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SAVEOURVOLUNTEERFIREFIGHTERS .ORG Establishes Straight Talk Website

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  • #16
    This info was posted on this site from the campaign arm of the RCVFA, saveourvolunteerfirefighters. org.

    It represents our 500 volunteer firefighter membership in this struggle to stop our elimination. We specifically set up a different site away from our main site.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
      We specifically set up a different site away from our main site.
      Which makes it look like you're hiding. Nowhere on the saveourtoolongdomainname site does it reference or even mention any affiliation with the RCVFD association. Of course, it also lacks any references or links to any other sites that might carry a less biased or colorful version of the facts.

      If you want intelligent people to support your cause, you need to show them both sides of the issue. Hype and unsupported propaganda will only get you the sheep.
      "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
      sigpic
      The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
        We have plenty of supportive documents, but they take away from our message.
        Translation: They don't support our propaganda so we'd rather nobody read them.

        The Riverside County Fire Department wants to eliminate the volunteer firefighter program, then create a new reserve volunteer firefighter program.
        There's nothing inherently wrong with restructuring. Show us their plan.

        This is essentially cutting the head off the Volunteer Firefighter's Association and the 59 Volunteer Fire Companies giving the County complete control.
        In other words, this isn't about fire protection for the county; it's about a power struggle which the Association appears about to lose permanently. You need to show why this would be a bad thing for anyone other than the Association.

        Orange County Fire took exactly the same tactic when they moved their volunteers into reserves.
        OCFA appears to be a top shelf department. What's wrong with them? Isn't the goal to provide fire protection for the county?

        Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
        The Grand Jury conducted an investigation in 2009 pointing plenty of fingers about the mistreatment of VFFs at the department.
        So? That has nothing to do with restructuring the department. It doesn't take a grand jury to see that there have been long standing problems between the RCFD and RCVFD. Restructuring sounds like one proactive option to fix it. In fact, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE GRAND JURY RECOMMENDED...

        Facts. Not more propaganda, please.
        Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-09-2010, 09:14 AM. Reason: typo
        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
        sigpic
        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
          ...giving the County complete control.
          Which is exactly how many of the fire departments in the mid-Atlantic region operate - the county has full control. The fire station still says "Podunk Volunteer Fire Department" and the trucks are painted and lettered for PVFD, but in reality, the county is in control.

          Those are "full service" fire departments, too. Occasionally they chafe a bit under that control, but generally it works just fine.
          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

          Comment


          • #20
            Thought we'd get more support from a volunteer forum who understands the plight of VFFs.

            You guys must have it pretty good! Or are you paid union FFs cloaked as volunteers?

            Either way this is our struggle and it's real.

            Comment


            • #21
              From the Firehouse

              About DeputyMarshal
              Fire/EMS Agency Affiliation
              Career IAFF
              Years in the Emergency Service
              28
              Biography
              IAFF, IAFC, NFPA, ICC, ARRL, NESA, SFPE, CFMA
              Location
              Connecticut, USA
              Interests
              Valkyrie 1520cc cruiser, computers, gaming, amateur radio
              Occupation
              Career Firefighter
              /EMT, Fire Marshal

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
                Thought we'd get more support from a volunteer forum who understands the plight of VFFs.

                You guys must have it pretty good! Or are you paid union FFs cloaked as volunteers?

                Either way this is our struggle and it's real.
                I appreciate that it is YOUR struggle and it is REAL.

                But I find the headline of this press release
                August 7, 2010 - Fire Department Declares Volunteer Firefighters Enemy Combatants
                misleading and inflammatory.

                The same with this post:
                July 15, 2009 - 2009 Riverside County Grand Jury Report on the mistreatment of Volunteer Firefighters.

                Read the whole document. Also the county fire department's strategic plan.

                So you would rather NOT have paramedic/firefighters on engine companies operating as first responders?

                I can see that there are operational and procedural issues and appreciate your feeling that the volunteers are being pushed out. I understand you do not want to become marginalized like the volunteers in Orange County, CA.

                Coming here hyperventilating about your situation, and then complaining about the reception, is probably not building your network of friends and supporters.

                But what would *I* know about career-volunteer relations in large counties?

                Mike

                Here, let me save you some research time:

                I am a proud active retired member of IAFF Local 2068 (Fairfax County, VA)

                past participant/observer and writer about Prince George's County MD career-volunteer relations and two-hatters. Including this case study
                The Battle over Kentland Ambulance 339: I did not join the VFD to ride an ambulance!

                "FossilMedic" on Firegeezer.com
                Last edited by MikeWard; 08-09-2010, 01:21 PM. Reason: edit, add additional comments

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
                  Thought we'd get more support from a volunteer forum who understands the plight of VFFs.

                  You guys must have it pretty good! Or are you paid union FFs cloaked as volunteers?

                  Either way this is our struggle and it's real.
                  Wow, way to F yourself even more. Congradulations, anyone who might have been sympathetic to whatever this situation is just said 'screw you' and walked away. Most people here are volunteers and probably for longer and with more experience than you. With an attitude like that, you, your ficticious "news headlines" and your strugle can kiss my @ss.

                  Maybe if you didn't come on here like a one-sided rambling lunatic, you have more support. But since you refuse to present this in a fair and unbiased manner for an intelligent discussion, the people here who are fair and intelligent are not going to help you.
                  Last edited by nmfire; 08-09-2010, 01:49 PM.
                  Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    We can be a tough crowd.

                    I'm a 32 year volunteer, with roots in volunteer service that go back much further.

                    That said, I recognize that things change, and for a variety of reasons.

                    If you're fighting to keep the volunteers because they've always been there, you're fighting a losing battle. Same with trying to preserve the "firefighters association."

                    If you're mounting a campaign to show that the volunteers can be a valuable asset to the community, you need to prove how and why that is the case. Build a business case, as I'm fond of saying.

                    And you also need to recognize that roles change and that if you are to preserve the volunteer concept, it may be changed from what it is now.

                    You've said previously that the county wants to form a new reserve firefighter program - would not most of your current volunteers move into that? What's wrong with working with the county to ensure that the program is a success and uses the skill and experience of those members to its fullest.
                    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
                      From the Firehouse

                      About DeputyMarshal
                      What's your point? Anyone here can read a user profile. You appear to be dodging the issue: What is the actual proposal? You aren't making a very good case for yourself.

                      (BTW, what's missing from my profile is that I started out as a volunteer and, until recently, worked in a combination department. As of last year our paid-on-call volunteers were reorganized as part-time firefighters to address problematic income tax issues. Funny thing is, the part-timers are still the same guys they were when they were called volunteers...)
                      Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-09-2010, 01:40 PM.
                      "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                      sigpic
                      The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Most paid FFs started out as volunteers and I've seen them turn against VFFs later based on the union culture.

                        I'm an officer and been on the department 5 years with 4 years prior military FF experience and 1 year as seasonal. I know FFs, the fire service and the culture.

                        Maybe things are good in your departments and your relationship with the paid members/union are also good. I can tell you it's not good in ours.

                        I wasn't looking to "litigate the case" here on this forum. Just wanted to let you guys know what's going on in Riverside County.
                        Last edited by RVC_FF; 08-09-2010, 03:53 PM. Reason: typo

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
                          Just wanted to let you guys know what's going on in Riverside County.
                          So at what point do you plan to begin? So far you've given us nothing but your biased one-sided fake news articles and refused to actually provide any real information. And in between, you try (unsuccessfully) you smear people here you know nothing about. If your attitude represents that of the rest of the volunteers, it is probably better you be disbanded and placed under county control.
                          Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
                            Most paid FFs started out as volunteers and I've seen them turn against VFFs later based on the union culture.

                            I'm an officer and been on the department 5 years with 4 years prior military FF experience and 1 year as seasonal. I know FFs, the fire service and the culture.

                            Maybe things are good in your departments and your relationship with the paid members/union are also good. I can tell you it's not good in ours.

                            I wasn't looking to "litigate the case" here on this forum. Just wanted to let you guys know what's going on in Riverside County.
                            RVC_FF:

                            Your battered spouse approach is why some career firefighters with a hometown volunteer background "turn on volunteers."

                            So, some straight talk from the Evil Empire:

                            1) Need a clear, simple message. What does the 500 volunteers want to accomplish working with the 1000+ CalFire employees and 126 county employees.

                            I see nuggets of half-a-dozen concepts, but none are crystal clear to me.

                            The message has to resonate with the voters (and supervisors), not with fellow volunteers. Need to move your organizational gaze from your navel to where the community is going.

                            PS, the cost savings seem to have little effect on the community that influences the political process. Don't know why, just that it does.

                            (Last two items are from a former senior staffer to a senator in an east coast state with a lot of combination departments.)

                            2) Focus on what you want the VFD to be in 2012, not what it was like in 1992. A lot of the stuff published on your website reads like a he-said-she-said divorce narrative.

                            3) There appears to be an opening for the VFD to determine their destiny within the county strategic plan. THIS is where you can clarify the operational and deployment issues in a collaborative way.

                            4) Be cautious when advocating a lesser level of service in order to accomodate volunteer participation. If CalFire is using their municipal staffing model (Captain - Engineer - PM/firefighter) I would NOT be supportive of downgrading staffing to a non-paramedic capable engine so the VFD can have more spots to "play."

                            I know that requiring the firefighter position to be paramedic credentialed eliminates most volunteer members.

                            5) Need to increase the politicial clout of the VFD. I spent a career in a right-to-work state where binding arbitration was illegal and the state refused to recognize organized labor. Political sweat equity and $$ contributions is how we moved our agenda forward.

                            I appreciate that your situation stinks. My suggestions are in response to the items posted on your website, your responses here and my experience watching other combination departments struggle with change.

                            I have no idea of the details of California municipal law, CalFire contracting or the nuances of Riverside County.

                            Thanks for your service to our country. Turf, power and politics are a challenge.

                            Mike
                            Last edited by MikeWard; 08-09-2010, 05:33 PM. Reason: revise last paragraph.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thanks for your reply

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RVC_FF View Post
                                Most paid FFs started out as volunteers and I've seen them turn against VFFs later based on the union culture.
                                So? I've seen quite a few volunteers turn against paid firefighters with as little provocation of less. What's your point?

                                I'm an officer and been on the department 5 years with 4 years prior military FF experience and 1 year as seasonal. I know FFs, the fire service and the culture.
                                I'm glad to hear that you know it all in just 5 years as a firefighter. But what does that have to do with the situation in Riverside County?

                                I wasn't looking to "litigate the case" here on this forum. Just wanted to let you guys know what's going on in Riverside County.
                                Why not? If you're looking for support, you need to let people know what's going on; just the facts. So far all you've done is present a very melodramatic version of one side of the issue with more drama than substance. On top of that you've managed to insinuate that any career firefighter would automatically oppose RCVFD.

                                Not very convincing, Mark. So, tell us, why shouldn't the current volunteer system be reorganized into a reserve system?
                                "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                                sigpic
                                The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                                Comment

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