Fire Safety is a joke

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Here is a good example of why we kill thousands more people each year as a result of fire than other industrialized nations. That reason is: fire safety is a joke. A total joke. Beavis and Butthead. Fire Marshal Bill. Now, Conan O'Brien.

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=6874

[mcaldwell]

The first time in 14 years he's heard the sound?

Apparently the "Talent" aren't required to be around for the Code required Fire Drills. :rolleyes:


Is this an out-take, or was it actually aired?

[BFDNJFF]

None of us know the fire safety procedure for this building. Should a whole high rise evacuate for an alarm on one floor ? Highly unlikely. He is not a fire inspector or even probably has any fire knowledge. Blame fire educators for lack of education.

Here is the thread on when Fox News had a similar situation.....

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=92747&highlight=fox+news

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

None of us know the fire safety procedure for this building. Should a whole high rise evacuate for an alarm on one floor ? Highly unlikely. He is not a fire inspector or even probably has any fire knowledge. Blame fire educators for lack of education.

Here is the thread on when Fox News had a similar situation.....

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=92747&highlight=fox+news

Your point is completely irrelevant. He made a joke out of the fact that a fire alarm was sounding. I partly blame ignorance of the media and of morons like this for the fact that people ignore fire alarms in the first place. I also blame the US fire service as a whole.

Does your FD tolerate the people in the building ignoring the alarms because they aren't fire inspectors? You have to admit, that was an idiotic statement.

[mcaldwell]

It's not about the lack of evacuation, of course many commercial buildings do not automatically evacuate.

It's about the sending the message that the alarm is a "Nuisance", and should be ignored, or "Ripped out of the wall".

The host (Conan) is an employee of the company, and should have known exactly what the alarm was, and given appropriate instruction to the crowd.

A little levity is fine, as are a few jokes while waiting for final instruction, but the message is not comedy.


Lets say for sake of arguement that there was a fire, and the instructions were ignored at risk or injury to any member of the public audience. Who do you think would be sued and possibly charged for the results.

[BFDNJFF]

Your point is completely irrelevant. He made a joke out of the fact that a fire alarm was sounding. I partly blame ignorance of the media and of morons like this for the fact that people ignore fire alarms in the first place. I also blame the US fire service as a whole.

Does your FD tolerate the people in the building ignoring the alarms because they aren't fire inspectors? You have to admit, that was an idiotic statement.


He is a comedian. Or did we all forget about that?

[coldfront]

He is a comedian. Or did we all forget about that?

Vaudeville comedian Eddie Foy ran to the footlights and tried to calm the crowd. "Everything is under control," he said just as a mass of burning debris fell at his feet at the The Iroquois Theatre.The Iroquois fire 602 casualties.

Conan O'Brien lack of concern for his fans was shameful.Their was no need to panic but to laugh and turn a fire alarm into a joke just shows a complete lack of concern for others.I bet Eddie Foy would have loved to had some early warning.

[frenchfireball]

usually when people hear a fire alarm,they go outside the building,no?i really hope they go outside!!!

[jonnyirons2]

Come to NYC where the Companies in Mid-town go to about 3000 class 3 alarms a year. No one even flinches. Its not from lack of education, its from complacency.

[frenchfireball]

Come to NYC where the Companies in Mid-town go to about 3000 class 3 alarms a year. No one even flinches. Its not from lack of education, its from complacency.

i know that false alarms are waste of time but who knows,one day,it will be fire alarm and then real fire.....and then, people will think:nah,just nothing.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

He is a comedian. Or did we all forget about that?

He also has an obligation to be responsible. Mocking the fire alarm sends a poor message-no matter which way you want to spin it. And as a member of the fire service, you should be concerned about the lack of attention people pay to fire alarms.

BTW< nice way to avoid my question.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Come to NYC where the Companies in Mid-town go to about 3000 class 3 alarms a year. No one even flinches. Its not from lack of education, its from complacency.

Of course it is. You're right. And why? Because of morons in the entertainment and media who create the attitude that it is ALWAYS a false alarm.

[voyager9]

Not arguing that Obrien's reaction was wrong, he should have taken it more seriously, but it just underscores that everyone gets complacent to alarm system activations: tenants and firefighters. That's mainly due to the overwhelming number of false alarms that occur with these systems. I don't know what the statistics are, but it has to be less than 1% is legitimate.
Some of the onus is on the manufacturers, contractors..etc. If their systems were so prone to false alarms then complacency wouldn't be as big an issue.

[firecat1]

I just spent a shift at a retirement facility and they called a drill. Most of the residents continued with their activities and even the staff only made a half-a$$ed effort at getting people outside. So dangerous an attitude!

[BFDNJFF]

Does your FD tolerate the people in the building ignoring the alarms because they aren't fire inspectors?

I wasn't avoiding this question George. I beleived you were being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

It depends on the situation. We also have no structures over 10 floors. I do not know there policy on how things are done where this took place. If you noticed there was a fire warden who came on and instructed them to what was going on. Obviously if there was a real situation real action would have been taken. My guess is he followed the procedure they are supposed to follow. Unless you just enjoy pandemonium and want a high rise evacuating into the streets. Thats a sure way of making a minor situation into something major.

[doughesson]

Is that what he's supposed to be?I find so little of his material to be funny.
Anyway,is there anyone with more experience than me who has NOT heard someone saying that they delayed getting out of a house when the smoke alarm went off because so many times it was "only food on the stove being burnt beyond recognition by Mom again"?
If the alarm goes off,you should start looking for an exit.Someone posted that he doesn't look for the one near the front of the building because that's where everyone else will be stampeding for and ripping each other's hair and arms out to evacuate.

He is a comedian. Or did we all forget about that?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I wasn't avoiding this question George. I beleived you were being sarcastic. :rolleyes:

It depends on the situation. We also have no structures over 10 floors. I do not know there policy on how things are done where this took place. If you noticed there was a fire warden who came on and instructed them to what was going on. Obviously if there was a real situation real action would have been taken. My guess is he followed the procedure they are supposed to follow. Unless you just enjoy pandemonium and want a high rise evacuating into the streets. Thats a sure way of making a minor situation into something major.

That's not an answer to my question. Try again.

So your telling me that the official Rockefeller Center policy is to get up in front of the audience and tell jokes while the fire alarm goes off?

Why don't you give up? You are arguing an untenable position.

[BFDNJFF]

That's not an answer to my question. Try again.

So your telling me that the official Rockefeller Center policy is to get up in front of the audience and tell jokes while the fire alarm goes off?

Why don't you give up? You are arguing an untenable position.

Yes I think I answered your question George. What would you like him to do ? Maybe you should go there and correct the problem. What I stated is my opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it. I will not lose any sleep either way. None of us know there procedures. Maybe he should have jumped up and made the people crazy. If you had it your way then I am sure you would have. I think people need to sometimes step outside the box and think as a non fire service person once in awhile.

[frenchfireball]

Yes I think I answered your question George. What would you like him to do ? Maybe you should go there and correct the problem. What I stated is my opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it. I will not lose any sleep either way. None of us know there procedures. Maybe he should have jumped up and made the people crazy. If you had it your way then I am sure you would have. I think people need to sometimes step outside the box and think as a non fire service person once in awhile.

well,i'm not firefighter,just civilian but when i'm in a building and i hear the fire alarm,i go outside,just a way of thinking.ok i grew up among POC firefighters.

but no offense to you and your post,just i wanted to write my point of view and way of thinking.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Yes I think I answered your question George. What would you like him to do ? Maybe you should go there and correct the problem. What I stated is my opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it. I will not lose any sleep either way. None of us know there procedures. Maybe he should have jumped up and made the people crazy. If you had it your way then I am sure you would have. I think people need to sometimes step outside the box and think as a non fire service person once in awhile.

So the only two options are tell jokes or panic? What about being a responsible adult and standing up and telling people that the sound they are hearing is a fire alarm and that, while the situation is being confirmed, they should gather their belongings and prepare for further instructions? No panic. No joke.

Approximately how much time do you have between an alarm activation and conditions when it is impossible to escape? Approximately how much time do you have following an alarm activation to give cogent instructions before people begin to panic? Approximately how much time does it take to exit a building such as this building in Rockefeller Center?

There is no need for me to go there. There are very stringent laws in NYC governing life safety in high rises. It would not have mattered who was there trying to talk some sense into that idiot. (Did you notice the concern on the producer's face and how pissed he was that O'Brien was making fun of him?). He was not going to evacuate and was intent to use the moment as a comedic interlude.

Since you won't answer my question, I can only assume that your FD does not require people to evacuate a building upon the activation of a fire alarm. That would be a great policy. I hope it is in writing to make it easier for the civil lawsuit to proceed.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

well,i'm not firefighter,just civilian but when i'm in a building and i hear the fire alarm,i go outside,just a way of thinking.ok i grew up among POC firefighters.

but no offense to you and your post,just i wanted to write my point of view and way of thinking.

Let me blow this up for you guys to see:

i'm not firefighter,just civilian but when i'm in a building and i hear the fire alarm,i go outside,just a way of thinking.ok i grew up among POC firefighters.

You need to remember this when he posts.

[DrParasite]

Since you won't answer my question, I can only assume that your FD does not require people to evacuate a building upon the activation of a fire alarm. That would be a great policy. I hope it is in writing to make it easier for the civil lawsuit to proceed.Well, New York City doesn't...... And I know that from first hand experience.

And Conan isn't funny, Leno is much funnier.

[BFDNJFF]

So the only two options are tell jokes or panic? What about being a responsible adult and standing up and telling people that the sound they are hearing is a fire alarm and that, while the situation is being confirmed, they should gather their belongings and prepare for further instructions? No panic. No joke.

Approximately how much time do you have between an alarm activation and conditions when it is impossible to escape? Approximately how much time do you have following an alarm activation to give cogent instructions before people begin to panic? Approximately how much time does it take to exit a building such as this building in Rockefeller Center?

There is no need for me to go there. There are very stringent laws in NYC governing life safety in high rises. It would not have mattered who was there trying to talk some sense into that idiot. (Did you notice the concern on the producer's face and how pissed he was that O'Brien was making fun of him?). He was not going to evacuate and was intent to use the moment as a comedic interlude.

Since you won't answer my question, I can only assume that your FD does not require people to evacuate a building upon the activation of a fire alarm. That would be a great policy. I hope it is in writing to make it easier for the civil lawsuit to proceed.


No not all of them..............Ever try and evacuate a senior citizen building? :rolleyes:

[BFDNJFF]

Well, New York City doesn't...... And I know that from first hand experience.

And Conan isn't funny, Leno is much funnier.


I am sure you are right.


I agree I like Leno better :D

[TurdFergeson]

Why are you surprised that people aren't taking the alarm seriously? Many FD's don't take them seriously. How are we suppose to expect the public to treat this as the "real deal" when many FD's continually send one rig emergency (sometimes just one rig non-emergency)? Why do so many dept's do that? Because they don't expect it to be the "real deal" either. As far as I'm concerned, the public is only following the lead of the fire service.

[frenchfireball]

Let me blow this up for you guys to see:

i'm not firefighter,just civilian but when i'm in a building and i hear the fire alarm,i go outside,just a way of thinking.ok i grew up among POC firefighters.

You need to remember this when he posts.


a problem with my post?i'm a she,lol.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

No not all of them..............Ever try and evacuate a senior citizen building? :rolleyes:

Yes, I have as a matter of fact. I was unaware that O'Brien was doing his show from a senior citizens complex. Your point is?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Why are you surprised that people aren't taking the alarm seriously? Many FD's don't take them seriously. How are we suppose to expect the public to treat this as the "real deal" when many FD's continually send one rig emergency (sometimes just one rig non-emergency)? Why do so many dept's do that? Because they don't expect it to be the "real deal" either. As far as I'm concerned, the public is only following the lead of the fire service.

You make a very vaild point.

[BFDNJFF]

Yes, I have as a matter of fact. I was unaware that O'Brien was doing his show from a senior citizens complex. Your point is?


I WAS ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION AGAIN GEORGE.

Let it go man you are going to have a coronary. Just agree to disagree.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I WAS ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION AGAIN GEORGE.

Let it go man you are going to have a coronary. Just agree to disagree.

I am simply asking questions. I am not the least bit agitated. I could agree to disagree if we were talking about something less important than life safety. A fire fighter with such a low regard for life safety systems and practices deeply concerns me. That is why I keep asking you questions you can't answer.

I'll try again. Your point is?

[MemphisE34a]

Why are you surprised that people aren't taking the alarm seriously? Many FD's don't take them seriously. How are we suppose to expect the public to treat this as the "real deal" when many FD's continually send one rig emergency (sometimes just one rig non-emergency)? Why do so many dept's do that? Because they don't expect it to be the "real deal" either. As far as I'm concerned, the public is only following the lead of the fire service.
You beat me to it!! That is exactly what I was going to say. Far too many fire departments have embraced the mentality that all fire alarms are false - including mine.

[BFDNJFF]

I am simply asking questions. I am not the least bit agitated. I could agree to disagree if we were talking about something less important than life safety. A fire fighter with such a low regard for life safety systems and practices deeply concerns me. That is why I keep asking you questions you can't answer.

I'll try again. Your point is?


How dare you try and degrade me ? Who do you think you are? You know nothing about me. To dare say I have low regard for life safety systems is asinine to say the least. Do not try and make yourself look all high and mighty by trying to put me down. I may have acted differently in this situation but I was not there and neither were you. I am not one to find someone guilty of something when I do not know all the facts of this situation. DO YOU KNOW THE POLICY THERE???? NO YOU DON"T. So don't assume you do. Just because the man didn't respond the way YOU think he should does not mean he is not as concerned about the situation.

As DR Parasite stated in NY THEY DON'T ALWAYS EVACUATE !

That should answer my question simply put.


You sir get over yourself and have a GREAT DAY !

[DeputyMarshal]

FWIW, fire alarms are not all necessarily intended to begin a building evacuation. They are intended to notify occupants of a potential fire condition somewhere in the building. In smaller buildings, the assumption is generally that occupants should evacuate although there's not necessarily any compulsion to do so.

As buildings get larger, assumptions change. In high-rise buildings, it's generally not considered necessary or desireable to evacuate the whole building for every unconfirmed fire alarm. Fire areas may be notified selectively and different areas may receive different instructions from others. Some floors may be advised to evacuate, some may be advised to stay put.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

How dare you try and degrade me ? Who do you think you are? You know nothing about me. To dare say I have low regard for life safety systems is asinine to say the least. Do not try and make yourself look all high and mighty by trying to put me down. I may have acted differently in this situation but I was not there and neither were you. I am not one to find someone guilty of something when I do not know all the facts of this situation. DO YOU KNOW THE POLICY THERE???? NO YOU DON"T. So don't assume you do. Just because the man didn't respond the way YOU think he should does not mean he is not as concerned about the situation.

As DR Parasite stated in NY THEY DON'T ALWAYS EVACUATE !

That should answer my question simply put.


You sir get over yourself and have a GREAT DAY !

I did not degrade you, I degraded your opinion. There is a vast difference.

This has zero to do with what they do in NYC. This has everything to do with a public figure having an irresponsible attitude towards life safety. Then, you defended this irresponsible attitude. Despite having been given several opportunities to do so, you have not displayed anything other than a cavalier attitude towards life safety. It's not me, dude, it's your words-or lack of your words-that do you in on this one.

This also has nothing to do with how I feel about myself. Although since you are interested, I feel quite good about myself, thank you.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

FWIW, fire alarms are not all necessarily intended to begin a building evacuation. They are intended to notify occupants of a potential fire condition somewhere in the building. In smaller buildings, the assumption is generally that occupants should evacuate although there's not necessarily any compulsion to do so.

As buildings get larger, assumptions change. In high-rise buildings, it's generally not considered necessary or desireable to evacuate the whole building for every unconfirmed fire alarm. Fire areas may be notified selectively and different areas may receive different instructions from others. Some floors may be advised to evacuate, some may be advised to stay put.

You're absolutely correct. I don't think anyone expected O'Brien to begin organizing an evacuation of the studio. But, by not joking, letting the people know what was going on and then preparing them for the possibility of evacuation, he would have assisted in avoiding a mass rush had a fire been discovered. That is a responsible, adult thing to do.

[BFDNJFF]

George I never disagreed with the fact he may be an ass. My argument was to the fact of evacuation. I see no need to evacuate or cause a panic for no reason. Obviously we agree on this

Your quote from the similar situation on the Fox New Situation


Two thoughts...

1. If you think the response described by Fred is wrong, I have a suggestion. Perhaps Fred could direct you to the volumes of regulations that govern the daily operation of a high-rise building in NYC. Then, perhaps he could direct you to the volumes of regulations that are in place to govern the construction of these buildings. Then, perhaps he could direct you to the FDNY procedures for responding to alarms in high-rises. After about a month of reading, you would probably end up understanding that they are doing exactly the right thing.

2. Shepard Smith (or however you spell it) is a God-blessed idiot. I have not watched him once since his pathetic display while standing on that overpass in New Orleans. He is an egocentric fool.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George I never disagreed with the fact he may be an ass. My argument was to the fact of evacuation. I see no need to evacuate or cause a panic for no reason. Obviously we agree on this

Your quote from the similar situation on the Fox New Situation

I have to ask again, your point is? I condemned the idiot media type who acted like an ass, just like this time.

The first response is being taken out of context. Someone was challenging Fred's knowledge of high rise response. I pointed out-just as I did on this thread-that Local Law 5 governs-very strictly-life safety in high rises.

BTW, I never said a word about evacuating the buiding. Not one word. You, on the other hand, dismissed his actions by stating that he was a comedian and had no fire knowledge, so it was OK. They are your words, pal.

Again, I ask...your point is?

[jonnyirons2]

30 rock is a 70 story building. Depending on how its wired it could be interconnected with numerous floors but in any case a fire safety director is on scene when ever the building is occupied. The alarm system also has the ability to use an annunciator to you guessed it announce the event of a fire if found. False alarms come in all the time so to evacuate everytime some ditz burns popcorn would be a total waste of productivity. Every floor is also required to have a fire warden who would be responsible to report a fire upon alarm activation.

Thats probably why you saw no movement on the set.

[nyckftbl]

Well, New York City doesn't...... And I know that from first hand experience.

And Conan isn't funny, Leno is much funnier.

Just curious, how did you manage to find the time to read over the NYC Building codes, the fire safety directors responsibilities in every building, and spend enough time in every multiple dwelling or commercial occupancy in NYC to make this comment? There are CERTAIN buildings in NYC, obviously mostly in Manhattan, that have strict policies about how and when to evacuate. Most times it would be a complete logistical nightmare to evacuate a 70 story building because of an alarm ringing on the 57th floor.

I have many buildings in my first due area that are required to evacuate when a fire alarm is sounded. You think they do this on their own, or could it be that the city requires it....

[ChiefKN]

Here is a good example of why we kill thousands more people each year as a result of fire than other industrialized nations. That reason is: fire safety is a joke. A total joke. Beavis and Butthead. Fire Marshal Bill. Now, Conan O'Brien.

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=6874

Well, I understand your sentiment.

I would hope they followed their procedure, whatever that may be.

I don't like Leno, Letterman is better.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

30 rock is a 70 story building. Depending on how its wired it could be interconnected with numerous floors but in any case a fire safety director is on scene when ever the building is occupied. The alarm system also has the ability to use an annunciator to you guessed it announce the event of a fire if found. False alarms come in all the time so to evacuate everytime some ditz burns popcorn would be a total waste of productivity. Every floor is also required to have a fire warden who would be responsible to report a fire upon alarm activation.

Thats probably why you saw no movement on the set.

You're right. That is why I wouldn't expect an evacuation. And there was movement on the set. The producer was very anxious. But one of that fire safety director's goals is to make sure people have accurat information and are aware of what they are supposed to do in the event that there is an actual fire. In this case, that effort was thwarted by some bufoon who tried to capitalize on it as a bit.

[lexfd5]

You're right. That is why I wouldn't expect an evacuation. And there was movement on the set. The producer was very anxious. But one of that fire safety director's goals is to make sure people have accurat information and are aware of what they are supposed to do in the event that there is an actual fire. In this case, that effort was thwarted by some bufoon who tried to capitalize on it as a bit.

George,

Perhaps he saw some anxiety in the audience and kept them calm until the proper information could be given. We don't know. I'd rather evacuate calm crowd than a mob running for the doors. What's the first thing we tell anyone that is trapped or evacuating from a structure...stay calm.

[hwoods]

I looked at the Video, and noticed that there was an option that allows viewers to make comments. I had a few........ ;) ;)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George,

Perhaps he saw some anxiety in the audience and kept them calm until the proper information could be given. We don't know. I'd rather evacuate calm crowd than a mob running for the doors. What's the first thing we tell anyone that is trapped or evacuating from a structure...stay calm.

Did you look at the video?

[Dave1983]

Just another example of the media sending the wrong message.

Think about it. Why do by-standards always want to pull people out of cars in MVCs? Because the car is going to blow up. They always do on TV. We know thats not the correct action. We think protecting the c-spine. But the general public thinks MVC=explosion.

How about sprinklers? Cost aside, most people think that when 1 head activates, they all do. They see it all the time on TV. Why would you want something like that in your house?

Too many people in this country think that whatever they see/read in the media is 100% accurate. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[jonnyirons2]

Unless you have worked in an office building in Manhattan dont bother to comment. Any knowledge you can draw upon is not pertinent. As we say in the fire dept to guys that came from other places before here, it don't count!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Unless you have worked in an office building in Manhattan dont bother to comment. Any knowledge you can draw upon is not pertinent. As we say in the fire dept to guys that came from other places before here, it don't count!

Great attitude, pal. You even jump people's ass if they agree with you. You must be a real joy to have in the firehouse. A real mentor to the young guys.

[HotTrotter]

Unless you have worked in an office building in Manhattan dont bother to comment. Any knowledge you can draw upon is not pertinent. As we say in the fire dept to guys that came from other places before here, it don't count!

No Kidding. How are the high rises in Manhattan any different from the ones in the rest of the world?:rolleyes: I work on the 14th floor, just not in Manhattan. And we do the same thing. Too many alarm system just aren't that reliable or dependable. The stupid thing is always going off, only to find out there is nothing going on. It will continue to be a problem until the industry comes up with National Standards that work and provide for reliable and accurate alarm systems. That means they don't go off when someone burns a slice of toast.

[Dave1983]

That means they don't go off when someone burns a slice of toast.


Burnt toast = smoke = smoke detector goes off. Thats how they work. Perhaps the problem is the moron who allows the toast to burn. Fire alarms cant fix stupid.

[Resq14]

Fire alarms cant fix stupid.

If only they could...

[jonnyirons2]

Well it seems that Curious George AKA the monkey fails to notice the big picture once again! So let me explain it in easier terms, better yet more thoroughly. When you work in an area that has the most expensive sq foot price in the United States for commercial space they tend to pack em in pretty tight here. Because they pack them in so tight you could expect to have 75-100 people per floor depending on the size of the building. Try and evacuate 75-100 people per floor as opposed to the 30-50 people per floor in podunk Iowa, then multiply it by 30-50 floors, oh yeah try and get all these fat morons to take the stairs! Now do you see the complexity? Why do you think it took some people a few HOURS to evacuate the WTC back in 93? This isnt like a fire drill in High School, this is a serious cost to the employer, hence the fire wardens and safety directors. NYC buildings are in a class of their own and in many instances are the model that others are based off of.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Well it seems that Curious George AKA the monkey fails to notice the big picture once again! So let me explain it in easier terms, better yet more thoroughly. When you work in an area that has the most expensive sq foot price in the United States for commercial space they tend to pack em in pretty tight here. Because they pack them in so tight you could expect to have 75-100 people per floor depending on the size of the building. Try and evacuate 75-100 people per floor as opposed to the 30-50 people per floor in podunk Iowa, then multiply it by 30-50 floors, oh yeah try and get all these fat morons to take the stairs! Now do you see the complexity? Why do you think it took some people a few HOURS to evacuate the WTC back in 93? This isnt like a fire drill in High School, this is a serious cost to the employer, hence the fire wardens and safety directors. NYC buildings are in a class of their own and in many instances are the model that others are based off of.

This is where your foolishness shines through best. With the exception of the monkey thing (whatever) I agree with everything you just wroye. In my last post, I agreed with you. But, apparently, because I don't work as a FF in Manhattan, in your tiny little world, I am not permitted to have an opinion. I never once stated that an evacuation was in order. I never once claimed to be an expert on high rise fires. But I do have knowledge of what fire safety directors and fire wardens do and used that as my basis for this thread-including being in agreement with you.

But your attitude is a cancer. Your attitude would be a cancer in any firehouse in this country. You may be the best fire fighter on the job in terms of skill and knowledge. But your atittude is worthless.

[MalahatTwo7]

Was the man born a moron or was this something that he's had to work at to achieve? I run into this same problem everytime we have a fire drill in the Embassy because some Office Weenies think that their work is too important to leave their office "for a stupid fire drill". They usually move their asses when I tell them that as the Floor Fire Warden its my responsibility to ensure that the floor is cleared. Then I tell them that I will enjoy very much telling their NOK how their Father/Mother etc was a moron who refused to leave the building because he/she thought it was a "stupid fire drill" that turned bad. "Oh, and that I will be sure to tell the FD that there is some DORK on the 4th floor who refused to leave because his work was more important than leaving the building." That last bit usually gets their attention, and on one or two occasions got me a "speical interivew" to disuss how I should learn to be more "Politically Correct" when speaking with some of these folks. My response back is to say that these are likely going to be the same people who truly panic in a real situation and that this same person is likely to get somone else seriously injured as a result. There is usually more to the conversation but ... anyhow. I mostly get the point across.

George, I agree with your original comments.

[doughesson]

You'd think after Sept 11,when people heard an announcement AFTER the planes hit the WTC that "It's nothing to worry about,Employees can return to their work"or words to that effect that when any alarm goes off people would want to leave the building the alarms are sounding in.
Once the warden confirmed it's a valid alarm,ushers should have started opening doors and someone should have told O'Brien to end his routine and go into"responsible adult"mode.


Every floor is also required to have a fire warden who would be responsible to report a fire upon alarm activation.

Thats probably why you saw no movement on the set.

[Higby916]

I thought the guy in the blue shirt said they were testing... as in testing the system. A drill would have likely been called a drill and an alarm would likely have been called an alarm. I'm not saying it's right that he made a joke about it and just sat there, but in the first seconds I am very sure I heard the word "test". Just a thought.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

You'd think after Sept 11,when people heard an announcement AFTER the planes hit the WTC that "It's nothing to worry about,Employees can return to their work"or words to that effect that when any alarm goes off people would want to leave the building the alarms are sounding in.
Once the warden confirmed it's a valid alarm,ushers should have started opening doors and someone should have told O'Brien to end his routine and go into"responsible adult"mode.

SHUT UP! You are in Memphis, not Manhattan. You are NOT allowed to comment here unless you have worked in Manhattan. Cancer Johnny said so. If you do it again, you will be reported to the WT.

[nyckftbl]

SHUT UP! You are in Memphis, not Manhattan. You are NOT allowed to comment here unless you have worked in Manhattan. Cancer Johnny said so. If you do it again, you will be reported to the WT.

All sarcasm aside, I know you dont agree that everyone should be getting up and ushers should have opened the doors. I know you understand how most buildings in NYC work, and opening up the doors could have invited some panic (and more likely, violate protocols set up for most fireproof commercial occupancies). We dont know nearly enough about what the fire warden or fire safety director knew to make comments as such.

[Bones42]

I'm sure they evacuate the Sears tower in Chicago every time there is an alarm sounding. After all, they don't know what it's like to be in a "real" high rise.

[nyckftbl]

You'd think after Sept 11,when people heard an announcement AFTER the planes hit the WTC that "It's nothing to worry about,Employees can return to their work"or words to that effect that when any alarm goes off people would want to leave the building the alarms are sounding in.
Once the warden confirmed it's a valid alarm,ushers should have started opening doors and someone should have told O'Brien to end his routine and go into"responsible adult"mode.

The announcements were made after 1 plane hit, not planeS. Under normal circumstances (ie, not a terrorist attack), would you want 20,000 more people attempting to evacuate after a fire broke out in an equally enormous occupancy next door? Its comparing apples to oranges.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

All sarcasm aside, I know you dont agree that everyone should be getting up and ushers should have opened the doors. I know you understand how most buildings in NYC work, and opening up the doors could have invited some panic (and more likely, violate protocols set up for most fireproof commercial occupancies). We dont know nearly enough about what the fire warden or fire safety director knew to make comments as such.

But that's not the point. I do not give a damn what the fire safety director knew. This whole thread is about the attitude and conduct of a major (arguably) figure acting like a fire alarm is akin to a romp at the circus. The fire safety director certainly was not sharing info with that idiot.

[nyckftbl]

But that's not the point. I do not give a damn what the fire safety director knew. This whole thread is about the attitude and conduct of a major (arguably) figure acting like a fire alarm is akin to a romp at the circus. The fire safety director certainly was not sharing info with that idiot.

I am in complete agreement with you! My comments were only in reference to what some people seem to think should have happened, which is why (Im assuming) Johnny made his posts. There are some who have no idea what a fire safety director or floor fire warden is, and that everyone should have evacuated because the alarm went off. That is the point, because the fact is, the two arguments dont necessarily go hand in hand. Even if it was a "valid alarm"...many places only have alarms that sound through the entire building, and it is up to the fire safety director or fire wardens on who should evacuate and who should be defending in place. That shouldnt get lost in the argument, and definitely shouldnt get lumped into the fact that this idiot did what he did.

The conduct of the people on this show was a disgrace, and in my short time and little experience, EVERYONE is at fault, from the city, to the FD, and the especially the idiots who forgot how to act when an alarm sounds.

[ehs7554]

Why are you surprised that people aren't taking the alarm seriously? Many FD's don't take them seriously. How are we suppose to expect the public to treat this as the "real deal" when many FD's continually send one rig emergency (sometimes just one rig non-emergency)? Why do so many dept's do that? Because they don't expect it to be the "real deal" either. As far as I'm concerned, the public is only following the lead of the fire service.

This is the best responce to a forum topic in a long time. I am suprised someone hasn't tried to argue with you on this. Oh yeah...they can't because they know you are right. Good job!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I am in complete agreement with you! My comments were only in reference to what some people seem to think should have happened, which is why (Im assuming) Johnny made his posts. There are some who have no idea what a fire safety director or floor fire warden is, and that everyone should have evacuated because the alarm went off. That is the point, because the fact is, the two arguments dont necessarily go hand in hand. Even if it was a "valid alarm"...many places only have alarms that sound through the entire building, and it is up to the fire safety director or fire wardens on who should evacuate and who should be defending in place. That shouldnt get lost in the argument, and definitely shouldnt get lumped into the fact that this idiot did what he did.

The conduct of the people on this show was a disgrace, and in my short time and little experience, EVERYONE is at fault, from the city, to the FD, and the especially the idiots who forgot how to act when an alarm sounds.

I have been castigated on here before because of my advocacy of the shelter-in-place approach. Not only for high-rise fires, but also for schools and medical facilities. Glad to see we are in agreement.

It is also amazing how much responsibility a fire safety director actually has. It is way more than putting on an arm band and blowing a whistle.

Glad to see I am in agreement with at least one of you gyus.

[HotTrotter]

Burnt toast = smoke = smoke detector goes off. Thats how they work. Perhaps the problem is the moron who allows the toast to burn. Fire alarms cant fix stupid.

And there in lies the problem. How about developing fire detectors instead. I've set off smoke detectors cooking a burger on the stove. But here is the truly sad part. I had several battery operated smoke detectors in my house. I'm sitting there one night and notice that something isn't right around the fireplace. A quick look tells me the chase (it's outside the main house) is on fire. After I call 911 I open the wall to throw some water on it, I can hear the guys are enroute. As I'm running around filling the house with smoke I realize the smoke detectors aren't going off. Only after it is so smokey you can't see do the stupid things go off. It was then and there that I realized what a terrible device these things really are. These weren't very old either, 5 to 10 years tops. They would go off when there was no fire and didn't go off when there was a fire...go figure.

[HotTrotter]

You'd think after Sept 11,when people heard an announcement AFTER the planes hit the WTC that "It's nothing to worry about,Employees can return to their work"or words to that effect that when any alarm goes off people would want to leave the building the alarms are sounding in.
Once the warden confirmed it's a valid alarm,ushers should have started opening doors and someone should have told O'Brien to end his routine and go into"responsible adult"mode.

You would think that now wouldn't you? Ever wonder how many people died that wouldn't have if they hadn't been told to return to their desk? :(

[jonnyirons2]

My buddy was in Tower 1 when the planes hit. PA made an annoucenment for everyone to stay put. Luckily for them the office manager was there in 93 and knew the clusterf%^k that would ensue. They got out, had they not, the second plane would have replaced the desks they were sitting in. And no one holds open doors, they SHOULD be interconnected to the fire alarm and close upon activation. Right monkey boy?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

And there in lies the problem. How about developing fire detectors instead. I've set off smoke detectors cooking a burger on the stove. But here is the truly sad part. I had several battery operated smoke detectors in my house. I'm sitting there one night and notice that something isn't right around the fireplace. A quick look tells me the chase (it's outside the main house) is on fire. After I call 911 I open the wall to throw some water on it, I can hear the guys are enroute. As I'm running around filling the house with smoke I realize the smoke detectors aren't going off. Only after it is so smokey you can't see do the stupid things go off. It was then and there that I realized what a terrible device these things really are. These weren't very old either, 5 to 10 years tops. They would go off when there was no fire and didn't go off when there was a fire...go figure.

What an innovator! Flame detectors. Who would have ever thought of it? Do you think we have the technology?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

My buddy was in Tower 1 when the planes hit. PA made an annoucenment for everyone to stay put. Luckily for them the office manager was there in 93 and knew the clusterf%^k that would ensue. They got out, had they not, the second plane would have replaced the desks they were sitting in. And no one holds open doors, they SHOULD be interconnected to the fire alarm and close upon activation. Right monkey boy?

I absolutely agree, Cancer.

[Dickey]

It really is a joke. Total attitude of annoyance instead of life safety. Just look at designs. In England (and elsewhere too) EXIT signs are near the floor where you should be instead of up at the ceiling.

Just like the tornado sirens. Everyone thinks that they are a total annoyance too. Or they think the Taliban is riding into town and need to take shelter!
:rolleyes:

[DeputyMarshal]

It really is a joke. Total attitude of annoyance instead of life safety. Just look at designs. In England (and elsewhere too) EXIT signs are near the floor where you should be instead of up at the ceiling.

FWIW, the codes have dabbled in low level exit signs in certain occupancies. The concensus is that they aren't as effective in practice as one might think.

The jury is still out on this one.

[DianeC]

I was away and am just catching up -- does anyone have a working link? Seems the few I've found are no longer available...Go figure. :rolleyes:

[DDD123]

George the life safety crusader is at it again. His expertise is unquestionable, and we have much to learn from him. His opinions on the short comings of the U.S fire service and our lackadaisical attitude toward fire safety have inspired me to propose to my fire administration that we cut the entire fire marshal division… After all Fire safety is a joke! Keep up the good work Monday morning quarterbacking George!!!

[DocVBFDE14]

George the life safety crusader is at it again. His expertise is unquestionable, and we have much to learn from him. His opinions on the short comings of the U.S fire service and our lackadaisical attitude toward fire safety have inspired me to propose to my fire administration that we cut the entire fire marshal division… After all Fire safety is a joke! Keep up the good work Monday morning quarterbacking George!!!


Why does it bother you so? Maybe just maybe he and the poster who stated:

"Originally Posted by TurdFergeson
Why are you surprised that people aren't taking the alarm seriously? Many FD's don't take them seriously. How are we suppose to expect the public to treat this as the "real deal" when many FD's continually send one rig emergency (sometimes just one rig non-emergency)? Why do so many dept's do that? Because they don't expect it to be the "real deal" either. As far as I'm concerned, the public is only following the lead of the fire service."

are right?

Do I personally care what the host did? No. Myself nor my family were in attendence. However the image it portrays is wrong. I understand he is a comedian, I understand making people laugh is his job. However there is a time and place for everything.

The reason it was treated like a joke is beacuse the attitude of many firefighters throughout the country treat fire alarms as a joke. New York City is different. The response there is different and the attitude is different. However other places are not lucky enough to have an administration that takes fire alarms with that type of seriousness.

Tell me something, when responding to a fire alarm do you:
exit the truck dressed and ready to work?
with an SCBA on?
with your tools?
with any hi rise packs you might require?
do you appear to the people who just had to leave their hotel room or event they just spent money on to see, that you are ready to work and combat any problem encountered?

Or do you:
exit the truck in just a jacket or pants?
exit the truck with nothing in your hands?
do the people who may have been forced to leave their hotel room, or the event they just spent money on see you and wonder why they are more ready than you are?

I know my own personal answers. I know that every officer I have worked for and senior firefighter I've worked with would not tolerate any of the latter answers.

[ChicagoFF]

Unless you have worked in an office building in Manhattan dont bother to comment. Any knowledge you can draw upon is not pertinent. As we say in the fire dept to guys that came from other places before here, it don't count!You are right - it is different there. Your buildings are much shorter than ours! :p

[DDD123]

How is sending one rig to a alarm activation, “the fire department not taking an alarm seriously?" I think in certain situations… it’s responsible. When you have a building that the alarms go off in numerous times a day.. That is exactly what should be done. Let me ask you this… Out side of heart attacks what is the leading cause of firefighter deaths and injuries?? Apparatus accidents maybe?? So if you are responding to a building that has multiple alarm activation in a day, (all of which are false) you should send a full compliment of apparatus to every alarm, knowing the dangers that the firefighters face in their response? Second question… In the U.S. outside of 9-11. How many multiple death fires have there been in a sprinklered high rise building. Like Jonnyirons2 mentioned. There are probably numerous fire protection systems in place on the set of this show as well as fire marshals on fire watch. NYC is not new to the concept of fire protection in high-rise buildings. How many people died the night the Conain O’brien show was filmed?? That’s why it bothers me so much… people need to lighten up, it was a comedian making jokes!! Stop the presses!!

[frenchfireball]

the title of the thread is "fire safety is a joke",and for me it is not a joke,you can kick my "frenchie "ass for that,or want to cut my head,i do not care.even if it is difficult to have safety in fire service,it is important to have some for men and women in fire service and civilians.





ps:i know,i'm not firefighter and my point of view can appear "naive" for you.but fire safety will always be an important "fight" for firefighters in many different countries.

and yeah,i knew that the title was sarcastic but i wanted to write my point of view.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George the life safety crusader is at it again. His expertise is unquestionable, and we have much to learn from him. His opinions on the short comings of the U.S fire service and our lackadaisical attitude toward fire safety have inspired me to propose to my fire administration that we cut the entire fire marshal division… After all Fire safety is a joke! Keep up the good work Monday morning quarterbacking George!!!

There was no Monday Morning quarterbacking involved. And, if what you posted is what you have taken away from this discussion, than you are a sad, sad, case.

[HotTrotter]

What an innovator! Flame detectors. Who would have ever thought of it? Do you think we have the technology?

I believe that the technology exists to build a more reliable fire detector. Smoke sensors, temperature sensors, Oxygen sensors, and CO2 sensors could be incorporated into a smart system to better detect the presence of fire.

[ChiefKN]

I believe that the technology exists to build a more reliable fire detector. Smoke sensors, temperature sensors, Oxygen sensors, and CO2 sensors could be incorporated into a smart system to better detect the presence of fire.

Great, will it cost $8, like the smoke detectors do now?

[CaptainGonzo]

How is sending one rig to a alarm activation, “the fire department not taking an alarm seriously?" I think in certain situations… it’s responsible. When you have a building that the alarms go off in numerous times a day.. That is exactly what should be done. Let me ask you this… Out side of heart attacks what is the leading cause of firefighter deaths and injuries?? Apparatus accidents maybe?? So if you are responding to a building that has multiple alarm activation in a day, (all of which are false) you should send a full compliment of apparatus to every alarm, knowing the dangers that the firefighters face in their response? Second question… In the U.S. outside of 9-11. How many multiple death fires have there been in a sprinklered high rise building. Like Jonnyirons2 mentioned. There are probably numerous fire protection systems in place on the set of this show as well as fire marshals on fire watch. NYC is not new to the concept of fire protection in high-rise buildings. How many people died the night the Conain O’brien show was filmed?? That’s why it bothers me so much… people need to lighten up, it was a comedian making jokes!! Stop the presses!!

The Titanic was reported to be "unsinkable"... and we all know how that turned out...

[DocVBFDE14]

How is sending one rig to a alarm activation, “the fire department not taking an alarm seriously?" I think in certain situations… it’s responsible.

So if you are responding to a building that has multiple alarm activation in a day, (all of which are false) you should send a full compliment of apparatus to every alarm, knowing the dangers that the firefighters face in their response?

In the U.S. outside of 9-11. How many multiple death fires have there been in a sprinklered high rise building.


1. You are right. Sending one engine is responsible, until that time that unit pulls up to an actual fire and now help is 'x' amount of time away :rolleyes:

2. Again you are right. I purpose that due to the dangers of responding that from now on, all fire department personnel throughout the United States NOT leave the bay until someone else has confirmed that there is an emergency. :rolleyes:

3. You are on a roll. I agree with everything you have typed. Since there have been no multiple deaths, we should not even leave the station.

[DDD123]

The question remains and the statement stands. How many people died the night the Conan O’brien show was filmed? People need to lighten up!!!

[storckthedork]

Great, will it cost $8, like the smoke detectors do now?

Probably not. But when it comes to the safety of you and your family, don't you think it may be worth spending the additional money for a more reliable system, however much it may cost (within reason)?

[DeputyMarshal]

Probably not. But when it comes to the safety of you and your family, don't you think it may be worth spending the additional money for a more reliable system, however much it may cost (within reason)?

Modern smoke detectors are quite reliable now. What's the issue?

[ChiefKN]

Probably not. But when it comes to the safety of you and your family, don't you think it may be worth spending the additional money for a more reliable system, however much it may cost (within reason)?

But the system I have works great. I haven't heard that this will work better, simply that it won't alarm for burned food.

FYI, I have central station in my house and have never had an alarm reach the point of having the fire department respond.

And this was not really about residential. The question was geared towards commercial.

This could be carried to the extreme. Wouldn't it be better to have a fire engine on every street. Since money is no object.

[storckthedork]

But the system I have works great. I haven't heard that this will work better, simply that it won't alarm for burned food.

FYI, I have central station in my house and have never had an alarm reach the point of having the fire department respond.

And this was not really about residential. The question was geared towards commercial.

This could be carried to the extreme. Wouldn't it be better to have a fire engine on every street. Since money is no object.

I apologize if my comments came across as a personal statement to you. When I said "you" and "your family" I meant the public in general. Obviously someone with fire service background such as you or myself realizes the benefits (and limitations) of certain fire prevention systems.

You're right, this particular topic is related to the commercial aspect of fire prevention, as opposed to residential, and yes, this idea could be carried to the extreme, which is why I say "within reason", because obviously, money is a legitimate concern and certain ideas aren't financially possible.

[ChiefKN]

I apologize if my comments came across as a personal statement to you. When I said "you" and "your family" I meant the public in general. Obviously someone with fire service background such as you or myself realizes the benefits (and limitations) of certain fire prevention systems.

You're right, this particular topic is related to the commercial aspect of fire prevention, as opposed to residential, and yes, this idea could be carried to the extreme, which is why I say "within reason", because obviously, money is a legitimate concern and certain ideas aren't financially possible.

It's so refreshing to actually have a reasonable debate. I understand your point, that for the individual homeowner, where people are sleeping, it's so critical that the extra cost could well be worth it.

But we know how it is in the commercial building world. They pinch the buffalo off the nickel. Sometimes in indefensible ways. It's very rare that a building has more than what is required.

Oh, and you don't have to apologize to me. I was not offended in anyway.

Thanks though.

[HotTrotter]

Great, will it cost $8, like the smoke detectors do now?

Nope. You get what you pay for. And the $8 smoke detector is becoming a thing of the past. The newer ones that must be in new construction and wired together cost a little bit more than that. Then again, those $8 smoke detectors only detect smoke, not fire.

[Remthedays]

Nope. You get what you pay for. And the $8 smoke detector is becoming a thing of the past. The newer ones that must be in new construction and wired together cost a little bit more than that. Then again, those $8 smoke detectors only detect smoke, not fire.

True, but I believe the old saying of "Where there is Smoke there is Fire" still holds true in most cases. So if the smoke detecters go off I , guees what? assume there is fire and take appropriate action. This pertains to residential. As far as commercial our responce is One engine responding emergency with one or two others responding non emergency.

T.J.

[Higby916]

The question remains and the statement stands. How many people died the night the Conan O’brien show was filmed? People need to lighten up!!!

In one week our department went to a highrise condo 8 times (on two shifts) within three days to alarms caused by a faulty generator and a host of other problems. On the fourth day we get a call to the same highrise which turns out to be a structure fire on the 9th floor and because we responded as we always would, with the appropriate compliment of personell, the fire was contained, out quickly and no neighbours were displaced.

Downgrading because someone called wolf a few times is a recipe for disaster.

[ChiefKN]

In one week our department went to a high rise condo 8 times (on two shifts) within three days to alarms caused by a faulty generator and a host of other problems. On the fourth day we get a call to the same high rise which turns out to be a structure fire on the 9th floor and because we responded as we always would, with the appropriate compliment of personnel, the fire was contained, out quickly and no neighbours were displaced.

Downgrading because someone called wolf a few times is a recipe for disaster.

Ever vigilant!

It's because of the publics complacency that we should not downgrade.

Although, I will admit that I notice a distinct difference in attitude/vigilance from our members for an alarm then a reported fire.

Not really sure how to correct that.

[HotTrotter]

True, but I believe the old saying of "Where there is Smoke there is Fire" still holds true in most cases. So if the smoke detecters go off I , guees what? assume there is fire and take appropriate action. This pertains to residential. As far as commercial our responce is One engine responding emergency with one or two others responding non emergency.

T.J.

But there is smoke from fire, and smoke from other things. Burning popcorn in the microwave, Exhaust fumes or smoke coming in from outside. Cooking on the stove. And around here we have people with fireplaces and wood stoves, they often send smoke into the house. Not all smoke means there is a fire.

[HotTrotter]

In one week our department went to a highrise condo 8 times (on two shifts) within three days to alarms caused by a faulty generator and a host of other problems. On the fourth day we get a call to the same highrise which turns out to be a structure fire on the 9th floor and because we responded as we always would, with the appropriate compliment of personell, the fire was contained, out quickly and no neighbours were displaced.

Downgrading because someone called wolf a few times is a recipe for disaster.

We have a department that has been called to an apartment complex over 100 times this year. It is full of college kids as well. It's hard to maintain a vigilance when that happens. I know they put an alarm system in our local elementary school and we were getting called all the time. I got to the point where guys would stop showing for the alarm, if it was real there wold be a call for more manpower. They eventually got the bugs worked out, now we rarely go. It's hard to stop what you are doing to go reset an alarm system. So for sure, false alarms will generate a certain amount of complacency.

[Rescue101]

DDD123,A neighboring dept had just that scenerio.Multiple "false"alarms in a commercial structure.They DID what you said,downgraded the response.On either the 3rd or 4th trip with a SINGLE Engine,they found a SERIOUS fire running overhead in the downstairs hallway.Things didn't go particularly well and some serious litigation followed involving the FD.Sorry,but alarms will get the standard 2 and 1. T.C.

[storckthedork]

Modern smoke detectors are quite reliable now. What's the issue?


Modern smoke detectors are quite reliable for what they are designed: detecting smoke. Had it not been for my parents teaching when I was younger, I probably would have associated the activated smoke detector with burning food in the kitchen. I won't go any further, as HotTrotter has basically already stated everything I was thinking :)

Edit: I realize that the original topic was regarding an incident (or incidents) in a commercial, high-rise structure. However, the habits one learns at home generally have a way of showing themselves outside of ones place of residence.

[DeputyMarshal]

Modern smoke detectors are quite reliable for what they are designed: detecting smoke. Had it not been for my parents teaching when I was younger, I probably would have associated the activated smoke detector with burning food in the kitchen. I won't go any further, as HotTrotter has basically already stated everything I was thinking :)

I'm still wondering what the issue is. Smoke in a house almost always indicates that something is wrong. A smoke detector that activates for burnt food is operating as intended: no sensor in the world can distinguish between smoke from burnt food that someone is already reacting to appropriately and burnt food that's on it's way to becoming a kitchen fire.

Remember, a smoke detector activation from "burnt food" is not a "false alarm" call.

(FYI, I don't read Trotts' blathering. He lost too much credibility too long ago to even bother anymore.)

[Higby916]

We have a department that has been called to an apartment complex over 100 times this year. It is full of college kids as well. It's hard to maintain a vigilance when that happens. I know they put an alarm system in our local elementary school and we were getting called all the time. I got to the point where guys would stop showing for the alarm, if it was real there wold be a call for more manpower. They eventually got the bugs worked out, now we rarely go. It's hard to stop what you are doing to go reset an alarm system. So for sure, false alarms will generate a certain amount of complacency.

That's really sad to hear. We also respond to calls at two universities, constantly. And, as mentioned earlier, we are on the rigs and responding. Until it is a confirmed false alarm, we respond priority one. Every emergency deserves the same respect. Are these guys who don't show up only interested in the so-called "glory of a fire" or are they interested in being firefighters? Every call has the potential of being more than originally expected.
As for the university students, the fourth malicious pull station alert one night had the entire residence evacuated, in the rain, 12 degrees (celcius) and 30-40 minutes to conduct a "full search". We haven't run back to that university since. Public Education can take on many forms, have the personell on scene to be able to make those calls. I hope something tragic doesn't happen because the call started as "just alarms" and you have too little personell to complete the necessary tasks.

PS - Complacency Kills!

[doughesson]

Just like the tornado sirens. Everyone thinks that they are a total annoyance too. Or they think the Taliban is riding into town and need to take shelter!
:rolleyes:
Growing up in the 60s and 70s,the civil defense sirens would sound at 12 noon on Saturday to make sure the gasoline powered ones would start if needed.
Mom always said"If the Russians are going to attack,they should do it at noon on Saturday because no one would notice."

[doughesson]

SHUT UP! You are in Memphis, not Manhattan. You are NOT allowed to comment here unless you have worked in Manhattan. Cancer Johnny said so. If you do it again, you will be reported to the WT.


Memphis has some tall buildings.Clark Tower is at least 60 stories tall.
My former hometown of Paducah Ky has a 20 story retirement residential building that my former department was mutual aid to.
I'm scared of heights so I dreaded getting tapped out to that one unless I knew I'd be going inside the building and not scaling it like Spidey or Cancer Johnny.I ain't that froggy.

[HotTrotter]

That's really sad to hear. We also respond to calls at two universities, constantly. And, as mentioned earlier, we are on the rigs and responding. Until it is a confirmed false alarm, we respond priority one. Every emergency deserves the same respect. Are these guys who don't show up only interested in the so-called "glory of a fire" or are they interested in being firefighters? Every call has the potential of being more than originally expected.
As for the university students, the fourth malicious pull station alert one night had the entire residence evacuated, in the rain, 12 degrees (celcius) and 30-40 minutes to conduct a "full search". We haven't run back to that university since. Public Education can take on many forms, have the personell on scene to be able to make those calls. I hope something tragic doesn't happen because the call started as "just alarms" and you have too little personell to complete the necessary tasks.

PS - Complacency Kills!

I think the problem comes form rushing to the fire house, getting the rigs enroute, getting to the scene, standing around for 10 to 20 minutes waiting for the "responsible" to show, and then going home. It typically ends up being a waste of an hour of time. It's sad but true.

[ChiefKN]

I think the problem comes form rushing to the fire house, getting the rigs enroute, getting to the scene, standing around for 10 to 20 minutes waiting for the "responsible" to show, and then going home. It typically ends up being a waste of an hour of time. It's sad but true.

Then change your sops, work on ways to speed the investigation.

The Knox system is a great way to address the problem of waiting for a keyholder.

We are redrafting our SOP to give some guidelines to how we will investigate alarms. When we take a door (or not), when we will wait for a keyholder and for how long.

[Bones42]

Routinely went to elementary school for alarms that activated with no fire. Then one day, it was a fire.

Routinely went to an assisted living residence for alarms that activated with no fire.
Then one day, it was a fire and 11 people died.


Damn straight we respond. It's not a fire until we determine that.

[HotTrotter]

We have had them as well. Actually one was in the Elementary school after a power outage. The other was a health care outreach center. In both cases, they sent one truck to the scene, eyes rolling in heads, you know the routine. It's the ole boy who cried wolf syndrome. As people we get complacent, fall into routines and develop bad habits. I guess that is one reason I think people need to retake the FF1 and FF2 stuff on a regular basis. You forget things and fall into bad habits. :(

[DeputyMarshal]

Routinely went to elementary school for alarms that activated with no fire...
Routinely went to an assisted living residence for alarms that activated with no fire...

FWIW, both of these occupancies will always have professional staff on hand while occupied. I would expect their emergency plans and your SOPs to have provisions for that staff to report on conditions promptly after an alarm activation.

While I agree that the alarm isn't over until we say it's over, a report from competant staff is certainly adequate to slow down at least a portion of the inbound response.

[HotTrotter]

FWIW, both of these occupancies will always have professional staff on hand while occupied. I would expect their emergency plans and your SOPs to have provisions for that staff to report on conditions promptly after an alarm activation.

While I agree that the alarm isn't over until we say it's over, a report from competant staff is certainly adequate to slow down at least a portion of the inbound response.

That's a big 4-10 good buddy!! ;)

[Bones42]

Actually, they are to evacuate the building and allow the FD to investigate the alarm. I don't really want untrained people (teachers, secretaries, janitors) looking for these things instead of getting kids out of the way of any harm. We don't have, as in the case of commercial high rises, fire wardens. The elderly home, I'd like to say there is well trained staff there, but that would be a lie.

But hey, if your happy with what goes on in your area, more power to you. I'm happy with how we respond to alarms.

[LaFireEducator]

Was it irresponsible for NBC not to evacuate? As many local posters have pointed out they more than likely had a plan, which, depending on the circumstances dicated if an evacuation was needed.

Maybe the host simply needs some education, like most of America. However, that's awfully tough to do effectivly when the average fire department spends less than 1% of it's budget on public education and there is no real national agency that has money for serious national fire education programs.

And there are those that would like to see that whooping $26M a year that the locals do get from the feds for pubed rolled over into FireAct because spending money on pued is a "waste".

As far as the whole assignment responding hot on an alarm that turns out to be false in most communties in excess of 95% of the time .... everyone knows my feelings on that.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Just to review for the 6th time. This thread was not started to bash NBC for not evacuating. That end of it was probably handled correctly. The thread was started to bash Conan O'Brien for acting like a supreme jerk during the fire alarm episode.

BTW, Bones, a lot of school systems are adopting a shelter in place philosophy during a routine fire alarm or bomb threat. I would much rather have the people who are in the building every day looking for things out of the ordinary and keep the kids inside if nothing is wrong. This is an extremely effective way to handle these incidents. It takes away the incentive for the class moron who is looking for a spring Fri. off from school or the class dunce from pulling the box to get out of class. It is also extremely effective in the case of a bomb threat. People who are in the building every day would be in a far better position to notice a "suspicious" package than someone who is only there on a rare occassion.

[DDD123]

So let me understand this…. It’s okay to leave our children in the school building when the alarms sound….. But it is irresponsible when you don’t evacuate a group of adults during the filming of a show in Manhattan? What would Fire Marshal Bill do???

[Bones42]

George, yes the shelter in place for a bomb threat has been used. Not sure I agree with that one, but it's not my call. With the amount of video cameras in the school currently....it's been 2 years since a pull station was pulled.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

So let me understand this…. It’s okay to leave our children in the school building when the alarms sound….. But it is irresponsible when you don’t evacuate a group of adults during the filming of a show in Manhattan? What would Fire Marshal Bill do???

Do you read? I did not advocate evacuating the studio, either.

[DDD123]

Approximately how much time do you have between an alarm activation and conditions when it is impossible to escape? Approximately how much time do you have following an alarm activation to give cogent instructions before people begin to panic? Approximately how much time does it take to exit a building such as this building in Rockefeller Center?




Not an advocate for evacuation huh!! Whats all this crap then??

[CaptainGonzo]

Not an advocate for evacuation huh!! Whats all this crap then??

Buildings with large "footprints" and high rises have evacuation plans based on evcauating the zone or zones the alarm came from, and sheltering in place the rest of the building.

George's point was Conan O'Brien made a joke of it... nothing more, nothing less.

[hwoods]

George's point was Conan O'Brien made a joke of it... nothing more, nothing less.


That is also my take on it, from a different part of the universe...... I'll second Gonz' motion.:)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Not an advocate for evacuation huh!! Whats all this crap then??

They were rhetorical questions that were asked to exploit someone's complete lack of knowledge of the subject. You took them completely out of context and you know it and that is despicable.

[teharley]

Insted stay in the and play poker.

Partypoker.com code ZYX987

[Haweater]

usually when people hear a fire alarm,they go outside the building,no?i really hope they go outside!!!

The problem with fires in large buildings is determining accurately how many people were in the building at the time of the fire. This is much easier to accomplish when they all just stay inside, then we don't have to wonder how many went home. :P