Does our town need a ladder?

[GPM123]

I have been asked by the Town to conduct a Needs audit / Report. To identify if our town should look at a Quint or Pumper, to replace a pumper we now have.

Is there a template I can follow, or how would you invision doing it?
Thanks.

[mcaldwell]

ISO has a model. Up here it was 5-6 residential buildings 5 stories or higher, and they recommend an aerial. We passed that mark a decade ago, and finally got our ladder about two years ago.

We couldn't get squat done on our own, so we had an independent insurance industry contractor do a study for our community, and then gave the recommendations to the district. They met them all.

Just one idea.

[Catch22]

If I remember right, ISO's requirements are 5 buildings higher than three stories, with a rate fire flow of 2,500 gpm, or a combination of the two (3 3-story and two with rated flow of <2,500 gpm).

[mcaldwell]

If I remember right, ISO's requirements are 5 buildings higher than three stories, with a rate fire flow of 2,500 gpm, or a combination of the two (3 3-story and two with rated flow of <2,500 gpm).

You could be right there...

[GPM123]

I recommended the 3rd party Insurance route. Council does not want to pay that $$.

Where would I find the ISO information?

[FyredUp]

Chief,

Go to the ISO website at http://www.iso.com/products/2400/prod2404.html

Okay, now to my opinion of whether you NEED a ladder truck or not.

A ladder truck is of course needed to reach taller buildings especially when ground ladders of sufficient height are either unavailable or impractical due to weight and manpower issues. But another reason for a ladder truck is horizontal reach. Sometimes it isn't really how high can you reach but how far out can you reach.

Let me ask you a few questions...

Are you looking at a true quint? One with enough compartment space to carry a complete compliment of engine and truck tools? Or are you looking at what I call an enhanced engine? An engine with an aerial device on top of it. There is a major difference in both utilization and capabilities.

If you get it approved get at least a 100 foot stick and somewhere between a 1500 and 2000 pump. Why? Because I said so damn it!! (chill out guys gpm123 and I are old friends). Okay now for a serious answer...100 foot gives you more options and allows your community to grow and not outgrow your aerial so quickly. The bigger pump allows you more flexibility in fire attack, allows it to fully supply itself, AND aids your ISO rating.

Good luck my Brother....heck we are seriously talking along the same lines here for our next rig in a few years.

FyredUp

[skcfa1523]

We are expirencing some problems along those same lines as you fellas.

We merged 3 separate departments into one about 9 years ago. We are an all on-call dept. covering 144 sq/mi. out of 3 stations. We have a roster of 50-60 personnel, who run approximately 1200 calls a year, in cluding MVA's and EMS, in an all rural area. Not to mention the mutual aid calls we run. In 9 years we have purchased 34 air packs (kept. the old tanks), a TIC, and replaced turnout gear (7 sets per year for the last 3 years).

Almost forgot, we replaced a 1976 FMC tanker with a 1996 U.S. Tanker for $140,000. Nice truck don't get me wrong but, USED? WHY?

Our newest apparatus is a 1997, which happens to be the most active engine in our fleet. Our Maintenance costs are through the roof. Our board of Commisioners can't seem to recognize the need to begin replacing these apparatus. I am looking for a suttle way to drive the point home that we need newer apparatus, with more multifunctional capabilities without loosing my job in the process. Can anyone help, or tell me I'm way out in left field with my thinking? I don't understand this bs...

[mcaldwell]

Our newest apparatus is a 1997, which happens to be the most active engine in our fleet. Our Maintenance costs are through the roof. Our board of Commisioners can't seem to recognize the need to begin replacing these apparatus. I am looking for a suttle way to drive the point home that we need newer apparatus, with more multifunctional capabilities without loosing my job in the process. Can anyone help, or tell me I'm way out in left field with my thinking? I don't understand this bs...

Cost-Benefit-Analysis.

Examine the expense related to maintaining the current unit(s), and determine what that dollar value is.

Then look at what the lease or financing rates would be for a replacement (don't forget trade-in or resale value for your current rigs). If they are close, you can probably swing it over with the political side of things. Reduced response times, improved FF safety, increased capabilities = More Lives and Property Saved. Don't forget to see if it will get your ISO rating improved too, which often translates to insurance $$'s saved.

Lots of departments around here go used for high-end apparatus like ladders, but only if you have some handy FF's and a good town mechanic who can keep the units up. If not, you are just looking for excessive downtime and expense to ship the truck off to an authorized service center every year to keep up with the age related maintenance.

[GPM123]

You got me there sale's person LOL
I don't know the dif between Quint and enhanced engine. Lets just call it an aireal device for now.
I was on the ISO site for awhile but could not find a template to follow?
I will have to tell what recognized standard I followed to reach the results.
NOTE: If after the exercise it turns out we are ok with another pumper, so be it.

I hear you loud and clear on the pump size and length.

[dday05]

I would do what benefits your fd the most and not what ISO says or recommends. With todays construction I'd rather put my people on a roof from a ladder truck but thats just my opinion. Do what best suits your dept and go from there. I feel if you tell your elected village officials that if you would go with a pumper instead of an expensive ladder truck just to save money and your fd could really use a ladder truck they'll expect that any time your dept goes to get a truck. Thats just my opinion. BE SAFE

[ChiefDog]

I recommended the 3rd party Insurance route. Council does not want to pay that $$.

Where would I find the ISO information?

You may want to reach out to ISO directly. I do know that it has to originate from the Fire Chief or City/Town Manager or Coucil for them to reply. (So they don't get bombed with inquiries that won't be acted upon.)

I also seem to remember the 5 or more 35feet or higher buildings is the suggested ladder purchase by ISO.

I agree with FyredUp, If you got the big motor that most aerials will have/require.... big pump!

[LaFireEducator]

Look at your stats....

How many times would a ladder run on reported/possible structure fires?

How many times on alarms trips (which ISO does not actually look at), if you choose to run it?

How many times in a typical year would it actually be used?

How rapidly are the number of builds increasing in your area where a ladder may be needed? What do you forsee 5 years down the road?

Is there a another department close enough with a ladder that would be willing to run automatic mutual aid to your structure fire calls. ISO will count aid if it is automatic.

A ladder truck is a big investment, and has a high maintanence price. If you would use it infrequently, maybe you and a neighboring department could work out a deal where you might provide automatic aid in the form of an engine or tanker(s) for the response of thier ladder. They might appreciatte the opporotunity to use thier skills more frequently.

[ChiefDog]

Look at your stats....

How many times would a ladder run on reported/possible structure fires?

How many times on alarms trips (which ISO does not actually look at), if you choose to run it?

How many times in a typical year would it actually be used?

How rapidly are the number of builds increasing in your area where a ladder may be needed? What do you forsee 5 years down the road?

Is there a another department close enough with a ladder that would be willing to run automatic mutual aid to your structure fire calls. ISO will count aid if it is automatic.

A ladder truck is a big investment, and has a high maintanence price. If you would use it infrequently, maybe you and a neighboring department could work out a deal where you might provide automatic aid in the form of an engine or tanker(s) for the response of thier ladder. They might appreciatte the opporotunity to use thier skills more frequently.

When ISO came to visit us last time the evaluator looked at our records and wanted to know if the ladder responded to the Reported Structure Fires. He also said a structure fire is a reported fire that is in, on or attached to a structure. (Chimneys, stoves etc are in or attached to a structure.) We changed our approach once we got a reliable ladder truck and I told the guys, more than once, "If it is in on or attached to it is a 2 and 1 response! (2 engines and the ladder) After a while they got it, and I heard "the Chief said roll the aerial until we know otherwise...." Fire Alarms are reported fires by the automated system.... So don't shoot yourself in the foot by your policies and procedures. One town I know of about 10 years ago responded to a "frequent flyer alarm system" with a pickup. As a paid department this did not fly with ISO and with the other issues they had they were rated a 10! The new chief had to fix a lot of stuff and get things running the way ISO expected to get the paid department rated better than "NO FIRE DEPARTMENT" that 10 effectively is.

I also know that having another department respond with their aerial could effect their ISO rating so they may not be willing to put wear and tear on their "big investment" because you won't.

[Catch22]

GPM--So what is the make-up of the construction in your town? Do you have several taller buildings (3+ stories) or industrial? I know ISO has been cited, which can be a very convincing tool when you start touting insurance savings to the city council. But there's a lot of factors others have listed in here.

I'm kinda curious now just how you're town's laid out and all.

[Bones42]

Man, I'd hate to be part of department that decides their run responses/protocols based on ISO ratings.