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  • Writing Ladder Specs-Looking for Input

    Our rig committee has switched from looking into a Snozzle to an aerial (75 to 78' range). Looking at single rear axle side stacker style hosebed 1500 GPM pump 500 tank aerial to be used as first out "quint" type rig.

    I am creating a spec document to hopefully put out to bid. I have no real issues writing the language for the sections on the cab, chassis, electrical, generator and pump, as I did alot of research for our 2007 project. Where I am looking for some insight is in the aerial section.

    We are looking at E-One HP78. The guys like it. I'd like to see at least one other vendor be able to compete on this job. That being said, I am trying to create a document that accomodates this.

    I will probably come back to this thread with questions as they come to mind but here are a few.

    Generator. With new LEDS putting out 14 to 15k lumens, gonna spec brow and side facing as LED Pioneer or FRC and do 1000W tripods. By reducing floodlight requirements on the gen, I'm thinking of downgrading from a 10 to an 8 or maybe even a 6kw Hydraulic gen. Also, any opinions on hydraulic gens. We have harrison, and no issues to speak of. Electric load would be two 1000W tripods, two 750w portables, 2000w fan. This adds up to about 6000W. I think we would be ok with 8Kw but is that cutting it close?

    What to put at the tip.

    -Floodlight options are mounted to the sides ot the new under aerial light from FRC. Opinions on one versus the other? I would lean more to the under aerial light being placed farther back so that the sides of the tip are more clear to get up against stuff. Thinking LED versus 120V as well.
    -Electric on the tip. Is there any point to having an electric outlet on the tip. I dont think we have ever used the one on our firestix boom.
    -Aerial controls at tip. Ive seen "creeper controls" at aerial tips. Are these just a gadget or worth it?
    -RF controlled monitor. Is this a gimmick or worth the extra money?

    Are there any things on an aerial of this size you like/recommend? I am open to all feedback on any part of the rig. I have written specs and sat on apparatus committees before (just not for an aerial), so shoot me the tech talk version please.

    Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    Mike, I sent you by e-mail the only two ladder specs that I have in my collection. Neither of them are aluminum ladders, but I'm sure there will be some useful info in them after you wade through all the gobooldygook. Good luck!

    Comment


    • #3
      My advise for FWIW, DON'T skimp on the Generator. Unless all your fans and such are Gas powered. There are quite a few builders that can build what you're looking at. Smeal and Ferrara are two with better Horizontal reach. Do you want a pinnable or fixed ladder pipe? How much storage? All of these items are somewhat cookie cutter by design but some can be tweaked.With the Remote controls and such,try to get a Demonstrator with them on it.Then you can answer you own questions. Remotes are handy if you run with "short" crews. If you have plenty of help,this MAY not be an issue. T.C.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'll throw out a concept since you're already thinking about LEDs saving on electric usage.

        For your remote scene lights look at a battery operated LED tripods. Such at FoxFury Nomad http://www.foxfury.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=5
        Run around $1000 ea. Streamlight, Pelican and others have similar items. Longer life/reduce operating cost. And give some additional flexibility beyond being tethered to the truck. And eliminates the cost and space (expensive) of cord reels.

        Use a gas PFV.

        You're going to have no choice but to buy a 400amp +/- alternator. For what? Use it with a inverter if you need some limited 120V.

        Eliminate the on board genset, breaker box, outlets, AC wiring reels, etc. save some very large $ while leaving more compartment space.

        Comment


        • #5
          I will try and get you some pics of our 1996 E-One HP75...the tip has some goodies on it, like the quartz light, air hook up, ladder controls, and I THINK, electric, might be wrong on that.

          Just a thought - especially here in the NE, it might be prudent to not go with ALL LED, utility lights or emergency lighting..they just don't generate the heat to keep ice and snow build up off of them. This drastically cuts down on the light output.

          I will say this...as much as I love our truck, it has it's pitfalls...generally speaking..it is too small. Not the ladder or truck per se, but small things like the cab, the rear jump seats area is a JOKE if you have 2 guys in each side...the ladder to the turntable is too narrow..but then again, I am a big guy...truckie sized,..LOL
          FTM - BTB - KTF

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
            My advise for FWIW, DON'T skimp on the Generator. T.C.
            I agree with TC. My rule of thumb is: Figure out how many kW you need right now and go up one size. It will cost you an extra 2-3k up front, but trust me; there will be times down the road when you'll need it.

            C6

            Comment


            • #7
              For a 75 foot rear mount you can write the specs for aluminum and get E-One and Pierce to bid. Beware though, I'm hearing lately that Pierce is sometimes getting very competitive with E-One on pricing. Heck, if you don't stipulate a rear mount then Sutphen will be in there with a hell of a stick in the SL75.
              "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by npfd801 View Post
                For a 75 foot rear mount you can write the specs for aluminum and get E-One and Pierce to bid. Beware though, I'm hearing lately that Pierce is sometimes getting very competitive with E-One on pricing. Heck, if you don't stipulate a rear mount then Sutphen will be in there with a hell of a stick in the SL75.
                I meant to mention Sutphen too in my last post. Talking to my current Chief, he was involved in spec'ing our current ladder...he was leaning towards Suthen's mid mount 65 foot stick, but the local dealer would not negotiate on price, then pulled some stuff and ended up dropping his price by 30k..after he lied to the committee, they said forget you...
                FTM - BTB - KTF

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by neiowa View Post
                  I'll throw out a concept since you're already thinking about LEDs saving on electric usage.

                  For your remote scene lights look at a battery operated LED tripods. Such at FoxFury Nomad http://www.foxfury.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=5
                  Run around $1000 ea. Streamlight, Pelican and others have similar items. Longer life/reduce operating cost. And give some additional flexibility beyond being tethered to the truck. And eliminates the cost and space (expensive) of cord reels.

                  Use a gas PFV.

                  You're going to have no choice but to buy a 400amp +/- alternator. For what? Use it with a inverter if you need some limited 120V.

                  Eliminate the on board genset, breaker box, outlets, AC wiring reels, etc. save some very large $ while leaving more compartment space.
                  Within the two depts I serve we have over 20 rigs,ONE with an inverter. And it will be the LAST with an inverter. Quite possibly, the WORST and most expensive way for an FD to make 120 power. Buy a DECENT hyd Genset, sized CORRECTLY,and be happy for the rest of Time. Or buy an inverter,in a couple years replace the burned out inverter,and again, until the end of service life. In MY experience most outfits DO NOT operate a inverter correctly which leads to early and multiple failures. Along with accelerated alternator and battery replacements. T.C.
                  Last edited by Rescue101; 03-20-2011, 10:38 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    We specced our quint with 2 500 watt floods at the tip, and they're removable. RD Murray built us brackets to hold them, along with outlets. I believe they are controlled at the pump panel and pedestal. We used regular fold down square cordlights. They're mounted far enough back that they don't interfere TOO much with tip placement. We normally run with them tipped down to protect them from the NUMEROUS tree branches in our district. They work pretty well- esp for roof ops! (no such thing as too much light up there on a night scene!)

                    We also got an air system. IMO, the usefulness of that option on a strait stick is pretty limited. Not to mention the extra hardware you'll require to make it compatible with your SCBA's. I don't even want to think about the logistics involved with changing the big bottle... We got the ladder pre piped with remote electric controls, so there's no real reason for anyone to be up there for a long duration in the smoke.

                    As far as outlets, I guess that depends on your SOP's. Do you anticipate needing to extend an electric tool off the aerial? Of course, if you have floods put up there, this is a moot point- the electric is run anyway... I tend to think of this option like I would a hose outlet: as soon as you use it, the aerial is "locked" in place. Plus, you need to carry the cord and tool up there, or store it on the stick. You might just as well run a cord in a window or up the fire escape, and save the stick for rescue or access. Then again, it may just come in handy some day- to light up a room for a fire investigator, run a fan or tool in an area that's out of reach of your cord reels due to interior layout, etc.

                    A diamond plate box is on one side of the base section as well, for pigtails, rope bags, stokes, etc. The other side sports a roof ladder.

                    I personally dislike gas PPV fans. Doesn't it defeat the purpose, if you're pumping gasoline exhaust INTO the structure??

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      NozzleNut.. I echo R101 and Command's advice. the hydraulic generator is the way to go. Our last 4 rigs have hydraulic generators.

                      I personally dislike gas PPV fans. Doesn't it defeat the purpose, if you're pumping gasoline exhaust INTO the structure??
                      Considering that you are replacing massive amounts of smoke and CO with fresh air and a minute amount of CO, which is dissipated by the air movement through the PPV's fan blades, it's tradeoff I gladly accept!
                      Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 10-26-2011, 06:49 AM.
                      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
                        NozzleNut.. I echorR101 and Command's advice. the hydraulic generator is the way to go. Our last 4 rigs have hydraulic generators.



                        Considering that you are replacing massive amounts of smoke and CO with fresh air and a minute amount of CO, which is dissipated by the air movement through the PPV's fan blades, it's tradeoff I gladly accept!
                        Me being me,I'd have TWO (2) Big ELECTIC's(PPV) AND a Gas powered . We get called frequently to air out buildings with High CO,no visible smoke. Our testing has proven that "pocket" CO can actually INCREASE with the Gas driven fan. Not so with the Electrics. There is a place for both. But if you are gonna run BIG electrics,you better have some generator(big) on board. If I want to move MASS quantities of smoke and CO there's always the Airboat. T.C.
                        Last edited by Rescue101; 03-20-2011, 05:23 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
                          NozzleNut.. I echorR101 and Command's advice. the hydraulic generator is the way to go. Our last 4 rigs have hydraulic generators.



                          Considering that you are replacing massive amounts of smoke and CO with fresh air and a minute amount of CO, which is dissipated by the air movement through the PPV's fan blades, it's tradeoff I gladly accept!
                          Chief,

                          I've seen increases in CO with use of Gas PPV. We have switched most of our PPV fans to electric.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
                            We specced our quint with 2 500 watt floods at the tip, and they're removable. RD Murray built us brackets to hold them, along with outlets. I believe they are controlled at the pump panel and pedestal. We used regular fold down square cordlights. They're mounted far enough back that they don't interfere TOO much with tip placement. We normally run with them tipped down to protect them from the NUMEROUS tree branches in our district. They work pretty well- esp for roof ops! (no such thing as too much light up there on a night scene!)

                            We also got an air system. IMO, the usefulness of that option on a strait stick is pretty limited. Not to mention the extra hardware you'll require to make it compatible with your SCBA's. I don't even want to think about the logistics involved with changing the big bottle... We got the ladder pre piped with remote electric controls, so there's no real reason for anyone to be up there for a long duration in the smoke.

                            As far as outlets, I guess that depends on your SOP's. Do you anticipate needing to extend an electric tool off the aerial? Of course, if you have floods put up there, this is a moot point- the electric is run anyway... I tend to think of this option like I would a hose outlet: as soon as you use it, the aerial is "locked" in place. Plus, you need to carry the cord and tool up there, or store it on the stick. You might just as well run a cord in a window or up the fire escape, and save the stick for rescue or access. Then again, it may just come in handy some day- to light up a room for a fire investigator, run a fan or tool in an area that's out of reach of your cord reels due to interior layout, etc.

                            A diamond plate box is on one side of the base section as well, for pigtails, rope bags, stokes, etc. The other side sports a roof ladder.

                            I personally dislike gas PPV fans. Doesn't it defeat the purpose, if you're pumping gasoline exhaust INTO the structure??
                            Our gas PPV fans have exhaust hoses so no exhaust is drawn into the air stream

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                              If I want to move MASS quantities of smoke and CO there's always the Airboat. T.C.
                              Now THAT I want to see!

                              I'm a big proponent of large generators. Esp on truck companies! I appologize if I didn't make that clear in my earlier post. Currently, we use a combo of diesel and gas units- 10kw on the quint, for example. I'm also a fan of the hydraulic generator- it's quiet, can be located in out of the way places- saving compt space, and works well on units with pumps or other compnents that require varying engine speeds. They're easy to make "hot shift" too.

                              Obviously, they only work when the engine is running. Tucking the generator away in an out of the way place can make it a PITA to service, driving up maintenance costs.

                              Diesel gens are large and bulky, not to mention heavy. they need access to fresh air and a place to vent exhaust and dissipate heat. This means either giving up a large compartment, or placing it up top. They also tap into your main fuel supply, which may be a concern on long duration calls. They represent another engine that needs preventative maintenance and repair, and, Lastly, they generate large amounts of noise!

                              On the plus side, they are totally independant of other vehicle systems, and are quite reliable. Their placement also means they are easier to work on or service. A simple starter control and an "on" light can be mounted in the cab, so it can be started enroute and ready to go as you pull up. A diesel gen will work with the main engine shut off, too.

                              PTO gens generally require a certain range of RPM's to work correctly. This can interfere with, or be nullified by, pump operations, or a high idle setting for the stick. Mounting location is the least flexible of the three, as the device is powered by a shaft driven by the engine.

                              These units are also very reliable, and come in a wide range of capacities.

                              A "hot shift" arrangement ( ie, shift on the fly) can be specced for PTO and Hydraulic gens, but it might cost more. Worth it imo.

                              Anyhow, I'd echo the other's comments: Don't skimp on the generator. Many truck co functions require electric power- not just lighting. A big alternator and inverter might be fine for a medic vehicle or even a pumper or tanker, but on a truck company or rescue, you will need plenty of juice!

                              I'd also look for the widest ladder sections. It makes using it much easier. Truckie- sized members, stokes baskets, and bringing bulky tools like a saw to the roof need the extra room! E-One is a good choice for this- it's one of their claims to fame. Other makes can accomodate this too. Smeal/Ferrara and KME also offer models with nice, wide fly sections. Our Quint has an Aerial Innovations stick, and we specifically asked for wide fly sections. We have NOT been sorry. It's just so much more user friendly.

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