I want to become a firefighter, but....

[Lcommadot]

Okay, so after all the things that I have heard from my former manager (he's in the process of applying to a FD), talking to various firefighters I have met, and reading a MOUNTAIN of information about firefighting, I have decided that I would like to begin my education in the field. It seems like a career that I could really dig my heels into. I'm extremely smart, I enjoy working with other people and helping those in need, I enjoy taking risks (except for a fear of heights, but I am determined to get over this), I want to be viewed as an honorable and upstanding member of the community, and I am a very stalwart and determined person. I am positive that I could pass the classes for EMT-B and EMT-P, as well as the Firefighter I & II courses. Even though I am in decent shape, I have started working out so I will be able to handle the immense physical stress of the field.

So here's the hangup - when I was younger (in my teen years ; I am 20 now), I made a lot of bad decisions. I hung out with the wrong crowd, started drinking and doing drugs, and even got into trouble with the law a couple times. Now I COMPLETELY, 100% UNDERSTAND that this is not what a Fire Department is looking for. In my own defense though, I am a completely different person than I was then. I have completely removed myself from all my old acquaintences, I moved back in with my parents, I do not drink or smoke at all anymore, and I have become a manager at my store. I am trying SO hard to make up for all the stupid things I did and all the time I squandered, and then I found THIS : http://www.fireacademy.org/PDF_Files_Courses/mscbrochure_revised_1-7-08.pdf

If you look in the bottom right hand corner of the first page, it states that to become certified in the state of Florida as a Firefighter 1 you must have a record clear of misdemeanors and felonies. This is a problem for me. When I was 18, I was caught driving with a small amount of marijuana and received a ticket for 'Possesion of Marijuana - Under 20 Grams'. This is a misdemeanor. I went to court and and received a verdict of 'Adjudication Withheld'. I am not positive on this but I believe that means I was considered not guilty, though I am not positive as I said. Also, when I was 16, I was charged with 'Aggravated Assault With A Deadly Weapon'. The short story of that is that someone had attacked my best friend, had him on the ground with a knife out, and I hit him in the head with a bottle. My friends all showed up to the trial, the state dropped the case and I received a verdict of 'Nolle Prose'. This means I was acquitted, in essence. My record was sealed when I turned 18.

Now I know that you guys aren't lawyers, but I am very upset by the Florida state requirenment and don't know who else to ask. So after a lengthy post, the question I pose is do you believe I will be able to receive state certification after I take the classes. I am not worried about the Fire Department background check. I am positive I could convince them that I am not the same person that I was when I was younger, and that I deserve to be hired. But the State worries me. If you think it is possible, I would even put in a request for special consideration and go before a State Panel of Firefighters to prove I have changed. I have nothing to hide and am very proud of how much I have changed.

So thank you for taking the time to read this. I would REALLY, REALLY appreciate a response. I am very determined to become a firefighter, and will do anything in my power to show that I am an excellent candidate. But if my prior history makes it 100% impossible for me to become a firefighter ( as in the state will not allow me to become certified), I don't know what other recourse I could take. Thank you very much.

Alex

[eightball31308]

hey alex it is brandon and i want to be a firefighter to hey by the way i think that firefighters are very cool and they are like so awesome especially the skinny ones

[alexdelsol94]

hey Alex, my name is also Alex. aint that funny. i would like some information to your post also cause i had a bad driving record in my younger years and also had a wreckless driving charge back when i was 19. i would like to know if this will interfear with the academy.

thanks
Alex Rodriguez.

[rpferry]

hey alex it is brandon and i want to be a firefighter to hey by the way i think that firefighters are very cool and they are like so awesome especially the skinny ones

So when you're sitting by yourself in your mom's basement reading these forums and writing these responses do you think to yourself, "I wish I could be a real firefighter but all I can do is sit here listing to mom yell at dad." Or is it more along the lines of, " I'm a total loser and have nothing to do with my time but get on these forum pages and rag on real firefighters." Although this is rhetorical question, I'm sure you will have some gem of answer for me.

-Alex, to answer your question, I would suggest talking to a lawyer to figure out what your options are. Unfortunately, this is a glitch in your life that may haunt you for a few years to come. If you are truly serious about getting into this profession, stay clean and do what you can to show your future employers that one mistake does not make you a bad person.
Regards,
-Other Rob

[jerry4184]

Also Alex, are you willing to move. Florida and California have kind of their own thing going, where you have to attend an academy, as a civilian, in order to apply for a job.

I won't lie, in that it will probably be very hard for you to get hired, at least right now. It's been what, two years since your last infraction. That might not be enough time. Try for it anyway. If you truly have changed, someone somewhere might give you the shot. It might not be where you want right now, but it's a start. It takes a long time, usually, to get a career going somewhere in the fire service. However, you are young enough that you have time to work at it.

I also agree with the lawyer bit. Talk thinkgs over with some legal proffessional to see what exactly your record says, and what that means for you as for as things like misdemeanor and felony convictions. That can mean the difference.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Dude, you might (might) be OK. Here is the definition of Adjudication Witheld in Florida:

Adjudication Withheld - Court decision at any point after filing of a criminal complaint, to continue court jurisdiction but stop short of pronouncing judgment. This is to avoid the undesirable effects of correction.


If this is the case, this is similar to stuff we have here in NJ. If it is, you do not have a conviction. Talk to an attorney, because do not think they can ding you for anything other than a conviction.

When it comes time for application and interview, do not listen to experts whose name rhymes with SLOB. Tell the truth about the arrest and the subsequent finding when they ask you about it. Also, be sure to highlight your accomplisments since you have grown up.

Good luck.

[HolleyFF241]

Hey Alex,

I've been looking over Florida state law and it looks as if it depends on how you plead. Did you plead Guilty, Not Guilty, No Contest, etc?

[HolleyFF241]

Also, by "Nolle Prose" I assume you meant "nolle prosequi" which means in a nutshell that the prosecutor dropped the charges?

[rpferry]

Holley,
Great video by the way. It in itself should be a stickey.

[BCLepore]

Alex,
Here is an article I wrote on background investigations. One thing to remember....there is no such thing as an expunged record. Yes, we do agree that people do change. As a previous poster pointed out, time is your best friend. Do not slip up, you are on the right path.

Background Investigations

Fire departments traditionally spend thousands of dollars to advertise, recruit and hire firefighters. The departments sift through applicants using written examinations, physical agility tests and comprehensive oral interviews, but only do a cursory check on their backgrounds. They eventually produce a list of top candidates. It is now up to the organization to ferret out those candidates who were less than truthful on their application or during their interview.
Background investigations are an important component of the hiring process. They are completed by most fire departments across the country. Historically, fire departments have not placed as much emphasis on a thorough background check as their counterparts on the police department. A criminal check with the local police agency and a DMV check was the extent of what we used to look at.
The local police departments often complete today’s background checks. Many fire departments hold their firefighter candidates to the same high standards expected of a police officer. These standards include criminal history, drug usage, credit history, employment record, encounters with the law and a candidate’s overall persona.
The reasoning is that if a person has demonstrated an inability to manage his or her personal finances, is unable to get along with co-workers, or has simply made poor life decisions, these will be magnified as their responsibilities increase. If, on the other hand, a candidate has demonstrated a strong history of being able to manage his or her personal and professional life, there is no reason to expect that he or she would not continue to do so after being hired by the agency.
Gordon Graham, an attorney and well-known expert on issues pertaining to police and fire departments, believes that “The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.” He feels that if a candidate has had problems in the past, he or she will have problems in the future. His advice to police and fire chiefs across the country is, “Why take the chance and incur the liability, especially when you have so many candidates to choose from.” A thorough background check can help an agency reduce its future incidents of personnel problems and minimize the risk of negative publicity for the agency. Patterns of past performance issues and problems with co-workers are a strong indicator of future behavior and should not be overlooked.
A thorough background investigation is important because of the role of the fire department in the community. The firefighter candidate will eventually hold a position of authority and responsibility. Firefighters are welcomed into people’s homes and businesses without fear for their personal safety or their prized possessions. If the candidate is of questionable ethical or moral character, he or she may ultimately become a liability for the hiring agency. This could erode public trust and compromise the department.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce estimates that dishonesty by employees costs a business 1 – 2% of its gross sales. Surveys reveal that 33% of employees admit to stealing product or money from their jobs in the last three years. It is estimated that 30% of businesses fail because of employee theft. Statistics also reveal that roughly 40% of applicants have false information on their applications.
Negligent hiring litigation is on the rise. Employers lose 72% of all negligent hiring suits, with the average award to the plaintiff exceeding one million dollars. Most of these are due to the employer failing to take the proper steps to avoid hiring an unfit employee. Courts have ruled that an employer has a general duty to check criminal records for employees who will interface with the public.
Once a candidate has been selected to move on in the hiring process, he or she is assigned a background investigator. Before meeting the background investigator, the candidate is given a background packet. These vary slightly from agency to agency, and are often 25 – 30 pages long. A candidate is usually given 14 – 21 days to complete the packet prior to the first meeting with the investigator. Candidates are advised to photocopy the packet and fill out the copy in pencil. Once the rough draft is complete, the original is completed in pen or, even better, typed.
Neatness is a characteristic that is important to a background investigator. If he or she is unable to decipher an applicant’s chicken scratch, it makes a poor first impression. A typed background packet, on the other hand, gives the impression of being thorough and complete.
The background packet will seek information relating to all jobs held (including names of supervisors and dates employed), military record including DD214, sealed high school and college transcripts, and a thorough questionnaire regarding drug and criminal history. Applicants will be expected to complete a section that outlines any and all encounters with illegal drugs, including persons involved, dates and times, as well as the number of times he or she has experimented with each substance.
Any omission of information is considered to be covering up and will be viewed as deceitful, which is grounds for automatic disqualification. If a candidate legitimately forgets information, it can certainly cost him or her a job. To avoid making these costly mistakes, a candidate should keep a log of information that would be helpful to a background investigator, including names and addresses of landlords, employers, friends and co-workers. Any blanks left in the packet raises the question of whether the applicant is attempting to cover something up.
Once the applicant has completed the background packet, he or she will be scheduled to meet with the assigned investigator. The investigator may be a firefighter on the department, a police officer for the city or county, or a private contractor. Whoever it is, the applicant’s future employment relies on successfully completing the process.
The investigator will take several photos of the candidate that will be shown to friends, neighbors and co-workers during the investigation. The applicant will be asked for a list of friends and close associates, including their names, addresses and phone numbers. The prospective firefighter must sign a stack of release waivers that will be used by the investigator for each person contacted.
The investigator will review the background packet with the applicant, seeking to identify any discrepancies and delve deeper into them. This is the applicant’s opportunity to explain his or her side of what transpired. It is akin to going to confession. After this stage, anything uncovered by the investigator that was not previously disclosed is considered to be intentionally “forgotten” and could be used as a foundation for dismissal from the hiring process. Once an investigator gets a feel about a candidate from the interview, he or she will begin some cursory checks of driving and criminal records, as well as a credit check.
Driving records are important, since having a current driver’s license is required for most firefighter positions. A candidate who has a history of speeding or ignoring traffic laws may be disqualified since we operate emergency vehicles. Driving lights and siren through the city is a huge liability for the agency. Imagine if a firefighter was driving lights and siren at an excessive rate of speed and plowed into a bus bench full of school children. The subsequent investigation revealed that the firefighter had a series of speeding and moving violations. The agency would probably lose any lawsuit. Even if it didn’t, it would certainly be a black eye for the department.
Numerous parking tickets make a statement of how a candidate reacts to authority. If a candidate has a series of infractions (paid or not), it could indicate that he or she feels that it is unnecessary to abide by society’s rules.
I was asked in a seminar recently if a candidate would be held liable for the parking tickets he was given while driving the company delivery vehicle. He tried to reason that they weren’t his fault because, as a delivery driver, his boss gave him permission to park in the red zone. I asked him who gave his boss the authority to tell him it was OK to ignore the law. He continued to tell me that since his boss told him it was OK, and the company paid for the tickets, he felt he was off the hook. I told him that even if he were off the hook for the parking tickets, he would probably fail the background because he has a pattern of exercising poor judgment.
Another candidate asked if it would look badly if he was always the one to bail his friends out of jail. He rationalized that it showed he was a loyal and dedicated friend. He stated that he knew the fire service valued strong friendships and looking out for each other. I assured him that he was correct on both counts. We do value strong friendships, and we certainly take care of each other. I would question why he is associating with people who are constantly being thrown in jail. I reminded him of the old saying, “Birds of a feather flock together.” In other words, if your friends and associates are guilty, then so too are you. Whether this is the case or not is irrelevant; you define yourself by the company you keep.
Obviously, criminal records are important to the hiring agency. Firefighters routinely find themselves unsupervised in people’s homes and businesses. Imagine for a moment the headlines in the local newspaper: “Firefighter arrested for stealing from elderly lady’s bedroom while she was having a heart attack.” Of course, this would be picked up by the national media and would be a black eye for all firefighters.
Credit history is also important, as it too makes a statement of how an individual handles responsibilities. If a person is not able to live within his or her means, this person is a potential liability to the agency. A blemished credit history may indicate an inability to handle responsibility.
Bankruptcy is a big red flag to an agency. Simply because a credit card company considers an individual untouchable and relieved of financial responsibility once he or she declares bankruptcy, fire departments do not view this in the same way. In reality, although an individual has declared financial bankruptcy, he or she is morally obligated to repay the money that was borrowed. In the eyes of the law the obligation has been “forgotten,” but somebody is still out money. Is it an automatic disqualification? No, not if there has been progress made toward repaying the debt after bankruptcy was declared. According to a former background investigator for LAPD, “If an individual is making an honest effort to repay the money, we can look past a bankruptcy. We cannot overlook someone who does not attempt to right known wrongs.”
Candidates often wonder if they should report things that occurred when they were younger. They feel that if a record was sealed, they are not accountable for anything until they reached 18 years of age. Nothing is further from the truth. Remember the forms you signed when you sat down with the background investigator? These give permission to look into every aspect of your life. There is no such thing as a sealed record to a background investigator. Even if there were, whatever a candidate did to get a police record sealed would be cause for alarm and would raise the issue of liability for the agency. For the record, there is no such thing as a sealed file, regardless of what your attorney tells you.
Many people believe that they can give the background investigator only the names of their responsible friends, the ones who will say positive things about them. They will make sure to brief their friends on what to say and what not to say. In effect, they will coach them on how to answer the questions. Certainly, the investigator will interview the people listed by the candidate, but they will also ask the individual for the name of 5 friends. They will interview the five new people, and when completed, will ask for 5 more friends, and so on. It doesn’t take long for a trained investigator to get to someone who has not been coached.
The investigator will knock on the door of your neighbors and show them a Polaroid picture (the same one taken on the day of your initial background interview). If your neighbor tells the investigator that it looks like you, but the nose ring and bandana that you always wear are missing, the cat is out of the bag. In other words, the investigator has learned a lot about you. Will this disqualify you? Probably not, but it now gives the investigator cause to look deeper into your profile.
This scenario is the number one reason that when I speak to a group of fire science students, I encourage them to look the part. You don’t see many firefighters with nose rings and bandanas. The students constantly assure me that when they start testing, they will shave off the goatee and get a haircut. It is important to note that we are not looking to hire the person who can do a complete makeover in 30 days or less. If you changed that quickly to get the job, it stands to reason that you will change back after you get it. We are looking to hire people who authentically live their lives in a positive fashion.
Are there automatic disqualifications for the background process? Yes and no. What does this mean? It depends on the agency and on the feelings of the fire chief. Some fire chiefs don’t care what you have done (within reason), but will automatically disqualify a candidate who is not completely honest during the process, while others have certain actions that are immediate cause for dismissal.
Some common causes for automatic disqualification include the following: any injectible drug use (i.e. any controlled substance or steroid put into the body via a needle); any selling, intent to sell or transporting of narcotics; hallucinogens such as LSD and acid; multiple uses of marijuana that is considered more than experimental; any type of assault or domestic battery; stealing and arson.
Of course, these are generic, but most agencies will have a policy dealing with any of the above cases. For some it may be an automatic disqualification, while other agencies may be more lenient and receptive to a reasonable explanation.
If a candidate has a blemish on his or her record that is not considered an automatic disqualification, the investigator will look further into the background. The intent is to determine if the infraction is a one-time incident or a pattern of poor choices. Oftentimes a driving under the influence arrest was the proverbial accident waiting to happen. In other words, a candidate tells the investigator that after the annual company picnic, he or she had too much to drink. The designated driver was nowhere to be found, and the candidate had to get home to feed his or her cats. It was a matter of life and death. The candidate got behind the wheel and drove when he or she shouldn’t have. As luck would have it, the candidate rear ended a police car and was arrested for driving under the influence. It was just an isolated incident that could have happened to anybody, right?
This would naturally trigger the investigator to look further into the candidate’s alcohol consumption. In fact, one of the questions is, “How often do you drink?” Nobody wants to look like an alcoholic, so they grossly underestimate the number of times alcohol is consumed each week. This is easily uncovered by interviewing your friends, who vouch for the fact that you are able to hold your liquor.
When it is revealed that you play softball in a beer league every Tuesday night with the guys from the shop, the investigator will easily identify that you drink every Tuesday night. Of course, the next question will be, “How does the candidate get to and from the game?” Your helpful friend raves about the pickup truck that you completely restored and drive to each and every game. The connection is now made complete that after drinking during the weekly softball game, the candidate hops into his restored pickup and drives home. Now, the driving under the influence conviction is no longer an isolated event, but rather part of a pattern of poor choices that finally caught up with a careless individual.
If, on the other hand, it does appear to be an isolated event the investigator will want to know what have you learned from the event. A candidate who was arrested for driving under the influence four years ago, has since quit drinking and is now a designated driver on the major holidays and a spokesperson for Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), will certainly be considered above the previous candidate. In this scenario, it’s not the mistake that draws the attention, it’s the recovery.
A person who has smoked marijuana is usually not eliminated unless it was done in recent history. Some departments will eliminate a candidate if it was done after the candidate decided he or she wanted to become a firefighter. Again, an example of poor decision making. In today’s day and age, it is understood that most people will at least try marijuana. In fact, a recent news study revealed that 66% of high school seniors have at least tried it. Unfortunately, it seems to be on the rise. If smoking marijuana were an automatic disqualification, the fire and police agencies across the country would not be able to hire most new employees. The applicant pool would simply be too small.
The background investigation is the time to be accountable for all of your life’s actions. Most people have some past indiscretions that, if given the choice, they would change. That is what we call life experience. If the individual is honest and forthcoming with information and has not made any life altering decisions, as mentioned above, he or she should have no problem passing a comprehensive background check. It is important to note that if a candidate believes he or she may have difficulty with a background investigation he or she probably will.
My advice is to be honest and forthright with information. Everyone makes mistakes. If a candidate is caught in a lie, he or she is automatically eliminated from the process, even if the issue was not a big infraction. The fact that the candidate lied says a lot about his or her character.
Once a candidate fails a background investigation, the next agency has a right to know about it. In other words, when a candidate goes through a background investigation for a different agency, they have a right to know why you failed. If a candidate failed a background for lying, chances are they will not make it through the next process.
Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief
www.aspiringfirefighters.com

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

When it is revealed that you play softball in a beer league every Tuesday night with the guys from the shop, the investigator will easily identify that you drink every Tuesday night. Of course, the next question will be, “How does the candidate get to and from the game?” Your helpful friend raves about the pickup truck that you completely restored and drive to each and every game. The connection is now made complete that after drinking during the weekly softball game, the candidate hops into his restored pickup and drives home. Now, the driving under the influence conviction is no longer an isolated event, but rather part of a pattern of poor choices that finally caught up with a careless individual.


I worked with a guy whose son was interviewing for a police job. He knew all the guys, hung out with them and played softball on the PD team.

He is asked a question: Do you drink alcohol? He answers NO.

The guys on the interview panel also play on the team. They think he is kidding and ask him again to give him the opportunity to answer correctly that, yes, he does on a social basis drink alcohol (as witnessed previously by every member of the team).

He refuses to change the answer. They refue to give him a job.

Always tell the truth.

[HolleyFF241]

I worked with a guy whose son was interviewing for a police job. He knew all the guys, hung out with them and played softball on the PD team.

He is asked a question: Do you drink alcohol? He answers NO.

The guys on the interview panel also play on the team. They think he is kidding and ask him again to give him the opportunity to answer correctly that, yes, he does on a social basis drink alcohol (as witnessed previously by every member of the team).

He refuses to change the answer. They refue to give him a job.

Always tell the truth.


Sounds like a person of questionable intelligence, in addition to questionable integrity. Probably a smart move not to hire the guy...

[CaptBob]

For some they are clouded and domed before they ever take their first step because of something in their past, job history, criminal record, credit, driving record or domestic violence. They still believe though that they have a shot.

So, like you they pack on all kinds of credentials, degrees, experience, academy, paramedic, etc. thinking this will erase the problems of the past.

The application and background packet will ask you in several different ways, “Have you ever”. Computers don’t forget. If you don’t put it down they find it your immediately eliminated from the hiring process.

Those in the hiring process have heard all the stories. What are you going to say that could keep you in the hiring process since you had not one but two underage drinking citations and have 100 other candidates who don't? You probably did it a 100 times and was only caught twice. How about other drugs?


Where is can really play out is in the psych evaluation where up to 40% of candidates fail. With problems in your past the doc will ask you some difficult questions that could take the wheels off your wagon.

[HolleyFF241]

Damn Bob talk about tough love! :D

[nmfire]

Miss Cleo speaks again.

[CaptBob]

Miss Cleo speaks again.

What nmfire is referring to is this:

I would like to personally thank nmfire for his great insight on our psychic abilities and going to great lengths to put together the graphics. I liked it so much I’ve put the idea and pictures up on our web site. You can check it out here: http://www.eatstress.com/reading.htm

Thank you nmfire for directing more traffic to my web site.

“Captain Bob"

[CaptBob]

Damn Bob talk about tough love! :D

Now back to the topic at hand.

Lcommadot had the courage to post his concerns.

Too often people will not give a candidate the information they really need. There are serious land mines ahead of every candidate. Some more than others. I try to shoot straight saving them time, money, and wasted opportunites.

I get similar calls from candidates who have a clouded pass who also feel if they pack on all kinds of education, experience and becoming a medic.

The field of battle has changed. Not too long ago you could over come some of this because it couldn’t be found. Now computers don’t forget. Those in the hiring process look for patterns. There is plenty here to establish a pattern that could cause major concerns.

I’m truly saddened when I tell them what there chances are of getting hired as I did this candidate.

What do you think most say?

Well, I’m going on anyway. How many do you think get back to me that they were hired?


None!

"Captain Bob"

www.eatstress.com

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

How many do you think get back to me that they were hired?


None!


I'm certain that's because they didn't buy any of your books or CD's.

I wonder if any of the several hundred thousand people who got hired WITHOUT your help ever had a problem past and got hired. BO, I'm sure they didn't.

Your acts gettin' old here, bobby.

[CaptBob]

Your acts gettin' old here, bobby.

So is your's Georgie!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Your acts gettin' old here, bobby.

So is your's Georgie!

But I'm not selling anything and I can help people fir FREE! And my advice is just as good as yours bobbie.

[nmfire]

Pretty sure your advice is better than anything that mope spews