Announcement

Collapse

Firehouse.com Forum Rules & Guidelines

Forum Rules & Guidelines

Not Permitted or Tolerated:
• Advertising and/or links of commercial, for-profit websites, products, and/or services is not permitted. If you have a need to advertise on Firehouse.com please contact sales@firehouse.com
• Fighting/arguing
• Cyber-bullying
• Swearing
• Name-calling and/or personal attacks
• Spamming
• Typing in all CAPS
• “l33t speak” - Substituting characters for letters in an effort to represent a word or phrase. (example: M*****ive)
• Distribution of another person’s personal information, regardless of whether or not said information is public knowledge and whether or not an individual has permission to post said personal information
• Piracy advocation of any kind
• Racist, sexual, hate type defamatory, religious, political, or sexual commentary.
• Multiple forum accounts

Forum Posting Guidelines:

Posts must be on-topic, non-disruptive and relevant to the firefighting community. Post only in a mature and responsible way that contributes to the discussion at hand. Posting relevant information, helpful suggestions and/or constructive criticism is a great way to contribute to the community.

Post in the correct forum and have clear titles for your threads.

Please post in English or provide a translation.

There are moderators and admins who handle these forums with care, do not resort to self-help, instead please utilize the reporting option. Be mature and responsible for yourself and your posts. If you are offended by another member utilize the reporting option. All reported posts will be addressed and dealt with as deemed appropriate by Firehouse.com staff.

Firehouse.com Moderation Process:
Effective immediately, the following moderation process will take effect. User(s) whose posts are determined by Firehouse.com staff to be in violation of any of the rules above will EARN the following reprimand(s) in the moderation process:
1. An initial warning will be issued.
2. A Final Warning will be issued if a user is found to be in violation a second time.
3. A 3-day suspension will be issued if the user continues to break the forum rules.
4. A 45-day suspension will be issued if the user is found to be a habitual rule breaker.
5. Habitual rule breakers that have exhausted all of the above will receive a permanent life-time ban that will be strictly enforced. Reinstatement will not be allowed – there is no appeal process.

Subsequent accounts created in an effort to side-step the rules and moderation process are subject to automatic removal without notice. Firehouse.com reserves the right to expedite the reprimand process for any users as it is deemed necessary. Any user in the moderation process may be required to review and agree to by email the terms and conditions listed above before their account is re-instated (except for those that are banned).

Firehouse.com reserves the right to edit and/or remove any post or member, at any time, for any reason without notice. Firehouse.com also reserves the right to warn, suspend, and/or ban, any member, at any time, for any reason.

Firehouse.com values the active participation we have in our forums. Please ensure your posts are tasteful and tactful. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
See more
See less

Private EMS taking over 911

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Private EMS taking over 911

    Fire department I'm in runs EMS including non emergent transports in town and out of town. This obviously creates huge operational and staffing problems that effect our fire ground and 911 ems calls. But because the city and fire department sees a revenue they use scare tactics such as... if we bring in a private transport company they will steal 911 calls from us. Getting rid of non emergency transports we will lose staffing because there's a "huge income" from it. Command staff and city see half million in revenue but not exactly sure how much is profit due to transports costing a lot of overtime, personal oncall, broken equipment, maintenence, fuel, broken ambulances. Curious if any departments had a problem with a private company trying to take 911 calls and if that could truly happen.

  • #2
    I always thought Fire Depts should stick with Emergency EMS only.

    And if the non-emergency transports put your emergency response in jeopardy it does not sound like a viable income stream.

    Maybe replace those non-emergency transport funds with higher property taxes?

    Are you totally tax funded Fire and EMS with no billing your taxpayers for fire or EMS?

    Comment


    • #3
      I always thought fire departments should stick to fighting fires, and leave EMS to EMS professionals, that are an department within the city or county, handle EMS calls.
      If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

      FF/EMT/DBP

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by drparasite View Post
        I always thought fire departments should stick to fighting fires, and leave EMS to EMS professionals, that are an department within the city or county, handle EMS calls.
        Our fire dept ARE EMS professionals....
        75-80% of our runs are EMS runs. What kind of a "professional" fire department are you going to have with a 75% reduction in your fire dept. staffing and budget???
        Buggy Whip, vacuum tube, and butter churn factories all went out of business if they didn't change with the times.
        BTW, who better to tend to our OWN EMS needs than our own people who'll be there with us from the start???

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by johnsb View Post
          Our fire dept ARE EMS professionals....
          so they are on the ambulance or the engine? If they are on the ambulance, and transport to the hospital, than I agree, they are EMS professionals. If they are on the engine, they are firefighter first responders aka fire professionals.
          Originally posted by johnsb View Post
          75-80% of our runs are EMS runs. What kind of a "professional" fire department are you going to have with a 75% reduction in your fire dept. staffing and budget???
          So you admit that the fire department is only involved in EMS because it increases their staffing and budget by 75%. thank you for admitting that, many aren't willing to do that

          I agree that 80% of your runs are EMS runs; imagine your response when you are unavailable to be first due to a working fire because you are on an EMS run. I imagine you would be very vocal and the first to call the papers when you were unable to handle that house fire with kids trapped because you were on an EMS call waiting for the ambulance to show up. Imagine if you had a dedicated EMS system that was given enough resources to handle the call volume in a rapid manner, so your call volume went from 80% EMS run and 20% fire runs to 80% fire run and 20% EMS run?

          And lets say you have a 4 person ambulance crew, and 2 hop off to take the ambulance to an EMS call... now they transport to a hospital out of town, so your engine has to run short. Makes it tough. OR you can have 2 dedicated firefighters assigned to the ambulance (which many would gladly give up), now you are paying those firefighters extra do to ems, as well as requiring all these firefighter training which they won't be using because their primary responsibility is EMS.

          Has your fire risk gone down? why are you going to lose any staffing or budget? if anything, you will no longer have to compensate for those fire units being unavailable for fire calls because they are tied up on EMS calls.
          Originally posted by johnsb View Post
          Buggy Whip, vacuum tube, and butter churn factories all went out of business if they didn't change with the times.
          BTW, who better to tend to our OWN EMS needs than our own people who'll be there with us from the start???
          I don't know what any of that means, but I'm pretty sure if has nothing to do with the topic at hand.... and it's quite insulting to professional EMS providers to say they can't do anything well unless they are firefighters too....
          If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

          FF/EMT/DBP

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by drparasite View Post
            so they are on the ambulance or the engine? If they are on the ambulance, and transport to the hospital, than I agree, they are EMS professionals. If they are on the engine, they are firefighter first responders aka fire professionals.So you admit that the fire department is only involved in EMS because it increases their staffing and budget by 75%. thank you for admitting that, many aren't willing to do that

            I agree that 80% of your runs are EMS runs; imagine your response when you are unavailable to be first due to a working fire because you are on an EMS run. I imagine you would be very vocal and the first to call the papers when you were unable to handle that house fire with kids trapped because you were on an EMS call waiting for the ambulance to show up. Imagine if you had a dedicated EMS system that was given enough resources to handle the call volume in a rapid manner, so your call volume went from 80% EMS run and 20% fire runs to 80% fire run and 20% EMS run?

            And lets say you have a 4 person ambulance crew, and 2 hop off to take the ambulance to an EMS call... now they transport to a hospital out of town, so your engine has to run short. Makes it tough. OR you can have 2 dedicated firefighters assigned to the ambulance (which many would gladly give up), now you are paying those firefighters extra do to ems, as well as requiring all these firefighter training which they won't be using because their primary responsibility is EMS.

            Has your fire risk gone down? why are you going to lose any staffing or budget? if anything, you will no longer have to compensate for those fire units being unavailable for fire calls because they are tied up on EMS calls.
            I don't know what any of that means, but I'm pretty sure if has nothing to do with the topic at hand.... and it's quite insulting to professional EMS providers to say they can't do anything well unless they are firefighters too....
            Wow! What a response. Gotta say I didn't see something like that coming.

            It is my understanding that the majority of departments spend the majority of their time and energy on medical responses. Emergencies and fires not so much. How long would the media, government and public sit back and watch the fire department spend most of their time waiting for responses that aren't coming. The available money is limited. It has to be spent efficiently. If firefighters and firefighting units are missing fires and non-medical emergencies due to medical responses the answer is to get some more ambulances added. Blowing up the entire department doesn't seem to be the answer here.

            I have to admit I liked the non-medical response fire department I joined over 30 years ago. We did turn out on certaon first aid and cardiac responses but training was limited to first aid and CPR. But that has gone the way of the dinosaur in my city and most others. For fires and emergencies (medical and non-medical alike) the answer is always to get an appropriate resource on scene as quickly as possible. Combining EMS and fire seems to be the answer. Sure some fine tuning is required. But fiscal responsibility is required.

            In my department the vast majority of firefighters are Certified First Responders. This is a level a little bit below EMT in New York State. Engines respond and provide medical care until the arrival of an ambulance. They then take up unless the EMT's (two per bus) need help with CPR or a carrydown, etc. Entire EMS system is part of the department but ambulances do not generally respond from firehouses, which were built long before fire and EMS merged here. There just isn't space for the ambulances.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am going to admit that I have mixed feelings on this one.

              I started my fire and EMS career in a college student staffed and run fire department and rescue squad (which covered 12 small towns as the primary EMS transport agency). I liked doing both, but they were separate though several of the members overlapped and ran with both fire and rescue, including myself.

              From there, I moved to a small town where fire and rescue were separate agencies Fire did not run any EMS. Then I moved back to the area of my hometown where the local VFD did EMS first response for a separate EMS agency. Then, I briefly was a call firefighter on a combination department that did thier own EMS transport, and during the summer could be quite busy, often leaving the fire side pretty short staffed.. After that, I went several years not running any EMS as the VFDs which I became a part of were not involved in any type of EMS first response or transport.

              Currently I work full-time for an agency that does not transport but does ALS first response with transport being handled by a separate parish--based EMS agency. I work part-time for an agency that follows the same model in the same parish. I also volunteer for 2 volunteer departments, one which does BLS first response and one that is not involved in EMS.

              So I do have fair amount of EMS experience in a number of different models.

              In my opinion, the best model is a separate fire department and EMS agency. That being said, in most places a fire department first response capability will almost always be needed due to the fact that in most places EMS will never be funded to the point that there will be enough available ambulances to beat the fire department to the scene. And most of the time, that model works well. However, there have been times that we have had multiple units tied up at EMS calls waiting for ambulances from surrounding stations to make the scene when a fire call has come in, and yes, we did respond short staffed. In fairness, there have also been times, especially during brush fire season, when we have been tied up on multiple fires (including our mutual aid either at our fires or simultaneous fires in their districts) with additional fires coming in, so it's not only an issue with EMS.

              One the other side of the river, most of the fire districts and the city handle their own transports as there is no parish-wide EMS agency. I know of one fairly large districts that if all 3 of their staffed ambulances are out, they are left with 3 firefighters (plus some volunteers) for about 200 square miles. And there have been times the reserve bus has been out with 2 of the 3 remaining duty staff.

              Did it affect our capabilities at the fire? In some cases yes, and in some cases no. Bottom line is much of what we have as a fire district, in both our staffing (11 full-time) and apparatus have to do with our visibility and our reputation as an EMS agency. In addition, I have no doubt that there are many lives saved on ther EMS side that would not have been saved if the parish-EMS agency was the only responding EMS agency. Does that make this the perfect system? No. We are lucky that we do have a pretty solid volunteer response supplementing our paid staff (Actually, at times it's really the paid staff supplementing the volunteers) to cover the fire side when we have multiple EMS calls as well as providing backup on the EMS runs. Without that strong volunteer support, likely it would have been a very different story when we have responded to fires while being stretched thin on EMS runs.

              I know there are small districts in this area that do not have either the volunteer or mutual aid support that we do, that have run into some pretty severe problems while dealing with multiple fires and/or EMS calls.

              As far as the fire department doing routine transports, I am not in favor of at all. There was a small city fire department that did that, until they got caught very short of resources multiple times, and a s a result no longer do routine transports or transfers.
              Train to fight the fires you fight.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm going to highlight several important things here
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                That being said, in most places a fire department first response capability will almost always be needed due to the fact that in most places EMS will never be funded to the point that there will be enough available ambulances to beat the fire department to the scene.
                This is a statement that I have said for years.
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                And most of the time, that model works well.
                depends on your point of view. if you are looking at it from the EMS side, the FD is making up for an understaffed and underfunded EMS system, and preventing more EMS units from being funded. But the FD uses it to justify more jobs, which is great, until those units are tied up on EMS calls and unable to handle fire calls.
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                As far as the fire department doing routine transports, I am not in favor of at all. There was a small city fire department that did that, until they got caught very short of resources multiple times, and a s a result no longer do routine transports or transfers.
                having the FD run the ambulance always sounds like a good idea, until EMS starts tying up FD resources and making them unavailable for fire calls. seen it happen too many times.

                Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                Wow! What a response. Gotta say I didn't see something like that coming.

                It is my understanding that the majority of departments spend the majority of their time and energy on medical responses. Emergencies and fires not so much. How long would the media, government and public sit back and watch the fire department spend most of their time waiting for responses that aren't coming. The available money is limited. It has to be spent efficiently. If firefighters and firefighting units are missing fires and non-medical emergencies due to medical responses the answer is to get some more ambulances added. Blowing up the entire department doesn't seem to be the answer here.
                I agree, it has to be spent efficiently; so why not spend it on more ambulances, so the FD is able to handle the fire calls? why did the FD get involved in EMS in the first place? we both know back in the day the FD didn't go on EMS calls.

                Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                I have to admit I liked the non-medical response fire department I joined over 30 years ago. We did turn out on certaon first aid and cardiac responses but training was limited to first aid and CPR. But that has gone the way of the dinosaur in my city and most others. For fires and emergencies (medical and non-medical alike) the answer is always to get an appropriate resource on scene as quickly as possible. Combining EMS and fire seems to be the answer. Sure some fine tuning is required. But fiscal responsibility is required.

                In my department the vast majority of firefighters are Certified First Responders. This is a level a little bit below EMT in New York State. Engines respond and provide medical care until the arrival of an ambulance. They then take up unless the EMT's (two per bus) need help with CPR or a carrydown, etc. Entire EMS system is part of the department but ambulances do not generally respond from firehouses, which were built long before fire and EMS merged here. There just isn't space for the ambulances.
                oh please. the only reason ambulances don't respond from firehouses is because FDNY prefers street corner posting. it has NOTHING to do with lack of space; otherwise there would never be any room to add a ladder to an area. I would agree that the old firehouses don't have any space; but if FDNY wanted to, they could simply build EMS quarters into every new fire station that was built. but we both know that isn't what the firefighters want, especially when that truck can leave for a call at the start of it's shift, and not see the station for 8 hours.

                FDNY is not a shining example of how EMS should be run. FDNY's hostile takeover over the EMS system in NYC has fixed some things, and made the EMS system even worse. Shame http://fdnysucks.com/ has been taken down, the author detailed many of the failures of the takeover.... https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/f...ity-vs-nyc-ems has some good info, although it is dated. you can also look at https://emtlife.com/threads/ems-in-new-york-city.21301/

                the only people who have anything good to say about FDNY EMS is people currently in the system; outsiders and former employees don't speak too highly about it.

                Just so we are all clear, I am not advocating for gutting the fire department, but rather an appropriate allocation of funding and resources needs to happen. I don't think cutting the FD's staffing and funding by 75% is a good thing (and we all know 75% of your funding doesn't go towards EMS related stuff), unless, the FD is that bloated and overfunded; however, is EMS in understaffed and underfunded, and is causing the FD to need to hire additional staff and additional engines, well........ Last I checked, your fire risk has nothing to do with EMS calls, so not going on EMS calls shouldn't affect your need for staffing, unless you've been forced to put on additional staffing to handle the EMS call volume..... So if your administration can't justify the jobs based on their current fire risk, you might need new administration.

                I've been career EMS, career Fire, volunteer EMS, volunteer Fire, and I've seen FD's take over EMS thinking they can do it better, only to find that it wasn't as easy as they thought it would be. Or more accurately, they absorbed EMS, but still under funded the system and found that many of the issues that occurred before the merger were even worse after, but now that the previous infrastructure was gutted, there was no going back. Even better when they see half a million in revenue to be gained by billing, only to find they don't get that much and it costs a million to do what is needed to do EMS properly.

                I'm pro EMS, and pro Fire, but you don't see me advocating sending an engine or an ambulance to a burglar alarm because the cops have an extended ETA.
                If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                FF/EMT/DBP

                Comment


                • #9
                  You are absolutely wrong on the space issue.

                  You are absolutely wrong in thinking firefighter preferences have any clout whatsoever in the decision-making process.

                  You are absolutely wrong if you think there have been "ladders added". I can only think of one ladder company that was added in the last 50 years.

                  There have been two new firehouses built in the same 50 years (that I am aware of). They are both in the last decade and both DO have EMS in quarters with them.

                  EMS in New York City prior to the merger was run by the Health and Hospitals Corporation. I can't say I know much about that outfit. I can say that the merger into the FDNY has improved training and equipment. Salaries are not what they should be but they sucked before the merger too. I know there are those who resisted the merger big time. I never understood why because their job sucked. And they never got over it. Of course the vast, vast majority of them are not even working anymore. Part of the merger was the incorporation into the response matrix of CFR-D engines. This has benefited the public greatly. CFR-D engines have saved thousands of lives. When a bus arrives there are five fellow FDNY'ers on scene. This helps with any security issues. Many EMT's now take the promotion to firefighter which is a great added opportunity. Fire and Medical work very well and very amicably side by side a million times a year. You posted links from 15-20 years ago which likely came from a malcontent with a beef.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Fair point.

                    I mean, when they upgraded those engine companies to squad companies, and added their secondary vehicle, they found the space. and its not like FDNY has spare engines scattered through the city, some even with hose and equipment on them, that could be relocated to put two ambulances in the house, so they would have quarters.

                    Or even more beneficial, have FDNY build dedicated EMS stations, similar to fire stations. Not just just big garages to store the trucks (I know they have them, I once stopped by the one on staten island).

                    I'm not going to debate with you how much FDNY EMS sucks, or how having a promotion from EMT to firefighter was more to add to the diversity of FDNY, and not the benefit the EMT, or having it as a promotion is an insult to all the FDNY EMS workers, because it makes it very clear that FDNY considers those ambulances works to be beneath them, because you get "promoted" to a suppression position. I know many FDNY guys, and several former FDNY EMS guys who are now suppression guys. They are very happy to never have to work on the ambulance ever again.

                    I said it before and I will say it again: "the only people who have anything good to say about FDNY EMS is people currently in the system; outsiders and former employees don't speak too highly about it." Yes, the training is better, but the job still sucks.
                    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                    FF/EMT/DBP

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by drparasite View Post
                      Fair point.

                      I mean, when they upgraded those engine companies to squad companies, and added their secondary vehicle, they found the space. and its not like FDNY has spare engines scattered through the city, some even with hose and equipment on them, that could be relocated to put two ambulances in the house, so they would have quarters.

                      Or even more beneficial, have FDNY build dedicated EMS stations, similar to fire stations. Not just just big garages to store the trucks (I know they have them, I once stopped by the one on staten island).

                      I'm not going to debate with you how much FDNY EMS sucks, or how having a promotion from EMT to firefighter was more to add to the diversity of FDNY, and not the benefit the EMT, or having it as a promotion is an insult to all the FDNY EMS workers, because it makes it very clear that FDNY considers those ambulances works to be beneath them, because you get "promoted" to a suppression position. I know many FDNY guys, and several former FDNY EMS guys who are now suppression guys. They are very happy to never have to work on the ambulance ever again.

                      I said it before and I will say it again: "the only people who have anything good to say about FDNY EMS is people currently in the system; outsiders and former employees don't speak too highly about it." Yes, the training is better, but the job still sucks.
                      There are a handful of Squads and a few reserve rigs. it is not like every firehouse has them. Or the space for them. I am glad you have stopped by the Staten Island facility. I have "stopped by" and worked in about half the firehouses in the city and I know for a fact there are issues with space.

                      There is not a lot of land or money to build new facilities. it will have to happen over time. When the merger occurred there was no way to immediately build all those facilities.

                      Firefighter is a promotion because there is increased risk, training, responsibility and difficulty involved. It should be a promotion. Your diversity point is an accurate one.

                      The FDNY EMT salary should be higher. That is probably true almost everywhere. After all, many do it for free. The FDNY does not set the salary. It is negotiated directly with the mayor's office by the union. FDNY has no ability to raise salaries.
                      FDNY could use more buses. That also is probably true in many places.
                      EMS as a career is difficult and stressful. The hours suck. There is a lot of burnout. I don't think FDNY EMS as a rule is much suckier than most.
                      What do these outsiders really know that allows them to pass judgment? What are their specific issues?
                      As I posted previously there were many in EMS who resisted the merger big time. No one really knows why since they had no way of knowing the outcome. They resisted until they retired or quit. Maybe they felt like they were playing second fiddle to firefighters. And maybe they were. But that wasn't anything new. They never compared to firefighters under Health and Hospitals Corporation either.
                      Ask current FDNY EMS employees how they feel. Again, salary will likely come up. But aside from that I doubt you'll hear much negativity. This department has embraced and improved EMS in the city of new York.

                      You should stop using the outdated opinions of a handful of malcontents as your source of information.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am not going to get into the ongoing FDNY EMS debate as I know very, very little about it. I do know at one point I heard stories that the EMS side of the house felt like they were be treated as 2nd class citizens. I have no idea if this was even true, or if it was, it's still the case.

                        I think the bigger issue that in many places fire based EMS transport has taken the focus off fire response, in terms of both staffing and training. Members on engines often spend time making EMS responses rather than training, and when they do train, a fair amount of the time it is focused on EMS skills. While I understand the value of EMS in the fire service, and I also understand that in places it is needed to assist and support an underfunded and understaffed EMS system, it's important to understand that it can, and often does, affects the ability of the fire department to train for and respond to fires, which at the end of day, is our primary responsibility.

                        As I have stated, in the case of my full-time gig, it has given us the visibility to allow us to constantly have the support of the community. It has given us what we have in terms of apparatus and our staffing, but there have been times that it has caused us to scramble when working a manpower intensive EMS call or multiple EMS calls. Is that a worthwhile trade-off? I guess that would be a personal decision that each of us would have to make.

                        I have no doubt that it has caused problems in other departments and other areas. I know of one fire district in this area that took over EMS transport from a private and alsmost had to shutdown due to a lack of collections. They had to request an emergency milage increase vote to make up the shortfall.

                        So at the end of day, i do beleive that a EMS only transport agency, often without FD first response is the best model ... Assuming that the EMS agency is fully funded to provide adequate buses and quick response vehicles to fully provide the needed response resources.
                        Train to fight the fires you fight.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would think that this centers around money, not that other factors don't exist, but its the re-occurring theme. Like the concern over a private service taking over 911, where the private service is geared to profit, which isn't the bulk of 911 medical calls we all make on a daily basis. From my experience, private service is perfectly happy working side by side 911, taking the runs that pay them. It's not to exclude the idea that if the governing body could ask a private company to do the service for less than what they expend for EMS, but the bottom line is private is a business, and money is the motivating factor.

                          There are many different structures of fire service, not to mention the different political structures behind those fire departments. All seem to be looking to do the best with the money on hand. I also agree that separate services would yield the best quality, provided they are staffed adequately. Adequately is a lovely argumentable term. I look at it as the fact that fire departments don't maintain it's staffing and equipment for the worst case scenarios. We make back up plans for that, like automatic and mutual aid agreements, or re-call staff. The Fire-EMS merger is similar to that. It is a way to provide better service for less money. Some departments are probably good fits for a merged model while others may have a rough time of it.

                          To take this one step further, look at the public safety department models combining police, fire & EMS. Although I have no familiarity with such a beast it could be the next 'thing' for the bean counters looking to trim down the budget (or just to get that new skate park and aquatic center they promised voters). I think Kalamazoo MI was the parent of this type of model, but if anyone has experience with it, I'd love to learn more about it.




                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            There are a handful of Squads and a few reserve rigs. it is not like every firehouse has them. Or the space for them. I am glad you have stopped by the Staten Island facility. I have "stopped by" and worked in about half the firehouses in the city and I know for a fact there are issues with space.

                            There is not a lot of land or money to build new facilities. it will have to happen over time. When the merger occurred there was no way to immediately build all those facilities.
                            fine you win, I'm done arguing about the space. Yes, there are issues with space. I know in 15 years there has been no new construction in NYC.
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            Firefighter is a promotion because there is increased risk, training, responsibility and difficulty involved. It should be a promotion.
                            and yet, people can be hired right off the street into that "promoted" role. It's a completely different job description. It's like betting promoted from FDNY firefighter to NYPD cop. two completely different jobs, and I'm pretty sure you would have issues with NYPD offering a promotion to anyone who wanted to be promoted from firefighter to cop. But you don't seem to get it, so we will agree to disagree.
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            Your diversity point is an accurate one.
                            I know, it's one of the reasons they implemented the promotion process.
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            The FDNY EMT salary should be higher. That is probably true almost everywhere. After all, many do it for free. The FDNY does not set the salary. It is negotiated directly with the mayor's office by the union. FDNY has no ability to raise salaries.
                            actually, more people are firefighters for free, and yet, firefighter are making 6 figures after.... 6 years? I don't remember the actual steps. And if you don't think the FDNY brass could push the NYC administration/ mayors office for more money for EMS, than you are incredibly naive....
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            FDNY could use more buses. That also is probably true in many places.
                            we aren't talking about many places.... we are talking about FDNY, and the number of trucks is set by FDNY. And you said FDNY administration really cares about EMS.
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            EMS as a career is difficult and stressful. The hours suck. There is a lot of burnout. I don't think FDNY EMS as a rule is much suckier than most.
                            What do these outsiders really know that allows them to pass judgment? What are their specific issues?
                            As I posted previously there were many in EMS who resisted the merger big time. No one really knows why since they had no way of knowing the outcome. They resisted until they retired or quit. Maybe they felt like they were playing second fiddle to firefighters. And maybe they were. But that wasn't anything new. They never compared to firefighters under Health and Hospitals Corporation either.
                            I really wish that website was still up... it had much more updated information from an existing FDNY paramedic.
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            Ask current FDNY EMS employees how they feel. Again, salary will likely come up. But aside from that I doubt you'll hear much negativity.
                            Fair statement... so when FDNY EMT Joseph Cassano said "saying everyone just wanted to be firefighters, not EMTs ? and accused his patients of using ambulances because Medicare would pay for them and not cabs" he was lying? I mean, he was much happier when he was "promoted" to firefighter, which seems to be a common thread, despite the "increased risk, training, responsibility and difficulty involved"

                            I have worked with several FDNY people, including many who were FDNY EMS before they were hired by the suppression side. Most don't have good things to say about their time on the ambulance, are glad they don't have to ride the ambulance anymore, and are much happier working on an engine because of the better working conditions. But maybe they are all wrong, and FDNY EMS is a great place to work..... who knows.
                            Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                            So at the end of day, i do beleive that a EMS only transport agency, often without FD first response is the best model ... Assuming that the EMS agency is fully funded to provide adequate buses and quick response vehicles to fully provide the needed response resources.
                            I'm inclined to agree. There are going to be times when you need manpower, and an engine is often a great way to get those hands to the scene. But EMS should be able to stand on it's own, without needing the FD to stop the clock or the bandaid an understaffed EMS system.. Sadly that doesn't happen, and having the FD take over EMS (because they WILL fix things) usually ends in disaster or results in a lot of unfulfilled promises.
                            If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                            FF/EMT/DBP

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It is you who is naive when it comes to the intricacies of public sector labor negotiations in NYC. It is complex so I won't go into it here and it would likely bore everyone to death, including me.

                              About Cassano's quotes:

                              1) The public does at times abuse the EMS system. I am sure this is true in many places and is not the fault of the department. It has nothing to do with any discussion about the effect of the merger on NYC EMS..

                              2) There are a lot of people who want to leave medical for suppression. This is because the suppression side is a better job. I don't deny that but it doesn't mean that the merger somehow destroyed EMS in NYC. The job may not be great but it is better than it was before the merger. That is the point here. Go talk to people who were EMT's under Health and Hospitals.

                              3) Cassano has made vile racist comments and had to resign from EMS to avoid termination. And he should not have been allowed to become a firefighter in this department. He has already been suspended for vile behavior. He should not be the spokesperson or poster boy for anything.

                              Last edited by captnjak; 09-25-2018, 11:42 AM.

                              Comment

                              300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                              Collapse

                              300x600 Forums Only

                              Collapse

                              Taboola

                              Collapse

                              Upper 300x250

                              Collapse

                              Lower 970x90

                              Collapse

                              Lower 728x90

                              Collapse

                              Lower 300x50

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X