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  • #31
    Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Easy big guy, it was just a number to throw out there while posting. Mistake on my behalf, yes.

    Is there a measurable difference from running a crosslay compared to a bumper line of the same size. YES.

    FM1
    Sorry, but you couldn't possibly be more wrong. There is no difference IF YOU SPEC IT RIGHT. We specced our front bumper crosslays to flow EXACTLY the same as the over the pump crosslays. Minimum of 300 gpm with no more than 20 psi friction loss in the piping. And they both flwo what our spec calls for. Imagine that?

    People run into trouble when they spec pipe size and not performance. You could spec 2 1/2 inch pipe for crosslays and have the manufacturer put in so many bends and elbows you gain nothing in performance. If you spec 300 gpm at no more than 20 psi friction loss it is up to the engineers to figure out how to make it work. Not for you to go after the purchse to say "Well they put in what we asked for, but it doesn't work."

    Funny how people buying a piece of fire apparatus will spend all day writing performance specs for engines, transmissions, pumps, foam systems, generators, and lights...but not one second seriously thinking about performance for flow through preconnects and front and rear discharges. I say SHAME on salespeople for not asking what people expect to flow through those lines, and not what size pipe they want.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
      Here's a second (or third) vote for the donut roll pre-connects (nice pics, Adam!) and for 2 1/2"-3" plumbing to the bumper.
      Speccing a particular pipe size does not guarantee the performance you desire. If you set a performance spec it is up to the manufacturer to meet it. You can spec 2 1/2 pipe and not come anywhere near what you want depending on how it is plumbed.
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
        I'm with MemphisE34a on tactics and use of the bumper lines. They should be used for quick attack, quick extinguishment of a fire. Cars, trash, etc. They should never be used as an interior line. The friction loss of using a bumper line is doubled compared to using a crosslay of the same size. JMHO.

        FM1
        Oh Contrare. We've used ours on a few occasions for such a purpose. But it was PLUMBED as a heavy hit line. Goes back to that pesky speccing thing. T.C.
        Last edited by Rescue101; 12-11-2010, 04:23 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Funny how Chicago can plumb an LDH discharge to the front of their engines, and so many can plumb 2 1/2, 3 or even LDH off the back of their engines, but a 300 gpm handline to the front bumper simply is nearly impossible. Golly,
          what about all those rigs with front bumper master streams? How do they do it?

          Once again, it is SIMPLE. Write the spec to say it MUST be done and write a performance spec for the builder to meet. If one builder can't or won't do it there are plenty of fish in the apparatus builder sea that will.

          When we specced our front bumper crosslays the spec was crystal clear. We even sent 200 feet of our hose to the factory so they could make sure it fit. We specced flow and assumed that their engineering staff would figure it our. Guess what they did and it works perfectly. Two 200 foot 2 inch lines that flow 300 gpm each at actually less than 20 psi internal friction loss.

          Finally if your new engine doesn't do what it was supposed to by spec...DON'T ACCEPT IT. It really is that simple.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by LittleJoe7197 View Post
            Can you post some pictures?
            Sadly, I am a computer idjit, and never figured out how to do this...

            I won't be home for a couple of weeks yet, but there is a picture of this truck on our website. it's basically a "baby picture" but you can see the crosslays I'm talking about. Best way to find us is thru the Monroe County Fire Wire site, and look for the dept websites.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
              Oh Contrare. We've used ours on a few occasions for such a purpose. But it was PLUMBED as a heavy hit line. Goes back to that pseky speccing thing. T.C.
              The red section is my point. Reread what I posted FyredUp. Or better yet... is your bumper line piping THE SAME SIZE PIPING AS YOUR CROSSLAYS???? That is my point. Not that you spec'd it differently as needed.

              We have 2 Pierce rigs with bumper lines piped the SAME SIZE as the crosslays. The loss is enough that the crews are NOT ALLOWED to use them as an interior attack line. PERIOD!!!!

              So you get this straight, WE didn't order or spec them. They were adopted as that town was annexed by the City.

              FM1
              I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

              Originally posted by EastKyFF
              "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
                The red section is my point. Reread what I posted FyredUp. Or better yet... is your bumper line piping THE SAME SIZE PIPING AS YOUR CROSSLAYS???? That is my point. Not that you spec'd it differently as needed.

                We have 2 Pierce rigs with bumper lines piped the SAME SIZE as the crosslays. The loss is enough that the crews are NOT ALLOWED to use them as an interior attack line. PERIOD!!!!

                So you get this straight, WE didn't order or spec them. They were adopted as that town was annexed by the City.

                FM1
                I haven't a clue whether the piping is the same size or not. I will have to take a look next time I am at the FD. To be honest I couldn't care less what size the pipe is since we had a PERFORMANCE spec, not a pipe size spec. We told them the flow we wanted and expected them to figure out how to build it. They have ENGINEERS to figure out what it takes to meet the PERFORMANCE we wanted. Honestly I think anybody that writes a spec quoting pipe since instead of performance is really doing theor fire department a HUGE disservice.

                And perhaps if you had said that in YOUR specific instance, engines that were poorly specced, have front bumper lines that were plumbed incorrectly and have friction losses twice that of your crosslays, there would have been no confusion as to what you meant.

                I see 3 possible scenarios as to why those engines are plumbed as they are:

                1) The spec committee said we want a front bumper pre-connect so lets plumb it the same as the crosslays so we get the same water. (Incorrect thinking)

                2) We need a trash line off the front that flows 100 gpm or less for nuisance fires. (Short sited thinking, but not necessarily wrong.)

                3) The salesman didn't know any better so he went along with what the FD wanted. (Possible and shameful if true.)
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
                  The red section is my point. Reread what I posted FyredUp. Or better yet... is your bumper line piping THE SAME SIZE PIPING AS YOUR CROSSLAYS???? That is my point. Not that you spec'd it differently as needed.

                  We have 2 Pierce rigs with bumper lines piped the SAME SIZE as the crosslays. The loss is enough that the crews are NOT ALLOWED to use them as an interior attack line. PERIOD!!!!

                  So you get this straight, WE didn't order or spec them. They were adopted as that town was annexed by the City.

                  FM1
                  It's a shame you stuck with two Pierces

                  Why don't you just pump the front lines at more pressure to compensate the loss? It ain't that hard.

                  Not trying to start anything BTW.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
                    I'm with MemphisE34a on tactics and use of the bumper lines. They should be used for quick attack, quick extinguishment of a fire. Cars, trash, etc. They should never be used as an interior line. The friction loss of using a bumper line is doubled compared to using a crosslay of the same size. JMHO.

                    FM1
                    Hello? FM1 does ANY of this look FAMILIAR? BTW,this is NOT my statement,I'm QUITE sure it's YOURS. I don't know how stuff is done in YOUR neck of the woods,but HERE bumper lines are SPECCED to FLOW,they aren't glorified booster lines. Much like Fyred's,we have very little loss in our front line. They CAN be used for ANY attack that you might care to pull them for. Two of the rigs have Vindicators on the bumper lines. FWIW T.C.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                      Two of the rigs have Vindicators on the bumper lines. FWIW T.C.
                      Sweet! Our Squid now has one bumper load with 15/16ths and the other with a Vindicator. We've flowed the Vindicator at 450 gpm off the bumper using 2.5" hose and 300 gpm through 1.75"! That's about max through the discharge with each set up, before the pump starts fighting itself. Again, the performance spec vs. just asking for two 1.5" male threads to attach hose to makes a big difference.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                        Sweet! Our Squid now has one bumper load with 15/16ths and the other with a Vindicator. We've flowed the Vindicator at 450 gpm off the bumper using 2.5" hose and 300 gpm through 1.75"! That's about max through the discharge with each set up, before the pump starts fighting itself. Again, the performance spec vs. just asking for two 1.5" male threads to attach hose to makes a big difference.
                        I thought a "Squid" didn't need a nozzle. It has INK jets,hehe T.C.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
                          I thought a "Squid" didn't need a nozzle. It has INK jets,hehe T.C.
                          We call it the Squid, cause it's tough like most calamari, yet everyone loves it!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Front Bumper-Lay.....

                            Our Brush Engine has a short section (if memory serves me correct 30') of 1 1/2" single jacket that we use for Mobile Pumping. Interesting concept of a pre-connect up there.
                            "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

                            Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

                            Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Rescue101
                              Hello? FM1 does ANY of this look FAMILIAR? BTW,this is NOT my statement,I'm QUITE sure it's YOURS. I don't know how stuff is done in YOUR neck of the woods,but HERE bumper lines are SPECCED to FLOW,they aren't glorified booster lines. Much like Fyred's,we have very little loss in our front line. They CAN be used for ANY attack that you might care to pull them for. Two of the rigs have Vindicators on the bumper lines. FWIW T.C.
                              Not sure what a "Vindicator" is, and too lazy to find out right now (brutal day).

                              I'll be more than man enough to say I should have been a little more clearer on what I originally posted, and that it was wrong to post what I did, as I did.

                              As for OFD, we don't have them for whatever reason. I don't know why. As for the 2 Pierces, OFD adopted them through annexation. When they were pump tested for flow on the bumper lines, they did not meet what OFD wanted for their requirements for an interior attack line. I don't know the numbers and what nots. Just the FACT that they are to be used for anything other than an interior attack.

                              Remember, these were spec'ed by a VFD, and not OFD. We don't know how or why they spec'ed them as they did.

                              I just know enough, to get myself in trouble.

                              FM1
                              I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

                              Originally posted by EastKyFF
                              "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                                Speccing a particular pipe size does not guarantee the performance you desire. If you set a performance spec it is up to the manufacturer to meet it. You can spec 2 1/2 pipe and not come anywhere near what you want depending on how it is plumbed.
                                Fyred, I never said I didn't support a performance spec - I just prefer a baseline plumbing spec (minimum size, materials, etc) backed up by a performance spec. My problem with a straight performance spec is on several fronts:

                                1. I don't want anything smaller than 2 1/2" plumbing in a discharge that I expect 300gpm from, PERIOD. I don't care if they find a way to make it work, I expect a minimum pipe size.

                                2. A lot of manufacturers get scared by pure performance specs. When manufacturers get scared, they either avoid the job or jack up the price to cover any risk of having to re-work a truck if it fails to perform.

                                3. Engineering costs money. Sure it should be engineered, but the less we can put on their plate, the less it costs in the long run. Again, every time you put something that screams "ENGINEER THIS" in the spec, it jacks up the price.

                                4. For the purposes of getting basic pricing, it creates a hassle. Most sales reps have no idea of what plumbing arrangement will allow for "less than 10psi friction loss at 300gpm". Much simpler if they can drop in pricing for 2 1/2" plumbing and just attach a note to it for the engineering staff.

                                5. If the manufacturer for some reason doesn't do their due diligence in expensive engineering and the rig fails to meet spec at final inspection, it's a lose-lose for everybody involved. The FD has to wait longer for delivery, and the manufacturer has to adjust production schedule and loses money, which isn't good for anybody.


                                In the end, I would far prefer a requirement for minimum of 2 1/2" piping, all stainless steel and high-pressure flex hose, with minimal use of elbows....all required to have less than XXpsi friction loss at 300gpm.

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