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  • Nfpa 1917?

    I just got done reading the Draft, and have to ask.... Why is NFPA getting involved with Ambulances, when we already have the KKK Standards? If a FD want's a NFPA ambulance, why don't they just order a KKK ambulance that meets relevant 1901 standards? For instance, the section dictating the reflective chevrons on the back of the truck, would contradict Mississippi laws on ambulance markings. It just seems to me NFPA is reaching outside their realm, and into ventures that aren't fire service related. I welcome constructive dialog on the subject.

  • #2
    I can't substantiate it by any means, but I heard a rumor recently that they're doing away with the KKK requirements and going with NFPA as its replacement.

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    • #3
      With fire-based EMS becoming more popular across the US, NFPA's attempting to have a positive impact on all of the vehicles that firefighters routinely ride on. Basically, ambulances were the only thing that we routinely staff and didn't have an NFPA standard for.

      The KKK standard isn't bad, but it's surely a "bare bones" standard.
      Career Fire Captain
      Volunteer Chief Officer


      Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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      • #4
        I see where your going, I guess I am slightly disappointed with all of the "cut and paste" work from 1901 & KKK. Heck, there is even a picture of a fire truck in the lighting standards. Not very much original material. If this was an English class, someone would get in trouble for handing in a report like that.

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        • #5
          I feel confident you'll see that the final edition has a lot of these things fixed. Remember that the ROP doesn't necessarily reflect the final edition, which is still several months away.

          In related news, we're hearing that a lot of the volunteer rescue squads in Virginia have a lot of beef with the NFPA 1917 standard, which bears the question about non-fire-service agencies being pressured into purchasing an ambulance that meets a FD standard.
          Career Fire Captain
          Volunteer Chief Officer


          Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ADC120 View Post
            If this was an English class, someone would get in trouble for handing in a report like that.
            It's not plagiarism if you copy your own work.

            As a matter of practice/style, NFPA standards often reuse the same language by reference to other standards for consistency.
            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
            sigpic
            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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            • #7
              Having been involved in ambulance purchases, I can tell you that KKK is NOT a standard. It is simply the federal government's identifier for their specification for an ambulance. It's what the U. S. government agencies have to use when they buy an ambulance. No one else is required to adhere to the KKK specification--most people do, though.

              NFPA, for a variety of reasons, decided to establish a standard for ambulances, thus the draft of NFPA 1917.

              Phil Goldsmith
              Pikesville VFC, Baltimore, MD
              Pleasant Hill VFC, Hanover, PA

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ADC120 View Post
                I just got done reading the Draft, and have to ask.... Why is NFPA getting involved with Ambulances, when we already have the KKK Standards? If a FD want's a NFPA ambulance, why don't they just order a KKK ambulance that meets relevant 1901 standards? For instance, the section dictating the reflective chevrons on the back of the truck, would contradict Mississippi laws on ambulance markings. It just seems to me NFPA is reaching outside their realm, and into ventures that aren't fire service related. I welcome constructive dialog on the subject.
                The fire service, in general, has been a provider of emergency medical care for at least the past 4 decades. During that time period many FDs have spent a substantial amount of time providing transport services in addition to non-transport care. So, EMS and ambulances ARE very much "fire service related".

                As was mentioned, NFPA has a standard for most of the other apparatus a FD uses, so an ambulance standard wouldn't be "reaching outside their realm" in my opinion.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by pgoldsmith View Post
                  Having been involved in ambulance purchases, I can tell you that KKK is NOT a standard. It is simply the federal government's identifier for their specification for an ambulance. It's what the U. S. government agencies have to use when they buy an ambulance. No one else is required to adhere to the KKK specification--most people do, though.

                  NFPA, for a variety of reasons, decided to establish a standard for ambulances, thus the draft of NFPA 1917.

                  Phil Goldsmith
                  Pikesville VFC, Baltimore, MD
                  Pleasant Hill VFC, Hanover, PA
                  I think you are both correct and incorrect. Although the Federal KKK standards themselves may not have been intended to be used as a national "standard", many states (at least in the south) in the absence of such and being to lazy to delevop there own simply enact laws that adopt federal kkk regulations and it becomes law.
                  RK
                  cell #901-494-9437

                  Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                  "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                  Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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                  • #10
                    This is also where the comments on proposed standards and changes to standards are so important - to find out if there are conflicts to state laws etc.....

                    If anyone is interested in submitting comments/proposed changes during the open period and needs assistance please feel free to contact me....I have a little experience in this - more so in reviewing the comments as a TC member.....

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                      I can't substantiate it by any means, but I heard a rumor recently that they're doing away with the KKK requirements and going with NFPA as its replacement.
                      I have also heard the KKK standards are going away, and that NFPA was approached to take over setting up standards for these apparatus.

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                      • #12
                        Comments were closed on Dec. 15, 2010

                        I read over the 1917 Draft in detail and returned about 30 comments. You can tell that some of the people involved in putting this together has no experience in the back of an ambulance or maybe what an Ambulance is for.
                        Examples:
                        3.3.37.2 - Discusses Primers and Booster Reel rewind motors using 12 Volt electrical current.
                        When was the last time you saw these on an ambulance.
                        6.1.1 - At least 10" of space between the rear door and cot.
                        6.26 - Seat belt warning lights and audible alarm to be heard in front & back for all seats.
                        Attendant can't move in back of ambulance. How do you do patient care with out moving.
                        6.29 - This says about 25% of the front width to have reflective striping and 50 % of the side of the unit to have reflective striping. OK but how wide - And ambulance is 96" wide, I can have a strip 1/4" wide by 24" long and meet the front requirement. The same for the side.
                        6.32.11.3 - Nothing to be stored with the onboard O2 Bottle. Why?

                        There are a whole lot more that don't make any sense. As far as I'm concerned NFPA needs to keep well enough along.
                        This I know will stir things up - But those that want to do EMS and know what it is about, should be the ones controlling EMS keep the firefighters out of it.
                        No disrespect to my Firefighting friends but most don't want anything to do with EMS but have to do it because its their job requirement. Then you follow this up the chain of command ladder and you see what you get. Just look at the fire apparatus around and it looks great and well cared for. Look at the ambulances and they look cheap and uncared for. You can tell what is the most important just be looking at the fleet.

                        I could ramble on and on but I will shut-up for now.

                        nc

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nc1130 View Post
                          I read over the 1917 Draft in detail and returned about 30 comments. You can tell that some of the people involved in putting this together has no experience in the back of an ambulance or maybe what an Ambulance is for.
                          Examples:
                          3.3.37.2 - Discusses Primers and Booster Reel rewind motors using 12 Volt electrical current.
                          When was the last time you saw these on an ambulance.3.3.37.2 Total Continuous Electrical Load. The total current required to operate all of the devices permanently
                          connected to the ambulance that can be simultaneously energized excluding intermittent-type loads such as primers
                          and booster reel rewind motors.

                          6.1.1 - At least 10" of space between the rear door and cot.
                          6.26 - Seat belt warning lights and audible alarm to be heard in front & back for all seats.
                          Attendant can't move in back of ambulance. How do you do patient care with out moving.
                          6.29 - This says about 25% of the front width to have reflective striping and 50 % of the side of the unit to have reflective striping. OK but how wide - And ambulance is 96" wide, I can have a strip 1/4" wide by 24" long and meet the front requirement. The same for the side.6.29.2 The stripe or combination of stripes shall be a minimum of 4 in. (100 mm) in total vertical width.
                          6.32.11.3 - Nothing to be stored with the onboard O2 Bottle. Why? Sparks from metal to metal banging isn't a good thing in a compartment full of O2. Think "Big Flame Flash".

                          There are a whole lot more that don't make any sense. As far as I'm concerned NFPA needs to keep well enough along.
                          This I know will stir things up - But those that want to do EMS and know what it is about, should be the ones controlling EMS keep the firefighters out of it.
                          No disrespect to my Firefighting friends but most don't want anything to do with EMS but have to do it because its their job requirement. Then you follow this up the chain of command ladder and you see what you get. Just look at the fire apparatus around and it looks great and well cared for. Look at the ambulances and they look cheap and uncared for. You can tell what is the most important just be looking at the fleet.

                          I could ramble on and on but I will shut-up for now.

                          nc
                          I like the idea that the NFPA is getting involved with the specifications/guidelines with ambulances/med units. To a degree.

                          As for the care of our med units, they all look as good as the fire trucks sitting beside them. Our FF's know they are needed, and are there if it is needed for them. So to slam a fire based EMS system is way out of line. Any FD running EMS should be happy that the NFPA is getting involved. Remember, an ambulance is still an emergency vehicle, and should be given the respect as a fire truck for standards and guidelines.

                          FM1
                          I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

                          Originally posted by EastKyFF
                          "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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                          • #14
                            I have read thru 1917 . For those that dont like the seatbelt alarm, I would get used to it. It is the biggest thing that is killing people in ambulances is the lack of restraint. If you cant move with a seatbelt on look for other options that will allow you to do your job while belted, forward facing seats, 4-5 belt systems (they offer more movment than the lap belts) I for one dont think 1917 goes far enough, but you cant expect NFPA to take KKK adn throw it out overnight. 1917 had to use the KKK spec as a starting point. I would think further editions will place more stress on pt and crew safty, with the elimination in many cases of the bench and CPR seats that tend to kill many EMT's by there poor design.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nc1130 View Post
                              This I know will stir things up - But those that want to do EMS and know what it is about, should be the ones controlling EMS keep the firefighters out of it.
                              I'm very proud to be good at delivering both EMS and firematic services. I work with a whole department full of guys that don't mind it, under an OMD who's striving to make us one of the premier fire-based EMS agencies in the US. Be careful stereotyping us! (And we're still pretty good at putting fires out too )

                              Just look at the fire apparatus around and it looks great and well cared for. Look at the ambulances and they look cheap and uncared for.
                              Sounds like management needs to talk with those folks then. When we wash and clean our suppression rigs, the ambulance is right there with it, getting the same attention to detail.

                              However, I digress. I've also heard from reliable sources that the KKK standards will be eliminated, so someone needed to step in with a national standard.
                              Career Fire Captain
                              Volunteer Chief Officer


                              Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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