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Mandating a percent for calls

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  • auxman
    replied
    J.Feight,

    Here are some questions you might want to ask before implementing this system:
    1. Is there a departmentj-wide problem of not enough people responding to calls or conducting training, or is it a problem with just a few individuals that aren't carrying their weight? If it isn't really that widespread an issue, there isn't a reason to devise a complicated system to try to solve the problem.

    2. Have you run the statistics to see what your current status is? This would help you answer #1 and would be the immediate question on everyone's mind when you propose some sort of minimum participation rule.

    3. Are you preprared to keep up with the paperwork necessary to run some sort of system like this? This may be a lot more trouble than you think.

    4. Are there other ways that lack of participation in training and/or responses could be addressed? If you are in a situation where you need all hands on deck every time, perhaps the solution is to work on recruiting more hands rather than trying to squeeze more time out of the ones you've got.

    5. Are you ready to carry out the threat of kicking people out who don't meet the minimumsy? Are you ready to kick out the mayors son or your brother-in-law? Backlash can follow.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrianB35
    replied
    Ours is 30% of all calls(yearly average around 500) and all practices, only have 2 a month.

    Now for us who work out of the area we asked for some accomodation because if you have 3 runs between 6-4 and we're out of town then we would get a 0. However if you do a percentage between 6 amto 6 pm and then 6pm to 6 am you'd see different numbers. My % from am to pm is around 15%. However, my pm to am is around 70%.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scorpio
    replied
    yea, we're pretty strict at my department. To become active you obviously have to be checked off on all trucks and complete driver training (And hold/maintain certs.). In addition to this, you have to hold an annual 60% activity -- the percentage comes from all meetings, training, and dept. events we host. If this is not met, then the individual loses rights (ex. voting in meetings, holding any sort of an officers position, etc.) If there is a constant issue (multiple years of low percentages), then the individual can be brought up on charges to consider them and active member -- drop them to probation or drop them from the dept. To be honest I don't think the dept. head would really throw you off if you only hold 55%, but to hold privileges, people need to realize you need to participate.

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  • THTMAN
    replied
    Voyager - Just wondering if you could give a quick overview of how your duty system works. Is there set crews for nights or open? How many members do you have and actually participate?, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.Feicht314
    replied
    i appreciate all the input from everyone and now its time to to some thinking on a ways to format some of these methods to fit our situation... thank you all

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  • braidjansen
    replied
    All volunteer hall with approximately 200 calls a year. We follow a 60/40 rule: Sixty percent of training (2 training sessions per month), and forty percent of calls. Someone working a five day a week job should have no difficulty meeting this requirement. That being said, they have only recently begun enforcing this standard and then only in the most extreem of circumstances, ie an individual has not bothered to attend a call in over four months.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefKN
    replied
    We use 40% of meetings, drills and "credit calls" in order to remain active.

    It's easer to define a "non-credit call". A "non-credit call" is a car accident, ems assist or service type of call (flooded basement, etc).

    Recently there was a change to make 3 'non-credit' mva calls equal to 1 "credit call".

    If you miss 3 drills or 3 meetings in a row then you are "delinquent" and there are 3 levels of punishment (25$ fine... up to 3rd strike which is throwing you out).

    If you don't maintain 40% then you are thrown out or moved to the "inactive rolls" if you have 10 years of active service with at least a 60% average for each year.

    We have 4 make up drills a year (usually a 4 hour drill) where you can get 1/2 of the calls you missed in your worst months.

    Confusing? Yep, that's why we have a computer doing all this calculating.

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  • LRFFPD
    replied
    I'm a member of a department that runs ~1200 calls a year and we use a points system. Everything from running calls, pub ed events, trainings, special details, etc all get a point. We use a quarterly pay period so at the end of 4 months you need to attend 10% of the average of the top 10 responders calls. Kind of confusing, but if all the top 10 responders went to 100 calls then you would need to have attended at least 10 to be considered "active". We have an inactive roster that you're placed on if you do not meet that requirement. Also you have to attend a certain number of trainings, which I do not recall the required number. Being placed on the "inactive" roster does not mean you can't attend department functions, it's more for insurance I believe.

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  • FuturePrimitive
    replied
    Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
    Just curious, but how would somebody get put back on the active roster if their gear is taken away?
    They wouldn't. I should have been clearer, it's not just the active roster, you're dismissed from the membership. If you want back in you have to resubmit an application and go back through the application process. And you'd better be pretty convincing that you'll be able to make points this time. In fact, you may not even make it past the standing committee since, as a dismissed former member, you did not leave the department in good standing.

    It sounds pretty harsh and I guess it is but it does trim the dead weight and make room for new members. Like you said though, you have to pretty much give up to not make points. We average 3 calls a day so making 90 calls a year isn't hard. Oh, and there's certain exemptions for college students that go away to school, I believe they just have to make 10% of calls when school is not in session. (Required training has to be made up.) In addition, seniority counts. I think at 10 years the required call percent starts to goes down, and at 25 years it's down to 0. There's still required training and business meetings to remain active though.

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  • tree68
    replied
    I recently encountered someone from an ambulance squad that gives something like 25 points for a "first call" response (they are a respond-from-home squad), as well as points for in-station time, special events, etc. IIRC, they give something like 50 points if you take in a "second call" run. At the end of the year, you can buy stuff with your points, which could be a lot, but it's all relative.

    The point here is that any point system can be devised - give lots of points for stuff you value, less for the routine. I do go along with having minimums though - we require five meetings, three fund-raisers, and one of the two hose tests per year. Otherwise you have folks who will run up their total on one thing and skip everything else.

    We are investigating LOSAP. One of the administrative requirements is to post the points quarterly. If you do mandate a percentage of calls, folks can see where they stand. I understand that there are those who will make the number of calls they have to in order to get the points, but since we (as a service) don't know how many calls we'll end up with for the year, they really have to keep up or risk not getting credit for the year.

    My son managed to get his LOSAP points with his dep't last year in part because of the stand-by time he did at the station, calls or no.

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    Recently I was at the Station for about 5 or 6 hours, and the phone didn't even ring. It was so quiet in Glenn Dale that you could hear the Chevys Rust. I leave to go to the Carryout to pick up Dinner and the Engine comes up the road behind me on a call.
    Just goes to show that the Probability of the Tones dropping is directly proportional to when you've placed the Take out Order.

    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    Moral of the Story: Points earned for different functions work well to determine a members activity level and active status. This applies more and more as a station gets busier.....
    We try to be flexible with how members can earn points. We get points for duty crews (5 or 12 hrs), points per drill (while on DC), and points per call. Since there are some nights when we don't turn a wheel we are allowed to convert some overnight DC points to call points. This encourages folks to pick up the 12-hour crews when they're falling behind on call points.

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    Originally posted by FuturePrimitive View Post
    We need to make 10% of calls, 50% of business meetings (6), and I forget how many drills, I think minimum of 12. We also have minimum annual training to retain interior status. If a member misses points for 1 year they are placed on probation. Two consecutive years and they are removed from the active roster, no vote, no appeal, just return your gear and cya.
    Just curious, but how would somebody get put back on the active roster if their gear is taken away? Granted, it sounds like with your system someone would really have to TRY to miss making the minimums.

    With us, when members don't make the minimum they're not eligible for LOSAP/stipend or voting. They are allowed to keep their gear though. We've found that calls/training usually aren't the problem (since they're part of duty crews) but for some reason people have a hard time making 6 (of 12) meetings a year.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    And...........

    We have a Points System and a "Standby Crew" requirement as well. Eng34ine pretty well summed it up You can Be (and I have Been) at the Station for a "Standby" and run nothing all day (or Night) and get halfway home and the Tones drop. Recently I was at the Station for about 5 or 6 hours, and the phone didn't even ring. It was so quiet in Glenn Dale that you could hear the Chevys Rust. I leave to go to the Carryout to pick up Dinner and the Engine comes up the road behind me on a call. Come out of the Carryout with Dinner, and the Heavy Rescue goes by on a different call. I then get back to the station just in time to Drive the Ambulance on an unrelated call.........


    Moral of the Story: Points earned for different functions work well to determine a members activity level and active status. This applies more and more as a station gets busier.....

    Leave a comment:


  • FuturePrimitive
    replied
    We have a point system. 1 point for just about every event, calls, drills, fill-ins, meetings, outside/state training, etc.

    We need to make 10% of calls, 50% of business meetings (6), and I forget how many drills, I think minimum of 12. We also have minimum annual training to retain interior status. If a member misses points for 1 year they are placed on probation. Two consecutive years and they are removed from the active roster, no vote, no appeal, just return your gear and cya.

    We run about 900 jobs a year so its pretty easy to make points. We don't get much EMS (roughly 15% of calls) but we make up for it in automatic false alarms.

    Leave a comment:


  • voyager9
    replied
    Originally posted by J.Feicht314 View Post
    i like that idea; like i stated above we run 300 plus calls and thats busy for around the area we are in.... but thats just Fire/Rescue/service/Dive and water rescue... we do not do QRS unless its something very serious and a couple EMS assist calls but mainly; but there may be a way to work that into our system
    We have a point system (forget the breakdown off the top of my head). We also have an in-house duty crew program. That seems to spread the load across all the members.

    Leave a comment:

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