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Acting at a scene out of district

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  • #16
    Incidently, it is a whole different ball of wax between when a FF ends up on scene accidentally and a FF who intentionally "jumps" a run to be super FF and RESPONDS to a scene when he or she has not been paged or requested.

    THAT FF who responds out of juristiction with out being paged should be disciplined (preferably drawn, quartered and hung from the mast).

    There are departments in my area that allow this behaviour but by in large, it leads to contention between departments.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    • #17
      If you have PPE, I would try and use it if it's a realistic scenario. It's for your protection. Especially if there is fuel leaking. The possibility of a fire would put you in danger and render you useless to the driver. Just my opinion. That all being said, there isn't anything wrong with what went on. Every situation is different. We just have it drilled in our heads to always were PPE. Of course I'm young and am almost finished with FF1, so I have a different view. Our instructor will flip if we don't practice the proper procedures. I see a lot of older guys and vets who act at a scene without gear and that's an issue with me. My Capt. is the only officer that always wears his PPE, no matter what the call is. Then you don't forget or get complacent and get hurt or worse. But seriously? what else could you do when people are rocking the car over, that's insane. You at least stopped them from possible killing the driver and probably would have if you spent 2 or 3 minutes putting your gear on. So, for that, you did the right thing.

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      • #18
        Staying safe at a scene is paramount. Thus donning PPE or at least a traffic vest should be an automatic action.

        Going beyond being the first responder on scene and one who simply happens on the scene, in NY as a FF you really need to check in with the IC and get him/her to accept your services, at which point you're covered by the VFF Benefit Law, etc. If you don't, and get hurt, you could be on your own.

        It's not unheard of for a FF who is regularly in an area to get a letter from the chief of that district giving blanket permission to respond.

        We've had issues with overzealous FF's coming onto our scenes. Usually to the detriment of the operation.
        Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

        Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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        • #19
          Helping

          If you went to any sizable group of people (church on Sunday, PTA meeting, etc.) and asked the crowd "is anyone here an EMT?", you would likely find someone medically qualified (EMS, nurse, etc.).

          Any EMS trained person at that event would jump in to assist that someone that had a medical emergency (heart attack, etc.). Its just a natural reaction. Of course, someone at the incident would call 911 to report the medical emergency and the jurisdiction EMS would respond and arrive, too.

          Anyone trained in EMS will either "jump in" at an incident where a medical emergency occurs or arrive at that incident as part of the jurisdiction EMS.

          The whole situation revolves around the patient. Lets not get too hung up on who is there first. The reason we have EMS is to provide patient care. Getting uptight over who is on the scene is not necessary. The patient is what matters.

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          • #20
            This is funny you posted this, I will explain why but first let me state I think you did the right thing and kudos for getting everyone to stop what they were doing.

            The reason this is funny is because a similar incident just happened for me.

            I was actually in another state but we border the state and I work in the state where the incident occurred. I was just driving and a roll over had just happened ahead of me just before I made the turn. The car was on its top and the roof was smashed down to the point to where there was just enough room for the driver to have her head sticking out a little. The good people that stopped and came out of their homes started to pry the door. I did exactly what others have stated. I walked up and stated I was a firefighter very loudly, asked if someone had called 911 and immediately went down to the patient. Of course I did the normal stuff, asked question etc. but there was little more that I could do so I simply talked to her, held the back of her head and her hand so she would stay calm and would not move. As soon as the paramedics/firelighters arrived I answered their few quick questions and stood back at my truck. I was blocked in at this point so just watched and tried to learn a few things.

            I guess the important thing to do is to do what you can until the FD shows up. At that point do not interfere. Be sure to answer their questions and politely let them know you are a FF so if they need some more assistance then they know you may be able to help. But if they have enough people show up then there isn't even a need to let them know your a FF. Just watch and educate yourself.

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            • #21
              Providing care for the injured trumps politics everytime. You did the right thing.

              I would add one more thing about some sort of identifying clothing\PPE. The accident victims need to know that you are qualified also. I rolled up onto what appeared to be a serious MVA a few years ago. By looking at the vehicles you could tell it was a significant collision. Both drivers were out of their vehicles. One seated on the curb, the other walking around and talking on a cel phone. Neither had obvious external injuries but of course internal and\or spinal injuries are always a concern. I identified myself as a firefighter first responder. The person seated at the curb was cooperative and did what I suggested. The other person basically ignored me. She continued to walk around her car screaming into her phone and acting hystericly despite my repeated suggestions that she remain calm and still.

              Highway patrol was first to arrive. I gave the officer a quick sizeup. He approached the frantic victim and she immediately complied with his requests.
              My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Blulakr View Post
                She continued to walk around her car screaming into her phone and acting hystericly despite my repeated suggestions that she remain calm and still.
                I read an account some time ago about a woman who was involved in an accident as the driver of one of the vehicles. When FF's arrived on the scene and sought to evaluate her she waved them off (she was still seated in the vehicle) and continued to talk on her phone. I think it took a LEO to deal with that one, too...

                Priorities, priorities...
                Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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                • #23
                  If along one of the limited access highways around here and a fire company or bus was on the scene, I keep driving as not to add to the confusion or put my pov in a place that it may be involved.

                  If on the normal run of the mill streets, I always stop to see if anyone is injured or see if they need assistance. If not, I say see ya, get back in my pov and drive on. I still call 9-1-1 even if they say they have, to relay info to the call taker.

                  If the police is on the scene and you begin to slow or to pull over, and they wave at you to proceed down the road, you should heed what they say. No since in getting into a situation with them, even if you think you are in the right.
                  Stay Safe and Well Out There....

                  Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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                  • #24
                    I've ran into similar situations a number of times, be it coming up on a wreck, a fire, or being somewhere when a medical emergency occurred.

                    The first thing I do is one of the first things they teach you- identify yourself. "I'm a firefighter", "I'm a medic", whatever. Identify yourself to the bystanders, the patient, and anyone that arrives afterwards. By simply stating "I'm an off-duty medic" (or whatever title), you command attention from bystanders and can gain a level of trust with them and the patient.

                    As far as the coat, I don't use mine if I have it. I keep it in the truck and simply identify myself. Once the guys with the appropriate PPE arrive in their jurisdiction, I introduce myself, give them whatever information is needed, and move aside. Typically I'll hang around until things wind down to make sure they don't need anything else from me.

                    The one situation that sticks in my mind was one when I was traveling out-of-state. Myself and two other guys from our department were on our way bag from an apparatus manufacturer when we witnessed an accident. No one was there and we were in the middle of nowhere. We stopped and renderred aid, identifying ourselves to those bystanders that were there.

                    When the ambulance finally arrived, I introduced myself and pointed out the other two guys were firefighter/EMT's, and gave them a report on my patient. The problem I got into was that I was the only medic amongst everyone there, as they ran BLS volunteer ambulances.

                    Once the medical helicopter arrived, the head guy with the FD (they had arrived with another ambulance, no medics still yet) introduced me to the flight medic as a medic. Immediately he started handing me IV equipment. While I can't complain one bit about them offering me every courtesy in the book, I kept reiterating I wasn't licensed in their state and I was just a passerby that stopped to assist, and that's all I cared to do.

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                    • #25
                      I believe in California if you are trained in ems you are not required to render aid to someone whom you happen to come across. If you do choose to render aid such as cpr then once you start you cannot stop until someone qualified replaces you or you are physically unable to continue.
                      Last edited by Blulakr; 07-21-2010, 12:11 PM.
                      My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Blulakr View Post
                        I believe in California if you are trained in ems you are not required to render aid to someone whom you happen to come across. If you do choose to render aid such as cpr then once you start you cannot stop until someone qualified replaces you or you are physically unable to continue.
                        This is true in my state also. On my pov (truck) I have a fire co license plate on the front but nothing else identifying me as a firefighter or EMT. If I can stop I will but sometimes you can't. You cannot abandon a patient once you start. Since I run QRS and on those calls I respond in regular clothes, it has become a habit to identify myself as an EMT to the patients and family/friends. Sometimes though you have to speak up loudly. I responded to a code at a park with a swimming beach. One of my fellow QRS was doing compressions when I got there. I had to fight my way through the crowd with my AED and etc. At one point I was practically screaming at the crowd, they did move but quickly resumed their gawking activity.
                        FF/EMT

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                        • #27
                          I see nothing wrong with the way you handled it and I would expect nothing more or less from anyone else in your position.
                          Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Blulakr View Post
                            I believe in California if you are trained in ems you are not required to render aid to someone whom you happen to come across. If you do choose to render aid such as cpr then once you start you cannot stop until someone qualified replaces you or you are physically unable to continue.
                            And I believe it is/was Vermont which required EMTs to place ID on their vehicle and to stop and render aid. Corrections/updates welcome.
                            Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                            Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tree68 View Post
                              And I believe it is/was Vermont which required EMTs to place ID on their vehicle and to stop and render aid. Corrections/updates welcome.
                              I don't recall ever hearing that EMTs were required to place ID on their vehicles but I do know for certain that it's one of only two or possibly three "mandatory duty to act" states.
                              "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                              sigpic
                              The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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                              • #30
                                Ask your department about thier policies regarding out of district activities, and consult your state laws for legal protections and responsibilities regarding performing EMS out of ditrict.
                                Train to fight the fires you fight.

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