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Volunteers who don't follow SOG's?

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  • Fireeaterbob
    replied
    sigh... in a perfect world...

    Look, the only ways to change things in a horrible environment are to teach/learn the correct way to do things, set the example, and hope to the fire Gods that the young and up and coming are noticing.

    Some departments have enormous turnover and therefore (usually) opportunities for growth and development...

    Some small departments have no turnover for up to 30 + years... This is where an uphill battle can exist.

    If you dont think these mini-kingdoms exist where the generally accepted ways to fight fire are thrust to the side then you are naive.

    The point is to find a way to help those living under the shadow of "ignorant" command develop and enforce SOPs and SOGs so they can leave the past behind and find a brighter, safer future.

    Telling FFs who really want to do right by the system and stand up to those who dont wanna do right is all fine and good....But in some of these venues, the lack of political power will lead to crap like being thrown off a department.
    Leadership that doesn't want to change will pick and gnaw at an indiviual until they find a crack they can exploit...Then comes the heave ho!
    It is not right. But in many cases that is the problem.

    To be part of the solution, you have to find a way to be there positively and build a consensus to do it right every single time.

    Rant over

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  • Eng34FF
    replied
    Well, FWD put it best. Around here, if you don't follow directions given by the IC, you will be disciplined, or at least warned. We have differences between departments and personnel within a department, but in general that stays at the firehouse, no place for that at the scene.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Anyone who allows politics to intercede in the name of Safety deserves to have their *** re-arranged.
    It's important to remember that in an organization such as a volunteer fire department there are often two sets of "leaders."

    The nominal leaders are the elected officers. Sometimes they are selected because they are the best qualified, sometimes because they are most popular, and sometimes because they are the only ones foolish enough to take on the job.

    Then there's the opinion leaders. You know who they are in your department. The motion is made and seconded, the discussion is finished, and it's time for a vote. When the chief/president calls for "all in favor" everyone figuratively or actually looks to the opinion leader to see how they are voting. If you want to curry favor with the opinion leader, you'll support their agenda.

    Occasionally an organization will get lucky and have officers who are both nominal and opinion leaders, but more often not. And if someone gets elected who isn't on good terms with the opinion leader, it won't be pretty.

    Opinion leaders rarely hold office. They prefer to have their power without the responsibility.

    So, if several members of the OL's clique happened to jump on the engine and the officer isn't part of the group, it's very possible that they are busy challenging his authority, probably in the "name" of their good buddy, the opinion leader.

    Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • FWDbuff
    replied
    Anyone who allows politics to intercede in the name of Safety deserves to have their *** re-arranged.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 07-26-2010, 09:37 PM.

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  • fireeaterbob
    replied
    Yes, that response was borderline apathy...

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  • fireeaterbob
    replied
    FWD, I like your approach... Unfortunately, politics and old school ettiquette can overrun the best of intentions.

    Until higher authorities within any given department grow a spine (enforce SOP and SOGs) the best one can hope for is to set the best example you can by doing what you are supposed to be doing. You can teach it, preach it, perform it but you cannot force (a) higher ranking individual(s) to follow if they rule the roost.

    Some people only learn through the school of hard knocks...If those persons yeild the political power then you have to do what you can until something serious knocks em up side the helmet (if they are wearing one).

    Leave a comment:


  • jam24u
    replied
    Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    You beat me to it!
    Me too!

    (the following is to meet the 10 character requirement)

    Leave a comment:


  • FWDbuff
    replied
    Originally posted by bigMike105 View Post
    FWD, check for a Pm please.
    1. Take the ones that flagrantly disobeyed your direct order aside, one by one, in a closed door environment, and go over the written SOP (I assume it is in writing) with them. Then give them one (and only one) verbal warning from yourself that if they disobey a written SOP and or a direct order from you again, you will take it to the next level of discipline as prescribed by your organization. Explain that they do not have the option nor luxury of disobeying a direct order, and that this is their one and only "get out of jail free" card. If they do it again, you MUST follow through with the discipline as prescribed by your organization. Remember, you are now a Company Officer. ACT LIKE ONE.

    2. As for the officer senior to you, again, take him aside in a closed door session, and explain to him that you do not appreciate being undermined in front of the personnel that you were in charge of. Remind him that the both of you, as Officers, have the responsibility to not only ensure that everyone goes home injury-free, but to also set a higher standard and set an example. If he laughs at you, or brushes you off in some fashion, explain to him that his reaction is not acceptable and that you will be taking it up the chain of command. And follow through!

    I have a saying and a philosophy at my volunteer house that you may benefit from- "I am not here to be your friend, I am here to be your Company Officer. If I **** you off in the process, Boo Hoo. But if I have anything to say about it, you are going home to your wife, girlfriend or parents the same way you climbed aboard my Engine Company."

    One more thing- A little due diligence goes a long way. On a hot, muggy night, letting them hang onto their coats while waiting for an assignment is not a bad thing. And as for them performing a task without the proper safety equipment- Safety is everyone's job, and anyone can stop a task if it is being performed unsafely.

    I hope this helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigMike105
    replied
    FWD, check for a Pm please.

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  • FWDbuff
    replied
    Originally posted by bigMike105 View Post
    Active, weather was warm and muggy. No response from the CO yet.
    What is your interest in all of this? Did YOU have YOUR gear on, and did YOU perform YOUR task to the best of your abilities, following all SOP's/SOG's? If so, perhaps not worrying about it would be an option for you.

    Now, if you were the Company Officer, or Acting Company Officer, yeah, then you have reason to inject your interest.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigMike105
    replied
    Originally posted by FWDbuff View Post
    -Were they actively engaged in performing a task or standing by?
    -What was the weather?
    -What did their Company Officer have to say about it? How much time does he have as a line officer?
    Active, weather was warm and muggy. No response from the CO yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It makes no difference what you call them. This is an old wive's tale.
    Duly noted.

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  • DeputyMarshal
    replied
    Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It makes no difference what you call them. This is an old wive's tale.
    You beat me to it!

    Leave a comment:


  • FWDbuff
    replied
    Originally posted by bigMike105 View Post
    How do you handle them? Just finished a call where half the crew left the scene in a ****y mood because they didn't want to wear their gear. Maybe full gear isn't required for a wreck, but if the sog's call for it, to me that means everyone wears full gear. Right or wrong?
    -Were they actively engaged in performing a task or standing by?
    -What was the weather?
    -What did their Company Officer have to say about it? How much time does he have as a line officer?

    Leave a comment:


  • CalvertFD168
    replied
    We discipline them if they fail or refuse to obey the IC or ranking officer.

    Leave a comment:

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