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  • engine341
    replied
    Thanks to all who answered back. I appreciate the feed back.

    Leave a comment:


  • FIREMECH1
    replied
    I don't care what secondary braking system you use on your rigs. Being either a Telma system or a Jake brake, or both, there is no way you are going to get 60,000 miles on the original brake pads. Only reason that could POSSIBLY happen, is if your runs are on the highway or interstate. Then that MIGHT, be possible. But I doubt it.

    FM1

    Leave a comment:


  • npfd801
    replied
    Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    And it very well may be. I can only tell you what I was personally told. This wasn't through the gravevine. I called the LA City fire shop personally.

    I don't what the shop guy would have to lose or gain based on our conversation. I can only tell you what he said.

    Perhaps he meant no major brake repairs and was excluding pads.....don't know.
    I sat in on a seminar once with the guy that ran fleet for LA City and someone from fleet from FDNY, and they (LA) do run one heck of an auxillary braking package. Think it was a Telma and a Jake brake, but its been a few years and I could have my facts wrong. That could certainly explain extended brake life...

    Leave a comment:


  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    60,000 miles on OE brakes??? Yeah, right.
    Originally posted by txgp17
    I raise the BS flag on that one too.
    And it very well may be. I can only tell you what I was personally told. This wasn't through the gravevine. I called the LA City fire shop personally.

    I don't what the shop guy would have to lose or gain based on our conversation. I can only tell you what he said.

    Perhaps he meant no major brake repairs and was excluding pads.....don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • SFD_E73_RET
    replied
    A little birdie told me Spartan just got new IFS up to 24K Lbs, improved cramp angle and new pricing (lower). It's not in Sparcon yet but can be special optioned for pricing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ledebuhr1
    replied
    I would rather have CAFS than IFS. Spend the money on things that will make the truck function better, im not sure IFS will do that.

    Leave a comment:


  • txgp17
    replied
    Originally posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    60,000 miles on OE brakes??? Yeah, right.
    I raise the BS flag on that one too.

    One of the points I didn't mention on the IFS we have is that the pad life is about one third what the salesman told our mechanics to expect.

    The whole disc/drum argument is null. You can get disc brakes on an I-beam, that's nothing new. My Dept has a 1985 Pierce with 4-wheel disc brakes. And no, they weren't retrofitted.

    And the "military uses IFS" point has no bearing on this discussion. Would you expect Delta Airlines to use the same aircraft as the Air Force? I don't see FedEx lining up to buy any C-17's or C-141's. When was the last time you saw a civilian Medivac/LifeFlight unit swoop in on a Sikorsky UH-60, or a CH-53?

    By the way, the vast majority of heavy trucks driven by Uncle Sam use solid front axles. The HMMWV may have IFS, but it's a light vehicle. The HEMTT, the M1070, and the FMTV have solid axles.

    Leave a comment:


  • FIREMECH1
    replied
    I'm not on the anti-Pierce boat on this one. I'm on the boat that is anti-IFS, no matter who makes it. Do I have experience with them, yes. And not the best when parts are needed for replacement. The cost for parts are ridiculous, and the labor is conducive.

    Maintenance is just labor for going over it real good. Takes alot longer than an I-Beam, if done right.

    Originally posted by 2ivswo
    Being an Engineer that drives an I-Beam designed rig, i much prefer the IFS for the reasons listed above. Furthermore regarding the cost, the rig with IFS cost around $35,000 less (including a CAFS mind you) than our newest I-Beam rig with a delivery date of one year seperating them.
    Don't come here flying that crap. It is obvious that the two were NOT spec'd identically.

    60,000 miles on OE brakes??? Yeah, right.

    FM1

    Leave a comment:


  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    Fair enough everyone and good debate!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I am not going to speak for you, but I am clearly no mechanic. I occasionally do however use deductive reasoning:

    I know that disc brakes compared to equally sized drum braking systems work better on cars and regular passenger trucks.

    I do not think there is a significant cost difference between maintaining disc brakes or drum brakes on regular vehicles.

    I know that larger trucks spec'ed by the military use IFS.

    Ultimately it doesn't matter to me either. The engine I ride in the City has the single I beam.

    My main point is this: Currently Pierce is the only manufacturer that offers IFS and 4 wheel disc brakes. There may be others, but they were the first. It appears that many of the folks in here are coming up with lame excuses because they don't like Pierce.

    Having ridden in both, the IFS definately rides better. Does is stop better when compared to equal brake systems with I-beam - no idea, BUT see my powers of deductive reasoning above.
    Hehe Robert,now we're on the same Goatpath. What I was alluding to(and I AM a Truck mechanic) is that if you take two Engines(or ladders if you prefer) equip them equally(17" disc front )and whatever you want on the back brakes as long as they are equal,with the ONLY difference being one is IFS and one I beam, Put them on a test track and measure the stopping difference and there won't be much difference. Ifs will ride somewhat better but here again you will have to have identical year,identically specced rigs to tell the difference. I KNOW our new platform has 17" disc front,drum rear,weighs 78,000 and stops..........QUICKLY! I would say even quicker than the Engine housed with it. The Military uses a lot of IFS for clearance and rough terrain reasons. And with them training mechanics,they get taken apart and put back together..............A lot! Really can't compare the two applications as they are quite different. But if the City will spring for 'em and they work for you, ENJOY with my blessing! T. C.

    Leave a comment:


  • LTWOLF
    replied
    I agree also

    Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I couldn't agree more. Many of you say don't drink the Kool Aid, but you seem to yourself be victims of brand preference buy eliminating one or two manufacturers at any cost.

    Of coarse IFS sytems are better and I seriously doubt that they cost anymore to maintain. A department where I volunteered spec'ed an Arrow XT with the 17" disc brakes and IFS. Prior to doing so, we called the LAFD maintenance shop and spoke with the Manager. He told me that they had rigs with +/- 60,000 miles that had no component maitenance costs and several had not even required brake jobs at that mileage. There have been no issues with the XT that we purchased.

    Since then, the Memphis Fire Department went with Pierce Arrow XT's as well after not buying a Pierce in over 15 years. There are currently 9 engines and a truck here on XT chassis and everyone that have driven or ridden in them thinks they are a dream.

    Don't have a feel for the road?? BS.....they are different for sure. Get it out and drive it and become familiar with your equipment.
    My department had Spartan E-Ones and KME's for the better part of 2 decades. The Spartans (2 of them ) drove exceptionaly nice and were circa 1986. Our KME's were from 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2005. Finally after years of problems with the newer fleet, we set out to look for a more reliable and better built vehicle. Numerous members of our department work at part-time departments with a wide range of manufacturer vehicles present. Our vehicle committee looked at E-One, Crimson, Custom Fire, HME Ahrens -Fox, Smeal, Sutphen and Pierce. After all was said and done we chose Pierce. No they were not high bid, and they were not low bid. But one of the main factors was ride and driveability from our engineers. Our Full Time Engineers fell in love with the ride, steering and braking distance. The ease of the turning radius was also a huge hit. And just for the record, Yes we also asked to get a Spartan IFS Demo to our station for an apples to apples comparison. Unfortunately, that never happened. Since switching to Pierce with the IFS we have actually had less issues with front suspension, steering and braking problems than we did with our previous manufacturers. All in all, the department, the engineers and the line staff love the new rigs. As an officer, I dont feel like my man hood is jolted and pushed through my spine every time we hit a pot-hole or bump in the street. Also the increased manuverabilty is fantastic, we are able to get into courts and culde-sacs alot easier with the tighter cramp angles of the newer IFS rigs.

    I feel that our membership and especially our Engineers are well educated in our apparatus and that of whats available in the industry. At the end of the day, they chose Pierce, Not because its "GRAPE FLAVORED KOOL-AIDE", but because they felt it was the best apparatus for our department. It seems all too evident that there are individuals on this forum who are salesmen or brand loyalist who will do anything to dis-credit Pierce. It truly is a shame, Pierce builds a nice product, as do many other manufacturers. Dont air out your personal grudge just because you lost a contract or your bid was rejected.Check your feelings at the door.

    Career Lieutenant
    Part Time FFPM / POC
    18 years of experience

    Leave a comment:


  • mcwops
    replied
    Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I am not going to speak for you, but I am clearly no mechanic. I occasionally do however use deductive reasoning:

    I know that disc brakes compared to equally sized drum braking systems work better on cars and regular passenger trucks.

    I do not think there is a significant cost difference between maintaining disc brakes or drum brakes on regular vehicles.

    I know that larger trucks spec'ed by the military use IFS.

    Ultimately it doesn't matter to me either. The engine I ride in the City has the single I beam.

    My main point is this: Currently Pierce is the only manufacturer that offers IFS and 4 wheel disc brakes. There may be others, but they were the first. It appears that many of the folks in here are coming up with lame excuses because they don't like Pierce.

    Having ridden in both, the IFS definately rides better. Does is stop better when compared to equal brake systems with I-beam - no idea, BUT see my powers of deductive reasoning above.
    The question to ask is why does the military use IFS? The answer is because their equipment is designed to run offroad, over rough terrain, much like our ARFF trucks that have four wheel independent suspension. Your average fire apparatus will rarely leave the pavement, and almost never get out in the rough.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoxAlarm187
    replied
    Loo,

    TC (Rescue101) wasn't making a reference to disc versus drum when he mentioned equal braking systems.

    When the IFS first hit the market from Pierce, one the sales points was the improved braking distance. This was based on the 17" disc brakes that the system had, versus the 15" that everyone else was using the I-beam suspension. Fast forward to present day, and 17" brakes can be found on both IFS and I-Beam, so it somewhat nullifies the "shorter braking distance" argument.

    As for the cost factor, I can attest to the increased cost on brake system repairs we have on the IFS rigs at work. I work closely with the folks in the shop, and they remind me of this often.

    Pierce may have been the first to offer IFS in the fire apparatus market, but they certainly aren't exclusive to IFS with 4-wheel disc brakes. Hell, I've got 4-wheel disc brakes on the 1990 HME/Grumman at the VFD. Currently, Pierce, Spartan, Ferrara, and E-One are offering IFS on their rigs, with your choice of rear brakes.

    Finally, since the department I work for has Pierce as 31 of the 38 front-line fire suppression rigs, our member's opinion isn't anti-Pierce. They build a fine product, as do many other manufacturers. We've just found that our members prefer the "feel" and "responsiveness" of an I-beam. I won't argue that it rides better, but it's not always about the ride.

    Leave a comment:


  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    Originally posted by Rescue101 View Post
    BUT do they brake any better than a I Beam with identical brakes? And YES, there ARE more moving parts. You do the math but sooner or later EVERY rig needs some front end work. Isn't going to change my paycheck no matter which one you buy. But I've "hossed" a lot of trucks over the years and I'm NOT buying the "IFS stops significantly better" line on rigs with EQUAL brake systems.
    I am not going to speak for you, but I am clearly no mechanic. I occasionally do however use deductive reasoning:

    I know that disc brakes compared to equally sized drum braking systems work better on cars and regular passenger trucks.

    I do not think there is a significant cost difference between maintaining disc brakes or drum brakes on regular vehicles.

    I know that larger trucks spec'ed by the military use IFS.

    Ultimately it doesn't matter to me either. The engine I ride in the City has the single I beam.

    My main point is this: Currently Pierce is the only manufacturer that offers IFS and 4 wheel disc brakes. There may be others, but they were the first. It appears that many of the folks in here are coming up with lame excuses because they don't like Pierce.

    Having ridden in both, the IFS definately rides better. Does is stop better when compared to equal brake systems with I-beam - no idea, BUT see my powers of deductive reasoning above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    BUT do they brake any better than a I Beam with identical brakes? And YES, there ARE more moving parts. You do the math but sooner or later EVERY rig needs some front end work. Isn't going to change my paycheck no matter which one you buy. But I've "hossed" a lot of trucks over the years and I'm NOT buying the "IFS stops significantly better" line on rigs with EQUAL brake systems.

    Leave a comment:

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