Being a volunteer can help or destroy you!

[CaptBob]

Candidates want the opportunity to be a volunteer as a way of showing interest, gain hands on experience, have something to put on their resume and can say in their oral they have been a volunteer. This can be good for younger candidates who can't take a test yet. Too often they don’t know the culture, politics and etiquette.

You will make an impression becoming a volunteer. Good or bad. Because of the politics something could happen that could ruin any chances you will ever have as a firefighter. And the big problem is you will never know what or who badmouthed you.

Even if you're testing else where, if you listed you are or were a volunteer the background investigator is going to be checking out your history with the volunteer department. They could contact a person that will bad mouth you that will keep you from being considered. Many volunteers, officers and chiefs of departments have tanked a whole a lot of wanna be's firefighters just because they played favorites, were jealous of their career path, couldn't make the cut trying to get a paid position themselves, lied to these candidates faces and they never knew what happened.

I’ve seen this happen far too much. Candidates wait years trying to become a paid member of their volunteer department or candidates like yourself want to be a volunteer as a stepping stone to a full time position and they have been marked because of some incident they don’t even know about that will keep them badge less.

Here’s an example:

I have recently run into a small bump in the road regarding the written application. I thought I would e-mail you to see how you feel I should handle the situation.

I am going to be honest with you. About 2 months ago I received a written letter from the volunteer FD I have been part of for about 6 years telling me I was terminated. I had 2 weeks to appeal the termination. I did so by the date requested and now over a month and a half later I still have not heard a word about having an appeal hearing with the department to find out specifics of what there reasoning were. I also was terminated along with 2 other members of the department. Up until my termination I was one of the top 5 most active guys among a group of over 50 active members. Basically when I wasn't at work I was there drilling, taking classes, going on runs, etc. I have had no disciplinary action taken against me prior to this other than supposedly breaking a "house rule" at one time which since was repeated by multiple members with no disciplinary action ever taken against them.

My letter of termination stated that I was disrespectful to an officer at one point and it affected morale. Plain and simple that’s all it states. The other 2 guys that got terminated along with me also have letters that read identical to mine. I have never had any disciplinary action taken against me regarding disrespect towards line officers or members so this caught me as a huge surprise. I truly feel that the description of "disrespect of officers" is actually a difference in opinions. Since I have been unable to have an appeal meeting with this department I do not know any specifics so I don't know what to do.

Basically I am curious how you feel I should handle this on my applications. I have always listed my volunteer experiences as part of my employment history as requested on most applications. I have always taken a great deal of pride in my volunteer history as a lot of my life was dedicated to volunteering. I am not sure how I would go about explaining this to a review panel or in an interview as I am not even sure of the specifics as the letter of termination was very generalized.

Also, I currently have 3 jobs. Full-time EMT/Firefighter, part-time Airport FF/EMT and part-time EMT. At my places of employment, I have NO issues EVER. I have a great work history and feel very comfortable saying that. I have been employed by my full-time employer for almost 5 years now and have had a few "promotions" there as well.

Captain, how should I handle this matter? If you would like to know more, please ask.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide. Jeff Bradley

Captain Bob’s Reply:

You wrote:

I truly feel that the description of "disrespect of officers" is actually a difference in opinions.

Oh, boy, sounds like the politics of small town vollys. Jealousy with the full time firefighter and your experience? What were you thinking arguing your opinion? There is no winning. Only degrees of losing. Is this how you're going to be when you get on a new department? This could create some big problems when someone does a background. These guys will trash you.

If you don't put it on your application or background file and they find it you could be immediately eliminated from the process.

This is something that you don't bring up during an oral board unless they do. More here: http://www.eatstress.com/fired.htm

So how do you present this situation? Blaming those officers could raise red flags. It will help that you didn't realize there was a problem along with the others that were let go. Nothing had ever been brought to your attention and nothing has ever happened like this with your other jobs or department.

Jeff: Yes, unfortunately the politics of the small town volly house did get involved. As far as jealousy goes, I would hate to think that was the case here as I am never one to think people are jealous of what I have worked very hard for. As far as arguing, I wish I would have thought about it more because you are so right, there are only degrees of losing.

As far as how I will be on a new department, ABSOLUTELY NOT. As I previously mentioned, at my current full-time and part-time positions I have no problems what so ever with anyone. At my full-time job I have actually had multiple promotions and at 21 was promoted to a "team leader" position. I have been at my full time job for almost 5 years now and get along well with everyone.

I definitely don't plan on not putting this on my application. I will do so because I have always read the part about immediate termination from the process on the applications. I do not plan to sit around and push blame at anyone. This happened almost two months ago now and I haven't said a bad thing about anyone from this FD and don't plan on starting. I honestly am not lying when I say I didn't know this was coming, nor did the other 2 guys. Yeah there were times where some of us would have our differences, but never to the point where any disciplinary action was taken. You can't correct a problem you really aren't aware of.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I have read over the links you have sent. If you feel there is anything else that will be of assistance in this process I would love to hear back from you.

Jeff: Yeah there were times where some of us would have our differences, but never to the point where any disciplinary action was taken.

CB: You probably know now this is what happened. This should be a heads up for the future.

Jeff: You can't correct a problem you really aren't aware of.

CB: True. But they don't always give you that advantage.

Jeff: Yep, this is the part I am fearing the most. I truly hope I still have a shot at my career dreams but I just don't know anymore. I did recieve a letter from this FD Friday that my appeal hearing will be the 2nd week of December. I do have about a half dozen active guys from this department going with me to my appeal to help support the cause. There are guys that are still very upset about the way this has all happened and they still don't feel that its fair. I have my fingers crossed there is still some hope with the appeal, so I guess now I have to wait and see what comes of it. I will definitely keep you posted as to the happenings as you have been a HUGE help through all of this so far.

I guess I may never get my dream job now due to this event in my life, but I do still appreciate all your help. Thanks!

CB: Talk is cheap. See who really shows up. Be a good listener.

Jeff: Actually 5 or the 6 showed up and the good news they let me resign.

CB: Well, if a BI comes around these guys still might bad mouth you.

[the1141man]

Three things, "Captain":

1) Did you get this guy's permission to post his emails (including his full name, no less) in these forums?

2) Generally speaking, volunteer positions, including Fire ones, are not considered "employment" (unless there is an agreement or contract in place in which the volunteers are considered or named as "employees" of a specific agency or municipality). Hence, one could not be "dinged" for omitting a volly Fire position any more than one can be "dinged" for omitting that he was an Assistant Scoutmaster of a BSA troop. Unless the application specifically instructs the applicant to include "related volunteer activities" as "employment" (as the Feds do), I would not consider a volunteer position, whether PD, FD, BSA, or the local soup kitchen, as "employment", and therefore optional to list... unless, like I said, there's an agreement in place where the volunteer is considered an "unpaid employee" of an agency or municipality.
Of course, it is always better to just be straightforward and upfront, because it looks far better for an applicant to tell a potential employer about an issue up front, rather than them finding out about it much later...gives the impression of "hiding something". ;)

3) Assuming he does include the information on his application, when an investigator calls his old VFD and negative comments are made, should a decision not to hire be based solely or in large part upon the negative comments made, the VFD and individuals who made those comments are wide open for a huge crate of civil court whoop姧 for libel/slander, particularly if there is no documented evidence to substantiate the negative comments.
Many smart employers these days limit their liability exposure when someone calls for a reference/background investigation by confirming that the person was employed there, the time frame in which they were employed, and the positions they held. "Name, rank, serial number," so to speak--keeps (smart) people out of harm's way from a well-aimed civil lawsuit.
Granted, you sign a waiver saying that you won't sue the employing/investigating agencies should they make a negative decision based upon factors discovered during the BG process. That does not however, extend civil liability protection or immunity to parties providing incorrect or deliberately false information.

[CaptBob]

Names are changed to protect the innocent---Dragnet TV Series 1950’s

Too often I receive calls from candidates who ask, “What do I do now” after they have spend time, money, education and put their lives on hold for years only to be taken out at one of the hiring stations.

Yes, I’m fully aware of the liability an employer has today on releasing information on previous employees. This doesn’t prevent the BI from just showing up at the firehouse and asking a few questions and talking to friends, neighbors and relatives. You would be shocked and amazed what people will reveal. Oh, and don’t forget they will want to talk to all the X’s. One common question a BI will ask is there anyone else I should be talking too? Happens all the time.

The application and background packet will ask you in several different ways, “Have you ever”. Computers don’t forget. If you don’t put it down they find it your immediately eliminated from the hiring process.

Where is can really play out is in the psych evaluation where up to 40% of candidates fail. With problems in your past the doc will ask you some difficult questions that could take the wheels off your wagon.

Too many candidates walk in flat-footed once they’re given a conditional job offer and are eliminated in the psych, poly and medical. These are unchartered waters where you need to be prepared in advance before you show up. These are experts who are being paid to take you out.

[Geinandputitout]

Three things, "Captain":

1) Did you get this guy's permission to post his emails (including his full name, no less) in these forums?

2) Generally speaking, volunteer positions, including Fire ones, are not considered "employment" (unless there is an agreement or contract in place in which the volunteers are considered or named as "employees" of a specific agency or municipality). Hence, one could not be "dinged" for omitting a volly Fire position any more than one can be "dinged" for omitting that he was an Assistant Scoutmaster of a BSA troop. Unless the application specifically instructs the applicant to include "related volunteer activities" as "employment" (as the Feds do), I would not consider a volunteer position, whether PD, FD, BSA, or the local soup kitchen, as "employment", and therefore optional to list... unless, like I said, there's an agreement in place where the volunteer is considered an "unpaid employee" of an agency or municipality.
Of course, it is always better to just be straightforward and upfront, because it looks far better for an applicant to tell a potential employer about an issue up front, rather than them finding out about it much later...gives the impression of "hiding something". ;)

3) Assuming he does include the information on his application, when an investigator calls his old VFD and negative comments are made, should a decision not to hire be based solely or in large part upon the negative comments made, the VFD and individuals who made those comments are wide open for a huge crate of civil court whoop姧 for libel/slander, particularly if there is no documented evidence to substantiate the negative comments.
Many smart employers these days limit their liability exposure when someone calls for a reference/background investigation by confirming that the person was employed there, the time frame in which they were employed, and the positions they held. "Name, rank, serial number," so to speak--keeps (smart) people out of harm's way from a well-aimed civil lawsuit.
Granted, you sign a waiver saying that you won't sue the employing/investigating agencies should they make a negative decision based upon factors discovered during the BG process. That does not however, extend civil liability protection or immunity to parties providing incorrect or deliberately false information.


I am obviuosly not from the same locale, but Volunteer Firefighters have been regularly ruled as employees of whatever group they belong too. They have been ruled employees in disability hearings, discharge and disciplinary hearings, and most cities around here carry insurance on them (workmans comp at minimum). I'm not saying they are employees, but for the purposes of this discussion they are in fact employees.

[DeputyMarshal]

1) Did you get this guy's permission to post his emails (including his full name, no less) in these forums?

You don't need permission if you make things up, right? :D

[mdtaylor]

I am obviuosly not from the same locale, but Volunteer Firefighters have been regularly ruled as employees of whatever group they belong too. They have been ruled employees in disability hearings, discharge and disciplinary hearings, and most cities around here carry insurance on them (workmans comp at minimum). I'm not saying they are employees, but for the purposes of this discussion they are in fact employees.

I've always been told that the only thing you volunteer to do is sign the application. From then on you simply have a non-paying job.

[the1141man]

Yes, I’m fully aware of the liability an employer has today on releasing information on previous employees. This doesn’t prevent the BI from just showing up at the firehouse and asking a few questions and talking to friends, neighbors and relatives. You would be shocked and amazed what people will reveal. Oh, and don’t forget they will want to talk to all the X’s. One common question a BI will ask is there anyone else I should be talking too? Happens all the time.

The application and background packet will ask you in several different ways, “Have you ever”. Computers don’t forget. If you don’t put it down they find it your immediately eliminated from the hiring process.

Where is can really play out is in the psych evaluation where up to 40% of candidates fail. With problems in your past the doc will ask you some difficult questions that could take the wheels off your wagon.

Too many candidates walk in flat-footed once they’re given a conditional job offer and are eliminated in the psych, poly and medical. These are unchartered waters where you need to be prepared in advance before you show up. These are experts who are being paid to take you out.

That's true...same thing happens when someone's applying for an LE position.

Then again, a single negative comment or reference will (99% of the time) not disqualify an applicant, especially if there's any indication the person interviewed may have reason to be vindictive or a score to settle. However, a chain of negative references from unrelated sources would an entirely different story... ;)

[DonSmithnotTMD]

Then again, a single negative comment or reference will (99% of the time) not disqualify an applicant, especially if there's any indication the person interviewed may have reason to be vindictive or a score to settle.

So if a place makes me put my ex-wife on a background form, I could still be OK?

[firecrow]

You have to (unfortunately) trust the process to some extent. Those who would give you a negative, like ex-wives or neighbours you had a run in with can point to weaknesses in conflict resolution and are valid things to look at when hiring for a job like fire or LE. With fire, you live in your stationmates back pockets and the ability to get along with little friction is a characteristic departments do look for. However a good HR department will 'consider the source'. However, if your criticism comes from an officer directly in line above you who worked with you and has credibility, you're got a fight on your hands.

In that case, getting the appeal on the record is critical. Getting your perspective on the record is critical. Any department worth its weight will, if its looking that deep into it, will want both sides of the story. The fact that there are two others in your boat in the same department supports your position that you've been blindsided unfairly and if they are appealing then that will bolster your position as well.

The other possible high risk manouver is to go head on with this through negotiation. Go to the officer(s) involved in the issue and state that while you don't bear them or the department any ill will, that your good name is under attack here and it could effect your career path and that you deserve a resolution to the conflict given your record of service, and that you're not going to go quietly into the night. Don't forget, conflicts like these affect THEIR record as well. The ultimate negotiation goal is an official withdrawal of their request and striking this from your record in return for your resignation from that particular VFD on the promise of no further mention of the incident or conflict and a good reference on future BI checks with that department. This is something that may go all the way up to the Chief to get, but, if the department is looking for a clean way to solve the conflict, this may be a good solution. This way you don't have to mention the conflict to any future perspective employer and you can give whatever reason you wish for the resignation - there are many legit reasons for leaving a VFD that won't affect your credibility.

The highest risk is to go all the way through appeals and discredit your detractors. That is riskiest of all, but, consider that if you quietly walk away from this you may be allowing a negative opinion on you stand in the official record with nothing to counter it and no way to combat it in a future BI.

If you have the kind of time in that you say, seek to improve yourself, attend calls regularly, and have been an officer and have been an asset to the department, then I would say figure out if your Chief will be impartial and if he will be, ask him to mediate whatever the conflict is. If the Chief is part of it, get a lawyer and go to HR. HR will probably be even more willing to negotiate in the manner stated above just to avoid the liabilities - when they know you're not going to take being badmouthed and that you're considering legal action they will get involved and direct the town's position. A Chief may be powerful and a Chief but HR is God himself - they hold your records and respond to BIs first.

Going quietly into the night is not an option if this is your chosen career - if so, its worth fighting for tooth and nail. If it isn't, go with the flow and risk a negative BI check with this VFD - trying to hide it on an app is not an option, but if you don't fight or negotiate it you let the criticism stand unchallenged and leave nothing to a future department on which to base a judgement that in fact you may have been treated unfairly. And for heaven sakes, don't whine about it in an interview, or it will get you canned off the list instantly. You state its a disagreement amongst professionals and here are the steps that you took to resolve it once it came to your attention, but the department was intransigent in dealing with it. Don't utter the words 'politics' or 'unfair' as those imply dodging personal responsibility.

It sucks and I feel for you but there are good bad and badder ways to handle it. Hope those ideas and perspective helps. Good Luck.

[CaptBob]

In the real world it's really tough to try to establish a negotiate, lawyer up, take it to HR, try to take on the chief, and do the touchy feely thing.

Your best day is to tell the BI investigator what happend before they head out. You think the BI understands you're not the only one to have an X wife that might hammer you. That's why you're not together anymore. I know X wife's who flat out lied when the father of their children would get more money for child support if they got the job. The BI know this well.

An EMT was fired for false reasons. Although he didn't want to stir up more problems this firing could have an impact on him getting hired as a firefighter. He got a lawyer who set up a meeting with the employer. When they opened the guys employment folder there wasn't one negative thing in there or anything that pertained to why he had been falsely fire. The manager asked the guy and his attorney to leave the room so they could discuss the issue.

A few minutes later an embarrased manager called them in an announced that there had been an error. They offered him his job back with pay which he accepted and then immadiately resigned in good standing. They worked out that his record was sealed and only his start and finish date were to be released to any prospective employer.

The EMT went to work for another ambulance company that was bought out 6months later by his original company. Everything went right and he was hired as a firefighter the following year. He said that was some of the best money he spent on an attorney that knew what he was doing.

[firecrow]

In the real world it's really tough to try to establish a negotiate, lawyer up, take it to HR, try to take on the chief, and do the touchy feely thing.

Absolutely its tough. But getting f**ked over for no good reason and laying down when you want to keep doing what is the best job in the world is worth fighting for! Your story illustrates that. The lawyer is a last resort, and sometimes just the suggestion of it going legal is enough for an HR department to play ball and force those involved to be fair.

Now, if you are a died in the wool pain in the ass in the firehall and on the fireground with a long record, don't expect them to back down either. But if you've been truely wronged and painted badly by one incident which they inconsistently invoke discipline for then you have a valid case.

I wouldn't back down. Not for a second. I've worked too hard for this and want it too much to be marginalized by political bull****. I'm sure thats true for you too.

[CaptBob]

Yea, but.

Yea, you have rights. But I want you to think long and hard about ever thinking you’re in charge of the hiring process, want to negotiate and get a lawyer to try and pave the way for you. You’re not even hired yet and you’re already causing problems. It’s one thing to lawyer up against a private ambulance company. Another to try and take on a civil service agency. I’ve known many who’ve tried. Few succeed. And when you go in this direction the phone stops ringing. No one will talk to you. This is not their first rodeo. You have drawn the line and will now have to defend yourself. It could take a long time and lots of your $$$$$. Word could spread to other agencies who might be considering you in the future.

Nine candidates got together after they failed the psych test. They felt the psych doc went out of bounds asking about their sex lives with the significant others. They sued. After a few years and lots of money they dropped the suit because there was no end in sight and the legal bills just kept coming in. So they took this same agencies tests again and was called in for a psych. Who do you think the doc was? How do you think it went?

And for those who succeed what do you think is waiting for them once they enter the academy and get on the floor?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I would like to take a survey.

How many of you got your jobs w/o buying a tape, a CD, a book or a seminar?

That's what I thought.

All of you guys who are looking to get hired. SAVE YOUR MONEY.

Every once in awhile, when orders are slow, the fh.com blitz comes.

[firecrow]

CaptBob: You're changing the intent of the thread, he's not hiring a lawyer to fight for a job, he's hiring a lawyer to defend himself again unfair treatment in one circumstance with an otherwise pristine record and a long and good record of service. And in fact what he negotiating is to stop it from having a bad mark on his record and exiting without any blowback. Thats a far cry from what you just posted here and I don't think that was the original poster's intent.

[CaptBob]

CaptBob: You're changing the intent of the thread, he's not hiring a lawyer to fight for a job, he's hiring a lawyer to defend himself again unfair treatment in one circumstance with an otherwise pristine record and a long and good record of service. And in fact what he negotiating is to stop it from having a bad mark on his record and exiting without any blowback. Thats a far cry from what you just posted here and I don't think that was the original poster's intent.

Yes, I agree it should be the way you write it. I don't expect you to understand this situation if you've never been through it. I did talk to this candidate and have heard from many others who faced similar situations over the years. It gets ugly and once it goes south it's hard to resuscitate.

[firecrow]

Yes, I agree it should be the way you write it. I don't expect you to understand this situation if you've never been through it. I did talk to this candidate and have heard from many others who faced similar situations over the years. It gets ugly and once it goes south it's hard to resuscitate.

I read you.

[the1141man]

So if a place makes me put my ex-wife on a background form, I could still be OK?

Probably, yep. Unless of course you guys had the cops out at your house with numerous complaints of fights, disturbances, etc... ;)