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  • Accident responce.

    Last night our department took delivery of a full set of new extrication tools. We paid for them with an insurence co. grant. We purchased a new TNT power unit, cutter, spreader,and ram. Hurst stabilizing jacks, a high lift jack and a rescue plate. Replaceing some very old tools.

    It has been said that you don't need everybody to respond to an accident. We have 24 members, some respond POV. Thats to many for a freeway incident.

    Are all of your members trained in extrication? Do you use a full crew responce to a mva. If not, how do you decide which firefighters will go to the scene?

  • #2
    We staff apparatus, and then certain apparatus are dispatched to an incident depending on the nature of the call. A ordinary MVC gets two ambulances and rescue engine or heavy rescue squad depending on who's first due the accident is in. If the accident is reported serious it gets the above, an additional heavy rescue squad and the ALS medic unit.

    Minimum staffing for the rescue or squad is 3, but we normally roll out with more than that. SOP is that only officers can respond POV. We try to keep that to a minimum for auto accidents to avoid blocking the roads.

    Not everybody is qualified to ride the Squad. We require either Rescue Tech or FFII as well as in-house training to make sure members know how to operate our equipment.

    Comment


    • #3
      First strong suggestion:

      No POVs on a limited access highway whatsoever. If at all possible, minimize POVs to MVAs altogether. Respond to station; ride in on FD apparatus with workable crew sizes.

      Generalizing since I don't know how your apparatus is organized, one engine and crew should be devoted to scene stabilization (includes being prepared for fire control during extrication). The rescue/engine handles patient care and extrication. If you're on a limited access highway, a third engine "up traffic" from the scene for lane blocking is a very good idea.

      Extrication and EMS training should be a requirement to ride whatever apparatus is designated for extrication. If you're going to be responding to MVAs, everyone should be trained on basic techniques to stabilize vehicles to secure a scene; lay out an effective traffic cone pattern; and issued approved traffic safety vests.

      All that is in addition to the transport ambulance.
      "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
      sigpic
      The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

      Comment


      • #4
        Anyone expected to ride the truck better know how to use the tools. All our members are trained on at least the basics on how to use the tools.. An untrained firefighter can be more dangerous on scene then no firefighter.

        I would tend to agree that having 24 members POV to a highway is too many. I'd call it dangerous. My department does not respond POV to the scene. If there isn't an in-station duty crew then we POV to the station and respond to the scene as a crew. This also makes it easier to 'decide which firefighters go to the scene' since that can be organized at the station and not before the pager goes off, or on the side of a highway.

        For us it's usually the first four-six qualified members (Driver, Officer, FFx{2..4}) to get to the station will get the Rescue out the door. Members that arrive to the station after that will listen to the reports and determine if the Engine is also needed, or stand by to handle any additional runs.

        While I have been on some accidents where 24 members were neeed, I'd agree that its a rare situation. I'm certainly opposed to any POV response to a highway. POV to the station and respond with the truck as a crew.
        So you call this your free country
        Tell me why it costs so much to live
        -3dd

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        • #5
          Extrication training

          Originally posted by HAFD112 View Post
          It has been said that you don't need everybody to respond to an accident. We have 24 members, some respond POV. Thats to many for a freeway incident.

          Are all of your members trained in extrication? Do you use a full crew responce to a mva. If not, how do you decide which firefighters will go to the scene?
          We try to train all our personnel on vehicle extrication. Those that don't want to do it we assign different roles on the scene.

          Too many POV's on an accident scene can be and cause other problems. While it may be almost impossible for rural area's to eliminate POV response (Different departments have different situations), we do try to limit them.

          My recommendation is simple. As soon as an apparatus get's filled with mostly trained people, go.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks,

            But we only have commercial cab trucks, only driver and passenger. To get six people and no pov would take three trucks.
            We don't respond to all accidents, only when requested by EMS. We are considering going to all MVA if reported to have injuries.

            The problem is: If you limit the responder to never go POV then only the people who live/work closest to the station would ever get to go. Those who live/work a few miles away would get to sweep the floor. I think this could be very bad for moral. " Why train?, I never get to go anyway".

            120-130 calls per year, 100 square miles, one station.

            I know there is no good answer but, all info is good.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HAFD112 View Post
              The problem is: If you limit the responder to never go POV then only the people who live/work closest to the station would ever get to go. Those who live/work a few miles away would get to sweep the floor. I think this could be very bad for moral. " Why train?, I never get to go anyway".

              120-130 calls per year, 100 square miles, one station.
              My first answer to the first bit would be in-house duty crews. They tend to spread the load between all members, rather then just those that live close. They also provide good training time.

              On the other hand, at < 130 calls it may be hard to justify duty crews.. Why have 4 people standing by at the station 5 nights a week if you only run 1-2 calls a week. Training and Camaraderie to incentives, but standing by the station with no calls drains morale too.

              As for POV, I don't know what to say if you can only fit 2 in the cab. Got a tailboard?
              So you call this your free country
              Tell me why it costs so much to live
              -3dd

              Comment


              • #8
                We have only a few tools that we can use for heavy extrication (prying tools, saws, etc) - we have no hydraulics. If we had to, we could open a car up. Not everyone is trained in extrication (can't teach 'em if they don't show up for the training, but that's another thread), but our core responders are capable.

                We have neighboring departments with hydraulics and at least one is dispatched automatically for MVA's in our district. We turn 'em around when we confirm there is no entrapment. We'd like to actually dispatch them only when there is a strong likelyhood of entrapment, but there are political issues involved. By the time dispatch finishes gathering info about the event, they usually have a pretty good idea whether the tools will be needed.

                Our folks take care of scene stabilization, traffic control, and EMS first response. An independent ambulance squad takes care of transport.
                Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Responding

                  Originally posted by HAFD112 View Post
                  Thanks,

                  But we only have commercial cab trucks, only driver and passenger. To get six people and no pov would take three trucks.
                  We don't respond to all accidents, only when requested by EMS. We are considering going to all MVA if reported to have injuries.

                  The problem is: If you limit the responder to never go POV then only the people who live/work closest to the station would ever get to go. Those who live/work a few miles away would get to sweep the floor. I think this could be very bad for moral. " Why train?, I never get to go anyway".

                  120-130 calls per year, 100 square miles, one station.

                  I know there is no good answer but, all info is good.
                  What may work for one department may not work for another, and there's usually no perfect answers.

                  We have similar vehicles. One way to limit POV response is to have individuals that will not be riding on an apparatus but still responding to meet at a given location, an individual who has an SUV or crew cab pick-up can take other people with them in their vehicle. This way some POV vehicles can be eliminated from the scene. If your department is small enough, simple communication for coordination on meeting at a certain spot can solve any confusion about who's going in what vehicle. If your department is too big for that, meaning that the air would be tied up in radio traffic with people trying to coordinate, then I'd suggest exchanging cell phone numbers.

                  It's not the perfect way, but we coordinate via radio's regarding who's going in what vehicle, and we know what vehicle(s) will be responding.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    All of our members respond to the station, to gear up and get trucks rolling out. We run a 5-man squad and a 5-man truck crew. If we respond into a neighboring depts area that dept is dispatched also, usually with an engine and/or a tender. No POV on-scene other than the chief or whoevers IC.
                    First reponders also bring their POV(s). We are in a rural setting.

                    All of our new members get sent to an extrication school put on by the company that sells us our equipment.http://www.5alarm.com/training.php. We also train in a 3 month rotation on extrication

                    One thing we tell all of our members is that if you don't feel comfortable using the tools or don't want to see anything bad don't get onto the squad. Not everyone likes the sight of blood or whatever else you might encounter, that does not make you less of a firefighter, just not everone likes those types of calls. You don't want one of your crew "freezing up" or losing their lunch at one of these scenes.
                    "If I'm not back in five minutes.. wait longer."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Responders

                      Originally posted by sq51kmg365 View Post
                      One thing we tell all of our members is that if you don't feel comfortable using the tools or don't want to see anything bad don't get onto the squad. Not everyone likes the sight of blood or whatever else you might encounter, that does not make you less of a firefighter, just not everone likes those types of calls. You don't want one of your crew "freezing up" or losing their lunch at one of these scenes.
                      We feel the same way. Not only for what mentioned, but also PTSD. It's the officer's responsibility to look out after those below them, including their mental health. Don't want to lose a good volunteer because of it. I agree very much that it doesn't make an individual any less of a firefighter. We are human. Like your dept., we tell new recruits that if there's an area they prefer not to be involved in, let us know for the above reason.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Depending on manpower, we try to roll 3 trucks on highway/interstate calls: Primary is our Rescue/Pumper, which has all of our extrication tools. Second is our newest Engine which has all of the latest NFPA/DOT lights and reflectors. This truck is used as the buffer vehicle between the fire/EMS crews and oncoming traffic. Finally, we use our utility truck which positions itself 1/4 to 1/2 mile from the scene. It is used to begin traffic calming ahead of the accident scene. In the event of a vehicle fire on the highway/interstate we'll also roll our tanker, just in case.

                        We try to train all of our members in the use of stabilization (Rescue 42), cribbing, air bags, and extrication tools. What we make sure to tell everyone is that if you don't feel comfortable using the tools, or if you get squeamish around blood and gore, go ahead and do one of the many jobs that don't require you to be involved in the actual extrication (staging tools, traffic control, setting up scene lights, etc.).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ands.............

                          We do more Rescue than Fire, so we're set up for it. Our People are already at the Station, and are on the Road in less than a minute. We operate a "Fire" Engine, a Rescue Engine and a Heavy Rescue Squad (See my website link below) as well as 2 Ambulances. POV Response is rare, and usually happens when a Member finds an incident when he/she is already on the Road. Our Crews vary, but 5-8 on the Squad is common, along with 2-3 on the Ambulance. Things like positioning a piece of Apparatus for blocking, wearing Vests, etc is second nature to us. Since we control the whole Ball Game, (Fire,EMS,Extrication,etc) We have no problems.
                          Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                          In memory of
                          Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                          Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                          IACOJ Budget Analyst

                          I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                          www.gdvfd18.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HAFD112 View Post
                            Thanks,

                            But we only have commercial cab trucks, only driver and passenger. To get six people and no pov would take three trucks.
                            We don't respond to all accidents, only when requested by EMS. We are considering going to all MVA if reported to have injuries.

                            The problem is: If you limit the responder to never go POV then only the people who live/work closest to the station would ever get to go. Those who live/work a few miles away would get to sweep the floor. I think this could be very bad for moral. " Why train?, I never get to go anyway".

                            120-130 calls per year, 100 square miles, one station.

                            I know there is no good answer but, all info is good.
                            POV at roadside incidents is bad policy.

                            MVA with extrication needs a minimum of 5. 1 for IC, 1 per patient, 2 for extrication, 1 for traffic\safety officer. If an ambulance shows then they get patient care duties. If over-the-bank rescue is involved add 3 more. It can be done with less people but responder safety is comprimised.

                            My suggestion would be for you to make obtaining a rescue vehicle a priority. A four door f350\3500 chevy\dodge 4X4 can seat 5 and carry much of what you need. This is a must if you respond to many highway incidents. Look for used units at auctions if funding is a problem. They can also be outfitted with 100 gal tanks and small pumps for quick fire attack or as a standby safety line.

                            Do you have a command vehicle?? Maybe equip it with some basic extrication stuff and roll with as many people as it will carry.
                            My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              We take as many as we can for crew right away. But we also try to get an engine or two for traffic as well, especially on the freeway.

                              Comment

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