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  • #46
    Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Not sure what a "Vindicator" is, and too lazy to find out right now (brutal day).

    Look here and you shall be enlightened: http://www.1ststriketech.com/

    I'll be more than man enough to say I should have been a little more clearer on what I originally posted, and that it was wrong to post what I did, as I did.

    We all accept your apology for your lack of clearness!!

    As for OFD, we don't have them for whatever reason. I don't know why. As for the 2 Pierces, OFD adopted them through annexation. When they were pump tested for flow on the bumper lines, they did not meet what OFD wanted for their requirements for an interior attack line. I don't know the numbers and what nots. Just the FACT that they are to be used for anything other than an interior attack.

    AND if that is what works for you FANTASTIC.

    Remember, these were spec'ed by a VFD, and not OFD. We don't know how or why they spec'ed them as they did.

    Um, DUDE! Do you realize the hidden slam you just made there? I would put my VOLUNTEER FD specced rescue pumper up against ANY engine you have on your career FD.

    I just know enough, to get myself in trouble.

    A truer statement has never been made!
    FM1
    Take it easy Brother, it's all mostly in fun.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 12-12-2010, 02:01 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
      Fyred, I never said I didn't support a performance spec - I just prefer a baseline plumbing spec (minimum size, materials, etc) backed up by a performance spec. My problem with a straight performance spec is on several fronts:

      1. I don't want anything smaller than 2 1/2" plumbing in a discharge that I expect 300gpm from, PERIOD. I don't care if they find a way to make it work, I expect a minimum pipe size.

      And that is reasonable I suppose. But explain why...

      2. A lot of manufacturers get scared by pure performance specs. When manufacturers get scared, they either avoid the job or jack up the price to cover any risk of having to re-work a truck if it fails to perform.

      To me if a manufacturer gets scared by a pure performance spec then he is not the manufacturer for me. Every manufacturer has an engineering department, and if figuring out how to flow 300 gpm at less than 20 psi friction loss taxes them, then it is time to find a different company to deal with.

      Golly, HME, the company that built our last Rescue Engine didn't even flinch when we wrote minimum performance specs for or front bumper crosslays, over the pump crosslays, our 2 - 2 1/2 inch rear preconnects, and our rear LDH intake.


      3. Engineering costs money. Sure it should be engineered, but the less we can put on their plate, the less it costs in the long run. Again, every time you put something that screams "ENGINEER THIS" in the spec, it jacks up the price.

      4. For the purposes of getting basic pricing, it creates a hassle. Most sales reps have no idea of what plumbing arrangement will allow for "less than 10psi friction loss at 300gpm". Much simpler if they can drop in pricing for 2 1/2" plumbing and just attach a note to it for the engineering staff.

      The sales rep doesn't need to know what it takes, all he has to do is WRITE IT IN THE SPEC. Frankly, I don't care about making it smpler for the sales rep, I care about making it RIGHT for my fire department.

      Remember I WAS a sales rep and writing specific spec requests like that are not really all that hard to do. All we had to do was make a request for pricing and we usually had it in a day or 2. Pretty unbearable.



      5. If the manufacturer for some reason doesn't do their due diligence in expensive engineering and the rig fails to meet spec at final inspection, it's a lose-lose for everybody involved. The FD has to wait longer for delivery, and the manufacturer has to adjust production schedule and loses money, which isn't good for anybody.

      If the manufacturer doesn't build what I want it is their problem, not mine. They have the responsibility to make it right. It is especially infuriating when this issue is something that was in the original spec and essentially IGNORED by the builder. Now because they screwed up it becomes my problem. Guess what, they better do some serious *** kissing to make up for their blantant stupidity. At that point any loss of revenue by the builder is entirely 100% their own fault and not my problem.


      In the end, I would far prefer a requirement for minimum of 2 1/2" piping, all stainless steel and high-pressure flex hose, with minimal use of elbows....all required to have less than XXpsi friction loss at 300gpm.

      And once again what if your required flow simply can't be done with 2 1/2 inch piping? Then what? Frankly, this has less to do with engineering and more to do with making it easier for the salesperson to whip out a spec in 15 minutes on Quote Writer. Sorry NO. I will continue to write pure performance specs and give the salesperson enough time to do his job properly rather than rush them into giving me a spec before they walk out the door from our committee meeting.
      I think we will simply have to agree to disagree on this because while you see it from the sales perspective and making it easier to pop out a spec, I see it from the end use side and I don't really care about making the salespersons job easier, I just want it done right for our needs.
      Last edited by FyredUp; 12-12-2010, 02:37 PM.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
        Not sure what a "Vindicator" is, and too lazy to find out right now (brutal day).

        I'll be more than man enough to say I should have been a little more clearer on what I originally posted, and that it was wrong to post what I did, as I did.

        As for OFD, we don't have them for whatever reason. I don't know why. As for the 2 Pierces, OFD adopted them through annexation. When they were pump tested for flow on the bumper lines, they did not meet what OFD wanted for their requirements for an interior attack line. I don't know the numbers and what nots. Just the FACT that they are to be used for anything other than an interior attack.

        Remember, these were spec'ed by a VFD, and not OFD. We don't know how or why they spec'ed them as they did.

        I just know enough, to get myself in trouble.

        FM1
        It's all good. Here's a couple easy to remember hints: Don't write schit and then tell me/us I/we don't know how to READ. You WILL get called on it. Two: Don't write stupid schit like a "Bumper line has TWICE the FL of a Crosslay". QUITE a few of us have EFFECTIVE bumper lines,to say otherwise:you'll get your azz handed to you. REMEMER,if we CALL you on something,don't take it personally. We like(as much as possible) to keep things FACTUAL and USEFUL,sometimes we stray a little. And, whatever you do,make NO reference to VFD vs Career. A LOT of VFD's have apparatus FAR superior to what MANY Career/cities run. Not to say many Cities don't have nice stuff but sometimes VFD's are allowed to really shine in application of apparatus and it isn't always Low bid. T.C.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by rescue101 View Post
          it's all good. Here's a couple easy to remember hints: Don't write schit and then tell me/us i/we don't know how to read. You will get called on it. Two: Don't write stupid schit like a "bumper line has twice the fl of a crosslay". Quite a few of us have effective bumper lines,to say otherwise:you'll get your azz handed to you. Rememer,if we call you on something,don't take it personally. We like(as much as possible) to keep things factual and useful,sometimes we stray a little. And, whatever you do,make no reference to vfd vs career. A lot of vfd's have apparatus far superior to what many career/cities run. Not to say many cities don't have nice stuff but sometimes vfd's are allowed to really shine in application of apparatus and it isn't always low bid. T.c.
          testify brother! Testify!!
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #50
            My apologies for the "hidden" slam, wasn't my intention. I try my best not to compare VFD's to Career dept's in any arena. I work on the side on a few VFD's, and I truly wish we had some of their stuff.

            Otherwise I'm good. Be safe out there.

            FM1
            I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

            Originally posted by EastKyFF
            "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

            Comment


            • #51
              We've had bumper lines for a while, always located on the drivers side of the bumper. we specked it to hold 100' of 1 3/4 but we are able to put 150'. We start with an "inverted horse shoe" lay, or "stack" on the rear wall (below headlights) of the the hose well. During the first layer of the horse shoe we put a loop that comes out and over the side of the bumber the rest go straight up making sure not to block the head light. Continue this with the 1st 50'.
              Connect the second 50' and begin your second "stack" directly in front of the first, and make that "stack" exactly the same way, complete with the loop.

              On our rigs, the stacks take up about half the length (front to rear) of the hose well.
              and ther are 2 ways to fill the void.
              the first is to take the last 50' section and do a donut roll, attach nozzel and to 2n'd "stack, the place it in the void. then fold your two loops up and down into the "u" in each stack. to deploy, the FF1 grabs the pipe and the roll and takes off, ff 2 un tucks the loops, grabs them and yanks (in one fail swoop) the 2 stacks out of the hose hell. then continues to back up the pipeman. Then pipeman, when he gets to the vehicle,front door, he unrolls the donut right there. and away you go.
              The second is to take the last 50' section, caonnect it to the second stack then lay the hose in a cross lay or "X" style pattern, again, Leaving 2 loops the same size as the ones on the "stacks"(one for each leg of the "X", this should leave 4 loops side by side hanging over the side of the bumper) then fill in the hosewell following the same "X" pattern only now staing inside the hose well. Connect your nozzel and lay onto of the cross lay. fold all 4 loops up and into/onto the stacks and crosslay respectively. To deploy, FF1 takes cross lay loops, puts arm through and takes off towards fire, FF2 dose the same as mentioned above.
              I know your probably thinking they Both sound like they would leave a spagetti mess, and I can't blame you, but it works great.
              We use it for Vehicle brush and dumpster fires, and on some structure fires depending on building setback.

              here's a picture of it packed on the rig: http://www.mvfd5.com/rescue_engine_5-1.php
              It takes a little intelligence to enjoy humor,satire & wit, but none to be offended by it.

              It take more than a new Leather Helmet to make you a good officer

              Comment


              • #52
                The only apparatus we ever had with a bumper "speedlay" was the '97 E-one. IT is also the last bumber line to get spec'd on a new apparatus. It has been more of a pain than any kind of convenience. It never loaded back the same way twice. We found it was faster to pull what ever we needed off of a cross lay and hook it up to a discharge than it was to deploy the bumper line. It was especially faster to load back. But, like I said, that was our experience with the bumper line.
                Last edited by firefightinirish217; 12-16-2010, 03:11 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Maybe the clearest distinction on versatility of front bumper preconnects is the intent of the fire department that had them installed.

                  Some are clearly installed as trash/car fire only lines and some, like my FD's newest engine, are clearly installed and plumbed for offensive interior fire attack. Obviously if you plumb a discharge to flow 100 gpm or less your options for use are extremely limited. But if you plumbed them like my FD did, with capabilities of a minimum spec calling for 300 gpm to the discharge with no more than 20 psi internal friction loss, they clearly can be used for a heavy hit interior attack line.

                  I will admit I am no fan of the deep well type bumper preconnects, or the donut roll preconnects, but heck if they work for you and you like them it is cool with me. On my volly FD the front bumper crosslays are just that crosslays. They go the full width of the bumper and contain 200 feet of nitrile rubber 2 inch hose. They are loaded with a flat load with an ear to allow quick deployment of the line. Relaoding is quick and easy and didn't involve retraining for a different type of hose load.

                  To each his own I suppose as far as front preconnects go. Some will never use them and others will see the use of them for the first time and love the idea and expand its use.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                    Take it easy Brother, it's all mostly in fun.
                    Cheez,
                    When I did that to you on the Tail Board riding thread, you jumped all over me !!!
                    But it's Ok for You to have a little fun stirring the pot. ????

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      FyredUp your reply is the closest to needing a Facebook "LIKE" button that I have seen in a long time. Well said.
                      Last edited by 52shelby; 12-16-2010, 10:42 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by donethat View Post
                        Cheez,
                        When I did that to you on the Tail Board riding thread, you jumped all over me !!!
                        But it's Ok for You to have a little fun stirring the pot. ????
                        The difference is simple.

                        1) Your comment did not come off as teasing, kidding, or funny. Even another poster called you on your obvious mean spiritedness.

                        2) I have conversed many times with FIREMECH1 and while we don"t always agree, and sometimes may give each other the business it always stays friendly and respectful.
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                          The difference is simple.

                          1) Your comment did not come off as teasing, kidding, or funny. Even another poster called you on your obvious mean spiritedness.

                          2) I have conversed many times with FIREMECH1 and while we don"t always agree, and sometimes may give each other the business it always stays friendly and respectful.
                          I respectfully disagree with your response. I was kidding and you failed to understand that.
                          Have a wonderful holiday!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by donethat View Post
                            I respectfully disagree with your response. I was kidding and you failed to understand that.
                            Have a wonderful holiday!
                            Nah, you are a humorless little man who is still trying to cover his butt.

                            Move along. I have no more time to waste on you.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by donethat
                              Cheez, When I did that to you on the Tail Board riding thread, you jumped all over me !!! But it's Ok for You to have a little fun stirring the pot. ????
                              As far as I know, me and you are good, but I think you made a terrible mistake bringing what happened on another thread, to this one. This time, you're stirring the pot, unneeded.

                              I made a HUGE mistake in my posting, and got called out on it. Yeah, I back peddled as fast as I could to get what I SHOULD have said, said. Either way, Rescue and FyredUp called me on it. While both were cutting chunks off my arse, I was also being educated. I didn't like it, but it is what it is, and won't happen again.

                              Me and FyredUp will probably bump heads again on something else. But we have always done it with mutual respect for one another. The way it should be. As for being friendly, he can step on my polished boots anytime.

                              There's a time and place to take the high road, and let it go.

                              FM1
                              Last edited by FIREMECH1; 12-17-2010, 01:44 AM.
                              I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

                              Originally posted by EastKyFF
                              "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
                                As far as I know, me and you are good, but I think you made a terrible mistake bringing what happened on another thread, to this one. This time, you're stirring the pot, unneeded.

                                I made a HUGE mistake in my posting, and got called out on it. Yeah, I back peddled as fast as I could to get what I SHOULD have said, said. Either way, Rescue and FyredUp called me on it. While both were cutting chunks off my arse, I was also being educated. I didn't like it, but it is what it is, and won't happen again.

                                Me and FyredUp will probably bump heads again on something else. But we have always done it with mutual respect for one another. The way it should be. As for being friendly, he can step on my polished boots anytime.

                                There's a time and place to take the high road, and let it go.

                                FM1
                                Excellent post.

                                I too have been educated by others on here. Sometimes it is not such a great experience, but you are right it is what it is. We decide how we take it and if we are smart we learn from it and move on.

                                Take care Brother.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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