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  • #31
    Engine First by protocol (for equipment), but our Light Rescue is much quicker on our twisty mtn roads, so regardeless, when they leave together the Rescue always arrives first on-scene.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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    • #32
      Engine and Rescue on all unknowns and P.I.s. Pin-ins get an extra Engine.

      All Engines(3 of them) and the Rescue(1) have full sets of extrication equipment.

      It makes it nice when a hydraulic unit takes a $&!^.
      Stay Safe & Bring 'em Home!
      Eddie C.
      I.A.F.F. Local 3008

      "Doin' it for lives n' property"

      ** "The comments made here are this person's views and not that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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      • #33
        Are you saying that you roll a engine driver only to an MVC, where you most likely will need manpower, especially if there it is extrication?
        Yes sir, that is precisely what I am saying.

        We're a combination dept with F/T career staffing at every station. 4 out of 10 stations are "Single Resource" (ie one FAE or CPT staffing per shift). 2 of the remaining 6 are tripled-up (2 FAE and 1 CPT per shift), and the final four are doubled up (may be FAE/FAE or FAE/CPT).
        As I stated page 1, typical "Unknown MVA" is 2 closest stations dispatched, if there is definite pin-in a BC is also dispatched (this's a very new policy, and I'm not sure why the sudden change--previously CPTs were considered sufficient to IC a pin-in MVA).
        Volunteer company pagers are programmed with Station tones, so as the station tones drop, the Company is automatically alerted as well. Volunteers respond POV to the scene and assist as needed.

        Now, here's the catch: in our system, there're three levels of volunteer--V1, V2, and V3(FAE). Only V3s may drive any apparatus (including Patrols--which don't require a special license to drive nor much in the way of special training to operate)... most Patrols and Engines, with the exception of Truck-7 (our one aerial ladder, which seats 6), and Engine-7 (seats 5), all seat only two firefighters.
        With the exception of the 3-staffing stations (and 2 "double-up" stations), each station has only one Engine, and ONE Patrol.
        Companies may have up to 15 members...kinda hard to crowd us all into two units, eh? ;-)
        My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

        IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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        • #34
          damn, you guys are wusses . when we have a call for an MVA, we roll an ambulance. ok, well, not us, the EMS rolls an ambulance. they handle MVAs. maybe two ambulances if there are multiple patients. that's it. no rescue, no engine, not even a chief. typical staffing for a rig is 2 EMTs, volunteer squads sometimes have 3 or 4 people on a rig. FD is generally not even dispatched for the call.

          the only time FD gets to respond is for an extrication, or for a vehicle fire. for a pin job, rescue rolls first. for a vehicle fire, engine rolls first. my chief believes that apparatus should be used for single purposes (ie, no pump on the ladder, no tools on the engine, etc), and if you need that functionality, either respond with an additional piece or call mutual aid for that apparatus.
          Last edited by drparasite; 08-02-2006, 09:22 AM. Reason: clarrification of EMS's roles
          If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

          FF/EMT/DBP

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          • #35
            *LOL* (quick hijack)

            my chief believes that apparatus should be used for single purposes (ie, no pump on the ladder, no tools on the engine, etc), and if you need that functionality, either respond with an additional piece or call mutual aid for that apparatus.
            See, our philosophy is the exact opposite... we are all generalists. We have a (yep, one, just one, and that's a recent addition at that) Truck, but no "Truck Company", all Companies are by tradition titled "Engine Co X", but in reality each Engine carries all tools in addition to hoselines, and each Company is expected to be able to carry out both Engine and Truck Co duties. The upside is that anybody who's interior-qualified can do either interior attack or entry/search... the downside of course is as the old adage goes: "Jack of all trades, master of none."

            /hijack
            My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

            IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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            • #36
              Originally posted by the1141man
              See, our philosophy is the exact opposite... we are all generalists. We have a (yep, one, just one, and that's a recent addition at that) Truck, but no "Truck Company", all Companies are by tradition titled "Engine Co X", but in reality each Engine carries all tools in addition to hoselines, and each Company is expected to be able to carry out both Engine and Truck Co duties. The upside is that anybody who's interior-qualified can do either interior attack or entry/search... the downside of course is as the old adage goes: "Jack of all trades, master of none."

              /hijack
              see, I agree with you, but the downside to doing that is you end up doing too much with too few people. ie, you have a rescue pumper, staffed with 4 FFs. can you operate a primary tool, a backup tool, have an officer running the show, pull a charged handline, monitor the pump, do stablization/cribbing, provide patient care all with just those 4 firefighters? again, those 4 FFs are probably trained do all those tasks, but you end up trying to do too much with too few people. hence the reason why my chief would rather call additional companies to the scene than have 1 company stretched too thin and possibly take shortcuts to accomplish their goal.
              If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

              FF/EMT/DBP

              Comment


              • #37
                can you operate a primary tool, a backup tool, have an officer running the show, pull a charged handline, monitor the pump, do stablization/cribbing, provide patient care all with just those 4 firefighters? again, those 4 FFs are probably trained do all those tasks, but you end up trying to do too much with too few people. hence the reason why my chief would rather call additional companies to the scene than have 1 company stretched too thin and possibly take shortcuts to accomplish their goal.
                Also hence the reason we dispatch two stations (thus two E/Cos) on initial assignment of an MVA. ;-)

                Bad side, of course, with vollies you may get 2 guys from each Co, or no guys, or 10 guys. All depends, though Mon-Thurs evenings between 1830-2130 being the best time to have the brown stuff hit the whirlygig, since that's when Companies have their training meetings! *LOL*
                Good side, being a combo dept, you at least get the equipment rolling right away with whatever staffing is there at the station, rather than waiting for people to show up at the station, gear up, get sufficient staffing to get the engine on the road, etc, etc...
                My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

                IACOJ--West Coast PITA

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by nozzelvfd
                  I was wonder what most other departments choose to run first due to an MVA, there engine or rescue. I am talking strictly fire related here, not ambulances. For example you get a call for an MVA with injuries is your rescue out the door first or your engine?
                  We don't get called for most MVA's with injuries. EMS does. If PD on scene believes extrication MAY be necessary, we are dispatched and send an engine and a truck. EMS does our extrication so we are simply taking care of hazards and assisting with manpower.
                  "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                  • #39
                    We are a small town. Our SOP's say three trucks respond to in town or out of town depending. However, our SOP's were written before we got a dedicated rescue truck. So, in town, the rescue truck and two pumpers. Out of town, one pumper, the rescue truck and a tanker. On accidents, it depends on the circumstances. In any event, the rescue truck goes out. It will be followed by whatever we may need next, usually, a pumper and if there is a fire that is large enough, the tanker as a just in case.

                    We cover an area several townships large as well as the city we are in.

                    The Doc is out now.
                    General McAuliffe said it best, "Nuts".

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                    • #40
                      Short answer: We run a Truck (105' quint) 1st due on MVA's

                      Long answer: At station 2 we run our Truck first out on MVA's. It carries a combi tool and enough stabilization equipment to handle most MVA's as well as 500 gal of water. Our other station (station 1) runs a mini pumper with a similar set up (combi tool, O-cutter, 250 gal). For accidents with entrapment we still run the Truck first due out of station 2, but station 1 runs a Rescue/Engine (squad) with a full compliment of extrication and stabilization equipment.

                      www.palmerfire.org

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bones42
                        We don't get called for most MVA's with injuries. EMS does. If PD on scene believes extrication MAY be necessary, we are dispatched and send an engine and a truck. EMS does our extrication so we are simply taking care of hazards and assisting with manpower.
                        Just a curiosity question.... do you find a potential for time to be lost if the PD is several minutes out from the scene and doesn't realize they need extrication until he/she arrives?

                        We are a volly dept. Our SOP is always Engine and Heavy Rescue to all MVA's. Engine rolls first followed by Rescue. Fortunately, I think because our volunteers get paid, we have never had a staffing issue so our response numbers are always more than adequete and the rescue is in route usually less than 1-2 minutes of the engine. Seems to work well for us cuz the engine crew will size up scene and plan any strategy so when the rescue arrives 1-2 minutes later we already are set with a plan and know ahead of arrival exactly what needs to be done.

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                        • #42
                          wow, this debate had happened at my firehouse and different guys had there opinions as well. I asked this question because we roll an engine first then our rescue. Now are engine has a set of hurst tools on it. What started the discussion at my firehouse was a new member we just accepted. He was already state certified as he had moved from another part of the state for his job purposes. In his old department they ran the rescue first and was so use to it he had asked weather or not we had ever thought about it. I figured I would see what other volunteer departments did just for kicks. I myself would prefer the engine first. You never know what you are going to find when you get there. I would rather have the road blocked and water ready just in case.
                          You need only two tools: WD-40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.

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                          • #43
                            ameryfd, our coverage area is 1.5 sq miles. There is no delay. Within a minute of receiving the call, PD has a unit on scene. Within another 2 minutes, (if PD thinks extrication is needed) there will be an ambulance, the extrication truck, an engine, and now a tower ladder. Ambo will have 3 or 4 members, extrication truck will have another 3 or 4, the engine and TL will have 5-6 each.

                            Response time wise, it's nice covering a small area.
                            "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ameryfd
                              Just a curiosity question.... do you find a potential for time to be lost if the PD is several minutes out from the scene and doesn't realize they need extrication until he/she arrives?
                              well, that is where good dispatching comes into play. a good 911 dispatched should ask if anyone is trapped in the car (I don't remember the exact wording for the question). Not only that, most MVCs don't require extrication. Further, even if a person is technically pinned in the car doesn't always mean that they are in a life or death emergency (so that two minutes isn't going to make much of a difference in the overall outcome).

                              btw, I fully support rolling the engine first provided it has extrication equipment. put a set of powerhawk cutters, 4 step chocks, and some 4x4 cribbing on the engine, and you should be good. this way the engine crew can start the extrication operation until the heavy rescue arrives with more powerful tools and a greater supply of stuff. but that is just my opinion.
                              If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                              FF/EMT/DBP

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Depending on call but most often our heavy is out first. We can allways get an engine coming mutual aid or we can short staff and leave a driver for the engine, due to a 30 min run to the trama center (or more in bad weather) and parts of our area being 10 min from station having a Fully equiped Heavy Rescue on Scene is top Priority for us to keep extracation times down to as short a time as we can, We train for average times of 12-15 min stabilize,secure,doors,roof,dash, with 4 man crew.

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