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  • #16
    D --- All Of The Above

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Command6 View Post
      10-year pumper: $375,000.00

      20-year pumper: 475,000.00

      The 10-year pumper we purchased in 1994 is still in front line service with over 100,000 miles. A lot of the bean counters can remember to the penny how much that truck cost, but they seem to have amnesia about the 10-year part of the conversation.

      C6
      That amnesia thing you speak of is WAY more common than you might think,hehe T.C.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by don120 View Post
        NO it's just because bigger is better...didn't you know that....

        I've just retired after 32 years..90-95% of the fires I went to were put out with less than 100 gallons out water.

        Why so many are building trucks for that 1 in lifetime fire, god only knows.
        Because that once in a lifetime fire that you're not prepared for could be that once in a lifetime law suit you don't want.

        Being in the military we understand the value of being prepared for the unlikely. Having the mentality of better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Of course, I had this mentality before being a Marine or even being a firefighter. I grew up with this mentality tromping around up in the mountains of North Georgia. You don't want to get stuck out overnight unprepared, smae concept.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
          Because that once in a lifetime fire that you're not prepared for could be that once in a lifetime law suit you don't want.
          You are going to get sued because your first out engine didn't have some axillary piece of equipment? Interesting.

          I'm all for being prepared, but I'd rather have a piece that functions well 99% of the time and might come up short 1% of the time. Than have a truck built for the 1%, but isn't built well for all the other stuff I do.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by nameless View Post
            You are going to get sued because your first out engine didn't have some axillary piece of equipment? Interesting.

            I'm all for being prepared, but I'd rather have a piece that functions well 99% of the time and might come up short 1% of the time. Than have a truck built for the 1%, but isn't built well for all the other stuff I do.
            Have to agree with nameless on this one. Outside of pure injustice, you carry no liability to your capabilities.

            At one point in time, pumpers never carried any kind of EMS/BLS equipment. For the most part, most do now. Same with extrication equipment that were put on the trucks/aerials only. Now they do.

            There is also a trickle down effect, if you will. While the trucks/aerials are getting loaded down with more equipment and tools, they also need to shed some of their work load and tools down to the pumpers.
            Going back to extrication, we used to send to a MVA with entrapment, a Med Unit, Engine, Truck, and a Rescue. Today, we send the aforementioned, minus the Truck. It saves on manpower, and frees up the truck for a worker, where it is needed most.

            @ firefightinirish217... unless you are ForceRecon, you learn to do more with less. Just saying.

            FM1
            I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

            Originally posted by EastKyFF
            "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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            • #21
              My military analogy of fire operations has always been this:

              The engine company is the infantry.

              The ladder company is cavalry.

              C6

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              • #22
                Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
                Have to agree with nameless on this one. Outside of pure injustice, you carry no liability to your capabilities.

                At one point in time, pumpers never carried any kind of EMS/BLS equipment. For the most part, most do now. Same with extrication equipment that were put on the trucks/aerials only. Now they do.

                There is also a trickle down effect, if you will. While the trucks/aerials are getting loaded down with more equipment and tools, they also need to shed some of their work load and tools down to the pumpers.
                Going back to extrication, we used to send to a MVA with entrapment, a Med Unit, Engine, Truck, and a Rescue. Today, we send the aforementioned, minus the Truck. It saves on manpower, and frees up the truck for a worker, where it is needed most.

                @ firefightinirish217... unless you are ForceRecon, you learn to do more with less. Just saying.

                FM1
                Except that you just justified my whole comment. The point of this thread was engines getting bigger. Add rescue tools, medical equipment, etc. and BAM, bigger engine. You guys went a little far into my post there guys. My point was that all of our engines, Sutphens had equpiment they needed, nothing more. They were bigger because that equipment needed wouldn't fit on the frame and body of an engine the size of the 80' and 70's engines we had. You see where I'm going here?

                Oh, and Force Recon are the boys that do more with less ole buddy. They go in light, come out light.

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                • #23
                  Like others have said we have piled on more and more equipment onto our engines. Add to that the newer safety and other required stuff the truck gets bigger. Add to that the mine is bigger then yours contest. We get the huge trucks

                  The one thing that i still have not figured out is the raised cab. why?

                  Yes i understand it increases the headroom in the cab.

                  Why do i need extra head room if i am seated and belted?

                  Then after you increase the height of the cab by 8-10 inches most people put in the specs that the body must meet the height of the cab.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RFD21C View Post
                    Like others have said we have piled on more and more equipment onto our engines. Add to that the newer safety and other required stuff the truck gets bigger. Add to that the mine is bigger then yours contest. We get the huge trucks

                    The one thing that i still have not figured out is the raised cab. why?

                    Yes i understand it increases the headroom in the cab.

                    Why do i need extra head room if i am seated and belted?

                    Then after you increase the height of the cab by 8-10 inches most people put in the specs that the body must meet the height of the cab.
                    Exactly! You nailed it! It only encourages members to stand up during a response.
                    Last edited by donethat; 02-09-2011, 03:18 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RFD21C View Post
                      Like others have said we have piled on more and more equipment onto our engines. Add to that the newer safety and other required stuff the truck gets bigger. Add to that the mine is bigger then yours contest. We get the huge trucks

                      The one thing that i still have not figured out is the raised cab. why?

                      Yes i understand it increases the headroom in the cab.

                      Why do i need extra head room if i am seated and belted?

                      Then after you increase the height of the cab by 8-10 inches most people put in the specs that the body must meet the height of the cab.
                      Because it looks really cool having an 8 man apartment house on the front of their fire engine !
                      Doesn't matter that they only have 4 asses to put in the seats.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RFD21C View Post
                        Then after you increase the height of the cab by 8-10 inches most people put in the specs that the body must meet the height of the cab.
                        At the VFD, we're actually doing the opposite, although it's unusual. We're putting on the raised roof to match the height of the body. We don't WANT a body that big, but with some future anticipated apparatus changes that will be occurring, we're having to stuff more things onto the engine company than we have in the past.

                        I think so many of the previous posters have brought up the points that surround why rigs today have gotten so much larger. I think a lot of times, we look at a new delivery with a 163" WB, 500 gallon tank, FDNY-style hosebed, and say to ourselves, "now THAT'S a fire engine!!" However, we look at another one with a higher hosebed, 750 (or 1000) gallon tank, highside compartments, etc, and say "what are those bozo's thinking?" when they might have spec'd and purchased the perfect rig for their given response district and call types.

                        The new engine we're about to buy at home is going to go to about 10x more auto accidents (lots and lots of overturned vehicles out this way) then fires. Heck, we probably have to lay a line on a call less than 10x a year. While we haven't ignored it's primary role as a first-end suppression piece, a little-bit-higher hosebed isn't the end of the world for us, although it might not be quite as nimble as some of the inner-city rigs out there.
                        Career Fire Captain
                        Volunteer Chief Officer


                        Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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                        • #27
                          I'm not a fan of raised roofs either. If you can't be slightly hunched over going from the jump seat to the door, you need to stop complaining.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
                            The new engine we're about to buy at home is going to go to about 10x more auto accidents (lots and lots of overturned vehicles out this way) then fires. Heck, we probably have to lay a line on a call less than 10x a year. While we haven't ignored it's primary role as a first-end suppression piece, a little-bit-higher hosebed isn't the end of the world for us, although it might not be quite as nimble as some of the inner-city rigs out there.
                            We are very much in the same boat. We run a 1800 gal side mount pumper tanker out of the north station because water is scarce out there. But that truck runs 10x the mva runs as it does structure fires.

                            We run a 1000 gal mid mount out of the south and it makes 15x as many MVAs as fires. Correction, it sits on the highway and we get gobs of car fires as well.

                            We have stuck with commercial chassis up to now, but with an interstate and several expected industrial expansions, we will be looking for a larger cab to meet our needs.
                            A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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                            • #29
                              re: raised roof apparatus

                              Originally posted by donethat View Post
                              Exactly! You nailed it! It only encourages members to stand up during a response.
                              Honestly, being in a department with both raised roof's and normal roof's, this sounds like an internal "culture" issue.

                              All our ALF Engines, Telesquirts, the mid-mount tower and reserve squads are all raised roofs. No one has been "encouraged" to stand up in them at all.
                              Co 11
                              Virginia Beach FD

                              Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

                              'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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                              • #30
                                The main reason is, the mission has changed. The fire department is now being asked to do more (EMS, techincal rescue, etc.) with less (less manpower = less apparatus going to one scene). We also have new technology that is more or less expected to be on an apparatus, that we didn't have, or maybe weren't relying on as much, in the 60s, 70s, or 80s (SCBA and the support equipment they require come to mind).

                                However, I think apparatus growth has hit a breaking point. The trucks are now as wide, tall, and long as they can be and still fit on the road. We will have to start being more selective on what equipment we will carry.

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