Looking for Leather helmet testing data

[pedalinmedic]

My department requires that any item not issued by the fire department pass through the safety committee, and be approved before it can be used by a firefighter.

I am looking for the testing data for the N5A, N6A, 1044 and the Phenix leather helmets. Specifically I am looking for the actual numbers they received in the tests (and what the test are). Thus making a case (or breaking it) for the ability to wear a leather Helmet on the job.

Currently we are issued the 1044 helmets and that will be the baseline numbers used for my "case".

Thanks in advance!

[MemphisE34a]

They either meet OSHA (New Yorker - N5A) or NFPA (Sam Houston - N6A).

Why make it more difficult than that?? Its kinda like the difference between the doctor that had straight A's and the one that had an 82 average. There isn't one, they both met the standard and are doctors. Apply the same logic to the helmets.

[edge1317]

It almost sounds as if someone is looking for an excuse to not approve some gear.

"This helmet stood up to .00001% more stress than the one you want approved, so you must wear it."

[fireman4949]

My department requires that any item not issued by the fire department pass through the safety committee, and be approved before it can be used by a firefighter.

I am looking for the testing data for the N5A, N6A, 1044 and the Phenix leather helmets. Specifically I am looking for the actual numbers they received in the tests (and what the test are). Thus making a case (or breaking it) for the ability to wear a leather Helmet on the job.

Currently we are issued the 1044 helmets and that will be the baseline numbers used for my "case".

Thanks in advance!


Good luck! :rolleyes:

[ftfdverbenec770]

yea like the edge said, sounds like someone is wanting you to fail on this one. If OSHA/NFPA isnt good enough for them, looks like no leather for you pal. sorry. :(

[pedalinmedic]

Thanks guys, your a REAL help!

Im not nieve, I am awear of osha and nfpa. Fact is that a third party conducts the test on protective wear. I want that data.

"Why make it more difficult than that?? Its kinda like the difference between the doctor that had straight A's and the one that had an 82 average. There isn't one, they both met the standard and are doctors. Apply the same logic to the helmets".
- Because I don’t need a finger up my butt, I need to go to battle prepared. I want concrete data that mutts/administrator, and any general nay sayers cannot debate. Basically I want to avoid napoleon style warfare and take a more "special ops" approach (since you like pointless analogies).

I don’t mean to be an ass...I just looking for concrete data, that’s all.

and edge you are exactly right... I just dont want them to have a "valid" reason.

[jonnyirons2]

Looks like that 1044 is going to be your lid for a long time. And you should tell the Chief to take off his Hillary '08 sticker.

Man do I hate liberals!

[MassFireGuy]

Looks like that 1044 is going to be your lid for a long time. And you should tell the Chief to take off his Hillary '08 sticker.

Man do I hate liberals!


AHAHAHAHA! That's the best. Maybe he cries on T.V. too.

[MemphisE34a]

Thanks guys, your a REAL help!

Im not nieve, I am awear of osha and nfpa. Fact is that a third party conducts the test on protective wear. I want that data.

"Why make it more difficult than that?? Its kinda like the difference between the doctor that had straight A's and the one that had an 82 average. There isn't one, they both met the standard and are doctors. Apply the same logic to the helmets".
- Because I don’t need a finger up my butt, I need to go to battle prepared. I want concrete data that mutts/administrator, and any general nay sayers cannot debate. Basically I want to avoid napoleon style warfare and take a more "special ops" approach (since you like pointless analogies).

I don’t mean to be an ass...I just looking for concrete data, that’s all.

and edge you are exactly right... I just dont want them to have a "valid" reason.
Go to battle prepared?? There is no battle. They will either accept the fact that it meets the standards or they won't.

You have a finger up your butt, your own. You stated above you know how to find the data.

You don't mean to be an ass? Me either, I hope you like the feel of your 1044. I just noticed the medic part. Do you even need to worry about your lid in the compartment on the AMBULANCE??:rolleyes:

[pedalinmedic]

whats in a name? i havent been on the ambulance in over 6 years...Once upon a time i was on an medic and i was a competitive cyclist (hince the name). Didnt know then that my past education and experiences would make me an inferior firefighter.

I never said that i knew how to find the data. I said i know that a third party test all protective equipment, and that was the data i was looking for.

I came here looking for assistance and instead i got anything but. Im not here for negitive bantering or to fill my day. I dont have the luxary to sit and scan the forums and all day just so i can find a place to throw a quick pointless comment and add to my comment count.

Thanks for the help (oh wait??), you are truly a brother and a professional, a real fireman's fireman...someone we should all aspire to be.

[pedalinmedic]

Looks like that 1044 is going to be your lid for a long time. And you should tell the Chief to take off his Hillary '08 sticker.

Man do I hate liberals!


you and me both

[jonnyirons2]

Who's buying the helmet? If its you, I cant understand why these commie bastards would not allow you to wear something that is approved by almost every metropolitan dept in the USA.

[BKDRAFT]

Who's buying the helmet? If its you, I cant understand why these commie bastards would not allow you to wear something that is approved by almost every metropolitan dept in the USA.

Because they probably do not look nor care what any other department in the nation is doing. Some departments operate in a bubble like they are the only fire department around.

[JCA1386]

pedalin....contact phenix, they are sending me paperwork that shows the actual test...and I believe scores that the helmet received after testing. send me an e mail if youd like for more info. joeamento at yahoo dot com

[ehs7554]

Because they probably do not look nor care what any other department in the nation is doing. Some departments operate in a bubble like they are the only fire department around.

they better get out of that bubble, because everyone knows that Kentland is the only fire department. All the rest of us just wish we could be so lucky to be there......................uhh hhhhhhhh...........

[slackjawedyokel]

Wouldnt contacting the helmet maker be your best bet?

[BKDRAFT]

they better get out of that bubble,

I hear ya.

[pedalinmedic]

Wouldnt contacting the helmet maker be your best bet?


I have contacted MSA/Carins twice by email and once by phone, all of which yeilded no reply.

[slackjawedyokel]

Then have your local sales rep contact them for you. if he cant handle that then you dont want to do business with them anyway.

[donk7267]

they better get out of that bubble, because everyone knows that Kentland is the only fire department. All the rest of us just wish we could be so lucky to be there......................uhh hhhhhhhh...........

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Thats why they post those videos! Just so we can be like them!

[CaptOldTimer]

;) My department requires that any item not issued by the fire department pass through the safety committee, and be approved before it can be used by a firefighter.

I am looking for the testing data for the N5A, N6A, 1044 and the Phenix leather helmets. Specifically I am looking for the actual numbers they received in the tests (and what the test are). Thus making a case (or breaking it) for the ability to wear a leather Helmet on the job.

Currently we are issued the 1044 helmets and that will be the baseline numbers used for my "case".

Thanks in advance!



Have all the helmet makers that your department is interested in buying their product furnish your department with all test data. Period! It is up to them to provide this and not your department running all over seeking test data!!

Those who don’t or won’t drop them off your purchasing list.

By the way, buy Cairns and forget all the others!! Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.


Hey have them provide you with a helmet to "test" take it up your drill tower and drop it over the side. If it survives, buy it!!!



:) :D ;)

[pedalinmedic]

the department is not buying anything... i have an N6a that i want to wear... i have to show that the n6a is as good as or better than the 1044... lables mean nothing i have to provide concrete data that proves its worthiness.

[fireman4949]

the department is not buying anything... i have an N6a that i want to wear... i have to show that the n6a is as good as or better than the 1044... lables mean nothing i have to provide concrete data that proves its worthiness.

If the label means nothing, why would any other type of documentation have any greater value? :confused:

Put each helmet on the chief's head and hit it with a sledge hammer. Then ask him which one he thinks is better! :rolleyes:

[pedalinmedic]

Once again:

"My department requires that any item not issued by the fire department pass through the safety committee, and be approved before it can be used by a firefighter.

I am looking for the testing data for the N5A, N6A, 1044 and the Phenix leather helmets. Specifically I am looking for the actual numbers they received in the tests (and what the test are). Thus making a case (or breaking it) for the ability to wear a leather Helmet on the job.

Currently we are issued the 1044 helmets and that will be the baseline numbers used for my "case".

Thanks in advance!"

--I don’t have to prove anything to the chief, it’s the safety committee... and while smacking around the brass with a sledge sounds like a fun idea, it won’t do much for my career.

Furthermore, the osha/NFPA label means nothing to the safety committee, I have to PROVE that the helmet I wish to wear meets or exceeds what we are currently issued...It’s that simple... and the only way to do that is with real, concrete data... This "data" isn’t readily available by my own investigation, and since not a single manufacture has returned my inquiries I was hoping someone here would be able to help.

[jonnyirons2]

When I was at the cairns factory in Jersey back 5 years ago they did testing on the helmets themsleves. They had a machine and an engineer on staff that tested random samples. Call MSA and get the number to the plant in jersey.

[fireman4949]

Once again:

"My department requires that any item not issued by the fire department pass through the safety committee, and be approved before it can be used by a firefighter.

I am looking for the testing data for the N5A, N6A, 1044 and the Phenix leather helmets. Specifically I am looking for the actual numbers they received in the tests (and what the test are). Thus making a case (or breaking it) for the ability to wear a leather Helmet on the job.

Currently we are issued the 1044 helmets and that will be the baseline numbers used for my "case".

Thanks in advance!"

--I don’t have to prove anything to the chief, it’s the safety committee... and while smacking around the brass with a sledge sounds like a fun idea, it won’t do much for my career.

Furthermore, the osha/NFPA label means nothing to the safety committee, I have to PROVE that the helmet I wish to wear meets or exceeds what we are currently issued...It’s that simple... and the only way to do that is with real, concrete data... This "data" isn’t readily available by my own investigation, and since not a single manufacture has returned my inquiries I was hoping someone here would be able to help.

Here's a few things I can see...

1. Your Chief needs to review his Safety Committee's actions and motives.

2. Your Safety Committee is being absolutely, positively asinine! Do they require such information on everything your department uses? All of your PPE? Tools? Medical equipment? Apparatus? Station wear?
What about your current helmets? Was that information gathered and reviewed by the committee prior to allowing them to be put into service? If so...WHY? :rolleyes: If not...Then WHY NOT? :rolleyes:

This is nothing more than your "Safety Committee" jerkin' you around!
Who on that committee is qualified to interpret the testing data and decide what testing results are acceptable, and what are not? Why do they feel that OSHA and NFPA compliance are not good enough for them? :rolleyes:

This is ludicrous!

[MemphisE34a]

Furthermore, the osha/NFPA label means nothing to the safety committee, I have to PROVE that the helmet I wish to wear meets or exceeds what we are currently issued...It’s that simple... and the only way to do that is with real, concrete data... This "data" isn’t readily available by my own investigation, and since not a single manufacture has returned my inquiries I was hoping someone here would be able to help.
Pal,

I know I was busting your balls earlier in the post, but 4949 is right - your Safety Committee is a joke. The entire purpose of the NFPA sticker is to PROVE that the products meets the safety and testing requirements as mandated by the NFPA at the date of manufacture. It is the same reason that DOT approved motorcycle helmets come with a DOT sticker.

You have answered why no one on here can help with what you want:
This "data" isn’t readily available....
Additionally, I doubt that very many other firefighters are required to jump through hoops to prove something is NFPA approved.

[pedalinmedic]

Pal,

I know I was busting your balls earlier in the post, but 4949 is right - your Safety Committee is a joke. The entire purpose of the NFPA sticker is to PROVE that the products meets the safety and testing requirements as mandated by the NFPA at the date of manufacture. It is the same reason that DOT approved motorcycle helmets come with a DOT sticker.

You have answered why no one on here can help with what you want:

Additionally, I doubt that very many other firefighters are required to jump through hoops to prove something is NFPA approved.

your not telling me anything i dont know... yes the safety committee IS a joke, but it is a joke that i must deal with.

Re: "You have answered why no one on here can help with what you want: 'This "data" isn’t readily available....' "... dont take my words out of context... my statement was that the date was not available by my own investigation. that doesnt mean that someone else hasnt come across the data. after all it has to exist.

Re: "Additionally, I doubt that very many other firefighters are required to jump through hoops to prove something is NFPA approved". I thought I already made this clear but no one seems to understand... I dont have to prove that the helmet is OSHA, NFPA, or even GOOD OL BOY approved... I have to show that it meets or exceeds (meets or out performs) our issued helmet (the 1044).

So you can bash my department, our policies, or even ours chiefs (as earlier stated) but it is what it is and it isnt going to change. This is the only "loop hole" that i have to be able to wear my n6a. Is it a pain in the ass, undoubtly so. But it is one that i am willing to undertake.

[fireman4949]

your not telling me anything i dont know... yes the safety committee IS a joke, but it is a joke that i must deal with.

Re: "You have answered why no one on here can help with what you want: 'This "data" isn’t readily available....' "... dont take my words out of context... my statement was that the date was not available by my own investigation. that doesnt mean that someone else hasnt come across the data. after all it has to exist.

Re: "Additionally, I doubt that very many other firefighters are required to jump through hoops to prove something is NFPA approved". I thought I already made this clear but no one seems to understand... I dont have to prove that the helmet is OSHA, NFPA, or even GOOD OL BOY approved... I have to show that it meets or exceeds (meets or out performs) our issued helmet (the 1044).

So you can bash my department, our policies, or even ours chiefs (as earlier stated) but it is what it is and it isnt going to change. This is the only "loop hole" that i have to be able to wear my n6a. Is it a pain in the ass, undoubtly so. But it is one that i am willing to undertake.

While I can admire your determination, you seem to have the attitude that nothing can be changed...I have to disagree.
Change can often be a slow, arduous process, often met with resistance, but I believe that you should also put whatever energy you can in getting your committee's policies changed.

I personally started and led the fight for a long time to get my dept to allow us to wear traditional helmets, but about 12 or 13 years ago, we were finally granted the privilege of wearing our own lids. Persistence pays off.

Policies can be changed. Even within a rigid, seemingly immovable administration. ;)

[MemphisE34a]

I have to show that it meets or exceeds (meets or out performs) our issued helmet (the 1044).

So you can bash my department, our policies, or even ours chiefs (as earlier stated) but it is what it is and it isnt going to change. This is the only "loop hole" that i have to be able to wear my n6a. Is it a pain in the ass, undoubtly so. But it is one that i am willing to undertake.
I am not bashing you or your department, I don't even know what department you are with. I am saying that your safety committee is the one that doesn't understand. Having an NFPA sticker is proof that your helmet meets the same requirements as the issued 1044. They are both tested to the SAME standard. There is not an NFPA standard for 1044 firefighting helmets and another for N6A's. They are both tested to the SAME, SINGLE standard for all firefighting helmets.

If your committee can't understand that, they certainly won't understand any supporting documentation. Good luck. As stated before, I hope you find a way.

[MassFireGuy]

I am a little confused. Exactly where did the committee get the information for the 1044? They are both made by Cairns. Why not turn to the same place. If you really want the info, keep bugging Cairns. If you don't want it that bad, well then, its on you. I think the answer is simple, brother.

[BBradley15]

i'm kinda in the same boat..dept. issues 1010's with the defender shield retrofit...well mine is from teh first batch where they weren't NFPA approved yet, so no sticker in it, but i can't get clearance to wear my NFPA approved new yorker (with a sticker)..and without being a dick about it and presenting it to my Cheif again, it's just not in the cards....unless anyone else has a good idea haha

[LPFD53]

Wouldn't the "committee" then be required to tell you whether it's acceptable or not? Why do you have to tell them? Explain to them that both helmets exceed OSHA and NFPA requirements and based on the destructive tests that the NFPA uses to determine their requirements, you're NFPA-compliant Houston meets them... look up some info on the NFPA, they use some sort of contraption to impact the helmet and measure the depth of the impact at a certain psi and weight or something along those lines...

[pedalinmedic]

Wouldn't the "committee" then be required to tell you whether it's acceptable or not? Why do you have to tell them?

Yes committee has to tell me yea or nea. As a matter of fact they have told me its not acceptable unless I provide the TEST DATA that proves that it is BETTER than the 1044. Its NOT a matter of being NFPA or OSHA compliant but it HAS to PERFORM BETTER in ALL test categories.

Yes, I know this is B.S.

[fireman4949]

Yes committee has to tell me yea or nea. As a matter of fact they have told me its not acceptable unless I provide the TEST DATA that proves that it is BETTER than the 1044. Its NOT a matter of being NFPA or OSHA compliant but it HAS to PERFORM BETTER in ALL test categories.

Yes, I know this is B.S.


I truly do wish you the best of luck, but I honestly believe your just being jerked around by a couple of idiots that will do whatever they can to make sure you don't ever get to wear cow.

Maybe they're just too damn cheap to buy their own, so they're making it impossible for any one else to wear one either.