Milwaukee mayor cutting truck crews

[tomlaumann]

Plan to trim crews angers firefighters
Harsh exchanges characterize annual meeting

By LARRY SANDLER
lsandler@journalsentinel.com

Posted: Oct. 16, 2007
Backed by comrades from Washington, D.C., and New York City, Milwaukee firefighters mounted an attack Monday night against attempts to reduce their ladder crews.

Milwaukee firefighters applaud as Pastor Mose Fuller (left) leaves the podium after speaking to aldermen Monday at City Hall, during the city's annual budget meeting.
Fire Lt. Al Jansen addresses Milwaukee's Finance & Personnel Committee at the budget hearing Monday night.
Milwaukee fire and rescue workers converge on City Hall to express concern for proposed cuts in some ladder truck crews.

At A Glance
The proposed city budget would:

Boost spending 4%, from $1.24 billion to $1.29 billion.
Raise the property tax levy 3.3%, from $220.1 million to $227.4 million.
The property tax rate would rise 2 cents, from $7.99 to $8.01 per $1,000 of assessed value.
Also, the average city service bill would rise $22, from $379.48 to $401.48, led by a $9 increase in the snow and ice removal fee, from $12 to $21.
Firefighters accounted for more than half of the 100-plus people who packed the Common Council chambers for the city's annual budget hearing. They were united in their opposition to Mayor Tom Barrett's recommendation to reduce crews from five firefighters to four on three ladder companies and one engine company.
Firefighter Kyle Dannies bluntly warned that the change could cost lives.
"When you bury one of us, that's going to be your responsibility," Dannies told Barrett and aldermen. "And do me a favor: Don't give the flag to my wife."
Earlier Monday, Fire Chief Doug Holton repeatedly told the council's Finance & Personnel Committee that he did not believe the staffing cut would affect either firefighter safety or public safety. Holton pointed to 10 months of experience since five ladder crews were trimmed to four firefighters each, as well as his experience with smaller crews as fire chief in St. Paul, Minn.

But the president of the District of Columbia Firefighters Association warned that early safety statistics can be deceptive.

Washington fire Lt. Dan Dugan said his co-workers were lucky for the first few years after crews were reduced from five to four firefighters in the early 1990s. But in 1997 and 1999, Dugan said, three firefighters were killed and one was seriously burned because their crews were stretched too thin at fire scenes.

Washington went back to five-member crews in 2001, he said.

If the cuts go through, "sooner or later, you're going to have to bury one of those firefighters back there," Dugan said, pointing to the galleries behind him.

New York firefighter Robert Senatore also recalled a colleague who died in a fire because of short staffing on engines. Milwaukee firefighters gave standing ovations to Dugan and Senatore.

Other Milwaukee firefighters wielded rhetorical axes as sharp as the ones they carry on duty.

Firefighter Kevin Monaghan noted that the staffing reduction was based on a study of fire departments in similar-sized cities, then listed the sizes of the city councils in each of those cities. He came up with 11, in comparison to Milwaukee's 15.

"Let's start cutting at the top," Monaghan said. "Which four aldermen would like to step down? We do more with less. Maybe it's your turn."

And firefighter Scott Vilter, standing just a few feet from Ald. Michael McGee's vacant desk, told the council, "Our rigs staffed with four people work just as well as an alderman working out of jail."

Speaking to the committee earlier, Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association President Bobbie Webber said of the cuts: "This is like playing Russian roulette with the lives of firefighters. If it is solely driven by the bottom line, that is problematic."

Budget chief Mark Nicolini bristled at Webber's suggestion that savings trumped safety in preparing Barrett's 2008 spending plan. Nicolini said he and his staff were "not a bunch of budget buccaneers out there looking for an easy cut."

After the hearing, Barrett said he understood the firefighters' concerns and added, "If we were awash in dollars, we wouldn't be making difficult decisions."

Still, Barrett noted, four firefighters is the national average for ladder crews.

If the council agrees, the budget would eliminate 12 firefighters' jobs through attrition, with no layoffs. This is the third year Barrett has sought to trim fire crews, but aldermen have moved slowly. In the 2006 budget, the council agreed only to trims on most engine crews; in the 2007 budget, aldermen supported reductions on only five of 16 ladder crews. Barrett, Nicolini and Holton said that if the reductions they seek are made on three ladder trucks, they have no plans for future crew reductions on the remaining eight.

Several housing advocates also urged aldermen to boost funding for the Housing Trust Fund to help build affordable housing.

Barrett's budget allocates $400,000 for that fund - far less than the $2 million expected by the fund's supporters. But the mayor says the $2.5 million that the city put into the fund this year remains unspent, and the city hasn't received any proposals for projects to use the money.

Milwaukee Public Schools teachers and administrators also showed up to lobby in favor of Barrett's proposal to increase the number of police officers assigned to the schools. They said a pilot program at two high schools this year had worked well.

Barrett wants to expand the program to 10 more schools. But he chose to fund the expansion partly by counting on the state Legislature to increase shared revenue to the city by $3.6 million, and that increase has now been voted down by both the Assembly and the Senate and dropped from Gov. Jim Doyle's revised 2007-'09 state budget.

Overall, the budget would boost spending 4%, from $1.24 billion to $1.29 billion, and raise the property tax levy 3.3%, from $220.1 million to $227.4 million. The property tax rate would rise 2 cents, from $7.99 to $8.01 per of $1,000 assessed value, up $2.64 for a median-value $132,000 home.

Also, the average city service bill would rise $22, from $379.48 to $401.48, led by a $9 increase in the snow and ice removal fee, from $12 to $21. For the average homeowner, the combined tax and fee increase would be 1.7%.

The council's Finance & Personnel Committee is to consider possible budget amendments Nov. 1 and 2, followed by full council action on the budget Nov. 9. If Barrett casts any line-item vetoes, aldermen could try to override them Nov. 21.

[ChicagoFF]

.....just waiting for the mutts here to chime in about how this seems fair......:rolleyes:

[Hazmat91180]

Well I am from the Milwaukee area, and I don't think this is right at all. There are plenty of other areas I am sure they can find to cut.

[HotTrotter]

OK, Chicago, I know you have complained about the high taxes in Chicago.
So I ask you and Hazmat to show me where else they can cut. I'm not defending the cuts. But if you are to argue against them then you need to have an alternative solution other than "There are plenty of other areas I am sure they can find to cut." Please, give specifics.

I know as a tax payer I'm constantly complaining about my high taxes. And what do the community "leaders" cut? Essential services. This while leaving pet projects for bicycle paths and walking trails in the budget. :rolleyes: Just once you wish they would do the right thing.

And one other thing. When does the Mayor all of a sudden become an expert on how to run the FD? If he wants to cut the FD budget he should tell the chief he is losing X% and it is up to the chief to figure out where to cut the money. :mad:

[DaSharkie]

One must love the point about how the city of Milwaukee has more alderman than other cities its size - yet none of the elected representatives are willing to step down but will ask others to do more.

Don't you just love the hyporacy of politicians?

[dave29]

Cut services = DEAD FFs and non FFs

FU Mayor

[FWDbuff]

Plan to trim crews angers firefighters
Harsh exchanges characterize annual meeting

By LARRY SANDLER
lsandler@journalsentinel.com

Posted: Oct. 16, 2007
Backed by comrades from Washington, D.C., and New York City, Milwaukee firefighters mounted an attack Monday night against attempts to reduce their ladder crews.

Milwaukee firefighters applaud as Pastor Mose Fuller (left) leaves the podium after speaking to aldermen Monday at City Hall, during the city's annual budget meeting.
Fire Lt. Al Jansen addresses Milwaukee's Finance & Personnel Committee at the budget hearing Monday night.
Milwaukee fire and rescue workers converge on City Hall to express concern for proposed cuts in some ladder truck crews.

At A Glance
The proposed city budget would:

Boost spending 4%, from $1.24 billion to $1.29 billion.
Raise the property tax levy 3.3%, from $220.1 million to $227.4 million.
The property tax rate would rise 2 cents, from $7.99 to $8.01 per $1,000 of assessed value.
Also, the average city service bill would rise $22, from $379.48 to $401.48, led by a $9 increase in the snow and ice removal fee, from $12 to $21.
Firefighters accounted for more than half of the 100-plus people who packed the Common Council chambers for the city's annual budget hearing. They were united in their opposition to Mayor Tom Barrett's recommendation to reduce crews from five firefighters to four on three ladder companies and one engine company.
Firefighter Kyle Dannies bluntly warned that the change could cost lives.
"When you bury one of us, that's going to be your responsibility," Dannies told Barrett and aldermen. "And do me a favor: Don't give the flag to my wife."
Earlier Monday, Fire Chief Doug Holton repeatedly told the council's Finance & Personnel Committee that he did not believe the staffing cut would affect either firefighter safety or public safety. Holton pointed to 10 months of experience since five ladder crews were trimmed to four firefighters each, as well as his experience with smaller crews as fire chief in St. Paul, Minn.

But the president of the District of Columbia Firefighters Association warned that early safety statistics can be deceptive.

Washington fire Lt. Dan Dugan said his co-workers were lucky for the first few years after crews were reduced from five to four firefighters in the early 1990s. But in 1997 and 1999, Dugan said, three firefighters were killed and one was seriously burned because their crews were stretched too thin at fire scenes.

Washington went back to five-member crews in 2001, he said.

If the cuts go through, "sooner or later, you're going to have to bury one of those firefighters back there," Dugan said, pointing to the galleries behind him.

New York firefighter Robert Senatore also recalled a colleague who died in a fire because of short staffing on engines. Milwaukee firefighters gave standing ovations to Dugan and Senatore.

Other Milwaukee firefighters wielded rhetorical axes as sharp as the ones they carry on duty.

Firefighter Kevin Monaghan noted that the staffing reduction was based on a study of fire departments in similar-sized cities, then listed the sizes of the city councils in each of those cities. He came up with 11, in comparison to Milwaukee's 15.

"Let's start cutting at the top," Monaghan said. "Which four aldermen would like to step down? We do more with less. Maybe it's your turn."

And firefighter Scott Vilter, standing just a few feet from Ald. Michael McGee's vacant desk, told the council, "Our rigs staffed with four people work just as well as an alderman working out of jail."

Speaking to the committee earlier, Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association President Bobbie Webber said of the cuts: "This is like playing Russian roulette with the lives of firefighters. If it is solely driven by the bottom line, that is problematic."

Budget chief Mark Nicolini bristled at Webber's suggestion that savings trumped safety in preparing Barrett's 2008 spending plan. Nicolini said he and his staff were "not a bunch of budget buccaneers out there looking for an easy cut."

After the hearing, Barrett said he understood the firefighters' concerns and added, "If we were awash in dollars, we wouldn't be making difficult decisions."

Still, Barrett noted, four firefighters is the national average for ladder crews.

If the council agrees, the budget would eliminate 12 firefighters' jobs through attrition, with no layoffs. This is the third year Barrett has sought to trim fire crews, but aldermen have moved slowly. In the 2006 budget, the council agreed only to trims on most engine crews; in the 2007 budget, aldermen supported reductions on only five of 16 ladder crews. Barrett, Nicolini and Holton said that if the reductions they seek are made on three ladder trucks, they have no plans for future crew reductions on the remaining eight.

Gee......anyone care to wager these guys get some kind of punitive action taken against them?

[nyckftbl]

OK, Chicago, I know you have complained about the high taxes in Chicago.
So I ask you and Hazmat to show me where else they can cut. I'm not defending the cuts. But if you are to argue against them then you need to have an alternative solution other than "There are plenty of other areas I am sure they can find to cut." Please, give specifics.

I know as a tax payer I'm constantly complaining about my high taxes. And what do the community "leaders" cut? Essential services. This while leaving pet projects for bicycle paths and walking trails in the budget. :rolleyes: Just once you wish they would do the right thing.

And one other thing. When does the Mayor all of a sudden become an expert on how to run the FD? If he wants to cut the FD budget he should tell the chief he is losing X% and it is up to the chief to figure out where to cut the money. :mad:


No.We dont have to give any alternative solutions. That is not our job! We pay most of the idiots a lot of money to figure those things out. Our job is to explain why cutting a man from truck companies endangers the lives of civilians and firemen. We dont know nearly enough about the budgets/operating capacities of other services provided by the city to make a legitimate recommendation.

[HotTrotter]

No.We dont have to give any alternative solutions. That is not our job! We pay most of the idiots a lot of money to figure those things out. Our job is to explain why cutting a man from truck companies endangers the lives of civilians and firemen. We dont know nearly enough about the budgets/operating capacities of other services provided by the city to make a legitimate recommendation.

Point being, if you can't come up with a solution then you are nothing more than a whiner. The Mayor has given his solution, if you don't like his solution you need to come up with an alternative solution.

[Geinandputitout]

No he is a fireman, doing what fireman do - putting out fires and making sure that he and his fellow firefighters come home from their job with 10 fingers and 10 toes

[SPFDRum]

Having suffered through Holton, my sympathies to my Brothers in Milwaukee.
Using St. Paul is an asinine example, you can't compare the 2. Having been to Milwaukee, take what we have in 2 1/2 story balloons and make them 3 1/2, for the entire district. It takes a 5 man truck to complete the tasks at hand.
If truck work wasn't so important and labor intensive, why did Holton add a 2nd truck to our initial alarm assignment for a structure fire?

[hwoods]

.....just waiting for the mutts here to chime in about how this seems fair......:rolleyes:


Don't hold up the bus for me, I ain't playin'. I might be an East Coast Volunteer, 1,000 Miles from Milwaukee, but I fully support the Milwaukee Brothers in this. Fires may differ from one to the next, but staffing requirements do not. My usual list of things to do, for a five person truck crew, isn't rocket science, but there isn't a lot of room for added duties either. Here's an Example:

Driver - Positions rig for proper use of aerial ladder, Does Outside Vent, Outside Utility Control, and one man Ground Ladders.
Officer - F.E. & Vent
FF 1. - F.E. & Vent
FF 2. - Search
FF 3. - Search

The Officer and FF1 Work together, as do FF2 and FF3. The Driver is working alone, but he is outside. Now, with this crew, who can you cut and still get the work done? Nobody.

[Sugarfoot]

Waiting for Jaspers opinion....................... .............

[mitllesmertz1]

I know as a tax payer I'm constantly complaining about my high taxes. And what do the community "leaders" cut? Essential services. This while leaving pet projects for bicycle paths and walking trails in the budget.

For someone who spouts off on these forums daily, you are rather uneducated.

Politician routinely use essential public services (ie Fire, PD) for budget cuts, because they know there will be much attention given to the matter.
They know people will scream and holler.
Then the politicians will establish a new tax/levy/bond to pay for the services that were cut.
People feel good about voting for the new tax/levy/bond, because it's for something they care about.
Meanwhile, the budget hasn't really been "fixed" in any manner at all.
They simply increased your taxes.

Oh, and quit referencing Wikipedia.
It's full of countless errors and mis-stated "facts".
Anyone, including 'tards like you, can write whatever they want in it.
Use the full power of the internet, instead of the first thing that pops up in Google.

[HotTrotter]

For someone who spouts off on these forums daily, you are rather uneducated.

Politician routinely use essential public services (ie Fire, PD) for budget cuts, because they know there will be much attention given to the matter.
They know people will scream and holler.
Then the politicians will establish a new tax/levy/bond to pay for the services that were cut.
People feel good about voting for the new tax/levy/bond, because it's for something they care about.
Meanwhile, the budget hasn't really been "fixed" in any manner at all.
They simply increased your taxes.

Oh, and quit referencing Wikipedia.
It's full of countless errors and mis-stated "facts".
Anyone, including 'tards like you, can write whatever they want in it.
Use the full power of the internet, instead of the first thing that pops up in Google.

Exactly what I am saying. But instead of crying and screaming about it give them another place to cut. Imagine going to the taxpayer and saying "Instead of cutting essential services how about we got out the new bike path that no one will use." I'm telling you that if you go to the taxpayer and show them how to cut taxes while maintaining the same level of service you will be the heroes of the town. It isn't rocket science, even you should be able to figure that out.


I typically don't rely on WIKI except as a good starting point. Many of the articles point to references that can be used. BTW, where have I referenced Wiki in this thread.?

[37truck]

Go figure...the first place they always look to cut, the truck

[DrParasite]

Driver - Positions rig for proper use of aerial ladder, Does Outside Vent, Outside Utility Control, and one man Ground Ladders.
Officer - F.E. & Vent
FF 1. - F.E. & Vent
FF 2. - Search
FF 3. - Search

The Officer and FF1 Work together, as do FF2 and FF3. The Driver is working alone, but he is outside. Now, with this crew, who can you cut and still get the work done? Nobody.the problem is multi-fold:
1) The NFPA (the legal precedent for many fire standards) says 4 men on the engine and 4 men on the truck is acceptable.

2) Everyone says cutting a man will cost lives. ok, playing devils advocate, does that mean a FD that runs 6 on the engine and 6 on the truck will never suffer a LODD? and even better, why aren't more departments fighting for 6 man crews, and if they do have 6 man crews, can they back up the claim that more men will save more civilian lives? and more so, does that mean a FD that operates 6/6 will have fewer fires and have fires go out more quickly? and if not, why not?

and the really big one

3) we will do it with 4. and 3. heck, some departments operate with 2 man truck companies (don't ask me why). Even though they cut staffing, we make the best of a bad situation and still do the searches, and still go inside and put the fire out.

We don't refuse to go interior due to lack of manpower.

We don't write a one room fire off and surround and drown because of lack of manpower.

We have a job to do, and even though we might not have the manpower, or equipment, or the money to do the job perfectly, we still find a way to get it done. At the end of the day, the fires still go out. We make the best of a bad situation, and find a way to get the job done.

and until that changes, we will keep ending up in these situations.

[HotTrotter]

Go figure...the first place they always look to cut, the truck

Ya know, I recall hearing the terms truck company and ladder company back in FF1. But isn't a term we use around here. We have pumpers and tankers. Can someone give a brief on what these various companies are.

[Bones42]

Generalized, and very briefly....

First due truck:
• Primary search of the fire floor.
• Determine the life hazard and rescue as required.
• Locate and confine the fire.
• Ladder building as needed.
• Control horizontal ventilation of the fire area.
• Attempt an examination of the cellar for fire.
• Pending arrival of the second truck company, assume responsibility for the entire dwelling.
• Primary search of the perimeter.
• Roof ventilation of flat roof buildings.

Second due truck:
• Primary search of all floors above the fire floor.
• Reinforce laddering and removal operations when necessary.
• Roof ventilation if needed (peaked roof).
• Insure roof ventilation (flat roof).
• Examine above the fire and exposures for extension.
• Insure that the cellar is examined for fire.
• Shut down utilities. Exercise caution when searching for the electric panel.
• Secondary search of perimeter.

[HotTrotter]

Generalized, and very briefly....

First due truck:
• Primary search of the fire floor.
• Determine the life hazard and rescue as required.
• Locate and confine the fire.
• Ladder building as needed.
• Control horizontal ventilation of the fire area.
• Attempt an examination of the cellar for fire.
• Pending arrival of the second truck company, assume responsibility for the entire dwelling.
• Primary search of the perimeter.
• Roof ventilation of flat roof buildings.

Second due truck:
• Primary search of all floors above the fire floor.
• Reinforce laddering and removal operations when necessary.
• Roof ventilation if needed (peaked roof).
• Insure roof ventilation (flat roof).
• Examine above the fire and exposures for extension.
• Insure that the cellar is examined for fire.
• Shut down utilities. Exercise caution when searching for the electric panel.
• Secondary search of perimeter.

OK, so your truck companies would be our pumper/tankers performing initial attack, Search and Rescue, ventilation, or whatever. Ladder companies obviously carry many ladders for lot's of things.

So a truck would carry the equipment as listed under a pumper?

[JTFIRE80]

Earlier Monday, Fire Chief Doug Holton repeatedly told the council's Finance & Personnel Committee that he did not believe the staffing cut would affect either firefighter safety or public safety. Holton pointed to 10 months of experience since five ladder crews were trimmed to four firefighters each, as well as his experience with smaller crews as fire chief in St. Paul, Minn.

You know, just once I'd love to hear a Fire Chief stick up for his people, and not worry about pleasing the powers to be!!!

[Hazmat91180]

I agree I should have provided reasons/other areas to cut, otherwise most post doesn't hold any weight.

having said that, how about we quit planting these elaborate flower gardens down fond du lac avenue where it is run down, no one gives a crap about it, yet we have city workers working on it weekly just to keep up the appearance. Who is paying for that?

How about the fact that this past summer they ripped up that same road about 8 times leaving it down to one lane for countless weeks, causing multiple accidents, and chaos up and down that road.

How about every time I drive by the police station on that same road, I see (I kid you not) about 20 unused police cars/trucks/motorcycles/vans/ whatever, just sitting there not doing a damn thing. If they are not in use, sell em, heck sell two for every truck company he was going to take a guy off of and you got your money right there.

[FFFRED]

Point being, if you can't come up with a solution then you are nothing more than a whiner. The Mayor has given his solution, if you don't like his solution you need to come up with an alternative solution.


Hey waterhead...did you not read this part???

Firefighter Kevin Monaghan noted that the staffing reduction was based on a study of fire departments in similar-sized cities, then listed the sizes of the city councils in each of those cities. He came up with 11, in comparison to Milwaukee's 15.

"Let's start cutting at the top," Monaghan said. "Which four aldermen would like to step down? We do more with less. Maybe it's your turn."

And firefighter Scott Vilter, standing just a few feet from Ald. Michael McGee's vacant desk, told the council, "Our rigs staffed with four people work just as well as an alderman working out of jail."

FTM-PTB

[HotTrotter]

I agree I should have provided reasons/other areas to cut, otherwise most post doesn't hold any weight.

having said that, how about we quit planting these elaborate flower gardens down fond du lac avenue where it is run down, no one gives a crap about it, yet we have city workers working on it weekly just to keep up the appearance. Who is paying for that?

How about the fact that this past summer they ripped up that same road about 8 times leaving it down to one lane for countless weeks, causing multiple accidents, and chaos up and down that road.

How about every time I drive by the police station on that same road, I see (I kid you not) about 20 unused police cars/trucks/motorcycles/vans/ whatever, just sitting there not doing a damn thing. If they are not in use, sell em, heck sell two for every truck company he was going to take a guy off of and you got your money right there.

Yup!!! Now you are talking... And not for nothing, I've seen the same thing at the local Sheriffs department. I was wondering exactly the same thing. :confused: Makes no sense at all. Like you said, all of those flowers and plants..Who really cares? Are they really needed. Can em. Matter of fact, I laughed about that this summer. We have a local city that is crying about poverty, no money, can't balance the budget. Yet there they are planting flowers and shrubs on main street and maintaining these beautiful parks. The flowers and crap need to be planted every year. And who really cares, a few of the rich folks with more money than god.

I know the big killer for us in this little town is the cost of Medicaid, makes up 50% of my tax bill. Sickening at best.

[HotTrotter]

Hey waterhead...did you not read this part???



FTM-PTB

Sure did Jello Brain. :p :D :D

[FFFRED]

Sure did Jello Brain. :p :D :D

Then why did you claim they needed to provide a solution to the problem? (as if that was their problem)

Are you illiterate?

Why aren't you calling for a reduction in the head count of the city council? Do you not agree with that suggestion?

FTM-PTB

[DrParasite]

How about every time I drive by the police station on that same road, I see (I kid you not) about 20 unused police cars/trucks/motorcycles/vans/ whatever, just sitting there not doing a damn thing. If they are not in use, sell em, heck sell two for every truck company he was going to take a guy off of and you got your money right there.probably because the day shift, evening shift and overnight shift all have different cars. That means cars are assigned to a particular shift, and no shift can use a car from another shift without proper approval. It's like saying it would be sooooo wrong for you to have to use a car that someone else used on the previous shift :rolleyes:

[jasper45]

Hey waterhead...did you not read this part???


Apparently he didn’t.
This point was looked at extensively, researched and actualized as a number. At that time the local decided not to bring it up at the meeting, as the principal officers decided it was too “controversial”. Kevin, who is a part of our e-board acted on his own, as a tax-payer. We actually had a number of members who were in line to say the exact same thing Kevin did. As you might have guessed, the common council wanted nothing to do with what was said. Their minds are made up.
Both Lt. Dugan, of Washington, D.C. and firefighter Senatore from the FDNY gave fantastic pleas for our staffing, which were fact based and passionate. Both men represented their respective departments, locals, and most of all, the entire IAFF exceptionally well. I know that our entire membership is very grateful for their time. Hopefully their presentations will make a difference.

The fact is though, the city has decided it is more important to have police in the schools, flowers in the boulevards, or any host of other non-essential to life services. City leadership has set their priorities, and fire protection is not a part of that plan. It should be noted that we campaigned very hard and long for Mayor Barrett.
In fact, on the Wednesday before this budget meeting, 10-OCT, 2007, both Mayor Barrett and Chief Holton stood before hundreds of uniformed Milwaukee firefighters while speaking at our annual fallen firefighter memorial service. They both stood before a memorial to my 106 fallen comrades, and touted our dedication, the job we do, the risk we take, blah blah blah, and five days later they pull this number, again.

1) The NFPA (the legal precedent for many fire standards) says 4 men on the engine and 4 men on the truck is acceptable.

I know what you’re saying here, and know it well. This part of 1710 is what the city has used to butcher us. If the entire standard is read, it quite clearly states that urban and high risk areas need five and even six members per company. The city is cherry picking with the standard.
Since all companies in the city are expected to be able to work in all areas of the city, all companies qualify under 1710 for the five and six members per company wording.

[Hazmat91180]

probably because the day shift, evening shift and overnight shift all have different cars. That means cars are assigned to a particular shift, and no shift can use a car from another shift without proper approval. It's like saying it would be sooooo wrong for you to have to use a car that someone else used on the previous shift :rolleyes:\

can you imagine if we did that for bus drivers? Bus tickets would be $25 to go 5 blocks. It is BS at its finest, and quite frankly I am sick of it.

[jasper45]

Mayor Tom Barrett-

414-286-220
mayor@milwaukee.gov

Willie L. Hines Jr. Council President
414-286-3591
whines@milwaukee.gov

Joe Dudzek 11th District (my alderman)
jdudzi@milwaukee.gov

If anyone contacts these members of my city government, please be respectful. Yes, they are mutts, but they still make decisions (for now) that affect my family, friends, and my work environment.


I almost forgot one.

Michael McGee Jr. 6th district
mmcgee@milwaukee.gov

Alderman McGee may be a little slow to respond. He doesn't have a lot of access to a computer in jail, where he is right now. He is currently held over for trial on numerous Federal charges.

[HotTrotter]

Then why did you claim they needed to provide a solution to the problem? (as if that was their problem)

Are you illiterate?

Why aren't you calling for a reduction in the head count of the city council? Do you not agree with that suggestion?

FTM-PTB

Apparently there is a problem. Else, why would anyone complain about the cuts? It's that old not in my backyard syndrome. Tax payers (most of us are in that circle) constantly ask for tax relief. The makers of the budget have thier little pet projects nad places that waste tons of money. They typically target big money items and essential services, the public cries out in rage, they raise the taxes and everyone is happy, except for the tax payer who just got swindled. Simply drying about a problem does nothing. Providing a solution to a problem works miracles. I always laugh at people who complain about something but don't have a solution or better way. It could be they have been given the best solution but don't like the answer. It's up to those most effected to come up with a better plan.

[ChiefKN]

This would be a tremendous loss.

In no other profession does the basic element of doing your job place an individual in such an unstable, dangerous environment. None. To reduce the number of people will certainly make it more dangerous.

I find it very hard to believe that the small amount of money saved will put this city on the yellow brick road to financial solvency.

Look elsewhere. There is waste in government, but it's almost never the individuals out there doing the actual work. The waste is hidden behind doors in town halls where people hide or try to look busy.

[FFFRED]

Apparently he didn’t.
This point was looked at extensively, researched and actualized as a number. At that time the local decided not to bring it up at the meeting, as the principal officers decided it was too “controversial”. Kevin, who is a part of our e-board acted on his own, as a tax-payer. We actually had a number of members who were in line to say the exact same thing Kevin did. As you might have guessed, the common council wanted nothing to do with what was said. Their minds are made up.
Both Lt. Dugan, of Washington, D.C. and firefighter Senatore from the FDNY gave fantastic pleas for our staffing, which were fact based and passionate. Both men represented their respective departments, locals, and most of all, the entire IAFF exceptionally well. I know that our entire membership is very grateful for their time. Hopefully their presentations will make a difference.

The fact is though, the city has decided it is more important to have police in the schools, flowers in the boulevards, or any host of other non-essential to life services. City leadership has set their priorities, and fire protection is not a part of that plan. It should be noted that we campaigned very hard and long for Mayor Barrett.
In fact, on the Wednesday before this budget meeting, 10-OCT, 2007, both Mayor Barrett and Chief Holton stood before hundreds of uniformed Milwaukee firefighters while speaking at our annual fallen firefighter memorial service. They both stood before a memorial to my 106 fallen comrades, and touted our dedication, the job we do, the risk we take, blah blah blah, and five days later they pull this number, again.



I know what you’re saying here, and know it well. This part of 1710 is what the city has used to butcher us. If the entire standard is read, it quite clearly states that urban and high risk areas need five and even six members per company. The city is cherry picking with the standard.
Since all companies in the city are expected to be able to work in all areas of the city, all companies qualify under 1710 for the five and six members per company wording.

Best of luck Jasper, it would seem "suboptimilization" is the old trend making a comeback among city governments...esentially they are saying...we want to provide a unsafe, less effective and less extensive service because we know some other places that have short changed their citizens and firemen.

Poor justification for the reduction of manpower. :mad:

FTM-PTB

[ChiefKN]

Apparently there is a problem. Else, why would anyone complain about the cuts? It's that old not in my backyard syndrome. Tax payers (most of us are in that circle) constantly ask for tax relief. The makers of the budget have thier little pet projects nad places that waste tons of money. They typically target big money items and essential services, the public cries out in rage, they raise the taxes and everyone is happy, except for the tax payer who just got swindled. Simply drying about a problem does nothing. Providing a solution to a problem works miracles. I always laugh at people who complain about something but don't have a solution or better way. It could be they have been given the best solution but don't like the answer. It's up to those most effected to come up with a better plan.

No, it's up to those who are elected or paid to make the choice. However, they need to make cuts in a manner that will have the least impact on their workers and citizens.

I am sure there are other areas to cut, unfortunately, this city (like others in the past) are looking for the easy way out and just chopping numbers.

It's a lazy approach.

[FFFRED]

Apparently there is a problem. Else, why would anyone complain about the cuts? It's that old not in my backyard syndrome. Tax payers (most of us are in that circle) constantly ask for tax relief. The makers of the budget have thier little pet projects nad places that waste tons of money. They typically target big money items and essential services, the public cries out in rage, they raise the taxes and everyone is happy, except for the tax payer who just got swindled. Simply drying about a problem does nothing. Providing a solution to a problem works miracles. I always laugh at people who complain about something but don't have a solution or better way. It could be they have been given the best solution but don't like the answer. It's up to those most effected to come up with a better plan.

And a partial solution was offered...reduce the number of councilmen and their associated staff and costs. However due to your obvious lack of reading comprehension you overlooked that solution when you stated that the firemen were whining and not providing solutions as if that was their responsiblity.

You continue to embarass yourself, your dept, your dept and the human species in general.

Best of luck to the MFD as your council probably has the brain capacity and reasoning of this inbred from upstate NY.

FTM-PTB

[Bones42]

OK, so your truck companies would be our pumper/tankers performing initial attack, Search and Rescue, ventilation, or whatever. Ladder companies obviously carry many ladders for lot's of things.

So a truck would carry the equipment as listed under a pumper?

"Attack" is putting water on the fire. That's Engine company work.


Again, generalized and brief:

1st Due Engine:
• Offensive Attack - Stretch the appropriate size hand-line to the main fire location
• Defensive Attack - Stretch a line to the exposure and initiate master stream operations as needed

2nd Due Engine:
• Assist with the stretch of the first line
• Stretch a back-up line to either protect the initial line or attack other areas of fire
• For basements fires, the 2nd line shall remain at the top of the basement stairs for protection and to limit vertical fire spread

Rule of Thumb – Do Not Stretch a 2nd line, until the 1st line is stretched and in operation

3rd Due Engine:
• Assist with stretching the initial lines
• Stretch and operate the line in the exposure

[PureAdrenalin]

having said that, how about we quit planting these elaborate flower gardens down fond du lac avenue where it is run down, no one gives a crap about it, yet we have city workers working on it weekly just to keep up the appearance. Who is paying for that?You forgot about all the water that is sprayed on these elaborate displays during the middle of the day when it's 95 degrees out. But c'mon...if it makes a stinking ghetto that much more excellent then I'm all for it.

How about the fact that this past summer they ripped up that same road about 8 times leaving it down to one lane for countless weeks, causing multiple accidents, and chaos up and down that road.wait..is that fond du lac ave? Or was it the 9 month long capitol drive repaving you're speaking of. How about 76th st...that's only been worked on since what..april?


How about every time I drive by the police station on that same road, I see (I kid you not) about 20 unused police cars/trucks/motorcycles/vans/ whatever, just sitting there not doing a damn thing. If they are not in use, sell em, heck sell two for every truck company he was going to take a guy off of and you got your money right there. OH!!! That's gotta be District 4 right...or is it District 7?

I would love to know how much money the city is really saving out of this plan. Because I highly doubt it's nearly enough to make even the smallest dent in their debt. It's the proverbial "throwing the hotdog down the hallway" without all of the sexual connotations of course. This is not right, it will never be right.


And now for some giggles..here is a photo I snapped of Milwaukee's finest on a coffee break.

I call this peice of art....Excess

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q290/pureadrenalin9019/IMG_0430.jpg

Two marked units sandwiching an unmarked. I couldn't fit the third marked unit in the photo..there was another just behind the last one in line.

[HotTrotter]

No, it's up to those who are elected or paid to make the choice. However, they need to make cuts in a manner that will have the least impact on their workers and citizens.

I am sure there are other areas to cut, unfortunately, this city (like others in the past) are looking for the easy way out and just chopping numbers.

It's a lazy approach.

Yes it is up to those elected. But when those elected say they are cutting my budget it is up to me to tell them why they can't. And while I am at it I can show them where they can cut. You end up delivering a much more potent message and will get the backing of the tax payer as well. I am one tax payer tired of paying for all of the unnecessary BS. Bike trials, and hiking trails and campsites :rolleyes: Get real.

[cozmosis]

probably because the day shift, evening shift and overnight shift all have different cars. That means cars are assigned to a particular shift, and no shift can use a car from another shift without proper approval. It's like saying it would be sooooo wrong for you to have to use a car that someone else used on the previous shift :rolleyes:

So, you think a police car should be driven 24 hours a day?

I say this only because we'd all be upset if the police department sat in judgment of fire department operations... I can only imagine if some cop came here and started talking junk about all of the apparatus sitting unused in stations & shops (we call them reserves).

[LaFireEducator]

If you start looking at the milage racked up in one 8 hour shift on your typicasl cruiser, you would understand why many departments have "shift" cars. Here, a cop is generally issued a car and that becomes his vehicle.

Also, some of those vehicles may have been special purpose vehicles, or reserves. Also, the departments have a fair number of backup vehicles that are used for overtime guys for large events, like the Mardi Gras parades.

[JJensenJr]

In the 2006 budget, the council agreed only to trims on most engine crews; in the 2007 budget, aldermen supported reductions on only five of 16 ladder crews. Barrett, Nicolini and Holton said that if the reductions they seek are made on three ladder trucks, they have no plans for future crew reductions on the remaining eight.

Until next year, when they say "If we got by with 4 men on a truck, we can get by with just 3." Next comes station closures...

[DrParasite]

So, you think a police car should be driven 24 hours a day?

I say this only because we'd all be upset if the police department sat in judgment of fire department operations... I can only imagine if some cop came here and started talking junk about all of the apparatus sitting unused in stations & shops (we call them reserves).ummm yes? it's what its there for. my ambulances are driven 24 hours a day. the city fire trucks are used 24 hours a day. the parking nazis drive the same trucks 24 hours a day.
and when they break down, get old, the mileage gets high enough, and need to be replaced, a replacement is purchased. why should the cops be any different? In the world of Fire/EMS/DPW, you don't see the day crew using one vehicle, and the night crew using a different vehicle (both new vehicles), do you?

I can't speak for your department, but most department have older apparatus in storage as reserve. not a brand new pumper for the night shift. reserve apparatus serves a purpose, as does having older units on standby in case a front line unit breaks down, which allows the older units to be put in service quickly as a front line unit.

having brand new police cars for the day, evening and overnight shift (with no shift using another shifts cars) might be looked upon by some as a poor way to use taxpayer money. but your opinions may vary.

[Bones42]

My PD does not have separate cars for each shift.

[HotTrotter]

Make sure the mayor doesn't read the CFD report, they are going to go from 3 to 4. :eek:

[jasper45]

Make sure the mayor doesn't read the CFD report, they are going to go from 3 to 4.



You really don't get the whole issue, do you. This mayor has been steadily cutting our manpower for the better part of four years now.
When I was hired, 14 years ago, we ran five across the board and our paramedic units had three. We firmly believe that this mayor would be happy if he could reduce us to three per company. Each year he has taken a little bit more, and then a little bit more, and then a little bit more.

Three people assigned to a firefighting company is unsafe, anywhere. Four is marginally better, but inadequate, as far as I'm concerned.
There is money available to save these positions, it's just that those in power are set on cutting us to the bone.

The last positions that should be cut are the line firefighters. Those are the guys that do the job that we're supposed to. Everything in this department, outside of the line companies is set up to support the firefighting division. That is the division that does all of the work that this department is tasked to do, and yet that is where all of the cuts are taking place.

Why do they cut firefighters? Because it generates a public outcry and is completely visible. Why would you cut the people who actually do the job? Why would you not look elsewhere, in the support divisions, or non-firefighting division programs?

There are ways to make cuts and reductions to a budget without cutting firefighters.

[HotTrotter]

You really don't get the whole issue, do you. This mayor has been steadily cutting our manpower for the better part of four years now.
When I was hired, 14 years ago, we ran five across the board and our paramedic units had three. We firmly believe that this mayor would be happy if he could reduce us to three per company. Each year he has taken a little bit more, and then a little bit more, and then a little bit more.

Three people assigned to a firefighting company is unsafe, anywhere. Four is marginally better, but inadequate, as far as I'm concerned.
There is money available to save these positions, it's just that those in power are set on cutting us to the bone.

The last positions that should be cut are the line firefighters. Those are the guys that do the job that we're supposed to. Everything in this department, outside of the line companies is set up to support the firefighting division. That is the division that does all of the work that this department is tasked to do, and yet that is where all of the cuts are taking place.

Why do they cut firefighters? Because it generates a public outcry and is completely visible. Why would you cut the people who actually do the job? Why would you not look elsewhere, in the support divisions, or non-firefighting division programs?

There are ways to make cuts and reductions to a budget without cutting firefighters.

Actually, I do get it. Why do you think I told yo not to show the CFD report to your mayor. That wouldn't do much to help things now would it? I have also said you need to put up a fight. An effective fight not only says this is why you can't cut my budget, but also, here is a place to make the cuts. The best defense is a good offense. Put them on their heals as they say. Get them back peddling and it is hard to go forward.

[ChiefKN]

Actually, I do get it. Why do you think I told yo not to show the CFD report to your mayor. That wouldn't do much to help things now would it? I have also said you need to put up a fight. An effective fight not only says this is why you can't cut my budget, but also, here is a place to make the cuts. The best defense is a good offense. Put them on their heals as they say. Get them back peddling and it is hard to go forward.

Well, the CFD report shows that the trend is to move UP on manpower not down. I don't know that the report states that 4 is optimal, does it?

Again, the Fire Department should not be suggesting cuts. It may work in small town hall meetings (although I doubt it), but it won't work in a larger municipality.

All that will do is to transfer the ill-will of some of the population from the politicians/town management to the fire department. Now instead of those who want more money for parks/recreation being angry at the politicos/town management, they are angry at the fire department.

AVOID that like the plague.

The best offense is to make a clear argument against the cuts and back it with documentation that will support your argument (national standards, studies, etc.).

[Dickey]

I just shake my head at Trotter. how clueless can one person be? really now??


Jasper....

I wish you all the luck in this battle. Next will be the other 8 trucks. When I first heard this from my buddy down there I thought it was going to get nasty. How many Adminstrative Assistants does the City have? Why does the city still do garbage service? What about the redundancy of fleet maintenance for every City Dept.? How many bike trails and flower beds does a city need? What about the 25 extra paddy wagons the PD just got?? Not to mention the 15 alderman. Why not cut their pay by 10%?

There is so much fat to be trimmed in that city it is rediculous! Stay strong brother! Oh, and if you run into Lt. Underwood, tell him Dickey says hi!!:D

[jasper45]

I just shake my head at Trotter. how clueless can one person be?

I was really wondering the same thing. The way that he talks, it makes me think that he believes we just woke up one day, and pow-the city's looking to cut us. It's actually quite condescending; without getting too deeply into this, we've been battling, researching, exploring, planning, and battling yet some more. In some cases for years on end.
These cuts were not a surprise, as we have been fighting this battle since 1965.

To make a comment though, such as "better not show the mayor the cfd report" is a bit ridiculous, and makes me believe that trotter may be a little bit naive.
Do people honestly not believe that his office hasn't done their own research? They spent close to one million dollars two years ago, in funding a report to justify their reductions at that time. How many positions would that fund?
The mayor here can spout off NFPA standards almost better than the people who wrote them; well, at least the parts of the standards that fit the mayor's needs. Yes, 1710 was the primary agent used to cut all of our engine companies, and now it is being used to cut our trucks.

It is interesting to note though, that when we pointed out our eagerness to be NFPA compliant, just as soon as the city did it's part, like issuing NFPA compliant uniforms, it suddenly became 'voluntary', or non-binding.

What about the redundancy of fleet maintenance for every City Dept.? How many bike trails and flower beds does a city need? What about the 25 extra paddy wagons the PD just got?? Not to mention the 15 alderman. Why not cut their pay by 10%?
There is so much fat to be trimmed in that city it is rediculous!

These are a few of the other avenues we have looked at. This is a tricky line to walk though, as a labor union. All other city employees are unionized as well, and it gets tough to receive sympathy or support when our plan promotes the loss of their jobs. I thought the point on cutting the alderman to a size equal to the cities they compared us to as great, of course they didn't see it that way.

There is fat to cut, there is a ton of redundancy inside the city infrastructure that could be looked at.
The fact is though, if budget cuts are indeed necessary, the people who actually perform the basic service to the community should be the last to be cut. That is not the case with us.
It is interesting to note, since 1965 the department has been cut by close to 40%.

if you run into Lt. Underwood, tell him Dickey says hi!!

Gladly.