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  • Help me to understand whats going on!!

    When I was going to the fire training academy in my area. Some other fire fighters in my class spoke about how close and tight the fire fighters brotherhood is suppose to be. They said, your fellow brothers will always be there for you in time of need. Ok, heres one of those times... I failed the the fire fighters final exam by 3 points. In which I was telling them all along that I was having a tuff time with these test. They waited until the last minute to tell me that they didn't have the extra hands needed to help me out. "Due to other jobs outside of us that required more of there attention. So we are putting you on admin. leave." I spoke to the union and they deserted me. I spoke to EEO for the department and they told me that things were taking care of. Meaning..... another fellow classmate was put on desk duty after failing the physical fitness part of the job. ( Pt ) After they put me on admin. All of the officers told me to get a lawyer to check into this. Meaning..... If they do that for him they should do it for me aswell. The Chief then put him on admin. leave also. After the union called him to find out whats going on. At my wifes job she noticed a client that worked for the fire department. So she asked, what should my husband do?? The clienttold her. " I know all about your husbands issues with the department but. Since he have his EMT certifications. He should apply for the ambulance services. The other guy who is on admin leave also. Father is a retired Chief and he has more pull than your Husband." I'm not one of those guys to go out and fight against a job for the right to be there but. I have been waiting my whole life for a spot in the city fire department. What should i do? Send your ideas or comments too: [email protected]

  • #2
    no comments!!!

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    • #3
      42 views and no convers......

      Comment


      • #4
        just my .02

        the fire service is a close knit family but just like families, we have our good and bad elements. sounds to me like you have some legit concerns but going up against the brass alone can be difficult. and sometimes members don't feel like geting involved in someone elses issues cause they dont have the clout, or fear that it will draw them into a situation that could make it bad for them. my advice to you(considering that you mentioned that you have always wanted to be on the city fire dept.) is to try to find out how to stay in good standing with your department and then do whatever you can to get that test passed. if thats all you have to do then do it at all costs. but if you feel as though you have legal grounds to sue or something then you have to ask yourself, is it worth the hassle it will bring you to battle the city? or is it easier to just suck it up and drive on? i'm not trying to be a jerk, but it is gonna be a long, ugly, legal road. and no one is gonna want to get involved if it jeapordizes their families livelyhood. its a big #%$* sandwich sometimes and sometimes you gotta take a bite. espically if you are living out your dream. hope this helps you.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HeyitsAntman
          42 views and no convers......
          I have several comments after reading your post. However, the WT has threatened to toss me if I do.
          PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: just my .02

            Originally posted by Hedge03
            the fire service is a close knit family but just like families, we have our good and bad elements. sounds to me like you have some legit concerns but going up against the brass alone can be difficult. and sometimes members don't feel like geting involved in someone elses issues cause they dont have the clout, or fear that it will draw them into a situation that could make it bad for them. my advice to you(considering that you mentioned that you have always wanted to be on the city fire dept.) is to try to find out how to stay in good standing with your department and then do whatever you can to get that test passed. if thats all you have to do then do it at all costs. but if you feel as though you have legal grounds to sue or something then you have to ask yourself, is it worth the hassle it will bring you to battle the city? or is it easier to just suck it up and drive on? i'm not trying to be a jerk, but it is gonna be a long, ugly, legal road. and no one is gonna want to get involved if it jeapordizes their families livelyhood. its a big #%$* sandwich sometimes and sometimes you gotta take a bite. espically if you are living out your dream. hope this helps you.
            I am sure glade someone has the balls to keep it real with me. The fire Department is somewhat like the folks here. They are too scared to take up for there fellow brothers. I thought the fire services was close neat. I think I was wrong on that one!! We were taught to stand up for those who can't stand for themselves but, i see!!! We as fire fighters have the balls to run into a burning building but no balls to stand up for one another in time like this. I was just 3 points short. Its costing me my career....Something to think about!! If one of your fellow classmates were behind in class and he told you guys from day one about it, how would you take it?? Remember you guys know nothin about eachother other than you all just started this class together. I hope you volunteers don't say f him and move on because that may be the guy who pulls you out of that fire alive. Its a sad thing when they pull you in the office and tell you. You are now on admin leave. Don't let me speak upon the union, please!! They turned the other cheek... I want those real fire fighter to step up to the plate on this one.... no one knows who you are!! thanks for hearing me out. peace and have a good night.

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            • #7
              42+

              Most if not the 42 and those at the your department understand exactly what happened just by reading your posting. Unforuntely you don't. This might help:

              The Call Doesn’t Come

              You have done everything you can do to get hired. You’re in background. Things seem to be moving along. Then nothing is happening. Your calls are not returned. You hear from other candidates below you on the list that they have completed their psych and medical. The academy date has been set. You still can’t find anything out.

              The letter arrives informing you that you are out of the process. You’re devastated. You don’t know why. You want to know. Maybe there’s something you can do, someone you can talk to convince them you’re the guy they need; there has to be a mistake. Just give me a chance to prove myself. Your calls go unanswered.

              What do you do now? You feel hurt, angry, frustrated and betrayed. Well, there is not much you can do. If you push too hard you might hurt your chances of getting on somewhere else. Even if you are able to get someone to talk to you, you probably will never really find out why. It just happens sometimes for whatever reason.

              My advice. Go through the denial, anger, and depression. Lick your wounds and accept what happened. Then, regroup and get back out there and test again. If you made it this far, chances are you can do it again. Maybe with a better department than you hoped for.

              "There is now winning here. Only degress of losing."

              Fire "Captain Bob"
              Author of the new book Becoming A Firefighter--The Complete Guide to Your Badge!

              www.eatstress.com

              888-238-3959
              _____________________________________________

              "Nothing counts 'til you have the badge . . . Nothing!"

              More Tips on getting hired and promoted by Firehouse Contributing Author Fire “Captain Bob” Articles here:
              http://www.firehouse.com/contact/10544410/bob-smith


              Fire "Captain Bob"

              www.eatstress.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Bob, I always like your posts. Brutal honesty goes a long way! CaptBob's right, though. As tight as the fire service is, the rumormill can be even tighter. You as an outsider might never find out what happened, but plugging away at it, analyzing each and every oral board experience will help you to be more prepared for the next. As said in other threads, it's not always what someone has for credentials & experience, but also how he/she presents the package at the interview. Without ANY fire experience and very little training a year ago, I found my oral board scenario questions much harder to answer because the material wasn't in my head yet (many might argue there's NO material in my head!). Just the same, I learned by asking questions afterward, learning about oral boards as much as I learned about fire. The next round and the next round were all easier, and the presentation got more fluid. Be brutally honest with yourself when thinking about the hiring process. Is there anything you could have done BETTER when answering a question? Did you dress appropriately? Did you shake each member's hand and sit in a manner that showed relative comfort in that hair-raising environment? How fluid were the answers? Lots of questions that I know others could expand upon, but just a few ideas of where things could go wrong. Good luck, and always keep us posted with how things work out.
                ~Kevin
                Firefighter/Paramedic
                --^v--^v--^v--^v--
                Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong
                Dennis Miller

                Comment


                • #9
                  From what I've gathered, you failed to pass the minimum score for your recruit class test. Maybe you get another shot before outright failure. Check with the academy staff.

                  You spoke about the closeness of the FD family, and that you failed your exam by 3 points. I'm not sure if you meant it in the manner that I read it, but I'm going to assume that you did. If that's not the case, then I apologize.

                  The family thing is NOT an entitlement just because you were hired into the job. That status is earned. Don't forget, there is a really good chance that the whole family concept is foreign to the folks that actually hired you since they are often non-FD personnel, so acceptance by those that live the lifestyle is going to be far from automatic. Even some Chief officers don't understand, or have forgotten what that concept is. The other guys on the department don't know you yet, so they most likely aren't going out on a limb for issues that may be pretty cut and dried. You may not know what has gone on behind the scenes either.

                  Most new recruits are on probationary status, so there is usually very little that the Union can do in many cases, so long as the law is being followed.

                  I'm not sure if you meant that since it was only 3 points that kept you from passing the exam, they should have just given them to you, but if you did that's way off base. The minimums are set to provide a hard cutoff. If they give you the 3 points, what about the the next guy with 4 or 10? Then where is the line drawn? There is no guarantee that anyone is going to pass through the academy. It's just as much a part of the selection process as any other test they give, and it should be.

                  I'm not about to pass judgement on the instructors without hearing their side regarding getting you the extra help that you said they were told that you needed. I know our guys usually try to help those that need it when they can. Those extra hours are usually without pay for the instructor.

                  It's their job to give you the information you need to pass the test, and in a manner that encourages learning. In short, it's their job to teach; it's yours to learn. Some just simply can't learn the material. There's no shame in that. This is a physically demanding, and intellectually challenging profession. It has few peers on those counts.

                  I don't mean to sound defeatist, but not everyone is going to work their dream job. I wanted to play 3rd base for the Yankees. Hell, I would have even played for the Red Sox, but that's another story. My point is that desire isn't always going to get you where you wanted to be. It's extremely valuable, but it's not going to totally replace the necessary skills and education needed to do a job. Desire is what put Cal Ripken, Jr. over the top for the consecutive games played record. It was his skill and training as a ball player that got him there. Without that skill and training, he would have been behind the dugout rather than in it.

                  You know the areas where you were weak in the academy. Work on them. Just because this department didn't work out, it doesn't mean that it won't work out someplace else. It may still work out with this department.

                  Check with the Academy staff. Like I said earlier, you may have a couple more chances to take the test. Don't give up; just be realistic.

                  Oh, yeah...I almost forgot. No one has a "right" to be a firefighter. They have a right to the opportunity to be considered equally for the position if they are qualified. There's a huge difference.

                  That's the kind of "entitlement" attitude that gets a lot of new recruits in trouble. Those are the ones who hear stories about the fire department family, and they never get to live in it.

                  In any event, good luck.
                  Last edited by Steamer; 09-10-2003, 01:15 PM.
                  Steve Gallagher
                  IACOJ BOT
                  ----------------------------
                  "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I know this may upset you but what you fail to understand is that you failed the written exam. The passing of the exam is a requirement for you to continue employment. I was an instructor for over 16 years and something you need to understand is this. As an instructor, my job is to teach you the information and knowledge in a sequenced, logical and effective manner and expect you to study and understand what I'm teaching you.
                    If one of my academy trainees has a problem in certain areas, I advise them to put more effort into that area in which they lack the necessary understanding.I also advise them to ask more questions but I can't allow them to take up the entire time of the class I'm teaching. There are other students in your class and I can't take all that time or it effects the rest of the trainees. This may require you to do many, many hours of reading. You may even have to read the same subject matter 10 times. If that's what you need to do then that's what you do. Although I would have liked to work with academy trainees on a 1 to 1 basis, it is very difficult to do and it really isn't my job to be a private tutor. Remember, I may have as many as 30-60 other trainees to teach.
                    I'll ask you these questions. Did the instructors fail you or did you fail yourself? Did you get together with other trainees and form study groups (very effective)? Did you put in enough hours into studying the subject matter? Did you take effective notes and use them to your advantage? Did you give 100% in reaching the goal by doing the above.
                    I remember way back when I first started as a trainee in the academy. It wasn't easy and took many, many hours and a considerable amount of sacrifice in my private life to achieve my goal. At that time we needed to score a minimum 85% on the test. In most academies now it's 75%. My purpose for mentioning this is that I had an instructor that told me one thing that I still believe is true today. As a firefighter I don't want to rely on anyone that is going to be wrong more than 15% of the time. This statement actually gave me more motivation to succeed. Now you can usually be wrong 25% of the time. Try to get into another class and give everything you have timewise and hopefully you'll succeed.
                    Last edited by FireLt1951; 09-12-2003, 11:00 PM.

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                    • #11
                      I like to thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to help me to understand whats going on. I would say this to all of your questions involving asking for help. I went to the chief and he told me to go back to my instructors. So, I swallowed my pride and did just that!! After passing messages to them and asking for more take home work. I suddently knew it wasn't going to work because the more I asked the more they ran away. I got with folks in my class and they helped aswell. The bottom line is that, the work we went over in class wasn't no where near the test material. I was the only one in my class to fell I might add but, i studied my *** off. The instructors felt bad about giving me the bad news when we were one on one. While we were in the room face to face like a board review. They bottled all that stuff up because they didn't want to seem like it was there fault. I feel like they left me hangin!!! Even the people in my class said, "we all were guessing". I was very good with practicles but when it came to classroom stuff verbally I was good. Written, I sucked!! One instructor would give us the review while the other put the test together. How can you put a test together if you have no idea about what we know. Aww I forgot, we are suppose to know this!! I feel sad even thinking about failing that class because I really wanted it badly. I almost feel like its not what you know, Its who you know....
                      Thanks for reading this and sorry to take up your time. Thanks......

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Another Perspective

                        AntMan,
                        I've taught more than a few fire & EMS classes and here's some things that leapt out at me from your message:
                        1. "I was the only one in my class to fell I might add but..." If all of the other students passed the class final, the class must have done an appropriate job of preparing them for the final.
                        2. "They bottled all that stuff up because they didn't want to seem like it was there fault." - See #1 - if all of the other students passed, it wasn't their fault.
                        3. You have numerous spelling and grammatical errors in your postings. You state that you have problems on the written test. Perhaps some remedial reading/English course work would help you test better. Good written communication skills will be important right away for report writing and even more important as you move up the ladder.
                        4. There is a limit to how much extra help an instructor can provide individual students. Instructors have other time commitments. They also will use their best materials right off the bat for the entire class, so they may not have lots of extra things to hand out.
                        5. The primary goal of all instructors is to teach the material you need to be ready to go into the field. In many cases, state or national organizations prepare the certification exams and the instructors are not permitted to see them.

                        My recommendation to you is to find out which areas on the exam you did badly on and then study them. That way, you'll be better prepared for your next class or next exam.
                        Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I will echo the comments of Ohiovolffemtp.
                          "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm trying to understand what you are going through here. I know that you thought that you were doinga great jpb in class. You mentioned that you " studied your *** off". Ok. But maybe you were studying teh wrong material. Ususally you get 2 or 3 chances at the test before they say THAT'S IT YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE CLASS OVER AGAIN!
                            In my classes we were allowed OPEN BOOK TESTS, was that right? Well, I tell you, everone passed the classroom tests, NOT everyone passed the State test though, some even failing it 3x having to take the class over. Some of us took on the extra initiative to read the book over and over and get study guides. For my fire science I&II I bought the workbooks for both classes and the knightlight study guide software and I DID THEM. I also volunteered to be an advisor in the Fire Explorers program because I wasn't on a dept. and with 30+ people in teh class, hands on time sometimes we didn't all get a chance to do everything so this allowed me all the hands on time that I wanted.
                            At any rate, you know what kind of info is on the tests now, go back and study some more and retake the test. When you pass you can smile and know it was because YOU DID IT!
                            Remember, when you point your finger at someone you have 3 pointing back at you..it works both ways.

                            ** disclaimer- for some reason my keyboard likes to spell THE "TEH" ,LOL!
                            ______________________________
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                            Jenni
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                            • #15
                              Help me understand what's going on

                              I read your post. It sounds to me as if you need to study some more and retest. I just finished my EMT class and tested. Me and the guy that tested with me passed the test. There were lots of people who didn't. We were outside after taking the test and I heard so many people complaining and talking about the instructor they had for thier class. (We all had the same instructor.) I listened for awhile and then I couldn't hold it any longer. I had to say something. I don't mean this to offend you, but just like I told them. It is not the instructor's fault they did not pass. It was thier fault, and a lot of them failed on minor things. I ask them if they checked the dates on the meds. and was told they just administered them. Well anyone who could see or read could tell the eppy pen was out of date. That was the reason they failed they did not take the time to check the date. It was not the instructor's fault they did not do something they was taught to do. So my advice to you is study, study, and take the test again. I know it is hard to accept that something minor may have kept you from passing. It is not always the big things that get us. Good Luck on retesting. I tested with people who had to take the class 3 times to pass. It is not a shame to fail it is a shame to give up. If you want it bad enough keep going back. It will come in due time.

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