Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

48/96 Shift schedule

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    We've discussed a lot of the options that you've talked about, and I think, in theory, most of them could work for us, but...

    The biggest problem I see for our department is that there isn't a lot of respect given to the crews on the Medic units. Not to say that the guys working on the Box are looked down upon, more that they are pitied for HAVING to work the box. This, you would think, would make guys more willing to "jump across" for a few hours, if needed. I don't know if this would be the case though. I think we've fostered such a negative stigma about working on the ambulance that guys are pretty unwilling to work on them at all.

    We run two 'Flex Medics', 12 hour day cars that are OT staffed and are specifically designed to take pressure off the busy Medic units and let them eat/rest/etc. We staff them with one EMT and one Paramedic...never a problem filling the BLS spot, because how hard is it to drive around for 12 hours and get time-and-a-half for it? We are only occasionally able to run both units during a given day, because there so few Paramedics that want to work on a Medic, even for 12 hours! Most of the core group of EMT-Ps that work the Flex are young guys who like the work (and the money). Again, I don't think this is because of the work, per se, but more because of the stigma that working on the Box sux.

    The Box is where you're sent to suffer when you're a young guy. Eventually, when you've served your time, they let you out of purgatory and onto an Engine. Some of our Houses are set up with an internal Engine/Medic toggle (1/3 time on the Engine, 2/3 on the Box, or vice versa)...and these Engine spots are always the last to go during a bid because, at least some of the time, you HAVE to work on the Box. A lot of the older guys never had to work on a medic unit, so they pity you, but they really don't understand how much more work you do...they just know that they don't want to do it! Our district came around through several mergers, and most of the previous agencies didn't transport, so the older guys haven't had to work the Box...ever...

    Personally, I think it's kind of a sad state that we've allowed ourselves to fall into. I like working on the Box. We get to run good medical and trauma calls mixed in with the ample BS (of course). Our ambulances have SCBAs and are equipped to go to fires...and we do. I've been to more fires on the Box than on the Engine, even at 50/50 time. It's hard work, sure, but why are we there if we don't want to do the job? But would I still be able to do a good job if I had to do it for 48 hours?

    I guess my major fear is that the stigma is going to over-ride the brotherly bond to take care of each other. Right now, it's unusual for a Captain to take his medic out of service to let the guys have a break, mostly because it's 'only' a 24 hour tour, and we're always short on ambulances. Will this change if we go to 48s, or will it just be another job that the young guys are expected to shoulder and the older guys have no idea what it's about because they've never done it?

    I'm not saying 48/96 couldn't be a good thing, maybe just that your individual department has to be a good fit for it?

    Comment


    • #17
      Funny thing to do.......

      Don't get discouraged.

      When the older guys give you grief about workin' on the "Box" a funny lil' thing that I used to do is remind 'em who is makin' the most money for the Department...... I know in my Department, the "Boxes" make a lot more money than the Engines do. Just the "Penalty Box" that we have in our Station probably brings in more money than all the Engines will do this Fire Season...... Just a thought to lighten the situation. You know the people you work with better than I do, maybe it'll fly or maybe it'll fall like a ton of turds..... The personnel working on the "Boxes" make more money hourly than the Engine personnel do as an incentive.

      Would putting the new schedule to a vote and running the schedule for 6 months help? Then in 6 months, everybody votes and which ever schedule was liked best wins..... No whinin' and no complainin'. At least this way you can say that at least you gave the schedule a chance. I hate to read when people in our profession are afraid of change, and that is a majority of why we are sometimes fearful of what may improve our jobs. I believe that we work in a progressive occupation; fires burn different, cars crash different, etc. And yet we refuse to adapt within our working environments.
      "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

      Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

      Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

      Comment


      • #18
        Making Money?

        Most urban departments prevent / suppress more fire loss than they take in from ambulance billing.

        DCFD protects $150B in property. 0.1% of that value is $150M, our total budget.
        DCFD EMS transports 65,000 per year. Even if we recaptured 100% of billing thats only $26M. In reality we only collect $9M.

        Things are similar nationwide. Very rarely does 911 EMS collections even pay for the staffing required to make the transports. If it did, more than likely, FDs would be out of the business because some private company would spend a little money lobbying for the service.

        Fire departments 'make money' like the rest of the city does: providing services that citizens want in exchange for their property / income / sales taxes.

        Comment


        • #19
          Not true across the country.....

          Your statement about ambulances not making Departments money is not necessarily true across the country.....
          One of my Departments is constantly and consistantly actually making money from their transports. Enough money is made that the personnel that staff the "Penalty Boxes" are almost 100% self sufficient. Included in the budget is vehicle replacement every two years, medical equipment replacement, the manpower and there is also enough monies left over that a small portion "rolls over" each fiscal year.
          Our districts used to be scrutinized by a Private Ambulance Company and sometimes still are. They're just waiting for an opportunity to come in and provide the service..... the simple fact is that they can't because, we are a Fire Department Ambulance and have the capabilities of providing so many services that a Private Ambulance Company can't.
          Our billing recovery rate is a little over 50%, the last time I checked...... It's been awhile since I ran on the Box. At one time, the Ambulances were also paying for some of the personnel on the Engines.....
          "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

          Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

          Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

          Comment


          • #20
            Another thought......

            Some of our Medic Engines (Assessment Engines) are even able to turn a profit. The medical equipment replacement is a lot lower for them, since they may have to replace first/second round meds, I.V. setups and a few "nickel and dime" items...... I'd like to see a Private Ambulance try and replace the service they provide........ Don't think so.
            "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

            Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

            Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

            Comment


            • #21
              SBrooks

              I just did some math..... when I took the number of transports you gave 65,000 and divided that by the amount of money you gave 26 Million, I came up with an average of $400 per transport. Our average transport, the last time I did billing is in the range of $1,400 for A.L.S. service and our Medic Assessment is in the range of $700. As far as the numbers that we transport and bill for, I couldn't tell ya...... It's been many years since I've had to crunch those numbers.
              Like I typed earlier, we also bill when we roll our Medic Engines. If one of our ambulances transports then we don't double bill the patient. If we have to have the local Private Ambulance transport (which sometimes they do, because our districts get "hammered") we bill.
              I am not sure how D.C. runs, but I am interested so if you could educate me and let me know I would appreciate it.
              "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

              Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

              Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

              Comment


              • #22
                DC runs a Basic Engine or an ALS Engine or a basic Truck on all Bravo, Charlie, or Delta runs, roughly 80% of EMS calls.

                At the same time, a transport unit is dispatched. If it is a BLS run, generally it will be an ambulances staffed with firefighters, though there are still a few 'civilian' BLS employees. If a BLS unit is too far away by the CAD, a closer ALS unit is sent. If it's an ALS run, an ALS unit is sent. If it's too far away, a closer BLS unit will be sent as well. The ALS transport units are staffed by a 'civilian' paramedic/I and a 'civilian' EMT. The EPs are staffed by one FF/I or FF/P.

                There are no 'private' ambulances running 911 calls in DC. There is one Maryland based volunteer rescue squad that runs some calls on the edge of the city, if they are called on their 10 digit phone number - we send a first response company with them, and occasionally a Medic unit if they don't send one.

                If you bill and can collect $1400 from people, then you're correct, you could make money at it. It's my impression that insurers won't pay over the medicaid rate, which is no where near $1400 and is pretty close to the $400 i made up.

                My point with the private providers is that if it were profitable to run EMS somewhere, the private providers would lobby for it, because they can, and gain the privelege of earning that money. In your case, you're barely 'profitable' and you don't count the training, dispatching, or housing of apparatus overhead.
                Weekly updates on the world of rope:

                http://rescue2training.com/journal.html

                Comment


                • #23
                  Our system.....

                  Originally posted by DCFDRescue2
                  In your case, you're barely 'profitable' and you don't count the training, dispatching, or housing of apparatus overhead.
                  This is all covered in our "General Fund" that we fund from our taxes. Since we are a County Fire Department we have numerous accounts that we can draw from. I know that County Fire Departments and City Fire Departments are financially different, but the same.
                  "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

                  Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

                  Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FFFRED
                    One question comes to mind for you.

                    Your policy states that one must not work more than 48 hours in a row with out a 12 hour break.

                    How will late runs that lets say carry over 1 or even 2 hours into the next tour thus breaking the 48 hour rule be treated? Will it be 12 hours from the change of tours or will it be 12 hours from the time the member was relieved of duty plus wash up time that a member will be allowed to work again?

                    Just something to consider.

                    FTM-PTB

                    ps-One thing I can see you are going to miss out on is late run OT and OT resulting from awaiting relief when surplus staffing is transfering between companies.

                    I can see this set up as a bonus for those with long commutes and minimal runs during the tour.

                    Best of luck.
                    We've tried for a while to get the 48 hour rule extended to at least 72. As of now when it occurs that someone extends 48 due to late calls it hasn't been scrutinized. Just on scheduled time such as taking overtime.

                    In addition to those with long commutes, I could see an advantage to those of us with off duty jobs and businesses as well, having less mornings with potential late runs interfering with them. Stay safe.
                    FTM-PTB-RFB
                    IACOJ

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by fyrmnk
                      We've tried for a while to get the 48 hour rule extended to at least 72. As of now when it occurs that someone extends 48 due to late calls it hasn't been scrutinized. Just on scheduled time such as taking overtime.

                      In addition to those with long commutes, I could see an advantage to those of us with off duty jobs and businesses as well, having less mornings with potential late runs interfering with them. Stay safe.
                      Ah never considered the second job aspect.

                      Stay safe.

                      FTM-PTB

                      Comment

                      300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                      Collapse

                      Upper 300x250

                      Collapse

                      Taboola

                      Collapse

                      Leader

                      Collapse
                      Working...
                      X