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do I need an attitude adjustment?

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  • JAFA62
    replied
    Oh yah we use a Combitnation nozzle..lol

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  • JAFA62
    replied
    IMHO, smoothbore nozzles are for defensive surround and drown tactics. Departments that use them on offensive handlines don't have faith in their nozzlemen to know when a straight stream is best and when a fog stream is best. A straight stream from a modern combination nozzle is every bit as effective as a smoothbore and it gives you the option of going to fog when you need it.

    Im alittle late on reading this thread..But I disagree with the smoothbore for defensive attack theory..I agree with the combination nozzle. However A straight bore can do a job inside as good as an Combination pipe..As for the fog pattern why would I use this in side. The straight stream will have a better reach and if applied right it will darken down a fire with 2-3 bursts. And if you need to little water thats what the water can is for. If you are suggesting the fog for protection the straight bore can be used aswell.
    Just my thought.

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  • bfranse
    replied
    Wise man says...

    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    They DO NOT necessarily have Fifty years experience. They just may have one years experience, repeated forty nine times. Experience is made up of a number of factors, not just time on the job.

    Quite possibly the wisest thing I have ever read on here.

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  • KeithA8
    replied
    Yeh Gonz I'm one of "them". The "quint" I'm on was born a truck and was refurbed to be a quint. It doesn't do engine work well at all. So most jobs we stay a truck unless the closest engine is far off.

    Bob, I stopped jumping from those hieghts after that experience so I'm pretty much grounded now. I miss you too buddy. You can stop by and visit me also. I'm still on that 3 on 3 off junk. If I knew you guys were going 24s, I never would have left. Who knew? No regrets though. Life is good over here. The grass realy is greener on this side of the fence.

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  • DeputyMarshal
    replied
    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    Egads! You're one of ..."them"...
    We used to keep him mostly on the engine but he kept jumping off the top at working fires.

    (We miss the guy -- his new FD is lucky to have him. )

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  • CaptainGonzo
    replied
    I'm on the truck (quint actually)
    Egads! You're one of ..."them"...

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  • KeithA8
    replied
    Oreo will do. And by the way it's not "the big city". It's a slightly bigger town than the one you work in. With just a little more work - OK moderatly more work. I have stopped by to visit and you're never there. I was just there on friday. I haven't been there on days since your new promotion (congrats by the way).

    The straight stream debate is that it's now taught in the "book" to attack with a straight stream in a poorly vented structure. This actualy almost never applies to me personaly cause I'm on the truck (quint actually) so we rarely ever pull a line. My nozzle is a very very small smooth bore attached to a 2 1/2 gallon can. Fog is acheived by putting my thumb over the end. It opperates at a very low pressure. This puts out more fires than not which upsets the engine guys. Oh well.

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  • DeputyMarshal
    replied
    Originally posted by KeithA8
    Anyway, the fog stream DOES put fire out effectively. But at what price? You steam boil any life in the environment.
    I totally agree -- a fog stream at the wrong time is a bad play. BUT, if the circumstances are right (fire vented ahead of the stream, fire area not tenable w/o PPE anyway, etc.) nothing beats a fog stream to put out a lot of fire with very little water and in hard to get places.

    Originally posted by KeithA8
    You also put a rooky on that nozzle and watch how bad he burns himself.
    Unsupervised and untrained, you're probably right. I wouldn't want an untrained rookie on the nozzle totally unsupervised anyway. In the hands of an experienced firefighter though, a combination nozzle offers a lot more options than a smoothbore.

    Originally posted by KeithA8
    Also, the GPM out of a straight stream combination nozzle is much less than a smooth bore AND a smooth bore is @ 50 psi vs 100 psi.
    Not necessarily. If you compare a smoothbore to a 100 psi mystery nozzle you're comparing apples to oranges. There are some decent combination nozzles out there that operate in pressure ranges similar to smoothbores with comparable flow. (We just have to get out of the original-TFT tunnelvision. 100 psi TFT's are great nozzles but they aren't the only choice out there.)

    Originally posted by KeithA8
    We just got a funky new nozzle that is smooth bore, straight stream, and fog. The "automatic" tip comes off leaving you a smooth bore if you so desire.
    I've seen some of those but I haven't had a chance to play with one. How are they working out?

    Originally posted by KeithA8
    Is this Bob?
    You win a cookie.

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  • KeithA8
    replied
    DeputyMarshal,
    Do I know you? Anyway, the fog stream DOES put fire out effectively. But at what price? You steam boil any life in the environment. You also put a rooky on that nozzle and watch how bad he burns himself. Also, the GPM out of a straight stream combination nozzle is much less than a smooth bore AND a smooth bore is @ 50 psi vs 100 psi. (much easier to man handle) We just got a funky new nozzle that is smooth bore, straight stream, and fog. The "automatic" tip comes off leaving you a smooth bore if you so desire. I can see alot of tips being left at the front door. LOL. Don't get me wrong there is a place for fog nozzles in the fire service ie: car fires, blitz attack, vent after knock down. I would just say that you should reconsider your attack nozzle and how you use it. In your next live burn try it a few diiferent ways. A live burn event is not real life because of the fire load and how it's distributed throughout a structure, but you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Is this Bob?

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  • DeputyMarshal
    replied
    Originally posted by KeithA8
    This is why many depts use a smooth bore first off. Smooth bore gives you a lot more GPM. The fog theory is old school and used at a time when scba was optional.
    How quickly they forget and develop minds of their own... Is this what the Big City has done to you? We've had this discussion before (in person) and we still disagree...

    IMHO, smoothbore nozzles are for defensive surround and drown tactics. Departments that use them on offensive handlines don't have faith in their nozzlemen to know when a straight stream is best and when a fog stream is best. A straight stream from a modern combination nozzle is every bit as effective as a smoothbore and it gives you the option of going to fog when you need it.

    When your old department swung from using smoothbores and the occasional Navy nozzle in the early '80s, straight streams & smoothbores were out and fog was in. 20 years later we've seen the pendulum swing back to the opposite extreme with smoothbores in again and fog nozzles out... IMHO, the best solution is somewhere in between those two extremes -- straight streams & smooth bores for some applications and fog for others. But, since you can't get a fog stream out of a smothbore, I'll take the combination nozzle for interior work almost every time.

    (BTW, how's the family? You should stop by the old digs and visit once and awhile... )

    Leave a comment:


  • JackBauer24
    replied
    Originally posted by KeithA8
    doughesson,
    You had good reason to use a fog in the Navy. In the structure world a fog will hurt you if you're agressive and move fast. You will steam yourself and will lesson the chance of survival of the victems (if any). A straight stream will give you more knock down if properly operated and disturb the thermal layer less which will keep your visibility better. This is why many depts use a smooth bore first off. Smooth bore gives you a lot more GPM. The fog theory is old school and used at a time when scba was optional. The fog would be a slow advance that would bring air in with you. The steam affect was actualy desired to quench the fire. It actualy worked but killed many trapped victems.
    fog is such a touchy subject at my dpt. There's a few guys who know it's not the best, and one is prolly our best interior man at the moment. Funny story about it, we had a training burn and the assistant chief was "demonstrating" how good it was. Long story short, fully involved living room and we're attacking from the front porch and people standing watching on the portch. well the 2 guys (asst chief and student) on the nozzle were great. Sure burned **** out of everyone else on the porch though. lol and then he said more then once now "I showed you how that fog worked didn't eye". whatever.

    Don't get me wrong, we've got some dedicated men on our dpt and they've been fighting fire longer then I've been alive (27). They good guys and I still can learn from them. I hope to bring some new into the old though.

    ps, I wish I'd known how much I enjoy this in my early 20's, my lifes path would have been real different.

    Leave a comment:


  • KeithA8
    replied
    doughesson,
    You had good reason to use a fog in the Navy. In the structure world a fog will hurt you if you're agressive and move fast. You will steam yourself and will lesson the chance of survival of the victems (if any). A straight stream will give you more knock down if properly operated and disturb the thermal layer less which will keep your visibility better. This is why many depts use a smooth bore first off. Smooth bore gives you a lot more GPM. The fog theory is old school and used at a time when scba was optional. The fog would be a slow advance that would bring air in with you. The steam affect was actualy desired to quench the fire. It actualy worked but killed many trapped victems.

    Leave a comment:


  • doughesson
    replied
    Originally posted by KeithA8
    How bad a straight stream is? What's so bad about a straight stream? Don't tell me these dinos are still going in with a 30 degree fog. This they read out of a book in the 70's. If straight streams are so bad then why do most city depts come off with a smooth bore? Ask them that.
    My initial firefighting was in the Navy where we used a fog nozzle on a second line to protect from the heat as the line was advanced.It got to be a habit with me to start with a fog and working it around some before going to solid stream.
    Due to more senior people on calls at my old vollie department,I only got to be the nozzleman a few times but it worked.
    And,yes,I was told that"Here,son,we use straight stream,not fog."

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  • JackBauer24
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods
    Jack, Welcome aboard. I've been in the Fire/Rescue/EMS/Everything else business for Forty Eight Years (so far, and I'm not leaving) and I have an Attitude. My Attitude is about those who automatically equate time in the department with experience. THEY ARE WRONG. Period. They have Fifty years in? OK They have Fifty years TIME IN THE DEPARTMENT. They DO NOT necessarily have Fifty years experience. They just may have one years experience, repeated forty nine times. Experience is made up of a number of factors, not just time on the job. You seem to have a head on your shoulders, and I have a hunch you'll be "Movin' on up" over the years. You ARE going in the right direction, just pace yourself, and watch the idiots. Best wishes.
    I appreciate the encouraging words, thank you and good luck to you as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    And............

    Jack, Welcome aboard. I've been in the Fire/Rescue/EMS/Everything else business for Forty Eight Years (so far, and I'm not leaving) and I have an Attitude. My Attitude is about those who automatically equate time in the department with experience. THEY ARE WRONG. Period. They have Fifty years in? OK They have Fifty years TIME IN THE DEPARTMENT. They DO NOT necessarily have Fifty years experience. They just may have one years experience, repeated forty nine times. Experience is made up of a number of factors, not just time on the job. You seem to have a head on your shoulders, and I have a hunch you'll be "Movin' on up" over the years. You ARE going in the right direction, just pace yourself, and watch the idiots. Best wishes.

    Leave a comment:

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