Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Policy on further education

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • WMFF12
    replied
    Heh Heh....
    Me thinks Rand missed my point totally... Oh well...

    Leave a comment:


  • Weruj1
    replied
    as RFRD posted earlier .............any additional training FF1 FF2 and Medic can be covered by grants, or if monies are available via line item budget then people are sent and they sign a contract. IIRC it is for 1 year upon completion of said class. If they go before that they are responsible for payback. Luckily this hasnt happend in a while but we have had a past problem, which is why we went to the contract deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • doublej986
    replied
    Originally posted by randsc View Post
    ...what is a 36 hr? I am guessing that the 120 hr and 240 hr roughly correspond to what here we call FF1 and FF2, though our FF1 is 196 hours and our FF2 is 184 hrs. But what do you cover in 36 hr? Is it like an orientation type of thing?

    Anyway, while it sucks that you have had the problems you have had, it still sounds to me like part of the problem is with your recruitment process, and you are letting on too many people who are joining for the wrong reasons.

    One thing you might consider is having people do the EMT and medic stuff through local colleges rather than the academy. Because they would then be in a standard semester, getting an EMT-B will take a year, so you will have them as a FR for nearly that long. And someone going for a medic, you would have as an EMT-I for at least 3-4 semesters before they finished their coursework.

    I'd rather pay for a guy I immediately lose than put in place a policy that might cause 3 guys not to go to training.
    A 36 hour FF course covers the basics. Just enough to be allowed to enter a fire under State of Ohio Regs.

    Leave a comment:


  • doublej986
    replied
    Originally posted by LouisianaMedic View Post
    In the departments I belong to in Pa and LA - all fire fighting training is covered by the departments if not free from the state... First responder class (40 hours) paid by some departments. EMT - B must be paid by the individual seeking that and maybe reimbursed by the department I belong to in Louisiana but only after certain number of calls have been run and certain amount of time with the department and if they past the test..

    Contracts in a volunteer department is almost worthless unless you plan to follow through with them in court procedings and the contract should also state - if you break the contract you need to pay for the training and will also have to pay for court and attorney's fee for breaking the contract to recover the cost....

    Medic, I like the idea of making them pay for the court costs too. I might have to write up an R&R on that.

    Leave a comment:


  • LouisianaMedic
    replied
    In the departments I belong to in Pa and LA - all fire fighting training is covered by the departments if not free from the state... First responder class (40 hours) paid by some departments. EMT - B must be paid by the individual seeking that and maybe reimbursed by the department I belong to in Louisiana but only after certain number of calls have been run and certain amount of time with the department and if they past the test..

    Contracts in a volunteer department is almost worthless unless you plan to follow through with them in court procedings and the contract should also state - if you break the contract you need to pay for the training and will also have to pay for court and attorney's fee for breaking the contract to recover the cost....

    Leave a comment:


  • bfranse
    replied
    Training budgets don't grow on trees...

    Originally posted by randsc View Post
    Anyway, while it sucks that you have had the problems you have had, it still sounds to me like part of the problem is with your recruitment process, and you are letting on too many people who are joining for the wrong reasons.
    There are a dozen motivations for some one to volunteer. With volunteerism in the fire service falling, some times you have to take the good motivations with the bad and let strong officers push them in the right direction.

    Originally posted by randsc View Post
    One thing you might consider is having people do the EMT and medic stuff through local colleges rather than the academy. Because they would then be in a standard semester, getting an EMT-B will take a year, so you will have them as a FR for nearly that long. And someone going for a medic, you would have as an EMT-I for at least 3-4 semesters before they finished their coursework.
    Here most of the time, if you don't belong to a FF/EMS organization, the only place you can get FFI, FF2, EMT, EMT-P is at the Community Colleges and it isn't cheap. We can get the training cheaper using fire agencies.

    Originally posted by randsc View Post
    I'd rather pay for a guy I immediately lose than put in place a policy that might cause 3 guys not to go to training.
    With a limited training budget there isn't anything wrong with putting a few stipulations for training to be paid for. If those same 3 guys don't want to go to training because they have to meet a basic criteria, I don't want to pay their way, it makes me think their bad motivations are out weighing the good.

    Leave a comment:


  • randsc
    replied
    Just out of curiousity...

    Originally posted by doublej986 View Post
    I am in the process of trying to pass R&R's through our membership to require each member who wants training other than 36 hr FF or EMT-B to submit a letter of intent to me before taking any class. I have to approve it then take it to the Finance Committee for further approval and then they must serve with the dept for one year before they can advance to the next level of training, ie. EMT-B, EMT-I, EMT-P. Same for firefighting, 36 hr, 120 hr, 240 hr class.
    ...what is a 36 hr? I am guessing that the 120 hr and 240 hr roughly correspond to what here we call FF1 and FF2, though our FF1 is 196 hours and our FF2 is 184 hrs. But what do you cover in 36 hr? Is it like an orientation type of thing?

    Anyway, while it sucks that you have had the problems you have had, it still sounds to me like part of the problem is with your recruitment process, and you are letting on too many people who are joining for the wrong reasons.

    One thing you might consider is having people do the EMT and medic stuff through local colleges rather than the academy. Because they would then be in a standard semester, getting an EMT-B will take a year, so you will have them as a FR for nearly that long. And someone going for a medic, you would have as an EMT-I for at least 3-4 semesters before they finished their coursework.

    I'd rather pay for a guy I immediately lose than put in place a policy that might cause 3 guys not to go to training.

    Leave a comment:


  • doublej986
    replied
    I almost forgot.....

    I am in the process of trying to pass R&R's through our membership to require each member who wants training other than 36 hr FF or EMT-B to submit a letter of intent to me before taking any class. I have to approve it then take it to the Finance Committee for further approval and then they must serve with the dept for one year before they can advance to the next level of training, ie. EMT-B, EMT-I, EMT-P. Same for firefighting, 36 hr, 120 hr, 240 hr class.

    Leave a comment:


  • doublej986
    replied
    Well, to answer some questions, we too have a contract a member must sign stating the same as everyone else, "play or pay". The problem is, we had a couple that went through 36 hour class and then EMT-B. They moved out of our acceptable boundaries for being a member and were told they would have to reimburse the dept. They basically told us they were not going to pay for s**t! We never saw them when they were on the dept. To sue someone in small claims is more than the cost of the class, so why bother? It's not that we are hurting for money. We are just tired of people joining to get training with the sole intention of getting a job afterwards and bailing on us. It has happened alot. WE recently had a member ask for the dept. to pay for his medic class. Keep in mind, he is employed by a private ambulance service. The membership offered to give him $500 opposed to $3700 roughly. He refused it and got angry with us. I told him if he had participated more and shown up on runs, we would have given more and we didn't have to give the $500.

    He recently asked my Asst. Chief of Squads if the dept. would pay for some of his class. He was denied and we haven't seen him since.

    I would gladly allow any member to advance in training, provided they put in their time and show up once in a while. We have a new guy who just finished his 240 class that we paid for. He now wants to take EMT-B class and an officer class. He never shows up for anything other than something huge and even then he is a pain in the butt. He was denied the officer class and I am probably going to deny him the EMT-B class until he has been around longer and "proved" himself. Until that time, No way.
    Last edited by doublej986; 01-10-2007, 12:41 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • randsc
    replied
    Originally posted by WMFF12 View Post
    Umm...
    Well, training is definately, and STRONGLY encouraged here, and I can't remember ever having a problem with staffing, or funding.

    The angle that we come from (and the problem I suspect that other Vollie FD's have), is not to steer people away from training, but to mitigate the "stepping stone" effect.

    Not every one's wallet is deep enough to absorb the cost of guys who want to pull up thier stakes once they get thier card. It's an investment to both sides, one side gives up thier time, to learn, the other pays, and would graciously like to see a return on that investment. Whether it be 1 or 2 years, or a long time.

    Rand... it's nice to see a fellow Deptartment share the same mantra.

    So I am back to :

    "If you are losing a lot shortly after they train up, you have a problem with your recruitment/hiring process."

    Anything that discourages members from training is, IMHO, a bad idea, and will cost you more in the long run.

    Leave a comment:


  • WMFF12
    replied
    Originally posted by randsc View Post
    ...are taking too much training? Most volunteer departments would love to be in that situation. Our mantra is "training, training, training."

    If you lose a few shortly after they train up, like the post above said, that's the cost of doing business.

    If you are losing a lot shortly after they train up, you have a problem with your recruitment/hiring process.

    I would never want to put in place a system that would have the effect of discouraging people from attending training.

    Umm...
    Well, training is definately, and STRONGLY encouraged here, and I can't remember ever having a problem with staffing, or funding.

    The angle that we come from (and the problem I suspect that other Vollie FD's have), is not to steer people away from training, but to mitigate the "stepping stone" effect.

    Not every one's wallet is deep enough to absorb the cost of guys who want to pull up thier stakes once they get thier card. It's an investment to both sides, one side gives up thier time, to learn, the other pays, and would graciously like to see a return on that investment. Whether it be 1 or 2 years, or a long time.

    Rand... it's nice to see a fellow Deptartment share the same mantra.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrianB35
    replied
    Our Chief like us to get FF1&2, Hazmat and MFR as soon as we can. I've been here just over a year and have all done except my MFR which I plan on starting soon. They pay for everything and yes I could bail, but why? I'm a vollie with a full time job.

    I think some places should institute what we have at my employeer. You want your BS or MBA or MS. Fine, we'll pay, but you have to work for a minimum of two years after you get your Degree otherwise you have to pay back whatever X/24 is left.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    FF1 training - free. EMT-B training - free.

    By the time someone has put the effort/time into completing both of those, we know whether they will be staying with us for a while or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • XNA1590
    replied
    Shaggin after class

    At my last department if they paid for you to take a class like FFI/II or EMT you had to sign a contract with them that you would remain an active member for at least 1 year. Hope this is helpful.

    Leave a comment:


  • randsc
    replied
    So your problem is that people...

    ...are taking too much training? Most volunteer departments would love to be in that situation. Our mantra is "training, training, training."

    If you lose a few shortly after they train up, like the post above said, that's the cost of doing business.

    If you are losing a lot shortly after they train up, you have a problem with your recruitment/hiring process.

    I would never want to put in place a system that would have the effect of discouraging people from attending training.

    Leave a comment:

300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

Collapse

Upper 300x250

Collapse

Taboola

Collapse

Leader

Collapse
Working...
X