medic or bachelors?

[tommygavin]

24 year old here. finishing emt-b next week and then ff 1&2 next semes. i have most of my gen eds and just need a few more classes for my associates degree.

what do u guys thing i should do next year? Medic or bachelors? i wanna get a full time job as soon as possible. i'd like to have a dept. pay for it as well. i live in michigan but i'm willing to travel. id actually like to go somewhere else. to be honest, i dont even want to get my medic but i know it helps with getting a fulltime gig.

oh ya and should i even bother applying for fulltime jobs when i get outa the academy? i'll have just about zero experience other than what i got in emt-b and ff1&2. cant get on volly where i live

[DrParasite]

get your paramedic cert, it will help you more than a bachelors degree, at least when trying to get hired.

[BLSboy]

Don't even think about going to Medic until you have at least 2 years as an EMT under your belt.
NOOOT a smart idea at all.

[davjohnson]

I presume Bachelor's in fire science...but is it in operations or fire protection systems???

Don't know if 2 yrs. before EMT-P is a set rule, but you should try EMT-B before you put in the time and effort to get your EMT-P.

[BLSboy]

Don't know if 2 yrs. before EMT-P is a set rule, but you should try EMT-B before you put in the time and effort to get your EMT-P.

IIRC, it used to be the rule in Jersey, along with 3 (three) letters of recomendation from ALS providers you have worked with.

Down here, you don't even have to HAVE your EMT before you start Medic, but have to have it by Cardio. :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:

[tommygavin]

a lot of people at my school go right from emt-basic to the medic course.

[jasper45]

Check with where you want to work, and what the department has in regard to paramedic.
My department could care less if you're a paramedic, and that's pretty much the case for the majority of departments in my state. Here, the BS would help you out much more.

There is no uniform set rule. To answer your question, you really need to figure out which departments or regions you will focus on for testing.

[jasper45]

get your paramedic cert, it will help you more than a bachelors degree, at least when trying to get hired.

Not completely true.

[Geinandputitout]

A couple of things:

Some people go from the EMT-B directly to EMT-P without any time on the streets. If you are focused in your studies, and observant you can be a good paramedic without being an EMT for a long time. It is not the route that I took, but it is possible to be a good paramedic with that route.

The Bachelor's / Medic thing is up to you. I got my paramedic first, got a fire job, then went to school at the University at night. It took 6.5 years, that is a long time to go to school at night.

In many areas of the mid-west getting your paramedic card first will help, on my job having a bachelor's degree and having a medic card get you the same amount of points. So here it is a wash.

I know that no one on my job has been hired since 1997 without one of the following: 2 Year Technical Degree in Fire Science, 4 Year Bachelor's Degree, NREMT-P Card, or Six Years in the military.

Good Luck

[tommygavin]

ya i'll have my associates next year. i dont mind getting everything possible. i'm just trying to be able to make a living while doing it

[Catch22]

Check with where you want to work, and what the department has in regard to paramedic.
My department could care less if you're a paramedic, and that's pretty much the case for the majority of departments in my state. Here, the BS would help you out much more.

There is no uniform set rule. To answer your question, you really need to figure out which departments or regions you will focus on for testing.

This is good advise. A lot is going to depend on where you want to work. Like Jasper said, some departments don't care about Medic, some won't hire you without it.

My department gives certain point levels for various things. A bachelors and Medic are two major point scorers.

Also, don't think you have to be an EMT for two years before you jump into medic. I don't recommend going straight from EMT into Paramedic without at least working on the box while you're in class, but I have seen people do it. What's going to make one a good medic is their knowledge and their ability to perform under pressure. Having experience is going to help, but in most places is not a requisite.

My advise, and I'm sure you're waiting for someone to say it, is to see if you can get both. I don't know of many departments who will pay for you to get your medic (where I work will, but I think it's a rarity); but at the same time, many cities/departments have tuition reimbursement programs, it's just hard to take classes when you're working full-time. Get all the info you can before you make a decision either way.

[jasper45]

I don't know of many departments who will pay for you to get your medic

Like you pointed out, this is why it's important to find out the requirements that specific departments have. My city hands out points for both AAS, and BS, but nothing for paramedic. We don't even require EMT, or any kind of certifications.
We will send you to paramedic school, after you're hired.
Paramedic is kind of a step up here, if you want it. Once hired, if you qualify and want it, the department sends you to paramedic school. That's right, becoming a paramedic becomes your full time job. You're not in the field, you report to a hospital where becoming a paramedic is your full time job. I can think of close to 20 departments in my area that are like that.

So step 1 is to find out where you want to test. Then, figure out the entrance requirements, and what points are given for education, etc... in the places you want to test.
I'm not saying that being a med is bad. Paramedic just might not help you out a whole lot, depending on where you intend to apply. School is very expensive, and takes a lot of your time. Prioritize based on the application requirements of where you would like to work, then move on from that point.

[tommygavin]

well like i said there are several places i would work and i'm not eactly DYINIG to get my medic.

i'm down to work in many places. most cities would be awsome. that or just outside the city. i dont want to work in a rural area.

any places like that hiring that dont require medic? I'd move to just about any good city for a full time job in a second.

its hard to look where u wanna work when you're willing to work a LOT of places

[BLSboy]

It would help if we knew what region/area you are from.

BTW, good BLS comes before good ALS. Build your EMS career one block at a time. Don't rush things, and learn as much as you can.
The day you think you know it all, is the day to walk away.

[ehs7554]

Don't even think about going to Medic until you have at least 2 years as an EMT under your belt.
NOOOT a smart idea at all.

Why do you say that??

[BLSboy]

Why do you say that??

I am in Medic now. I see people fresh out of EMT school, thinking they know everything, getting flattened on their clinicals, when they see that not everything is like the classroom.
Being a Medic is more responsibility, and alot more information.
Do you think you can go from FF academy right to Driver/Engineer, or Lt?
No. You have to build up. Why are BLS airways better in some cases? Why is that chest pain more then likely NOT ALS, getting street experience is THE single most valuable thing one can do in this field. See, learn, do, teach. That is what will make a great Medic.
Not some crackerjack who manages to ace tests, and gets put on his ass once he gets the card.

And if you are one of the ones how got lucky, and went right from EMT to Medic, congrats, you are a rarity.

[Geinandputitout]

I am in Medic now. I see people fresh out of EMT school, thinking they know everything, getting flattened on their clinicals, when they see that not everything is like the classroom.
Being a Medic is more responsibility, and alot more information.
Do you think you can go from FF academy right to Driver/Engineer, or Lt?
No. You have to build up. Why are BLS airways better in some cases? Why is that chest pain more then likely NOT ALS, getting street experience is THE single most valuable thing one can do in this field. See, learn, do, teach. That is what will make a great Medic.
Not some crackerjack who manages to ace tests, and gets put on his ass once he gets the card.

And if you are one of the ones how got lucky, and went right from EMT to Medic, congrats, you are a rarity.


I think the single most important thing is quality instruction. If you are learning everything on the street then you are a poor student or you attended a poor EMS program.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be a paramedic. You don't even have to be that bright. Your actions are directed in advance, and if you get nervous there are field guides, job-aids, and in some cases on-line medical control.

[BCLepore]

The Importance of Education
On the surface it may seem that education is not important for a firefighter. This is very far from the truth for several reasons. First of all, firefighters have evolved from “put the wet stuff on the red stuff,” to being in charge of major hazardous materials, weapons of mass destruction incidents, or determining paramedic level care on a gravely ill or injured patient. What do all of these incidents have in common? Each discipline requires knowledge of physics and chemistry, of course!
Secondly, firefighters are required to write a report (which is also a legal document) that summarizes every emergency response. These reports are a direct reflection of the report writer. If a report is filled with grammatical and punctuation errors, the credibility of the writer is brought into question. Firefighters are often asked to testify in a court of law as to what occurred. A firefighter who authors a report riddled with errors will certainly lose credibility with the audience.
Firefighters negotiate their salaries with the city, county or board. The more educated the firefighters are in the political process, the better they will fare at the bargaining table. This ultimately translates into better wages, benefits and working conditions.
Is a Bachelor’s Degree required prior to getting hired? The answer is no, or at least not in most places. Most departments require a high school diploma or a GED certificate. Why is there such a wide range of education levels for entry-level firefighters? It’s really quite simple. The person making the hiring decisions sets the tone as to the importance of education. If the fire chief cherishes education, you can bet he or she will expect the entry-level firefighters to have a degree (or at least be actively working toward one) prior to getting hired. If, on the other hand, he or she is more mechanically inclined, education may not be a priority. These organizational priorities change as the fire chief retires, and the new fire chief will set his or her own priorities.
I began taking my fire science courses shortly after having graduated from high school. I entered the fire science program at the local junior college, taking the 6 fire science and EMT prerequisite classes for the basic fire academy. I completed the courses in two semesters and one summer session, then entered the fire academy. Upon graduation from the fire academy, and armed with 30 units of fire science courses, I started picking away at my Associate of Science Degree in fire science. I was fortunate enough to be hired at 20 years old by the Los Angeles City Fire Department as a single function paramedic. Eighteen months later, I was hired by Long Beach as a firefighter.
I had great intentions of completing my Associate’s Degree and ultimately my Bachelor’s Degree. A promotion to firefighter/paramedic and ultimately to Captain, starting a business, becoming a husband, father, and author has put my educational plans on hold. In short, the rigors of dealing with everyday life as a firefighter and the shifting schedule made it difficult to continue my education. Is this an excuse? No way. I firmly believe that anything can be accomplished once you set your mind to it. For me it just never became a big priority. In addition, my department did not stress education.
Is it possible to get your education after getting hired on a fire department? By all means, yes. My brother Mark is also a firefighter. He earned his Bachelor’s Degree while working shift work as a firefighter. He did his research and found a handful of instructors who were “firefighter” friendly. These instructors have a reputation for emphasizing the productivity of the student rather than hours spent in a classroom. An instructor who understands the rigors of a firefighter’s schedule certainly can make the difference in whether or not a firefighter successfully completes a degree.
In today’s day and age, the advent of the Internet makes it possible for a student to complete a course regardless of the time or location. There are numerous colleges which now offer fire science courses online. These are the perfect solution for a working person with a family who struggles to get into a structured class. The student does not have to worry about getting off work early, fighting traffic, paying for parking, or finding a babysitter for the kids. Online courses accommodate all schedules, since it does not matter what time of the day or night a student “logs in” to participate in the discussion centers. In my opinion, there is now no excuse for a person applying to fire departments not to have his or her education.
In many areas of the country an Associate’s Degree is the standard. If a candidate does not have one, the evaluator’s eyebrows are raised to question why he or she has not taken the time to earn one. In a few communities it is even required before taking the entry-level exam.
Many new firefighters often have more advanced degrees. Although this depends on a myriad of different circumstances, it seems there is certainly a strong trend in this direction.
Where do these more highly educated candidates come from? Are these the same fire science students found in the average fire science courses? No, commonly they are people who obtained a degree to enter the professional workforce as a teacher, computer specialist, stockbroker, or some other profession, but decided they were dissatisfied in their profession. In short, they decided on a career change.
As a general rule these candidates are older than the typical applicant. This is substantiated by the fact that they spent 4 years in school earning their degree, followed immediately by several years in the workforce before deciding they missed their calling. These candidates have learned the value of hard work and determination. Unfortunately, their career choice was not satisfying for them. Oftentimes they have learned that money is not the most important thing after all. They have discovered that although firefighters do not make a great deal of money (enough to be comfortable), a firefighter’s job satisfaction rating is very high.
Once these candidates “round out” their education with fire science courses and a fire academy, a department quickly snaps them up. These candidates fit the profile perfectly of the older candidate who loves his or her job and excels in the fire service. Fire departments across the country have keyed into these candidates and hire them at their first opportunity. A candidate who has worked in another profession usually makes a strong firefighter, as he or she knows what it’s like to work in a job in which there is minimal job satisfaction. Being a firefighter is a far cry from being trapped behind a desk in a cubicle.
A firefighter with experience as a drafter, computer technician or some other technical field brings a great new dimension to the fire service. Where once firefighters struggled with computers or prefire plans, the modern firefighter is able to create a computer generated mock up of a building. These plans include locations of hazardous materials, storage of company records as well as locations of fire department standpipe and sprinkler connections. The value that these drawings bring to an incident commander huddled around the command post is immeasurable. All of this because the fire chief elected to hire a firefighter with some computer experience.
Most firefighter candidates should aspire to complete at least an Associate’s Degree. Standard prerequisites such as math, English and writing are naturally required. Although it varies from college to college, the required courses usually include Introduction to Fire Science, Physics and Chemistry for Firefighters, Firefighter Safety, Fire Prevention, Building Construction, Fire Sprinkler Extinguishing Systems, Physical Fitness for Firefighters and Emergency Medical Technician (EMT).
Introduction to Fire Science teaches the student the basics of how the fire service works. It covers the difference between a fire engine and a fire truck, a captain and a chief. The course usually involves a class project in which the student is required to knock on the door of a fire station and research a firefighter’s job description, regular duties and responsibilities throughout the course of his or her shift, the pay and benefit schedule.
Upon completion of the project, the student knows exactly what a firefighter does in the course of his or her shift, and how he or she is compensated. This course is the basic framework that will give a student the confidence to walk into a fire station anywhere around the country and understand the basic terminology and operations that all fire departments follow.
Physics and Chemistry (sometimes called “fire chemistry”) breaks down the chemical processes of how a fire starts, and most importantly, how it can be extinguished. The course covers the different classifications of fire and the basics of fire behavior. It covers the law of heat transfer and clearly delineates how a fire spreads throughout a structure or a forest. The more a firefighter understands the way a fire spreads, the better he or she will be able to combat and ultimately extinguish it. The course teaches the student to interpret and explain the labels present on all fire extinguishers.
Physics and Chemistry also provides a basic foundation for dealing with hazardous materials. Since there are so many toxic chemicals present in smoke (the byproduct of combustion), it is essential that a firefighter understands how it affects him or her. Firefighters are usually the initial response agency for hazardous materials incidents. This means that a firefighter must be trained to recognize the dangers, and what needs to be done to minimize the adverse effects on the citizens of a community, their property and the environment.
Firefighter safety is a critical part of our profession. Statistics show that there is a strong probability that during the course of a career, a firefighter is going to miss time from his or her work due to a job-related injury. Being a firefighter is undisputedly one of the most hazardous occupations in the country. The Firefighter Safety course will teach students the importance of wearing safety equipment. It will examine firefighter death and injury investigations, and seek to identify how each incident could have ended positively, instead of in tragedy.
Fire Prevention is also an important part of a firefighter’s assignment. After all, most mission statements have a reference to preventing fires before they occur. A firefighter must be able to walk into a place of business and identify things that are in violation of the Uniform Fire Code. Our intent is not to write citations, but rather to get the business owner to rectify the potential fire causing violation. As a firefighter our salaries are paid by thriving businesses in the community. Our objective is to make the businesses “fire safe” so they can continue to employ the citizens of our community and contribute to the tax base. The Fire Prevention course will teach the aspiring firefighter the basics of the fire code as well as many of the most common violations encountered by firefighters. In addition, it teaches the student how and why firefighters have the authority to enter a business, make recommendations and ultimately mandate that a business comply with the established fire codes.
Building Construction is one of the most important classes a firefighter candidate will take. It is critical that a firefighter understand the basics of how buildings are put together, as many are killed or injured when buildings unexpectedly fall when subjected to fire. Students should be able to name all of the structural members used in the construction of a house or apartment building, as well as how large warehouses are constructed.
The more a firefighter understands what happens to different structural members during extreme situations, the more he or she can predict when a building will fail. With the advent of engineered trusses to support roof structures, many new buildings will predictably fail as early as 8 minutes when subjected to fire. This is usually about the time the firefighters have laid their lines and are making their initial attack on the fire. The Building Construction course will teach the student how to predict the longevity of each common building style.
Fire extinguishing systems are an integral part of how a firefighter attacks a fire. If a building has built-in systems that assist the fire department to extinguish the fire, minimize injury and reduce property damage, it is understood that the firefighters will be proficient in their use. The Fire Sprinkler Extinguishing System course teaches the student exactly how a fire sprinkler system operates and how to best use it to augment the firefighting efforts. Students will be tasked with designing a fire extinguishing sprinkler system for a large warehouse using industry standard formulas.
Emergency Medical Technician training is a critical part of a firefighter’s training. Since the majority of a fire department’s emergency responses are EMS related (often as high as 90%), it is imperative that a firefighter is a proficient EMT. An EMT is able to splint fractures, take vital signs, and place victims in cervical spine stabilization as well as perform a myriad of other responsibilities relating to patient care.
EMT is a 106-hour course. Although it may be offered within the context of the fire academy, EMT training should be taken before a student enters the fire academy. Since there is so much memorization required in the course, it is much easier if a student completes an EMT course prior to entering the academy. This is not an area an aspiring firefighter should be weak in.
A candidate who has a strong educational background will be much more attractive to fire departments. Although many firefighters are hired with little or no education, a candidate who has a degree will have a dis

Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief
www.aspiringfirefighters.com

[bfdpipeman]

I had the same dilema myself. I had been a basic for 2 years, and I had my associates degree in information systems. I ended up going for my medic first. In the area I am in, your medic will get you hired faster than a bachelors, but you don't have much chance at promotion without a good solid education behind you. Personally I would suggest going for your medic first, but only if you have ample experience as a basic. Just remember.... BLS ALWAYS comes before ALS... make sure you have a good foundation of skills and priciples to build off of.

[tulsa442]

I'm trying to decide the same thing. Tulsa doesn't require anything but a GED. I just finished my EMT-B as well and am trying to decide more college classes for my associates, or EMT-I or EMT-P.

My EMT-B instructor recommended going in to the feild for a year or two before Paramedic school. He said I would be alot easier for you in paramedic class.

One Dept I am trying for which is a subarb or Tulsa provides ambulance service. Tusla does not. So I would think that Tulsa would look more towards a degree compared to the other dept which you must be atleast an EMT.

[jerry4184]

I think the single most important thing is quality instruction. If you are learning everything on the street then you are a poor student or you attended a poor EMS program.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be a paramedic. You don't even have to be that bright. Your actions are directed in advance, and if you get nervous there are field guides, job-aids, and in some cases on-line medical control.

I would wholeheartedly disagree here. You can have the best teachers in the world, but still suck as an EMT and Medic. Good instruction builds you a good base to work off of, but it won't make you a good medic or EMT. That takes experience, and time.

Besides, it's like any other career, you learn "how" to do it in the class, and all that, then you learn how things are really done once you hit the streets.

[Catch22]

I would wholeheartedly disagree here. You can have the best teachers in the world, but still suck as an EMT and Medic. Good instruction builds you a good base to work off of, but it won't make you a good medic or EMT. That takes experience, and time and the right attitude.

[tommygavin]

think i'm gunna go with the medic in the fall. i have my emt now. just finished. fire academy in jan, anatomy/phis this summer and then medic in the fall.

next problem. i need turnout gear for the academy and i cant get volly or on call where i live.

anyone know where to get some cheap gear?

[GaiusPaul]

think i'm gunna go with the medic in the fall. i have my emt now. just finished. fire academy in jan, anatomy/phis this summer and then medic in the fall.

next problem. i need turnout gear for the academy and i cant get volly or on call where i live.

anyone know where to get some cheap gear?

Doesn't the school have some? My school has turnouts for rent for $150.00 a term.

[CaptBob]

think i'm gunna go with the medic in the fall. i have my emt now. just finished. fire academy in jan, anatomy/phis this summer and then medic in the fall.

Good choice.

If you really want to get a firefighter job consider these points:

Is there a requirement for an advanced degree to get a firefighter job?

Answer: Few if any. A fraction of departments list an advanced degree as desirable but not required.

Where are 80% of the job offerings?

Answer: Fire/medics

There are up to 800 candidates chasing each firefighter job. How many are chasing a fire/medic job?

Answer: 12-20. Which odds do you like better?

Ask yourself who's getting the badges? The vast majority of candidates we see get hired do not have advanced degrees. They're more in the line of EMT, FF1 academy, working on or have an AA or AS degree or medics. Some have no fire education or experience. Their biggest asset was they leaned how to take an interview.

What’s the time line? If you’re just starting college and want to get your BA, it could take you 4 maybe 5 or more years depending on when you can line up and complete all your classes and requirements. Then, if you wanted to go further the timing it to get into and academy and or paramedic school and get some street time another 2+ years? So around 7 years give or take to get in position to go after the badge. Are you going to need student loans? Do you have a special person in your life who is going to wait while you pursue your career? How long can you tread water?

The path to become a medic is about 2 years with gaining some savvy street time. If you can get in an academy in that time period it will be convincing evidence that you have the hands on experience that a department can take a risk on you.

Can you continue your education once you’re hired? Will departments give you an education incentive?

Answer: Yes to both.

Yes, having a degree will help with promotions but how long will it be before you will qualify to take a promotional exam?

Answer: Engineer depending on the agency 3 plus years. An officer? Five or more years. So if you get on you could obtain the necessary education before your first promotional test to be in position. And, the department will pay for you to go to college. And, to be able to use the advanced degree you have to get the J-O-B first.

From another candidate:

With all due respect to all that was said, speaking as a volunteer firefighter who has a 4 year degree, I would say that getting your BA or BS for a firefighter job is not a good way to go. I got my BS, and $100,000 later, I'm hoping to work in a job that requires only a technical certification that costs $250. and having the BS with out the tech cert makes me pretty much unhirable.

Get your paramedic. get your FF1 and FF2. get your hazmat tech. those are what is going to make you valuable to a company. A 4 year degree is worthwhile, but only if you use it. most departments aren't requiring them. some departments will even pay for you to attend college courses. yes, it helps if you want to become an officer or a chief officer. but your going for entry level. your going to have to pass the physical, pass the psych test, pass the written, and pass the oral board.

Focus on your goal and don't let anything get in your way until you get it.

[gantrys73]

if you want a day job join the police force. get the medic cert. and then see if you can get hired by a paid dept. when the city council/fire district is looking to cut firemen, close firehouses. the chief testifies to them that all my firefighters are all also paramedics. these politicians might never need a firemen, but everybody will need a medic at some point. get it. 70% of calls are medical in nature. its a funding tool and it puts you ahead of everyone else.

[BLSboy]

if you want a day job join the police force.
What does that have to do with anything?

get the medic cert. and then see if you can get hired by a paid dept. when the city council/fire district is looking to cut firemen, close firehouses. the chief testifies to them that all my firefighters are all also paramedics. these politicians might never need a firemen, but everybody will need a medic at some point. get it. 70% of calls are medical in nature. its a funding tool and it puts you ahead of everyone else.

NO. If you want to be a Fireman, BE A FIREMAN. If you want to be a Paramedic, BE A PARAMEDIC. If you want to be a FireMedic, BE A FIREMEDIC.

Becoming a Paramedic is NOT like an EMT. You need to know alot more anatomy and physiology, medications, and interactions they have with the pts own medications, as well as other meds you could be called to give.

I am sick and tired of seeing EMS dumbed down by Firemen who don't want to do it.
Mutt City managers "save" money by consolidating services, and the tax payers suffer for it.

There would be outrage if the local FD was folded up, and taken over by the EMS agency.
Why is there none when EMS is swallowed by the FD, and pt care suffers by Firemen who are FORCED to become Medics to keep their job.


To the Original Poster, if you WANT to be a Medic, then get some street time in as an EMT, see if it is for you, then go on the Medic school.

I don't care what anyone else says, going from EMT right into Medic is NOT a good idea. If they did it, they they are retarded, and/or lucky.

And don't even get me started on all ALS areas.....:mad:

[BLSboy]

Get your paramedic. get your FF1 and FF2. get your hazmat tech. those are what is going to make you valuable to a company. A 4 year degree is worthwhile, but only if you use it. most departments aren't requiring them. some departments will even pay for you to attend college courses. yes, it helps if you want to become an officer or a chief officer. but your going for entry level. your going to have to pass the physical, pass the psych test, pass the written, and pass the oral board.

Focus on your goal and don't let anything get in your way until you get it.

Capt. Bob;
I have read your posts, and perused your website quite often. I have nothing but the highest respect for you, and, for the most part, agree with what you say, and I follow your advice. However, getting your Medic cert, JUST to get hired, with little understanding of what it encompasses, only serves to further degrade pt care. Having someone who doesnt want to do a job, does not make him the best person to do it.
I am currently a Paramedic student, and I have a large number of Firefighters from the County dept in my class. Very few of them actually WANT to be there. Most want to just take it to keep their job, or, for the exempted ones, make a few thousand dollars a year more.
Now tell me, and God forbid this would happen, you suffer a serious medical condition, and you summon EMS, which happens to be provided by the local FD. They have FORCED their Firemen into Medic class, and gotten rid of the standalone EMS agency.
Do you really think that you would be receiving the same level of care form your Brother Firemen, as you would have from the standalone?

Food for though...........

[tommygavin]

you make some very good points bls boy and i agree with everything u say. however, i dont wanna be up ****s creek in june with i have my emt and ff1&2 and cant get a job because i'm going against 6 thousand people for one job.

no i dont really want to get my medic. yes i will if i have to

[jasper45]

Where are 80% of the job offerings?

Well, where I live and work, there are no entry level fire/medic offerings, only firefighter.

There are up to 800 candidates chasing each firefighter job. How many are chasing a fire/medic job?

The answer, in my area, is 0. Paramedic is considered a step up by many departments here. Having your paramedic license will only help you work part time, somewhere else.

With all due respect to all that was said, speaking as a volunteer firefighter who has a 4 year degree, I would say that getting your BA or BS for a firefighter job is not a good way to go.

All except for the fact that where I work, an AAS will net you 3 extra points, and a BS will get you 5. What will your paramedic license get you? Absolutely nothing, not even a pat on the back.. Those extra points can you move past hundreds of people.

What is my point here? You absolutely have to research the entry level requirements of the departments with which you want to apply. Everywhere is different.
With many departments in my area, if you want to be a paramedic after probation, they will send you to paramedic school. That means they will pay you to go. Your job will be to become a paramedic. You get your salary, ride time, and everything else that goes along with it, and all on the city's time and dime.

[CaptBob]

BLSboy: I agree you should really want to do the job of a medic before you apply. As mentioned before though 70%+ of the calls will be EMS in most locations, so you will be doing EMS too. If you considering medic school, get your EMT and ride an ambulance for awhile to see if this is really for you. If you get your pre-regs, complete you schooling, diddactic, get your medic cert. and then back on the ambulanc to gain some much needed savvy street time before you try to get on a department becasue there is only one thing harder than becoming a firefighter. That's becoming a new firefighter and a new medic at the same time.

Jasper wrote: What is my point here? You absolutely have to research the entry level requirements of the departments with which you want to apply. Everywhere is different.

Good point. But it is our experience that your area could be an exception. As what has happened with other areas of the county the citizens and local goverments have mandated and upgraded the EMS sytem to include more medics. You already see them sending firefighters to medic school now. Then they could figure out they could save some big $$$ in education and hiring back to cover those in school by just requiring the candidates to have their medic cert to take the test. You wouldn't have to move far away from your area to see this in play now. If you couldn't get a job in your area and had your medic you would have more places to test? Not too many months and years ahead there will be those who will be hired and those the will not for what ever reason. How long can you tread water?

Should you become a paramedic to get a firefighter job?

If you understand that there are 500-800 candidates for each firefighter job, that you could be running out of hope, the love of your life is not going to wait any longer unless she has a ring and a date, been the frequent flyer mileage king flying all over the country and unsuccessfully taking tests, your biggest income last year came from your credit cards. You have lost friends and relatives. Don't know how you're going to live without the job of your dreams. Can afford to take the time and loss of income to make it happen. Have a supporting partner. Know you would have to spend about a year getting certified and it will be the toughest thing you have ever done. A relative will pay for your education. Have GI Bill education money. Can get a student loan. Know that 80% of the job offerings now are for fire medics and up to 75% of our calls are ems related anyway. Know that even if you become a medic, you still may never get this job. Have been riding ambulance anyway and this will pave the way into many medic schools. Aren't going to take the chance of some college programs that only take 35 people a year and receive over 200 applications. Will step up and pay the $7,000 plus dollars to be in and out of a program in about a year. You're an energizer bunny who will keep going and going and going when others' would stop. Know that if you were a medic taking a regular firefighter entrance test you would probably get a better shot. Won't be happy until you can puff your chest out with a badge and have people wave at you in the jump seats, carrying on a family tradition. Want that shift work with great benefits that go way into retirement. A career position with chances of advancement. The opportunity to use the education and experience you have already gained and can continue. To work for a department that could offer you everything a firefighter could hope for. Calls that would cover anything from air land and sea. A place where you couldn't wait to get back from your days off. Being able to go from one call to another to another on a busy rig. Believe me there is nothing like it.

I know you will hear that if you really don't want to be a medic don't just do it to get the job. But, If you answered yes to the majority of the above there is no doubt where you will be the happiest. If I were in your position I would beg, borrow, and run with my afterburners on to get to medic school! Because unlike a regular entry level test where there are 500-800 candidates for each job, there are only 20 candidates for every fire medic job. It is by far your fastest way to the badge.

"Absolutely Nothing counts until you have a real BADGE . . . Nothing!

[tommygavin]

i answered yes to just about all of em. maybe i'll go to medic school in the fall and get on call somwhere in the fall after the academy.

have to take out some loads tho. i dont think i'd be able to work full time and go to medic school.

[CaptBob]

i answered yes to just about all of em. maybe i'll go to medic school in the fall and get on call somwhere in the fall after the academy.

have to take out some loads tho. i dont think i'd be able to work full time and go to medic school.

I've had few candidates who put a plan together what was needed to go to medic school and presented it to parents, grand parents, relatives or friends that didn't come up with what was needed including living expenses. You see they do want you to succeed. Problem is not enough candidates put a plan together including the time line and the big rewards at the end of the rainbow. People want you to be successful. Don't just say they won't help until you try. Swallow your pride and step up with a plan.

Many institutions don’t list or qualify as eligible education institutions when it comes to federal financial aid or financially eligible/accredited programs or vocational schools (let them tell you no before making assumptions).

Most private institutions do have a particular bank that is utilized by their students; you may want to get in contact with them. Although student loans though banks can be at a higher interest rate, they’re still at a lower rate than credit cards.

One candidate wrote: I went through Wells Fargo PLATO loans. . I got a great rate and it was very east and quick to get the money. Of course, it all depends on your credit history. It’s also good to have your credit cards just in case since there are so many things you get nickel and dimed by in school.

http://www.wellsfargo.com/student/loans/undergrad/career.jhtml

Another candidate wrote: I highly recommend trying FAFSA first it’s the cheapest route. By utilizing FAFSA I was able to get Pell grants, the BOG (waives tuition) and still use my GI Bill.

Still more: If I had attended an eligible program, and received the appropriate 1098-T form at year's end, I could have deducted up to $4000 off of my Adjusted Gross Income tax filing.

Another way to get in an academy is through http://www.trainingdivision.com This is a home study program that you can complete on line at your time schedule and then go to Texas for the hands on 2-3 week completion to obtain your certificate. Cost? About $2,800.

[BCLepore]

Bob continues to imply to candidates that the only way to get a job is by becoming a paramedic. I am sick and tired of debating this fact.
Let me preface by saying that I am a certified Paramedic and run the EMS Division of a MAJOR California fire department. I am here to tell you that YOU DO NOT NEED TO BECOME A PARAMEDIC TO GET HIRED ON THE FIRE DEPARTMENT!

Bob puts out some MADE UP number of 80% of all job openings are for Paramedics. This is NOT FACTUAL and is a misrepresentation of the truth. DO NOT FALL FOR IT! (While there may be more exams for Paramedics, they only hire a few at a time. There are FAR more openings for EMT firefighters). Don’t fall for the propaganda.

Additionally, while I cannot provide statistical data my personal experience shows that the failure rate of paramedics is higher than non-medics. This is because they took the “quick” way to getting hired and never learned their basic skills. And, as a general rule sitting on an ambulance of a number of years did not help their physical conditioning. (Yes, the above two statements are not supported by facts, just my observations)

I ran an informal survey a while back of many of the major departments across the country including Los Angeles, Denver, Memphis, San Francisco, Austin as well as a bunch of other departments to see exactly who was hiring Paramedics. I accounted for over 5,000 recently hired firefighters across the country. The numbers showed that roughly 3-1 NON-Medics got hired.

Here is my recommendation. Stay physically fit, become an EMT, take fire science courses, enroll in a volunteer or reserve program, complete a basic fire academy, and most importantly LEARN HOW TO TAKE A FIRE DEPARTMENT INTERVIEW.

If you do all of these things and you still cannot land a job (I bet it’s because you have difficulty taking a fire department interview), then you MAY want to consider becoming a paramedic.
Paul Lepore
Battalion Chief
www.aspiringfirefighters.com

[CaptBob]

Merry Christmas Chief.

You can try to spin it anyway you want but this is what I wrote:

Ask yourself who's getting the badges? The vast majority of candidates we see get hired do not have advanced degrees. They're more in the line of EMT, FF1 academy, working on or have an AA or AS degree or medics. Some have no fire education or experience. Their biggest asset was they leaned how to take an interview.


This above posting looked like the one you ran 9 months ago. Here was my response then that you didn't reply to:

BCLepore wrote:
You keep using the statistic of 80% of the openings are for paramedic. I do not believe your statement and challenge you to qualify it. Is this a fact or is this just your opinion?

Just did a quick job search right here on the ever changing firecareers.com web site for California and Oregon Job offerings and found:

6 Firefighter job listings

21 Fire/Medic Job listings

jd1407 wrote in the previous link you posted:

Chief Lepore,
With all due respect to you and what you have done to help me personaly I have to disagree. When I became a medic the available jobs to apply for substantialy increased. I would have not gotten a job as a firefighter unless I had my medic cert. At the time, my dept. was only looking to hire medics. I also have done the associates of fire science program, academy grad. from Rio Hondo, reserve time, volunteer time, emt for 5 years, er time, haz-mat, some college and multiple CSFA classes. But it was the medic cert. that got me the job.

As you mentioned, many agencies testing for only firefighters would latch onto a medic if they were qualified. The department gets a 2 for 1 with the medic. Could the reason be that there are not more available medics is they’re being gobbled up by other agencies? The last Hayward and CoCo County medic only tests only around 200 showed up.

Candidates who have been beating their heads against the wall trying to compete with the army of other candidates with all the credentials and merit badges that you can imagine for the available jobs; then get their medic cert like jd1407 above tell me how things immediately turn around in their favor. The odds of competing with up to 20 candidates instead of up to 800 speak for themselves.

This topic has been covered before here:
http://www.firecareers.com/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=11&Topic=6102

Plus being a medic you can take more tests. I believe the more tests you take the better you get at taking tests. So when the department you really want to work for comes along you are ahead of the curve and won’t be stumped by a question you never heard.

The point here is where is the shortest distance between the candidate and the badge. An advanced degree or a medic cert? True, whichever way a candidate decides to take they need to learn how to take a firefighter interview.

In the months and years ahead are candidates going to be saying I prepared in advanced for the steps in the hiring process and got the badge. Or, I listened to the advice of those who somehow convinced me they knew what was going on and my life long dream of riding big red vanished?

This is from a previous posting:

http://www.firecareers.com/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=11&Topic=7443

One other thing to consider in this debate between Paul and Capt. Bob, is that you cannot use Paul and Chris's department and Los Angeles as the bellweather departments to gauge how it is in all areas of California or the country. They are LARGE departments, and they are certainly not representative of the hundreds of other departments in California.

I know where I live, there is one BLS fire department in the county. All others ONLY hire paramedics. None will send you to paramedic school, and only a couple will send you to any "academy" style training after you are hired.

If you want a job with a department who's only entry level position is that of Firefighter/Paramedic, guess what? You aren't getting hired without your paramedic license. There are MANY departments like this. I would say that the overwhelming majority of departments don't send their employees to paramedic school. They want you qualified for their entry level position day one.


Good Luck!

FireMedic

[HereToLearn]

Well I'm going to stay out of that disagreement...


But one thing that the thread starter may have not considered is the possibility of getting hurt on the job. If you spend some time on an ambulance you will see the size of some of the people we get to move...Many times you will not have the benefit of a whole engine crew to help you out either. It will just be you and your attendant or driver.

Anyway, my point is that having that BS degree will be nice to have just in case something bad happens...At least you will have other opportunities for jobs that would have never even considered you without that degree.

Afterall, this is a career centered around the unexpected...

[tommygavin]

when you guys say medic "cert" you do mean becoming a licensed paramedic right?

[truckmonkey42]

Please do not become a medic just to get hired. People who I have seen do that are some of the worst medics out there. Many times they end up being terds on the fire side as well. This is not everyone of course, but just my experience. In your case it sounds like you need a few years as an EMT under your belt. Then you can see if you really want to be a medic.
Continue to take fire science classes, volunteer, etc. Spend time preparing for the testing process so you only have to do it once. It may take longer than that but if you are prepared it won't take long to get hired.

[BCLepore]

Here is a sample of the post I referred to:
Tucson Arizona
150 firefighters hired 12 Medics

Seattle
16 firefighters 0 Medics

Phoenix
57 firefighters 3 medics

Culver City, Ca.
14 firefighters 2 medics

Beverly Hills
6 firefighters 0 medics

Tallahassee, Fl.
7 firefighters 1 medic

Long Beach California

48 firefighters hired (2 drill classes) 7 paramedics

Memphis

322 firefighters 89 paramedics


Total:

620 Firefighters 114 Paramedics

Please feel free to add your department's statistics.

[BCLepore]

Just did a quick search on the website you mentioned and I tallied the following results in California:

20 EMT firefighter exams-
30 Entrylevel FF/PM exams - (Many of the FF/PM exams require a firefighter 1 academy)

Most of the openings were labeled as continuous recruitment. What this means is that it is a small department who hires one at a time.

Lastly, when you look at the job postings for firefighter EMT it was several of the big departments within the state. Translated they hire 20 - 50 at a time.

[MikeWard]

One of the problems when dealing in absolutes is the differences in what the "authority having jurisdiction" decides it needs.

I am only knowledgeable about the Washington DC/Baltimore area. About 7000 career firefighter positions.

In my neighborhood, if you are a drug-free, physically fit, felony-free majority (white) male, you significantly increase your chances of getting "the badge" by applying for the job with a National Registry EMT-Paramedic certification. You can still get a job without ALS certification, but you are competing in a exponentially larger pool of candidates.

The Virginia suburbs (Fairfax, Prince William) have partnered with the high schools and Northern Virginia Community College. Fire cadets get EMT-Basic in high school and get their EMT-Intermediate or Paramedic by time they are eligible for employment. Both departments will hire these students as part-timers while they are at college. The program is designed to meet the dual goals of meeting community diversity with ALS qualified candidates.

Baltimore City not only wants you to get trained as an ALS provider, but to maintain it for your entire career, regardless of the rank you obtain. Their goal is that all of the firefighters are ALS capable.

We can debate on another thread the appropriateness of this approach to municipal fire protection.
______________________________ ____________

As a "fossilmedic" who spent four years riding the ambulance before starting medic school, I appreciate the concept that you need patient care experience to be a more effective medic.

That image crumbles in my current world, where I see how medical students become physicians. The world does not come to an end if someone starts paramedic school while the ink is still damp on their EMT-Basic card.

I agree with an earlier post, the quality of your education (or training) is more important than the number of real patient contacts. At some point we will figure out a better way to train and maintain lifesavers.

The majority of ems educators who run community college programs or are regional instructor/coordinators have not achieved enough academic experiences to go beyond the 1966 era vocational training model.

This is not a slam, we never asked them to do anything different and we rewarded the most effective skill instructors. A provision in the proposed Scope of Practice will require the paramedic program instructor/coordinator to have a bachelor degree. Most of the current community college program heads do not meet that requirement.

On the other hand, the majority of the fire science program heads have a bachelor degree. Go figure!
______________________________ ___

Going back to the original poster's question. I have no idea what you need to do to get hired in your community. You need to ask the recruiters and do your own research.

My experience as an educator is that you should get your bachelor degree sooner rather than later. It is easier to finish it before your start shift work, get married and have kids.

I no longer am concerned if someone is in medic school "just to get a job" or because it is a calling. I *DO* care that they are capable and competent.

Good luck!

Mike
who is this guy? http://home.gwu.edu/~mikeward/

Speaking of education,
"Nursing Is A Profession, Firefighting Is A Hobby and Paramedics Are Caught In The Middle" http://firegeezer.com/2007/09/25/nursing-is-a-profession-firefighting-is-a-hobby-and-paramedics-are-caught-in-the-middle/

[MikeWard]

With the background noise of someone beating a dead horse ...

Only Rhode Island, California and Florida require a candidate to complete Firefighter I/II training BEFORE you can apply for a municipal firefighter job.

Both Captain Bob and Chief Lepore have California careers. Their passion and conviction is based on their point-of-view. Just because California requires it does NOT mean that Oklahoma, Texas or New York will require it.

Finding the "right" combination of technical training, academic achievement and physical ability will be different for each department you are interested in.

Large city and county employers are driven by 40 years of administrative law, Justice Department (EEO/AA) mandates, grievances, lawsuits and settlements. Every place has unique experiences with public safety hiring.

Justice is not consistent. What is allowed to be required in City A, and approved by the Justice Department, could be a prohibited requirement in County B.

tommygavin was looking for some advise on what he needs to do next. He is living in Michigan and is 24 years old.

MY opinion is that he needs to research the departments he is interested in, to clearly understand what are the minimum and preferred requirements for a firefighter candidate:

Some have residency requirements
Some could care less what pre-employment training/experience he brings.
Many are reducing the number or size of recruit schools in Fiscal Year 2008-2009 because of diminished revenue from local real estate taxes.
Some will preferentially hire candidates with ALS certification. In some cases, higher pay or a sign-up bonus.

But you will NOT get accurate information based on the responses posted here, including mine.

You need to look at the jurisdiction's web site and find the hiring information.
Call the recruiting/hiring office to understand all of the requirements.

Maintain a notebook or digital log of who you talked to (with date/time) and what they said.

Pay attention to deadlines and meet them. Over a fourth of the applications to fire departments in my area are dropped because the candidate does not provide the requested information (such as a driving record) by the deadline or show up for scheduled appointments.

[jasper45]

tommygavin was looking for some advise on what he needs to do next. He is living in Michigan and is 24 years old.


This is why I was offering some information on what it takes to get a career job in my neck of the woods, 6 hours or so from Detroit, and only Indiana and Illinois away from Michigan.
It also just so happens we'll be running a test for firefighter in the spring of 2008.

[MikeWard]

This is why I was offering some information on what it takes to get a career job in my neck of the woods, 6 hours or so from Detroit, and only Indiana and Illinois away from Michigan.
It also just so happens we'll be running a test for firefighter in the spring of 2008. I appreciate that point and was not disrespecting your effort. My responses were based on two items:

1) The two quarrelling California-based employment experts.

2) A concern that candidates rely too much on information on a message board and do not perform the due dilligence directly with the municipality.

My hope would be that tommygavin would take the information you provided and then directly contact the department.

Mike

[gunnyv]

tommygavin,

I am a career firefighter/medic in the Detroit area-Macomb County. I can tell you that you will not be allowed to even take the test at most departments in my area without at least EMT and FF II. Almost all require Medic at application. My Dept is getting ready to test and is requiring FFII and EMT at time of application, but must be a Medic at time of hire. This change is because we have seen less than 50 qualified applicants at each test due to the FFII/Medic requirement. Sterling Hts FD recently exhausted its list and had to retest because they ran out of applicants on the list. If you are outside the Detroit Metro area, I cannot say if this is consistent with departments in your area.

If you get the job, then act like you don't want to be a medic, you will fail probation. We expect the new guys to do that part of the job. It is in the job description, and there are plenty of guys who were here before you filling the non-medic slots.

The city of Toledo is about to take apps, a friend of mine is on their recruiting staff. No EMT or FFII required. Go here for info:
http://www.toledofirerecruitment.com/

Be advised, Michigan has no reciprocity for fire academy training with any other state. If you plan to go out of state, don't bother with the academy yet. Listen to MikeWard-contact the specific departments you are interested in and get good scoop.

[jasper45]

My hope would be that tommygavin would take the information you provided and then directly contact the department.


And you have provided him with the most sound advice, yet again. He has to at least fill out the application himself.

Gunny, good advice as well.

[dmfireschool]

Questions for Chief Lapore and your two year college degree recommendation.

Recently a fire applicant posting information that is testing specifically for the state of Ohio. The advice you give them is to get a two-year degree in fire science, become an EMT and, of course, one the most important requirements you recommended to this person for becoming a firefighter in Ohio is to learn a trade. Not once do you mention becoming a paramedic in your two year plan.

This person listens to your advice and finds out that after investing two or three years of their time in getting a two year college degree and an EMT certificate that they can't take 80- 90% of the exams not only in Ohio but mant midwest and eastern states of the country.

80-90% of the exams given in Ohio require you to be a paramedic or enrolled in paramedic school to even take the test for full time departments. We do realize some major cities do not require you to be paramedic to be hired so there is no need to post those jobs as an example. However, that will be changing in the next 5-10 years. The majority of the hiring of firefighters in this country is done by departments of 100 firefighters or less. These departments want people who are paramedics.

Even if a city does not have a requirement of being a paramedic, with the one in three, one in five or one in ten civil service rules that many municipalities have, if you are just an EMT or have a two year degree the city can pass you over and choose someone else down the list who is a paramedic. They don't have to give a reason but their reason would be a very sound one, that the candidate farther down the list is better qualified by being a paramedic than someone who is a EMT or has a two year degree. This happens many, many times. A city is not going to hire you if you are just an EMT and then send you to school for a year to become a paramedic and have to pay overtime for someone to fill your slot when you are working and attending paramedic school. Cities want people that can be hired immediately.

When firehouse.com first started their entry-level site, they choose the following individuals to write articles for them ~ Capt. Bob Smith, Chief Brent Collins and Chief Steve Prziborowski. These individuals were selected because of their expertise in preparing fire applicants and pointing them in the right direction to become a firefighter across the country. All three of us are in agreement - becoming a paramedic will open many more doors to becoming a firefighter than a two year collge degree or just being an EMT.

Firehouse.com is read by many fire applicants across the country and many of them respect your advice. Much of the information in your two year plan is very good advice. I do not agree with your advice about having fire applicants get their two-year degree before becoming a paramedic for taking exams in the Midwest and eastern parts of this country. It will not get these fire applicants jobs! The only way to get your foot in the door is being a paramedic in this part of the country, as well as many other parts of the United States.

I would suggest in the future that you give your advice specific to the area they are testing (for example, the individual who posted about information concerning Ohio jobs) instead of giving your two blanket postings (your two year plan and the importance of education) to everyone who reads this forum and other forums you contribute to. Your two-year plan might work for some areas of the country but it will not work for the majority of fire applicants in Ohio and other Midwest and eastern states of the country. You are sending candidates down the WRONG path for the jobs in this area of the country.

Final thought – no one is questioning the integrity of Chief Lepore. His reputation in the fire service as a fire officer is impeccable. We just have a different opinion on what is the best path and will open the most doors to becoming a firefighter in different areas of the country.

For the fire applicants out there, it is your choice as to what advice to take to help you in your pursuit of becoming a firefighter. If you feel that a two-year degree and an EMT certification will open more doors to get you hired, we wish you the best of luck. It's an important career choice to make; make sure you make the right one!

Brent Collins
Assistant Chief, Cleveland Fire Department
firehouse.com entry-level author
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/contributor/bio.jsp?id=17
President, [url]www.FirePrep.com

[tommygavin]

thanks for all the info guys. i think this is what i am going to do:

i recently finished my emt-b course and actually have an interview with a local ems co. for an emt-b job this comming wed. hopefully i'll get that.

i also start ff1&2 this comming thurs. currently i'm in the kalamazoo area. after that in the fall i plan to go through the medic program around the detroit area.

i plan to work on-call the 14 months i'm in that course and maybe as an emt as well. between now and the next almost 2 years i'll be looking into depts out of state. this way i'll have some FF experience and have my medic in the end. nationally licensed of course.

after that, hopefully i'll get a badge somewhere. not too picky on where i wanna work. just wanna be in some kind of city. doesnt have to be nyc but at least a decent sized city.

FYI, its not that i dont wanna be a medic i was just hoping i could get hired on and then go into it. thanks again boys

[CaptBob]

Tommy, sounds like a good workable plan. Just remember no matter what your credentials you still need to learn how to take a firefighter interview that is like no other.

"Captain Bob"

www.eatstress.com

[Bryan180]

tom, where did you do your emt at?

[tommygavin]

michigan. nationally licensed tho