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PAID vs PAID vs IAFF??? wow

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    Another point to consider is what if you get hurt at your vollie house? Your career job isn't going to pay you workmen's comp and I doubt the union will fight really hard for you. I'm sure there's a lot more to this issue.
    This argument that someone always presents makes no sense at all. No **** his career job won't be paying him workmans comp and the union won't be fighting for it. Why would they. He wasn't hurt at work. If I got hurt on a camping trip with a local outdoors club, would I expect workmans comp to cover me or my union to go battle it out for me? NO. Why would I or anyone else expect my employer to cover me for something completely unrelated to my employment?

    And for that matter, most volunteer departments with half a brain have insurance for such injuries, and if they're a municipal organization, they would also be covered by that town's workman's comp, even as a volunteer. Which makes the argument even more pointless.

    I can fully understand a union having an issue with someone volunteering where they work, even though it usually isn't actually taking jobs away. But a situation like this is complete bull**** and there isn't a single intelligent argument anyone anywhere ever could present to the contrary.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

    Comment


    • #17
      Here are two reasons why volunteering by union firefighters is frowned upon:

      1. When you are volunteering at a volunteer fire department (VFD), you are subjecting
      yourself to the same hazards (smoke, heat, bloodborne pathogens, hazardous
      chemicals, etc.) that you are exposed to at your career fire department (CFD).

      If you incur medical problems (cancer, etc.) that may result in you needing disability,
      early retirement or other off-duty compensation, the CFD will most offer these benefits,
      not the VFD. Why should the CFD pay for these benefits, when you may have been
      exposed wholly or partially to the hazards at the VFD? Since you are a career
      firefighter, it would be assumed that you were exposed to these injuries, conditions,
      etc. while career firefighting, when in fact you where wholly or partly exposed while
      conducting duty with the VFD?

      2. Another reason, is the rest issue. When you get off-duty at a CFD, you may be
      extremely tired from all the activities (calls, training, etc.) that occured on your shift.
      When you get off shift, you are expected to rest up prior to your next shift. If you go
      to volunteering, you do not get that rest and come back on-duty at a career station
      being tired. You are expected to report to the CFD healthy, fit and ready to perform
      duty. If you were spending your off duty days volunteer firefighting, etc, you did not
      get that needed rest. Your CFD pays you to be duty ready to accomplish the
      firefighting, rescue and EMS duties that are to occur on your shift. When you are
      exhausted when reporting to your career department because of volunteering, then you
      are not ready to perform duty. If you call in sick or take vacation days, because you
      were exausted from volunteering, this affects the manpower capability of your CFD.

      I hope this sheds some light on why career firefighters are discouraged from volunteering with VFD's.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FIRE117 View Post
        Here are two reasons why volunteering by union firefighters is frowned upon:

        1. When you are volunteering at a volunteer fire department (VFD), you are subjecting yourself to the same hazards (smoke, heat, bloodborne pathogens, hazardous chemicals, etc.) that you are exposed to at your career fire department (CFD).

        If you incur medical problems (cancer, etc.) that may result in you needing disability, early retirement or other off-duty compensation, the CFD will most offer these benefits, not the VFD. Why should the CFD pay for these benefits, when you may have been exposed wholly or partially to the hazards at the VFD? Since you are a career firefighter, it would be assumed that you were exposed to these injuries, conditions, etc. while career firefighting, when in fact you where wholly or partly exposed while conducting duty with the VFD?
        Seems like a reason the employer would want to stop you from volunteering, not the union.

        2. Another reason, is the rest issue. When you get off-duty at a CFD, you may be extremely tired from all the activities (calls, training, etc.) that occured on your shift.
        When you get off shift, you are expected to rest up prior to your next shift. If you go to volunteering, you do not get that rest and come back on-duty at a career station being tired. You are expected to report to the CFD healthy, fit and ready to perform duty. If you were spending your off duty days volunteer firefighting, etc, you did not get that needed rest. Your CFD pays you to be duty ready to accomplish the firefighting, rescue and EMS duties that are to occur on your shift. When you are exhausted when reporting to your career department because of volunteering, then you are not ready to perform duty. If you call in sick or take vacation days, because you were exausted from volunteering, this affects the manpower capability of your CFD.

        I hope this sheds some light on why career firefighters are discouraged from volunteering with VFD's.
        So, the Union should really ban ALL off duty activities and side jobs. Is that the case?
        I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

        "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

        "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
          So, the Union should really ban ALL off duty activities and side jobs. Is that the case?
          The Union shouldn't -- and doesn't -- "ban" any side jobs. It just prohibits belonging to rival organizations. No more; no less. It isn't an unreasonable thing to ask.
          "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
          sigpic
          The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
            The Union shouldn't -- and doesn't -- "ban" any side jobs. It just prohibits belonging to rival organizations. No more; no less. It isn't an unreasonable thing to ask.
            I was responding to the rationale that it is a good idea to ban off duty career from volunteering because it would make them more fatigued, thereby affecting their performance in their career position.

            Please read the entire thread next time.
            I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

            "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

            "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
              Please read the entire thread next time.
              I did, thank you, and added a simpler response to the same idiotic straw-man arguments that you were responding to.

              Slow your burn, Chief.
              "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
              sigpic
              The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                Seems like a reason the employer would want to stop you from volunteering, not the union.
                I think you have that backwards.

                The ability to cast doubt on the causation and/or to share the burden for a job-related illness would be a reason the employer would actually want you to volunteer.

                The union would want it's members to not volunteer in order to avoid the possibility of having this debate should an illness occur.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Okay, so I want to thank you everyone for you different reason's and advice. Turns out this was a (Prank), and has been dealt with accordingly. (Chainsaw Wake-Up Call)
                  I'm sorry I stirred up a bunch of bull****... I'm new to this place I don't know all the issues this forum has.
                  I do want to add something though. Be you paid, or volunteer. Your taking the coat to protect. The citizens of the world don't care if your paid or volunteering. All they care about is there house, and all the stuff that's being destroyed in the fire. So with that said, have a wonderful life.
                  btw, this is 2011, yes firefighters die, so don't be another statistic get in shape so you don't die before you get to the fire. Be safe

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by skylarmorris89 View Post
                    Okay, so I want to thank you everyone for you different reason's and advice. Turns out this was a (Prank), and has been dealt with accordingly. (Chainsaw Wake-Up Call)
                    It was obvious to all but the least amongst us. Won't mention any names of course.
                    I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
                      The Union shouldn't -- and doesn't -- "ban" any side jobs. It just prohibits belonging to rival organizations. No more; no less. It isn't an unreasonable thing to ask.
                      So please explain to me how a VFD is a rival organization again?
                      Train to fight the fires you fight.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post
                        The union would want it's members to not volunteer in order to avoid the possibility of having this debate should an illness occur.
                        So, do you take the same position for those guys working off duty as carpenters?
                        I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                        "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                        "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                          It was obvious to all but the least amongst us. Won't mention any names of course.
                          I'm not saying the fourm was a prank, I really had an issue with the Union telling me I couldn't volunteer, but it turned out the letter I was sent was a prank by another fire fighter!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                            So please explain to me how a VFD is a rival organization again?
                            It's already been explained to you on more than one occasion in other threads.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                              So, do you take the same position for those guys working off duty as carpenters?
                              Not the same issue. I was commenting specifically on the potential impact that being a volunteer firefighter could have in regards to a covered occupational illness.

                              A career firefighter who contracts a covered form of cancer for example and has also been serving as a volunteer firefighter could find themselves stuck in a battle over which department's WC insurance is going to cover the illness or how much each will cover.

                              A career firefighter who contracts the same covered form of cancer and works off-duty as a carpenter will not be in the same situation. Their FD employer would cover the illness.

                              As such, the ability to have someone else, at minimum, share the financial impact of an occupational illness would be a welcome situation for the employer and not having any question over who will cover the illness would be a preferable situation for the employee.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by FireMedic049 View Post
                                A career firefighter who contracts a covered form of cancer for example and has also been serving as a volunteer firefighter could find themselves stuck in a battle over which department's WC insurance is going to cover the illness or how much each will cover.

                                A career firefighter who contracts the same covered form of cancer and works off-duty as a carpenter will not be in the same situation. Their FD employer would cover the illness.

                                As such, the ability to have someone else, at minimum, share the financial impact of an occupational illness would be a welcome situation for the employer and not having any question over who will cover the illness would be a preferable situation for the employee.
                                I'll admit that we are straying into territory I don't have any informed knowledge of, so accept my question as it is...

                                Has this actually happened that you (or anyone for that matter) are aware of?
                                I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                                "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                                "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                                Comment

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