it affects compartment space. This is of course on a tandem axle, actually a ladder chassis. As far as turn radius, it turns MUCH tighter than our International/Grumman single axle commercial cab. One of the reasons we want a custom cab. It's all in what turning radius that you spec. We spec'd additional park brakes for the front axle if it's parked on a hill, and a transaxle lock for going up hills on gravel roads for traction, with automatic ice chains.
                  What we would change is to have the ladder go through the tank, instead of the dump tank. We'd put that out on the officers' side with the drop down rack like the ladder is on now. And you can spec longer hard suction than the standard 10'. we could've had 14-15' sections, giving us more range. Our truck is tall, but since we don't lay supply line often, it's not much of a problem. There's generally plenty of manpower on fires where we do lay it. We will probably go high side compartments both sides so the ladders and folding tank will have to creatively located. Perhaps an overhead ladder rack like our engine and a through the tank for the folding tank.

                  I wouldn't bother with a bumper mounted deck gun, too much plumbing, Please explain how there would be more plumbing for a bumper turret than for front crosslays? and with an extend-a-gun, you have reach 360 degrees. Depending on your needs, you can put A and B foam tanks in the main tank. We don't use separate foams, we use Fireade 2000 where all we have to do is change the percentage. Also make sure you have TWO tank to pump lines so you can maximize your deck gun from the tank if needed. Pierce does this standard, other may also but be sure to check. Is it two 4 inch lines or 2 three inch lines? Our current engine has a 4 inch tank to pump line. We also had some grab bars added to make it easier to access the deck gun. Anymore LED lighting is a given. We have a hydraulic generator so that gives you options on where your generator is located. I like the LED lights and our current engine has a 10kW hydraulic generator.

                  We also carry a fan and a Turbodraft device. With full compartmentalization, we could also add a combo tool and some cribbing if our Engine/rescue were to be out of service if need be. With a truck this big, the fill tower is located on one side of the tank, in the middle so water doesn't slosh out. This leaves a space in the hose bed towards the front that we use to carry some extra buckets of foam since it's not convenient for hose. I'm not a fan of light towers on pumpers because that takes up a lot of real estate, our side floods do a great job.
                  Hope this helps.
                  This would run as an engine in hydranted areas so it would have to have full engine capabilities and we pretty much run with a compliment of truck company tools and extrication equipment.

                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ChiefDog View Post
                    I would look at what options you have on the dumps. Some designs have side dumps in the wheelwell area so you may lose a bottle compartment but gain more in the rear compared to the triple dumps. You don't impact your normal compartment areas. With a tandem you still can have 6-8 bottles worth of storage and keep the rear area free for other things.

                    But first and foremost, do what works for your department with some "borrowed" ideas from others...
                    I like your ideas and you gave me something to think about with compartment utilization and bottle storage.

                    I have gotten some great ideas and thought provokers so far. I am hoping for many more!
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What do chicken tenders have to do with anything?
                      "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by FWDbuff View Post
                        What do chicken tenders have to do with anything?
                        Dude, you are so OLD!! Get with the times!! LOL
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          as John said , two tank to pump lines and I like the idea of one in each end to maximize your water if you have some hilly ground
                          ?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A deck gun in the bumper is a bigger line to run, along with an intake. We just have a 1 1/2" line, so it's not like it will hurt the flow there. Our normal procedure is for the engine/tankers to be second out, putting our rescue/engine up by the house. The engine tanker can back in the drive and set up the dump tank at the end of the drive allowing easy access for a tanker shuttle. Of course we can also draft off of the side if drafting from a water source, or a second tank. We also have TONS of room on this truck, you could probably do what you want without high sides on both sides. And also spec air primers. As for a single 4" tank to pump line, you'd have to ask the manufacturer what the difference in flow rates will be, I don't have that info. Ours will handle 800 gpm.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a20X8ixh-Po

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by johnsb View Post
                              A deck gun in the bumper is a bigger line to run, along with an intake. We just have a 1 1/2" line, so it's not like it will hurt the flow there. Our normal procedure is for the engine/tankers to be second out, putting our rescue/engine up by the house. The engine tanker can back in the drive and set up the dump tank at the end of the drive allowing easy access for a tanker shuttle. Of course we can also draft off of the side if drafting from a water source, or a second tank. We also have TONS of room on this truck, you could probably do what you want without high sides on both sides. And also spec air primers. As for a single 4" tank to pump line, you'd have to ask the manufacturer what the difference in flow rates will be, I don't have that info. Ours will handle 800 gpm.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a20X8ixh-Po
                              We would not do a front intake as that does not fit our operations and we aren't willing to give up flow for the "convenience" of a front intake. We have full width crosslays for 2-200 foot 2 inch lines in our front bumper.

                              We thought we would have more than enough room on our rescue pumper with full depth full height compartments on both sides and we have run out of room. So we would appreciate the same set up on this rig. We do not run a separate rescue truck or ladder truck so we need more room than a normal engine company.

                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment

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