Every Member Having A Radio!

[SIGNAL99COM]

With 14 years in the volunteer fire service, I have had the opportunity to build strong opinions on certain aspects of the job. One of which is that I believe it should be MANDATORY that every firefighter entering a structure with an SCBA on should have a radio also.

Having a radio doesn't mean that you have to talk on the radio. It means that if something happens and you become lost and disoriented, you can call for assistance or god forbid, call a mayday. How would a member call for help or call for a mayday if he doesn't have a radio? What happens if during a search with your partner, your partner with the radio falls through the floor into the basement? How are you supposed to report what just happened if you don't have a radio?

It is 2007 folks and if you ask me, there is no excuse for this. I have heard all the excuses of why departments don't feel it should be a requirement, and so far all of the negative issues all lead back to being training issues. I have heard everything from "if you give a guy a radio, he will talk on it just to hear himself talk" to "if all three members on the handline have a radio, the feedback will cause issues since their so close together". Both of these are training issues which can easily be overcome.

With all the OSHA/PESH requirements, and all the NFPA recommendations, why have we not seen every member has to have a radio come through the system yet? Why isn't this mandatory yet?

[KevinFFVFD]

110% agree. Everyone on our department is issued a radio. It’s a very important tool to have. The only draw back about the radios we use is they are not loud enough, so they are kinda hard to hear on the fireground. Plus if you get them too wet or get foam on them they tend to go kaput.

[JHR1985]

MANDATORY that every firefighter entering a structure with an SCBA on should have a radio also.



What do the ones do who dont wear an SCBA?:eek:

[cozmosis]

I totally agree.

When our city bought new radios for police and fire several years ago, they purchased a radio for every single member of the police department. The fire department got seven or eight radios for more than 20 career or volunteer positions. I don't know that we need radios for every single person (can you imagine the radio traffic with that)... But we certainly need them for every riding position on the apparatus.

[FlyingKiwi]

Does this include Explorers?


Kiwi ducks really fast. :p

[BLSboy]

Does this include Explorers?


Kiwi ducks really fast. :p

Boy, you are just working for another ban, aren't ya?
lol
:D

[nmfire]

We equip each apparatus with portable radios to match air packs plus one for the driver. If there are 6 air packs, there are 7 radios.

[CaptainGonzo]

There should be a portable radio for every assigned position on the rig.

Officers should be assigned their own portable radio.

Off duty personnel recalled for a major incident, call and volunteer personnel should form up in crews with at least one of the people in a crew having a radio, preferrably a company officer.

[RFDACM02]

I completely agree every member that is wearing SCBA should be radio equipped. We have found that having them truck mounted is probably the best idea for most. In our area the County bought hundreds of portables for the various depts. Due to the high number of volunteers, most were given to individuals to keep on their person, which has led to a near collapse of the regional dispatch system. It seems that many places cannot instill radio disipline. It's amazing how many people turn out for a bark mulch fire and feel dispatch needs to track them!

[Haweater]

Everyone on our department has a radio. The feedback issue with a team in close proximity is a problem that is easily overcome. When a team is working on a job, one of them has the task of communication with their captain and/or IC. The other member leaves his radio turned off and in his radio pocket. Should the partner fall through the floor/whatever, turn the radio on, guess there's no feedback issue now.

[Bones42]

Haweater, I'd suggest that instead of having them turned off, they simply have the volume all the way down. That way, there is no feedback, and if they fall and are trapped, they can transmit without having to fumble around (if they are even able) and turn the radio on.

[Rescueranger82]

When I was on the job in the 1980s, there was only one portable for each truck, with the exception of one of the ladders. That truck was only run at night, and there was NO portable. Worse, hitting the siren caused a dead short in the electrical system, such that the truck radio cut out. Complaining did no good. Eventually the dept went fully paid and that ladder was put in reserve. Now the dept has a portable for every FF.

[SIGNAL99COM]

Haweater, I'd suggest that instead of having them turned off, they simply have the volume all the way down. That way, there is no feedback, and if they fall and are trapped, they can transmit without having to fumble around (if they are even able) and turn the radio on.

Thanks for quickly replying to the keep the radio turned off idea. Reaching for your mic is one thing, having to reach into your radio pocket to turn the radio on is another!

[Chauffer6]

It is 2007 folks and if you ask me, there is no excuse for this. I have heard all the excuses of why departments don't feel it should be a requirement, and so far all of the negative issues all lead back to being training issues. I have heard everything from "if you give a guy a radio, he will talk on it just to hear himself talk" to "if all three members on the handline have a radio, the feedback will cause issues since their so close together". Both of these are training issues which can easily be overcome.

With all the OSHA/PESH requirements, and all the NFPA recommendations, why have we not seen every member has to have a radio come through the system yet? Why isn't this mandatory yet?

There is one factor that is not just an "excuse": Financial. Some depts simply do not have the funds to purchase a radio for every member/SCBA riding position. There are plenty of small town volunteer depts that are still funded entirely by donations, and can't afford to purchase that many radios. Having them be required by NFPA would put quite the burden on these depts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think ideally every member on the fireground should have their own radio...but not everything comes down to a BS excuse for why a particular dept can't or won't purchase them.


Haweater, I'd suggest that instead of having them turned off, they simply have the volume all the way down. That way, there is no feedback, and if they fall and are trapped, they can transmit without having to fumble around (if they are even able) and turn the radio on.

Thanks for quickly replying to the keep the radio turned off idea. Reaching for your mic is one thing, having to reach into your radio pocket to turn the radio on is another!

The trouble with leaving it on with the volume turned all the way down is if, in the heat of the moment, they forget to turn the volume back up, they won't hear anyone calling them. Since the on/off control IS the volume knob on 99% of the radios out there, there's really no difference either way. Yes, keeping the radio on ensures the firefighter can just key up and give a MAYDAY and someone will probably hear it, but what if someone else is transmitting and their message isn't heard? I'd rather have my guy turn his volume all the way up so he knows someone heard him and acknowledged him!

Also, with the volume at full, if the firefighter passes out, you can use feedback to help locate him. Can't do that if he transmits the MAYDAY with the volume all the way down. If he goes unconscious BEFORE he gets a chance to transmit, well then it won't matter either way, clearly.

[Chief2701]

There should be a portable radio for every assigned position on the rig.

Officers should be assigned their own portable radio.

Off duty personnel recalled for a major incident, call and volunteer personnel should form up in crews with at least one of the people in a crew having a radio, preferrably a company officer.

Close to how we are set up, All department personnel are issued a Minitor V, All officers and Engineers are issued a radio, each seat has a radio, and spares are avaiable in both command vehicles.

[MalahatTwo7]

Malahat VFD went to that approach a few years ago, when we were required by CRTC to upgrade our radios to meet the narrowbanding requirements. The chief at the time figured that since we had several older radios that needed to be replaced, he should add a few more to the rack, so that everyone on the fire ground would at least have one in hand if a situation called for one. We used to get flak if we didn't take one.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

Just because every member is issued one doesn't mean that they will bother to grab it when they respond to the station/scene. Each memeber of my department has a brand new ICOM F33 with every PSA frequency programmed for the tri-county area. We also don't have an issue with abuse; however, we do have an issue with people not grabbing theirs. I like the idea of clipping a radio to every air pack and running a lapel mic up through the strap and clipping it so that it hangs upside down. Each radio should be checked at least weekly with the batteries kept on a regular charge/discharge rotation.

[ChiefKN]

Every riding position has a radio w/speaker mic.

Company officers have an officer radio in their locker (it has a display so that identifiers can be read). All Mobile radios also have a display so that the Identifier can be read. All chief vehicles have two radios, one for dispatch and one for fireground.

All radios have their ID engraved in the radio. So that you know that you have radio 53C. The ID's are Company Unit (number) and seat position (letter). So, 53A is the officer seat, 53B is the chaf, and the rest are FF seats.

In regards to not having enough money... that's a tough one. My suggestion is to research what is out there and start adding radios one by one. They don't have to be top of the line motorola!

Outfit your first due and one for each apparatus after that and then slowly add more..

This should be a priority with your fundraising and appeals to town government.

[RFDACM02]

On the money end, almost anyone should be able to get one on many grants for Interoperable Communications. This one of the highest priorites for the funding of grants. Our County (very small) got one through a single FD for $825K!!!

[WaterbryVTfire]

My old department (that had money to waste!) issued radios to officers only.
My current (with little extra $$) issues radios to every interior fire fighter.

[MPVFD2046]

Ok,

my former department serves a very small town of about 600. Currently two radios are assigned to each apparatus. The engine can seat three, but two are already available for the truck and the same goes for the squad. Additional radios are in a radio bank by the door as you enter the station, so you grab one as you head for your gear. This is SOP for all personnel to have a radio when operating on a scene. This has helped during PAR's and even when members have had to use the little "orange" button.

However, this has not come without a financial burden to the department. Several used radios were purchased to get the number of radios available for each apparatus AND with re-banding the department is now applying for grants in order to communicate with not only our dispatch center, but also all FD's in the area. Money has been an issue, but the expense is well worth it and I am hear today because of the rule every member caries a radio.

[ChiefKN]

Ok,

my former department serves a very small town of about 600. Currently two radios are assigned to each apparatus. The engine can seat three, but two are already available for the truck and the same goes for the squad. Additional radios are in a radio bank by the door as you enter the station, so you grab one as you head for your gear. This is SOP for all personnel to have a radio when operating on a scene. This has helped during PAR's and even when members have had to use the little "orange" button.

However, this has not come without a financial burden to the department. Several used radios were purchased to get the number of radios available for each apparatus AND with re-banding the department is now applying for grants in order to communicate with not only our dispatch center, but also all FD's in the area. Money has been an issue, but the expense is well worth it and I am hear today because of the rule every member caries a radio.


Don't forget to investigate working as a region on a grant application for a radio system. From what I'm told regional communication grants are very successful.

How do those orange buttons work for you? We didn't program them yet, and are a little hesitant to do so.

[SSHANK42]

We equip each apparatus with portable radios to match air packs plus one for the driver. If there are 6 air packs, there are 7 radios.

Thats how we do it. Like somebody else said just because you have a radio does not mean you have to talk on it.

[LaFireEducator]

It depends on the community and the type of structures.

A small town with primarily mobile homes and single family residences certainly does not need a radio for every riding position and every member. As long as the members are equipped with PASS devices, and the lead member of the crews have a radio, these structures are small enough that a radio is not needed for all. There should be enough radios for personnel supervising crews and/or sectors, as they need to communicate with the outside for direction. Officers should be issued portables for daily use, but there is no need for line firefighters to have radios.

Communties with larger structures may need to consider radios for all riding posistions, however, even there, personnel should be operating, at a minimum as a 2 man team. As long as one member of the team has a radio, that should be more than sufficiant. Certainly not all members needs radios. Pagers are more than adequate for non-officers.

Departments that allow members to operate solo obviously needs radios for all members. While I find this practice foolish and dangerous, it is done on a regular basis.

We issue radios to all members, including support and juniors. We have found that a radio is very close in price to a pager. We do it priamrily so that medical responders and firefighters going POV can give a patient/arrival report. On the fireground we could operate with far fewer radios without a compromise in firefighter safety.

[jasper45]

I

Departments that allow members to operate solo obviously needs radios for all members. While I find this practice foolish and dangerous, it is done on a regular basis.


You truly amaze me, you know it? You are such a complete and total hypocrite. You rip guys for how their departments attack certain fires, and tell us all that every city is unique, and that these different needs for a department are all different etc..., and then criticize departments that operate different than you think is appropriate? Get real, and go away, please. Fantasy land awaits.

[MPVFD2046]

The orange buttons is used as a firefighter in trouble button. This when activated makes that radio a priority and allows the dispatcher to id that portable or mobile and have all other radio operations move to another channel or stop until the problem is fixed. This is in addition to the pass device...I like to say it happens by accident, but when used correctly a lot of guys have come home alive...

[Weruj1]

Here all officers are issued radios and there is one for each riding position. We are lucky to have this.

[LaFireEducator]

You truly amaze me, you know it? You are such a complete and total hypocrite. You rip guys for how their departments attack certain fires, and tell us all that every city is unique, and that these different needs for a department are all different etc..., and then criticize departments that operate different than you think is appropriate? Get real, and go away, please. Fantasy land awaits.

Where did I rip any patriculiar department for operating guys solo? Where did I say they should stop the practice? Where did I condemn the department for being unsafe?

I don't agree with the practice. It's against everything that I have been taught and taught in my 28 years in the fire service. I have yet to be on a department that operated in this way. I have yet to have any instructor, anywhere, at any time say that it's fine to send a single firefighter to search a room or operate on the roof, or in fact, conduct any offensive operation. You find me a nationally distributed textbook that advocates this practice or an instructor that teaches this in a recognized STATE or national (not a local or specific department) fire academy and I will retract my statement. But I doubt you will.

If I was told by any officer to do that, it simply would not happen, and I would expect any firefighter to refuse an order from me if in fact I told them to do that.

If your department feels that there is truly a need to operate that way fine. It is dangerous and if it hasn't resulted in a LODD yet, it will. I know that I could never justify a brother's death to a family iof he was operating alone. But that's my opinion. I never said it should stop immediattly as that's a local decision that the department needs to make. Yes, it was a comment on operations, and maybe it wasn't the right context for it, but I satnd by it.

IMO nothing we need to do within a structure, on a roof or in the collapse zone should be done alone. Our safety is simply too important.

That's my opinion.

[SIGNAL99COM]

There is one factor that is not just an "excuse": Financial. Some depts simply do not have the funds to purchase a radio for every member/SCBA riding position. There are plenty of small town volunteer depts that are still funded entirely by donations, and can't afford to purchase that many radios. Having them be required by NFPA would put quite the burden on these depts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think ideally every member on the fireground should have their own radio...but not everything comes down to a BS excuse for why a particular dept can't or won't purchase

Here is an article in this month's Fire Engineering. I have the same attitude as the author, and financial issues is not my problem, nor should they come in the way of safety!

Give Them What They Are Paying For
Stuart Grant
Les Stephens
Fire Engineering (August 2007)

HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED that there aren’t any volunteer police departments, volunteer garbage men, or volunteer road or water department employees? Now, before you quit reading, hear us out. We’re not bashing volunteers; just the opposite: We have the utmost respect and admiration for those individuals who give so selflessly of their time and abilities. In some instances, they give so much of themselves that it ends up hurting or even destroying their families. Last, but certainly not least, many of our brothers and sisters have lost their lives in the course of their duties as volunteer firefighters.

It takes a very special person to volunteer his time. This is true whether you volunteer your time at a hospital, in a local youth athletic association, at your church, in a charity organization, or for your local volunteer fire department. In today’s world, it seems there is nothing more precious or valuable than someone’s time. Volunteers aren’t just giving of their time. They are choosing to spend their “free time” volunteering rather than doing something with their family, pursuing a hobby, or making money at their primary job or even a part-time job.

THREE CATEGORIES OF DEPARTMENTS

The fire service in the United States has evolved into three distinct categories, in terms of the type of members: career, combination, and volunteer. Two major characteristics distinguish these organizations from one another: staffing and funding.

The career and combination departments are staffed by paid firefighters. These types of departments are almost totally funded by ad valorem taxes levied against property owners within a specific area. A small amount also may come from citizen donations. The third type, the volunteer department, is one in which all members volunteer their time to provide fire protection to a specific jurisdiction. The funding for volunteer organizations can come from many different sources. In some cases, ad valorem taxes are used; in others, emergency service districts or fire protection districts are formed and are used to generate revenue to purchase needed apparatus, equipment, supplies, and training. However, in some of these volunteer organizations, a portion, if not all, of the funds comes from such activities as bingo, chili cookoffs, barbecues, Christmas tree sales, raffles, car washes, bake sales, carnivals, and similar activities.

As instructors at a community college and at the Texas Municipal Fire Training School, we have had the opportunity to observe and work with members from many different fire departments. Recently, it has come to our attention that many volunteer departments and even some combination and career departments are trying to deliver service that far exceeds what their community is paying for. While all types of departments may be following this trend, the most extreme examples of this usually are seen at the volunteer level. Although this is very admirable, in some instances it has led to disastrous outcomes.

If you read the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) line-of-duty death reports, you are all too aware of how many firefighters are injured or killed in the course of their duties.

Have you ever wondered if those injured firefighters were “taken care of” by their departments? Have you ever thought that maybe a thermal imaging camera could have made the difference in how an incident played out? Have you stopped to think that maybe the apparatus wouldn’t have gone out of control or rolled over if it had been properly maintained? Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe the individuals in command may not have received adequate training to prepare them to make the decisions necessary to bring the incident to a different conclusion?

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR

“Give them what they are paying for” is a phrase often used when firefighters are asked to “come up with” 50 to 100 percent of the money to purchase a new engine. It is something we say when firefighters tell us they are having a fund-raiser to purchase personal protective equipment or SCBAs or to build a new fire station. It’s what we tell them when they explain that they have to use their nights, weekends, and vacation time to attend training classes. On top of the previously mentioned expenses, they often have to pay their own way to attend these outside classes. It is something we teach when a department with only a small number of members tries to deliver the same level of service as a department with hundreds of firefighters. It is how we help firefighters understand that a life insurance policy to provide some level of security for their families if the firefighter is killed in the line of duty is not too much to ask for.

In most cases, the cost of personnel accounts for up to 95 percent of a department’s annual budget. This means that a department with an annual budget of $1 million will spend between $930,000 and $950,000 on personnel costs alone. This includes salary, health insurance, retirement, paid vacation and holiday time, and certification pay or assignment pay. This leaves only $50,000 to $70,000 to cover equipment, apparatus, and training.

The Lucas (TX) Fire Department is located in the Dallas-Ft. Worth metroplex and serves an area of approximately 25 square miles with a population of 5,000. This department is a typical example of a small but rapidly growing volunteer fire department. In an annual report to city leaders, the former volunteer chief of the Lucas Fire Department defined the challenges facing volunteers, noting that there were members who made more than 100 calls in each of the past several years and that most of these calls averaged between one and two hours in duration. When you factor in the other demands of the department on a person’s time, you can begin to understand the significant time contribution made by the volunteers. Lucas experienced a tenfold increase in call volume during the past 35 years; the population volume only doubled, and the service area decreased to one-half of what it was during the same time span.

As a result of the volunteer chief’s report, the Lucas city leaders decided to make the next chief’s job a part-time paid position.

During the past 15 years, the emphasis on training has been one of the biggest change factors to confront the fire service and its volunteers. Training is now a key priority and is monitored by numerous outside agencies, including insurance organizations, accreditation groups, and local/state/federal regulatory agencies. Failure to meet training requirements carries the sting of law, increased insurance costs, or legal liability in the event of property or personal injury. Also, the fire service has embraced a very strong moral obligation in a very dangerous field to provide our personnel with a high level of competence. We all are upgrading our skills to respond to the growing challenges of dealing with hazardous materials, confined space rescue, and weapons of mass destruction. These are disciplines fire departments are expected to understand and deal with should the need arise. A strong training program is required to attain these skill levels.
PREPLANNING ALSO TAKES TIME

Considerably more time is spent on the calls themselves as well as on training to prepare for these calls than was the case 20 years ago. Keep in mind that departments also are participating in preplanning, inspections, and fire safety education. These activities help enhance public safety, firefighter safety, prevention of losses to business establishments, and lower insurance costs for the municipality overall. Just like responding to emergencies, these activities also take significant time commitments from firefighters to complete them in a thorough and professional manner.

So there is plenty of work to go around. Everything from responding to emergencies, conducting and participating in training activities, facility and apparatus maintenance, conducting the day-to-day business of the organization, and participating in a myriad of fire prevention activities requires untold amounts of time. Time, which we have noted, is free.

In many jurisdictions, governing bodies and city administrators rely on the “can do” and “just get it done” attitude of firefighters. They realize that firefighters are results driven and never want to let anyone down. These positive attributes easily can be manipulated and used against unsuspecting and well-intentioned firefighters. The dedication of firefighters to the citizens they serve is one of the last true examples of neighbors helping neighbors. Unfortunately, the intentions of politicians aren’t always as noble. When it comes time to adopt a budget or hold a bond election, the needs of the local fire department are often the first items to be postponed or cut altogether. In many cases, the very people we serve are the ones who won’t support a bond election or tax increase to adequately equip or train us to do our job.

The next time your city council, county commissioners, or other local officials ask you to help raise money, tell them that you already are doing more than your part. You already are volunteering your time and your skills and risking your life. By doing that, you are saving the community the lion’s share (up to 95 percent) of the expenses involved in having a functioning fire department. Remind them that “volunteer fire department” is not a synonym for “charity.”

Finally, look these city fathers straight in the eye and ask them for their five percent. Whoever governs your community or town should provide you with adequate bunker gear, SCBAs, annual fit testing of face pieces, hydrostatically tested air bottles, a preventative maintenance program for your apparatus, radios for every firefighter, quality training, and other necessities. If for some reason they still say no, then we don’t risk our people! We don’t go inside! We don’t do more than we can do with the training and equipment they provided. At that point, you should feel free to “give them what they are paying for.”

LES STEPHENS, a 16-year veteran of the fire service, is a battalion chief with the Garland (TX) Fire Department. He previously was a volunteer with the River Oaks (TX) Fire Department. He is a certified master firefighter and an instructor with the Texas Commission on Fire Protection. He has served as his department’s training instructor and is an instructor at Collin County Community College in McKinney, Texas; FDIC; and the Texas A&M University Municipal Fire School. He has an associate’s degree in fire protection from Tarrant County Community College.

STUART GRANT, a 27-year veteran of the fire service, is a battalion chief with Dallas (TX) Fire Rescue. He is certified as a master firefighter with the Texas Commission on Fire Protection. He has served in many capacities within the department, including academy commander, hazmat officer, paramedic, and rope rescue member. He has been a H.O.T. instructor and speaker at FDIC and an instructor at Collin County Community College in McKinney, TX, and at the Texas A&M University Municipal Fire School.

[quint1officer]

How do those orange buttons work for you? We didn't program them yet, and are a little hesitant to do so.

Ours don't. Our dispatch doesn't have the capability to interact with them, so all they do is make a siren noise when you hit them. For those that use them, do they utilize a separate freq to id to your dispatch? We only have 1 monitored freq, so we didn't want to tie it up with a beacon that can't be acknowledged.

[DocVBFDE14]

Officers should be issued portables for daily use, but there is no need for line firefighters to have radios.


We issue radios to all members, including support and juniors.

So lets get this straight. A firefighter does not need a radio, but the 13 year old kid and 68 year old man handing out coffee need a radio?

[DocVBFDE14]

How do those orange buttons work for you? We didn't program them yet, and are a little hesitant to do so.


If programmed, they will automatically alert the dispatcher of a firefighter in trouble. The computer screen will gather the mobile serial number and what unit it is assigned to. While it will not be announced, the dispatcher can query the unit and be able to tell which firefighter is in trouble by employee ID, badge, shield etc for information purposes to the COD.

If activated, the dispatcher will call either the unit OIC or the IC, informing them to call dispatch Code 1 (here in Va Beach). If a member accidentally hit the emergency button, they personally should reply back, Dispatch Code 1 Error. If the member has physically removed their radio and is in rehab, and the OIC has a visual on the firefighter and it was an accident, the OIC will reply Engine 14, Code 1 Error.

If activated in a true emergency, the OIC and the IC will be called in teh same practice. Often with IC's having 12 radios crammed into their ears so that they can talk to the police, sanitation, the Red Cross, the local minister, VDot, VNG, Dominion Power, President Bush, the Pentagon and whoever else needs to fill in command slots, it is possible to miss a mayday or urgent message.

[Bones42]

Often with IC's having 12 radios crammed into their ears so that they can talk to the police, sanitation, the Red Cross, the local minister, VDot, VNG, Dominion Power, President Bush, the Pentagon and whoever else needs to fill in command slots,I didn't know you were a member of Kentland! :p

[ChiefKN]

If programmed, they will automatically alert the dispatcher of a firefighter in trouble. The computer screen will gather the mobile serial number and what unit it is assigned to. While it will not be announced, the dispatcher can query the unit and be able to tell which firefighter is in trouble by employee ID, badge, shield etc for information purposes to the COD.

If activated, the dispatcher will call either the unit OIC or the IC, informing them to call dispatch Code 1 (here in Va Beach). If a member accidentally hit the emergency button, they personally should reply back, Dispatch Code 1 Error. If the member has physically removed their radio and is in rehab, and the OIC has a visual on the firefighter and it was an accident, the OIC will reply Engine 14, Code 1 Error.

If activated in a true emergency, the OIC and the IC will be called in teh same practice. Often with IC's having 12 radios crammed into their ears so that they can talk to the police, sanitation, the Red Cross, the local minister, VDot, VNG, Dominion Power, President Bush, the Pentagon and whoever else needs to fill in command slots, it is possible to miss a mayday or urgent message.

Thanks, I was really asking how well does it work. I am just nervous that we'll have accidental activations and that it will tie up radio traffic with the signal being sent... Open mics are bad enough.

[Dickey]

Yes, every riding position should have a radio.

We were lucky 4 years ago to get a grant for an entire new radio system. New radios in trucks, repeater, portables and pagers.

We have one radio for each riding position in the trucks and officers are issued their own. We still have some radios floating around for the EMS guys too.

[allison20]

In ours and the surrounding counties, every member of the fire dept is issued a radio. This is how we are paged out, and tell dispatch who is responding.
But most members also go to scene in POV's, and the only one on the truck is the driver.

[fire0099881]

that's one thing I remember from the one presentation in baltimore from john salka, B.C. in FDNY, and the one thing he really pushed hard on was if you are going into a burning structure you better have a radio with you.

[the1141man]

Thanks, I was really asking how well does it work. I am just nervous that we'll have accidental activations and that it will tie up radio traffic with the signal being sent... Open mics are bad enough.

Radios can be programmed to open the mic for say, 15-30 seconds with the emerg button activation.

Generally, though, they just sent the radio PTT ID (whether FleetSync, MDC-1200, or another standard) along with an "emergency" status bit. Accordingly, each apparatus mobile, and each portable should be programmed with different IDs, so you can tell which radio exactly it came from.

I don't have much experience with FleetSync, but the MDC-1200 data modulation is less than .5 second. I would recommend having it programmed at end of transmission (EOT), because otherwise you'll have to wait to talk an extra second until the unit sends its ID.
It also helps eliminate horseplay and unauthorized transmissions, because you (via dispatch) can ID exactly which radio is sending what traffic. Some of the front-display models can read and decode IDs and display them, also.

[MG3610]

Don't forget to investigate working as a region on a grant application for a radio system. From what I'm told regional communication grants are very successful.

How do those orange buttons work for you? We didn't program them yet, and are a little hesitant to do so.

Chief,

For the orange buttons to work, there must be a radio capable of decoding the emergency alarm. Some radios can decode the standard radio PTT ID's but will not decode emergency alarms.

We have all of our portables set up to transmit the ID pre and post transmission, this way if all you can do is puch your mic button and aren't able to speak it will broadcast your ID. Having it at the end also makes it more likely to figure out when someone is finished talking and also re tranmits the ID in the event another ID was transmitted in the middle of the first members radio transmission.

If the system (both the transmitting and decododing radio) is programmed correctly, the first time the emergency call is received by the decoding radio, it will send an acknowledgment to the sending radio and cease transmitting the alarm.

[MG3610]

Ours don't. Our dispatch doesn't have the capability to interact with them, so all they do is make a siren noise when you hit them. For those that use them, do they utilize a separate freq to id to your dispatch? We only have 1 monitored freq, so we didn't want to tie it up with a beacon that can't be acknowledged.

If you have a CDM1550 Series radio, it can be programmed to decode and acknowledge an emergency alarm. I am also fairly certain Morotola GM300 and Maxtrac series radios will as well.

If you are using HT750/1250 series portables, I am 95 percent certain they require a revert frequency for the emergency alarm. Regardless of the frequency you are on the radio will transmit the emergency on the revert frequency that is determined in the programming software. Older Ht1000/MT2000 series radios can be programmed to transmit the emergency ID on the selected frequency or they can revert.

[jccrabby3084]

A small town with primarily mobile homes and single family residences certainly does not need a radio for every riding position and every member. As long as the members are equipped with PASS devices, and the lead member of the crews have a radio, these structures are small enough that a radio is not needed for all.

Communties with larger structures may need to consider radios for all riding posistions, however, even there, personnel should be operating, at a minimum as a 2 man team. As long as one member of the team has a radio, that should be more than sufficiant.

On the fireground we could operate with far fewer radios without a compromise in firefighter safety.



I agree with Jasper, you sir are a hypocrit. You bash other departments consistently over safety issues, even suggesting stopping at green lights. Yet, when it comes to key LIFESAVING issues, you are complacent.

Depends on structure you say. So a firegighter can't get lost in a mobile home or single family dwelling? They can't be caught in a collapse? Having a PASS makes everything OK?

Good God, please stay in the south, better yet, get out of the fire service entirely.

The part I highlighted in bold is for a very significant reason. We lost a firefighter last year in a house fire. He was part of a two man team when the floor gave way. They were seperated with the collapse, one went one way, the other went the other way. One got out, because they found a door. The other died because he was trapped in a room with no doors or windows and the only exit was blocked by debris.

Guess what moron, he was still able to call a MAYDAY because he had a radio, as well as his partner was also able to call a MAYDAY.


Point is, there should be NO DAMN EXCUSE for each firefighter not having their own radio. No one can predict the conditions that one may encounter.

[jccrabby3084]

If programmed, they will automatically alert the dispatcher of a firefighter in trouble. The computer screen will gather the mobile serial number and what unit it is assigned to. While it will not be announced, the dispatcher can query the unit and be able to tell which firefighter is in trouble by employee ID, badge, shield etc for information purposes to the COD.

If activated, the dispatcher will call either the unit OIC or the IC, informing them to call dispatch Code 1 (here in Va Beach). If a member accidentally hit the emergency button, they personally should reply back, Dispatch Code 1 Error. If the member has physically removed their radio and is in rehab, and the OIC has a visual on the firefighter and it was an accident, the OIC will reply Engine 14, Code 1 Error.

If activated in a true emergency, the OIC and the IC will be called in teh same practice. Often with IC's having 12 radios crammed into their ears so that they can talk to the police, sanitation, the Red Cross, the local minister, VDot, VNG, Dominion Power, President Bush, the Pentagon and whoever else needs to fill in command slots, it is possible to miss a mayday or urgent message.



We have the same orange buttons on the radios and do act as described here. However, they are good to alert dispatch if in a situation where police may need to be involved, such as on a med call with people being threatened. This way the party doesn't see someone calling police on the radio.

For fireground emergencies though, the button does not work well to call a mayday or an emergency situation. It is hard to activate with a gloved hand. On our channel selector switch the first and last channel are EMERGENCY channel, so no matter which way one turns the knob, they will get the EMERGENCY channel.

[quint1officer]

If you have a CDM1550 Series radio, it can be programmed to decode and acknowledge an emergency alarm. I am also fairly certain Morotola GM300 and Maxtrac series radios will as well.

If you are using HT750/1250 series portables, I am 95 percent certain they require a revert frequency for the emergency alarm. Regardless of the frequency you are on the radio will transmit the emergency on the revert frequency that is determined in the programming software. Older Ht1000/MT2000 series radios can be programmed to transmit the emergency ID on the selected frequency or they can revert.

Thank you sir, I believe I understand. We are using the 1250's. Our central center only monitors 2 freqs that are available to us, one is our regional comm, and the other is a county wide repeater. Its sorta irrelevant at this point because they don't have the interface to acknowledge the emergency radio. Hopefully in this decade they'll catch up on some technology.

[LaFireEducator]

DOVFD ...

If you read my post ... on my current department all firefighters have radios. Support members, many of whom are EMS certified, also have radios so they can give patient reports if they arrive on EMS scenes before the apparatus and ambulances. Juiors have them simply because we made the decision eliminate pagers a few years ago as the price difference between radios and pagers in now very small. Do juniors need them? No, but it's just simplier and we can stop buying pagers.

We are lucky in that we have the money to do this. Most rural departments simply don't.

Crabby ..

We disagree. If crew intergrity is maintained and the person responsible for monitering the crew does his/her job, there is no need for everyone to have a radio in most fireground situations in most small-community fire departments that protect mostly SF residences and some businesses. Crews are supposed to stay together and communicate. If members from that crew drift off ... yes, you have a problem. But that should not be occuring. That needs to be addressed with training.

The reality is that most fire departments in most small towns simply cannot afford to give all riding positions, much less all members, radios without impacting some other needed area. In a perfect world where money isn't an issue, give everyone a radio, but in the real world, where choices often have to be made, there very well may be other firefighter safety issues that need to be funded as well.

Nothing hypocritic about that. Just a real world view.

[LawFires]

We wouldn't think of sending someone in on an interior attack without turnout gear, would we? Would we send someone in with an attack line, in their bluejeans, saying "well, they've got the line and can protect themselves with water"?

Or perhaps more fairly, would we send someone in without a PASS device because, chances are, they probably won't need it?

There are two things in this thread that I find offensive. The first is the situation I'm trying to analogize to above (and yes, I agree there is a difference between turnouts and radios). It is simply unacceptable to ask someone to run into a burning building without all of the necessary safety gear that they should have. We cannot say that money is the issue preventing us from being safe...that is a slippery slope to losing more firefighters. What about the fire service isn't expensive? We need to make hard decisions about what we will and will not do. I won't go into a dangerous situation with less equipment than what I need to safely protect myself and others. From my perspective, a radio is included in that list. I don't think it is acceptable for anyone to say that something which may protect my safety is too expensive...even if it is something that I would not need in the ordinary course of events. Is there a line which must be drawn somewhere? Sure...there is a limit to how much protection we can have. Is that a hard line to draw? Yep. But if you're going into a situation where you will be unable to be heard by command if you're shouting, you need a radio. It is that simple. Guys go down in fires, at accidents, and in training, from external threats, heart attacks, and a multitude of other causes. In 2007, there is simply no excuse to not give us the ability to call for help when we need it, whether for ourselves, our buddies, or the victims of incidents.

The second argument that I cannot accept is that firefighters cannot maintain radio discipline and will be jabbering incessantly if given a radio. Frankly, if you have someone on your department who cannot maintain radio discipline, then what on earth are you doing with them at a fire scene? If you can't keep off the radio, you have no business going into a fire, driving a fire engine, or doing anything else in the fire service. Keeping your mouth shut and off the radio, except when necessary to talk on the radio, is far simpler than nearly any of the other tasks that we are called upon to perform. Again, if you cannot do that, you have no business in the fire service, either volunteer or otherwise.

[ChicagoFF]

Every guy does not have a radio here. On the engine the officer and hydrant man have one. On the truck it's the officer, one roofman, and the rear man.

[sfd1992]

Every guy does not have a radio here. On the engine the officer and hydrant man have one. On the truck it's the officer, one roofman, and the rear man.


Are you guys looking to change that or are you OK with it?

[ChicagoFF]

Are you guys looking to change that or are you OK with it?Me? I'm fine with it. I never really gave it much thought. The hydrant radio was added to the engines a couple of years ago and I suppose it is occasionally handy to have.

[RFDACM02]

DOVFD ...


We disagree. If crew intergrity is maintained and the person responsible for monitering the crew does his/her job, there is no need for everyone to have a radio in most fireground situations in most small-community fire departments that protect mostly SF residences and some businesses. Crews are supposed to stay together and communicate. If members from that crew drift off ... yes, you have a problem. But that should not be occuring. That needs to be addressed with training.

The reality is that most fire departments in most small towns simply cannot afford to give all riding positions, much less all members, radios without impacting some other needed area. In a perfect world where money isn't an issue, give everyone a radio, but in the real world, where choices often have to be made, there very well may be other firefighter safety issues that need to be funded as well.

Nothing hypocritic about that. Just a real world view.
Yes, for you, this is extremely hypocritical. Given you past rantings on safety issues, this is out in left field. Your "real world view" does not make the above statement any less hazardous. In your mind if crew integrity is maintained is there no chance one of the two members could be trapped or fall through the floor? If the radio equipped member goes through the floor, the member w/o is alone, has another firefighter down and must leave to report it! Great scenario!
The second argument that I cannot accept is that firefighters cannot maintain radio discipline and will be jabbering incessantly if given a radio. Frankly, if you have someone on your department who cannot maintain radio discipline, then what on earth are you doing with them at a fire scene? If you can't keep off the radio, you have no business going into a fire, driving a fire engine, or doing anything else in the fire service. Keeping your mouth shut and off the radio, except when necessary to talk on the radio, is far simpler than nearly any of the other tasks that we are called upon to perform. Again, if you cannot do that, you have no business in the fire service, either volunteer or otherwise.
In my area as I noted, the county bought a few hundred portables and gave them out. My dept? No issue, we have absolute discipline. It's a bunch of other yokels that suddenly were raised to some ridiculous level of self-importance that feel everyone needs to know they're every movement when a call goes out. We have fought to make other chief's take care of the issue as we're on a county-wide dispatch freq. to little avail. I couldn't agree more on the useless radio drivel, but the reality is that we are having a difficult time making a bunch of 50 call a year vollie chief's enforce rules on their members. It certainly isn't an excuse to not have radios, yet a caution that issuing personal radios must be done along with sound radio policies and enforcement of them.

[LaFireEducator]

Yes, for you, this is extremely hypocritical. Given you past rantings on safety issues, this is out in left field. Your "real world view" does not make the above statement any less hazardous. In your mind if crew integrity is maintained is there no chance one of the two members could be trapped or fall through the floor? If the radio equipped member goes through the floor, the member w/o is alone, has another firefighter down and must leave to report it! Great scenario

You see it as hypocritical. I don't. Yes, something may happen. The floor may collapse, the ceiling may come down or something else may happen that may require assistance. The fact is, if the crew is operating together and constantly communicating, the crew officer/leader will know something has happened to one of thier members and be able to radio for assistance. If the firefighter down is the one with the radio thier PASS will self-activate. The firefighters who do not go through the floor can also activate thier PASS devices. In a small or meduim sized residence, this will get assistance as other crews will be operating close enough to hear the PASS. There are ways of getting help. I have been doing this long enough in small and meduim sized towns to know that this is not unsafe.

The reality is that most fire departments in most small towns simply cannot afford to give all riding positions, much less all members, radios without impacting some other needed area. In a perfect world where money isn't an issue, give everyone a radio, but in the real world, where choices often have to be made, there very well may be other firefighter safety issues that need to be funded as well.

This is from my last post. There are departments out there that can afford to buy radios for all members without impacting other areas of thier budgets. There are thousands of departments out there who can't. So where do you suggest these departments take the money from? Purchasing PPE? Purchasing PASS devices? Training? Vehicle Maintanence? New, reliable hose and tools? All of these areas impact firefighter safety everyday as much, or in most cases, more than radios for each firefighter.

Just a few weeks ago there was a thread about mandating bailout systems for all firefighters in New York state. Radios for all members for into the same catagory. Nice thought but not grounded, in most cases, fiscal reality.

I stand by my statement that radios for each firefighter isn't a need, it's a luxury that some departments can afford but most can't. I have served in these departments that very much struggle day to day and have far greater and far more basic needs that radios for each member.

When you can tell me how these departments, many of whom don't even have money for pagers and still rely on a siren for notification, are supposed to come up with the extra money for the radios, I'll agree that I'm a hypocrite. Until then, I see myself as viewing this issue through a real world perspective.

[ChiefKN]

[B]I stand by my statement that radios for each firefighter isn't a need, it's a luxury that some departments can afford but most can't.

If this forum was around 30-40 years ago, I wonder if the same comment would've been made about SCBA's.

I bet it would've.

[DocVBFDE14]

Thanks, I was really asking how well does it work. I am just nervous that we'll have accidental activations and that it will tie up radio traffic with the signal being sent... Open mics are bad enough.


What this guy said, ha http://forums.firehouse.com/showpost.php?p=860242&postcount=38

The radio's down here are digital. An accidental activation has never "locked" up a Tac Channel. The signal is all computer to computer (not sure of the word I am looking for). The entire sequence from dispatch receiving and calling the person, and person calling back takes very little air time.

[LaFireEducator]

Ken ..

I don't put radios in the same catagory as SCBA's, but you very well might be right.

In terms of basic firefighting protective equipment, I would rank the needs as follows:

1. Servicable gear including Hood.
2. Sufficiant Current SCBA for all interior and roof personnel.
3. PASS devices for all SCBA.
4. Radios for all riding positions.
5. Radios for all members on the fireground.
6. Bailout equipment for departments who routinly operate in 3+ stroy buildings.

I don't see how you can address #4 and #5 until you have addesssed 1,2 and 3. There are thousands of departments that struggle with the basics of 1-3 everyday. There is simply no way that you can say a radio is more important than gear, current SCBA and PASS devices. I think it's a fair statement to say that most, if not all, would agree with that.

In the cases of those departments that are able to provide the basics in personal protective equipment to thier members, and can afford to purchase radios for all members, they should be purchased.

My point is that there are thousands of departments where the funds are simply not available and that is not a realistic option.

[HotTrotter]

It has been my opinion that each and every fire fighter who goes into a burning building should have a radio. Anything could happen. The radio could fail, the person with the radio could fall through the floor or have debris fall on him. What if the person with the radio drops it or looses it somehow. As a minimum, each SCBA should be equipped with an emergency distress signal that transmits to a master control panel on the exterior.

[jccrabby3084]

Yes, for you, this is extremely hypocritical. Given you past rantings on safety issues, this is out in left field. Your "real world view" does not make the above statement any less hazardous. In your mind if crew integrity is maintained is there no chance one of the two members could be trapped or fall through the floor? If the radio equipped member goes through the floor, the member w/o is alone, has another firefighter down and must leave to report it! Great scenario

You see it as hypocritical. I don't. Yes, something may happen. The floor may collapse, the ceiling may come down or something else may happen that may require assistance. The fact is, if the crew is operating together and constantly communicating, the crew officer/leader will know something has happened to one of thier members and be able to radio for assistance. If the firefighter down is the one with the radio thier PASS will self-activate. The firefighters who do not go through the floor can also activate thier PASS devices. In a small or meduim sized residence, this will get assistance as other crews will be operating close enough to hear the PASS. There are ways of getting help. I have been doing this long enough in small and meduim sized towns to know that this is not unsafe.

The reality is that most fire departments in most small towns simply cannot afford to give all riding positions, much less all members, radios without impacting some other needed area. In a perfect world where money isn't an issue, give everyone a radio, but in the real world, where choices often have to be made, there very well may be other firefighter safety issues that need to be funded as well.

I stand by my statement that radios for each firefighter isn't a need, it's a luxury that some departments can afford but most can't. I have served in these departments that very much struggle day to day and have far greater and far more basic needs that radios for each member.




Thank you RFDACM02 for seeing what my post was about. You nailed it with your response.

LA...you are still without a clue here. You keep saying if the two stick together etc there is no reason for each FF to have a radio. Yet, my example was not a WHAT IF, it was REALITY. That actually happened and a FF died. During a search both FF's had a radio and one was on the wall the other one held the the FF's boot doing a search. The floor collapsed and one went one way, one went the other.

Both were able to call a MAYDAY. You BS answer is saying that if together there is no need for two radios. Well if such a situation happens again, how can the one without a radio be sure help is on the way, or that the one with a radio is still conscious and able to call a MAYDAY.

Go ahead and hide behind the budget excuse. This is a firefighter safety issue (one you tout so much). A radio is a crucial piece of equipment for a fire department. Instead of finding excuses as to why NOT to have one, a dept should be finding ways to make it so everyone has one.

[Chauffer6]

You see it as hypocritical. I don't.

Actually, it would appear that quite a few people in this thread have called you on your hypocrisy, not just a singular "you". You can add me to the list. :rolleyes:

[HotTrotter]

Ken ..

I don't put radios in the same catagory as SCBA's, but you very well might be right.

In terms of basic firefighting protective equipment, I would rank the needs as follows:

1. Servicable gear including Hood.
2. Sufficiant Current SCBA for all interior and roof personnel.
3. PASS devices for all SCBA.
4. Radios for all riding positions.
5. Radios for all members on the fireground.
6. Bailout equipment for departments who routinly operate in 3+ stroy buildings.

I don't see how you can address #4 and #5 until you have addesssed 1,2 and 3. There are thousands of departments that struggle with the basics of 1-3 everyday. There is simply no way that you can say a radio is more important than gear, current SCBA and PASS devices. I think it's a fair statement to say that most, if not all, would agree with that.

In the cases of those departments that are able to provide the basics in personal protective equipment to thier members, and can afford to purchase radios for all members, they should be purchased.

My point is that there are thousands of departments where the funds are simply not available and that is not a realistic option.

I believe that NFPA already requires integrated PASS devices in SCBA. Why not also include integrated radios with each SCBA as well. A PASS alarm only makes a noise and flashes. A better solution is the accountability systems currently on the market that will monitor the status on a PC screen, perhaps at the command post. But realistically, with a radio, if I get separated I can call for help. And it happens all the time, just read the NIOSH reports. Also, we aren't talking about radios for everyone, just for the guys who go interior. In most cases you would need an additional 4 or 5 radios, that cost is minimal. And for departments with low budgets they should consider including this kind of stuff in a grant request.

[5alarmcooker]

_________________

[Binaroundawhile]

I think it was ChiefKN that said it, (sorry if I misquote) if this was 40 yrs ago this would be about SCBA. Fifteen ago, first gen. PASS. There will always be something (I hope) new to help protect us and make our job safer. Some will have it immediately, some not. All the "preachers" need to study the lesson. We do what we can with what we got. Know any units still running apparatus that are featured in museums, I do. We donated Nomex coats and pants to a dept. that was still wearing cotton duck and you'da thought we gave 'em bags of gold. They operate a 1946 GMC that looks & runs better than a lot of 90's rigs. They have one radio and it is on a desk in the station. Their air packs are 5 "new" MSAs with intergrated PASS.
OH, and by the way, they cover about 110 sq. miles as their first due. They go to fires, and the fires get put out.

Maybe in 10-15 yrs we will be on here typing (or maybe it'll be telepathic by then) about how if you ain't got "X", you shouldn't fight fires. Makes good reading though.

[Dave1983]

Point is, there should be NO DAMN EXCUSE for each firefighter not having their own radio. No one can predict the conditions that one may encounter.

Bravo sir, bravo...And sorry to hear of your loss.

With the costs involved with radios these days (ours are $3500 ea), I can understand why some small, rural, very small budget volly FDs might not be able to afford a radio for all. But if your FD does have the money, there is no excuse for not having them. None.

We have one per seat on each rig and staff officers have their own. Its been that way since I signed on in '83.

[RFDACM02]

Bravo sir, bravo...And sorry to hear of your loss.

With the costs involved with radios these days (ours are $3500 ea), I can understand why some small, rural, very small budget volly FDs might not be able to afford a radio for all. But if your FD does have the money, there is no excuse for not having them. None.


I want to note that we use $250 radios and have had no failures in 6 years! So the cost can be a factor but doesn't have to be. We had much more trouble with more expensive radios before buying these.

In fact one of our more passionate members realized the need for everyone to have a radio around the same time he realized he needed a charitable contribution for tax purposes (lobster fisherman), so he bought 12 to outfit some of the seating positions who were not officers (already equipped).

[ChiefKN]

They operate a 1946 GMC that looks & runs better than a lot of 90's rigs. They have one radio and it is on a desk in the station. Their air packs are 5 "new" MSAs with intergrated PASS.
OH, and by the way, they cover about 110 sq. miles as their first due. They go to fires, and the fires get put out.

I would guess that most (read as greater than 50%) of fire companies out there are using some sort of outdated equipment. It might be scba's, pass, apparatus, ladders, ppe).

Isn't that a tragedy? Why is that allowed to continue? Why do departments have to run a bingo to buy ppe?

There was a great article (I believe it may have been quoted in this thread) about this very topic.

Can we start with one very simple goal?

EVERY firefighter who goes into a house on fire should have PPE that meets todays standards. Helmet, hood, coat, pants, boots, gloves, pass.

Next steps would be SCBA and a RADIO.

THAT is what AFG should be about... I understand that there are a lot of apparatus out there that is old, and we should get to that too. But personal protection should be first.

[neiowa]

I believe that NFPA already requires integrated PASS devices in SCBA. Why not also include integrated radios with each SCBA as well. A PASS alarm only makes a noise and flashes. A better solution is the accountability systems currently on the market that will monitor the status on a PC screen, perhaps at the command post. But realistically, with a radio, if I get separated I can call for help. And it happens all the time, just read the NIOSH reports. Also, we aren't talking about radios for everyone, just for the guys who go interior. In most cases you would need an additional 4 or 5 radios, that cost is minimal. And for departments with low budgets they should consider including this kind of stuff in a grant request.


I agree every FF should have a radio. If you can't afford to buy then go thru DOD surplus for civilian model Motorolas.

The cost of adding a radio to a SCBA is certainly not trivial. We purchased Scott interface kits and as I recall were around $500ea + radio. Interior atk rated ICOMs ran a bit over $700ea. Thats going to be on top of the new SCBA at $7000ea. Thats serious $ even if you're spending fed grant $.

New SCBA

[LaFireEducator]

Posted by ChiefKN

Can we start with one very simple goal?

EVERY firefighter who goes into a house on fire should have PPE that meets todays standards. Helmet, hood, coat, pants, boots, gloves, pass.

Next steps would be SCBA and a RADIO.

And that is my point.

I was never opposed to every firefighter having a radio. I am saying it's not necessary given the more basic needs that so many departments have.

If you noted my original post, I specifically stated that small town and community departments do not need a radio for every firefighter. These are the departments that most often lack the most basic needs of gear, PASS and current SCBA. These are the departments that simply do not have the money for radios without, more often than not, neglecting the more basic elements of PPE.

[ChiefKN]

And that is my point.

I was never opposed to every firefighter having a radio. I am saying it's not necessary given the more basic needs that so many departments have.

If you noted my original post, I specifically stated that small town and community departments do not need a radio for every firefighter. These are the departments that most often lack the most basic needs of gear, PASS and current SCBA. These are the departments that simply do not have the money for radios without, more often than not, neglecting the more basic elements of PPE.

"If you noted my original post, I specifically stated that small town and community departments do not need a radio for every firefighter."

Wait, are you saying they don't need a radio or cannot afford a radio?

If they have the money then you agree that every firefighter should have a radio?

I'm trying to understand, but your post is still confusing me.

[ChicagoFF]

Isn't that a tragedy? Why is that allowed to continue? Why do departments have to run a bingo to buy ppe?
One reason is that nfpa and manufacturers keep insisting that we buy more and more expensive gear with more trivial, bs options. Who really needs an scba with a hud and voice amp?????

Can we start with one very simple goal?

Safe, durable, simple gear that is far more affordable.

[BLSboy]

Who really needs an scba with a hud and voice amp?????

I have both on my SCBA Mask. The HUD and Voice amp was bought with FIRE ACT grant money. The HUD is standard in all SCBA Masks we have, and the voice amp goes to the most active FFs. I do not feel that the HUD should be standard. I mean, how hard is it to take a quick look down at your gauge? I find myself never really checking that HUD anyway, I prefer to just use the gauge. That has a much less chance of failing.

The HUD and Voice Amp should be optional, not standard, unless the companies can substancially reduce the pricing of it.

There is NO reason for a FF to be wearing a SCBA without a radio of some sorts. I know we all cant afford the 3000 dollar 800 mhz trunked, microwaving, grasscutting radio, but there is no reason a cheap 100-200 dollar VHF with a mic cant be bought, and placed by every seat.

[ChicagoFF]

There is NO reason for a FF to be wearing a SCBA without a radio of some sorts. I know we all cant afford the 3000 dollar 800 mhz trunked, microwaving, grasscutting radio, but there is no reason a cheap 100-200 dollar VHF with a mic cant be bought, and placed by every seat.It's fine if you feel you need it and want to buy them, but I personally don't see the point. I'll be radioless at work in the morning and Thats just fine with me! :cool:

[st42stephenAFT]

It's fine if you feel you need it and want to buy them, but I personally don't see the point. I'll be radioless at work in the morning and Thats just fine with me!

But will you be 'just fine' with it when you get separated from your crew in a fire, and can't relay that to anyone? What happens then? You're on your own, and they have to search for you without any idea of where you are or if you're ok. They have to go off your last known location. Personally, I'd rather have a radio, irregardless if I use it at a fire or not.

[ChiefKN]

One reason is that nfpa and manufacturers keep insisting that we buy more and more expensive gear with more trivial, bs options. Who really needs an scba with a hud and voice amp?????

Can we start with one very simple goal?

Safe, durable, simple gear that is far more affordable.

YES and this is what the AFG money should be buying. NOT very expensive optional equipment like a digital trunked supersecret radio systems.

[LaFireEducator]

Chief ..

I'll try to clarify.

In a perfect world, every firefighter would have a radio. The world is not perfect. There are thousands of smaller FDs in this country that make choices every day, and for them, a radio for each member sits well down on the list of basic priorities such as gear, SCBA and in some cases, fuel for the trucks. Sure there may be money out there, but in many cases it's a matching grant program, and often the matching money simply isn't available within the department.


As far as need, those same departments are fighting fire primarily in mobile homes, SF residences and small commercial structures. I stand by my statement that if they are trained to maintain crew intergrety and are trained to operate together, and are trained to turn on thier PASS and activate thier PASS when in trouble, the need for each firefighter having thier own radio in these communties is minimal.

When you start comparing the need for a radio in those unique situations vs. the need for gear, PASS devices, current and SCBA and fuel in everyday situations, it's clear to see what the priorities are.

[HotTrotter]

I have both on my SCBA Mask. The HUD and Voice amp was bought with FIRE ACT grant money. The HUD is standard in all SCBA Masks we have, and the voice amp goes to the most active FFs. I do not feel that the HUD should be standard. I mean, how hard is it to take a quick look down at your gauge? I find myself never really checking that HUD anyway, I prefer to just use the gauge. That has a much less chance of failing.

The HUD and Voice Amp should be optional, not standard, unless the companies can substancially reduce the pricing of it.

There is NO reason for a FF to be wearing a SCBA without a radio of some sorts. I know we all cant afford the 3000 dollar 800 mhz trunked, microwaving, grasscutting radio, but there is no reason a cheap 100-200 dollar VHF with a mic cant be bought, and placed by every seat.

Not hard at all, but it becomes hard to read when you are visually challeneged. Besides, our gauges don't glow in the dark. Oh yea, one more thing, the HUD cost about as much as the gauge, there is no cost savings.

[HotTrotter]

Chief ..

I'll try to clarify.

In a perfect world, every firefighter would have a radio. The world is not perfect. There are thousands of smaller FDs in this country that make choices every day, and for them, a radio for each member sits well down on the list of basic priorities such as gear, SCBA and in some cases, fuel for the trucks. Sure there may be money out there, but in many cases it's a matching grant program, and often the matching money simply isn't available within the department.


As far as need, those same departments are fighting fire primarily in mobile homes, SF residences and small commercial structures. I stand by my statement that if they are trained to maintain crew intergrety and are trained to operate together, and are trained to turn on thier PASS and activate thier PASS when in trouble, the need for each firefighter having thier own radio in these communties is minimal.

When you start comparing the need for a radio in those unique situations vs. the need for gear, PASS devices, current and SCBA and fuel in everyday situations, it's clear to see what the priorities are.

But having every interior firefighter with a method to communicate to the outside world should be a goal. I've seen more than one occasion when a department waste money on trinkets or trucks that are way more than what they need. It seems the latest trend around here is for everyone to get a quint. The city departments around here already have them and they are available with mutual aid. Quints are something you need right away, they usually roll in after the initial attack. And they usually get used when there isn't much to save. Waiting an extra 10 minutes for that fire that needs one every 5 years doesn't seem like much of an issue.

[pletch]

too many Radios equals problems, we have one rule if you go in you have to keep in contact, on our jump seat in front of it sits a radio, pack goes on, radio in pocket on state fire, fast simple and no matter what there contact with the interior crew now. Safty first

[ChicagoFF]

Personally, I'd rather have a radio, irregardless if I use it at a fire or not.
That's fine, I'm not saying tons of radios are bad. We just don't do it. It would be very, very unlikely for you to get separated from your crew. The only members who do initially go on their own - rear and roof on the truck and hydrant on the engine - have radios. The rest all operate in very close proximity. When you have 20 guys on a house fire, it's hard to get more than 5 feet from the rest of the jagoffs! :p

[carolinablue]

I think that if budget allows then every seasoned firefighter should have a radio. I don't think that new people or probationary fire fighters need one if they are not allowed to do interior attack then they really don't need a radio, so radio's should be given out to members of the FD who are cleared for interior operations. If budget doesn't allow this then have certain number of radios on the trucks and require that only the people who are in the immediate hot zone take a radio.

[randsc]

Ken ..

I don't put radios in the same catagory as SCBA's, but you very well might be right.

In terms of basic firefighting protective equipment, I would rank the needs as follows:

1. Servicable gear including Hood.
2. Sufficiant Current SCBA for all interior and roof personnel.
3. PASS devices for all SCBA.
4. Radios for all riding positions.
5. Radios for all members on the fireground.
6. Bailout equipment for departments who routinly operate in 3+ stroy buildings.

I don't see how you can address #4 and #5 until you have addesssed 1,2 and 3. There are thousands of departments that struggle with the basics of 1-3 everyday. There is simply no way that you can say a radio is more important than gear, current SCBA and PASS devices. I think it's a fair statement to say that most, if not all, would agree with that.

In the cases of those departments that are able to provide the basics in personal protective equipment to thier members, and can afford to purchase radios for all members, they should be purchased.

My point is that there are thousands of departments where the funds are simply not available and that is not a realistic option.

I'm not going to get into the whole hypocricy issue.

I will say that I find the above post, viewed in isolation, pretty well irrefutable.

[LawFires]

One thing I haven't heard anyone answer is how much gear do we need? I suggested that Radios are essential and we should not accept "they cost too much" as a reason for not having radios. There have been a number of responses identifying gear which is important for firefighting, and several which have posted a hierarchy of importance. Where do we draw the line on what is and is not essential?

For example, turnout gear was listed as item #1. If we cannot afford turnout gear, do we still go in?

SCBAs as item #2. If we cannot afford SCBAs, do we still go in?

Why is it that we get to Radios, and we can suddenly draw a magic line in the sand that they are too expensive? That it is acceptable to go without, if you cannot afford them? And if that is the conclusion being drawn, what equipment is essential? What can we not do without? How do you make that justification or distinction?

[ChiefKN]

One thing I haven't heard anyone answer is how much gear do we need? I suggested that Radios are essential and we should not accept "they cost too much" as a reason for not having radios. There have been a number of responses identifying gear which is important for firefighting, and several which have posted a hierarchy of importance. Where do we draw the line on what is and is not essential?

For example, turnout gear was listed as item #1. If we cannot afford turnout gear, do we still go in?

SCBAs as item #2. If we cannot afford SCBAs, do we still go in?

Why is it that we get to Radios, and we can suddenly draw a magic line in the sand that they are too expensive? That it is acceptable to go without, if you cannot afford them? And if that is the conclusion being drawn, what equipment is essential? What can we not do without? How do you make that justification or distinction?

Good questions.. But I think it's a rather easy thing to justify the difference.

If you do not have PPE and an SCBA in almost all cases, you will die or suffer serious injury if you are doing an interior fire attack these days.

However, in most cases (read as >98%) of fires if you don't have a radio, you can function fine and not have an injury or death. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, but is it a deal breaker? No. In fact, most firefighters are doing it day in and day out.

Also, there are other means of communication. Activate your pass, tell your buddy (if you are sharing a radio), relying on air horns...etc.

FOR THE RECORD> I'm not advocating the above in place of radios, merely answering your question.

I would hate for the fire service to decide not to enter a structure fire because they don't have a radio... however, they should NOT enter without PPE and SCBA (that is a deal breaker).

[MPVFD2046]

Ours don't. Our dispatch doesn't have the capability to interact with them, so all they do is make a siren noise when you hit them. For those that use them, do they utilize a separate freq to id to your dispatch? We only have 1 monitored freq, so we didn't want to tie it up with a beacon that can't be acknowledged.


When the button is depressed the radio id pops up on the screen indicating an emergency and that unit needs help ASAP. For example you are inside fighting a house fire and you become disoriented and need the RIT team to get you. By activating the button the radio id appears and the dispatcher who is monitoring the channel SHOULD transmit an alert tone to get everyone's attention and stop all operations until the unit that transmitted the emergency is contacted then operations to handle that emergency proceed or if it is accidental the radio is turned off then on to clear the emergency and operations continue. That is basically how it works with those orange buttons. I hope this helps ya out a bit.

[voyager9]

For example, turnout gear was listed as item #1. If we cannot afford turnout gear, do we still go in?

SCBAs as item #2. If we cannot afford SCBAs, do we still go in?

Why is it that we get to Radios, and we can suddenly draw a magic line in the sand that they are too expensive?

Easy. I can still breathe and not burn to death if I don't have a radio.
There's only one firefighter on the fire ground w/out PPE and SCBA.. his name is IC.

[BLSboy]

Congratulations. You just showed us how little you really know about the fire service. Do you even make an aggressive interior attack? Or is it just Lts. and above doing the fire attacks? What happens if you do down? I take it you didn't hear about the PASS malfunctions and low volume levels. If I hear a PASS going off, WHY is that Brother down? Is he unconscious? Out of air? Entangled? Is his partner down? Under something that collapsed on him? What happens if I loose water pressure? Yank 3 times for higher pressure? Or was that 3 times for lower pressure? Oh shoot, I forget.
No, wait, lemme bust out my Nextel, and beep beep the Chauffer and tell him to raise the pressure. :rolleyes:
You don't give a radio to every member. You assign a radio to each seat or pack.
Your problem is DISCIPLINE, and TRAINING.
I suggest reading some NIOSH reports that state that radios, and lack of mics for radios has been a contributing cause of some LODDs.
If you fail to do that, may I suggest a dept sponsored burial plot? Cause if you buy early, you get savings.....:rolleyes:

This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

[Ghostrider157]

I have been reading through this thread, and I realize it is old, however there is no reason why every firefighter should have a radio. You talk about interior firefighters needing radios, well that is what their PASS is for. Every interior firefighter should have one of those. Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one. Dispatchers do not care how many portables are responding to scenes. They really care about the chief and assistant chief, and then trucks. If you want every firefighter to be able to communicate then I suggest making phone number lists. Also on the not of All Calls, where a scene has gotten big, and more personnel are needed then I suggest Alpha numeric pagers. They hook up to a computer, and you can set up page lists. Even some dispatch centers can be equipped so that dispatch can page for a crew to respond to quarters when all the crews on duty are out.

I personally have a portable, because I am an EMT that gets put on call all the time. I am allowed to use it whenever I want. I have signed on to dispatch about three times since I got it months ago.

[ChiefKN]

I have been reading through this thread, and I realize it is old, however there is no reason why every firefighter should have a radio. You talk about interior firefighters needing radios, well that is what their PASS is for. Every interior firefighter should have one of those. Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one.

You are blaming technology for a training and discipline problem.

So if, by your way of thinking, firefighters were activating their pass and abusing it, we should eliminate them?

PASS is for emergencies, radios will hopefully help you avoid emergencies.

[CaptainGonzo]

I have been reading through this thread, and I realize it is old, however there is no reason why every firefighter should have a radio. You talk about interior firefighters needing radios, well that is what their PASS is for. Every interior firefighter should have one of those. Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one. Dispatchers do not care how many portables are responding to scenes. They really care about the chief and assistant chief, and then trucks. If you want every firefighter to be able to communicate then I suggest making phone number lists. Also on the not of All Calls, where a scene has gotten big, and more personnel are needed then I suggest Alpha numeric pagers. They hook up to a computer, and you can set up page lists. Even some dispatch centers can be equipped so that dispatch can page for a crew to respond to quarters when all the crews on duty are out.

I personally have a portable, because I am an EMT that gets put on call all the time. I am allowed to use it whenever I want. I have signed on to dispatch about three times since I got it months ago.

I read your post twice and my first reaction was what the frack?



You don't get the concept at all.

Every firefighter having a radio means a radio at every position on the rig, not each and every firefighter having his or her own portable radio.

PASS devices are not communications devices.

PASS devices cannot communicate orders from the incident commander to the firefighters operating on the roof or inside on a hose line.

PASS devices can't relay information about deteriorating conditions inside or outside of a burning building.

Portable radios have emergency buttons that can be monitored by dispatch to let them know which firefighter is in trouble, so the IC can clear the channel and communicate directly with the member and direct the RIt tream to their location.

If the radios are "abused" in your area, it's time for your FD's administration to set up SOP's for radio communications.

Phone lists? What a novel concept! By the time you get through the list, the building that was burning is now a smouldering pile of rubble inside of a foundation.

Alphanumeric pagers? Great for alerting personnel that there is an incident that requires a response, assuming that there is service in your area.

PS: FD's large and small, career and volunteer have been using alphanumeric paging systems for years to contact personnel for a variety of reasons.

[AFDFS24C]

Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one. Dispatchers do not care how many portables are responding to scenes. They really care about the chief and assistant chief, and then trucks. If you want every firefighter to be able to communicate then I suggest making phone number lists.

I agree that radio discipline is a training issue that needs to be addressed if it is a problem.

If all you have in your area are extremely small houses where you can see in every window then maybe some members can do without a radio. If your dept. has to make an interior attack on a sizeable structure let's hope you don't ever get separated from your officer and are unable to find your way out. I would rather be able to let somebody know my situation and my approximate location while I'm looking for a way out instead of just activating my PASS and hoping somebody can find me.

Are there times when some members operate independently of officers? What if they need to communicate with command? Run to the command post or find someone with a radio and do a face-to-face? What if they can't?

I realize that not all depts. can afford it but radios for every riding position are extremely beneficial and should be a high priority.

[FFYagour88]

i think every firefighter on the fire ground should have one if they see something that IC doesn't they can report it faster

[nmfire]

Gonz, I agree with everything you said. Especially the part about "What the frack"

[CaptainGonzo]

Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one.

So.. the dispatchers run the Department?

No wonder it's fracked.

[nyckftbl]

I have been reading through this thread, and I realize it is old, however there is no reason why every firefighter should have a radio. You talk about interior firefighters needing radios, well that is what their PASS is for. Every interior firefighter should have one of those. Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one. Dispatchers do not care how many portables are responding to scenes. They really care about the chief and assistant chief, and then trucks. If you want every firefighter to be able to communicate then I suggest making phone number lists. Also on the not of All Calls, where a scene has gotten big, and more personnel are needed then I suggest Alpha numeric pagers. They hook up to a computer, and you can set up page lists. Even some dispatch centers can be equipped so that dispatch can page for a crew to respond to quarters when all the crews on duty are out.

I personally have a portable, because I am an EMT that gets put on call all the time. I am allowed to use it whenever I want. I have signed on to dispatch about three times since I got it months ago.

Good thing his PASS alarm worked, huh. :rolleyes:

Dr. Harry M. Archer Medal
Firefighter James F. Mills, Ladder Company 176

March 4, 2003, 2150 hours, Box 55-1658, 1636 Pitkin Avenue, Brooklyn

Appointed to the FDNY on May 9, 1993. Brother is FF Richard Mills, Jr., Engine 248; father is retired Captain Richard Mills, Sr., Ladder 166; and uncle is retired Deputy Chief Joseph Mills, Division 3. Member of the Emerald and Holy Name Societies. Cited for bravery once previously. Resides in Sayville, Long Island, with his wife, Susan, and their son, Griffin, and daughters, Taylor and Madison.

Pitkin Avenue is a major shopping street in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. Among the renovations are alterations to these nearly hundred-year-old buildings. With the turmoil of the ‘60s and ‘70s, many of the building owners took drastic measures to ensure security. Many of these modifications have remained in place. Any veteran Firefighter who worked in that area will say, “A job on Pitkin Avenue is never easy.”

At 2147 hours on March 4, 2003, Box 1658 was transmitted. Within two and a half minutes, the first units arrived on the scene and were met with a medium smoke condition emanating from numerous occupancies. 1636 Pitkin Avenue was a two-story taxpayer-type building, housing four separate stores. Lines were stretched and forcible entry began.

FF James Mills, the chauffeur of Ladder 176, positioned his apparatus and began assisting in opening roll-down gates. Some 22 minutes into the operation, FF Robert Petrarca of Ladder 120 transmitted a mayday.

FF Mills went down the stairs to the cellar, put his facepiece on and began following the line into the cellar. He encountered Engine 227 members, who were operating their line into a common hall that ran the length of the stores. There were many radio transmissions from the units, but most alarming was the transmission from the inside team of Ladder 120, stating they were nearly out of air.

After communicating with Engine 227, FF Mills, knowing full well that time was critical, proceeded to crawl toward the front of the cellar. Due to the complexity of this occupancy, most of the members were searching the cellar of the corner occupancy (jewelry store) and not the cellar where FF Petrarca was lost.

FF Mills began crawling into this cellar. This was not an open, orderly area; this was a Brownsville cellar, filled with many obstacles and debris, which had built up over many years. The sprinklers were operating, so the heat build-up was not intense, but a highly charged atmosphere of dense smoke and carbon monoxide permeated the cellar.

This low-heat atmosphere allowed FF Petrarca to go further into the cellar area. It actually put him in grave danger since he quickly became disoriented and crawled in the opposite direction of the only stairway out of the cellar. The search rope of Ladder 120 ended at an unused staircase; ironically, this was the same point of the breach made later in the incident.

FF Mills, without the protection of a hand-line, began his search. No one realized the wall of the common hall did not go to the ceiling, which allowed the fire to cross into the cellar area where FF Mills had crawled, searching for the missing member. The only line (Engine 227) in the cellar was back at the stair area.

After searching for nearly six minutes and covering a distance of approximately 80 feet, FF Mills located FF Petrarca, who was face down and unconscious in two to three inches of water. FF Mills gave an Urgent message over his handie-talkie, notifying the Incident Commander that he had located the missing member.

Due to the stress and physical effort it took to make it to this point, the air in FF Mill’s SCBA was so low his vibralert was going off, but he continued to transmit his location, while trying to drag the unconscious member--who weighed more than 200 pounds--toward the stairs. The air in FF Mills’ mask ran out and he was forced to remove his facepiece. He, too, began breathing the contaminated and CO-heavy air.

Fortunately, members of Ladder 176 made a breach in the cellar wall, not too far from FF Mill’s location. This allowed members of Rescue 4 to enter, locate and assist FF Mills with the downed member. Together, they dragged FF Petrarca to the breach. (The breach was about half the distance to the stair.)

Shortly after the removal of FF Petrarca from the cellar area where FF Mills found him, there was a collapse. Both Firefighters would have been buried under it.

FF Mills’ act of bravery was accomplished under extremely hostile conditions. As Deputy Chief Daniel Butler wrote in his endorsement: “With all this going on, FF Mills may have left and communicated FF Petrarca’s position once safe outside himself. Instead, he decided he would leave when they both left. This saved critical time for FF Petrarca and prevented more severe damage from lack of oxygen and the real possibility of his death.” For his heroic actions, FF James F. Mills is awarded the Dr. Harry M. Archer Medal.—JTV

[nyckftbl]

I have been reading through this thread, and I realize it is old, however there is no reason why every firefighter should have a radio. You talk about interior firefighters needing radios, well that is what their PASS is for. Every interior firefighter should have one of those. Radio's are abused in my area, and according to our dispatcher only people who are Lieutenants and above can carry and talk on one. Dispatchers do not care how many portables are responding to scenes. They really care about the chief and assistant chief, and then trucks. If you want every firefighter to be able to communicate then I suggest making phone number lists. Also on the not of All Calls, where a scene has gotten big, and more personnel are needed then I suggest Alpha numeric pagers. They hook up to a computer, and you can set up page lists. Even some dispatch centers can be equipped so that dispatch can page for a crew to respond to quarters when all the crews on duty are out.

I personally have a portable, because I am an EMT that gets put on call all the time. I am allowed to use it whenever I want. I have signed on to dispatch about three times since I got it months ago.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/media?id=5981927

How about this one from a couple days ago? The burned FF hit the mayday button on his radio, and was able to transmit his last known location. He was pulled out through a 2nd floor window by another FF. If you want, you can go visit him in the hospital and tell him he shouldnt have a radio.

[TheFNG]

Maybe its because I am fairly new but I don't get it.

My vollie dept is 'radio rich' if you will. Here, we have radios for each riding position on rigs + spare and all the members have a portable as well. We use the minitor pagers as well for principal member alert system. (pagers have a nice 30 second transmission save feature and vibrate, radios we have don't)

How we use them - officers and trucks notifiy dispatch of en-route, on-scene etc. Members/FF if its sounds like a large incident will notify the officers on our talk group so they have an idea of incoming manpower. This is generally for reported structure files - MVA's with entrapment etc. Smaller incidents and in house medicals - FF just respond to the station/scene and don't tramsmit the en-route.

We don't have problems with people who like to hear themselves on the radio. That, its seems, is training and SOP. We also can guarentee everyone on the fireground has a working radio, either their issued portable on one from the trucks.

Why wouldn't you want everyone equipped for communications? (I understand the funding issue limiting it)

[bbishop1317]

We have recently taken possession of about a dozen radio communicators that replace the amplifiers on our SCBA masks. At first I was a bit skeptical because I thought there would be too much fireground chatter to pick through at a typical structure fire. It has, however, been a pleasent surprise and has exceeded everyone's expectations.
Our commincators operate on low wattage frequencies that only communicate with others on the fireground. Dispatch and the trucks have no way of hearing the individual ff. However, the IC has a radio that will pick up and transmit both the ff frequencies and the normal fd frequency dispatch and the trucks operate off of. I know this system has it's limitations, but it is a huge improvement from the time, up until recently, when the only firefighters inside a structure with outside communications was one of 4 officers, either of 2 captains or 2 lieutenants.
Some observations from the handful of fires we have had this system in place:
Improved morale, increased confidence, quicker and easier interior operations, and lower excitement among ff, which leads to less air useage.
It just makes you feel better hearing the IC talking to the interior officers and knowing whats going on without having the capt having to shout at you to tell you to advance or pull back or whatever.

[jeremy1213]

in our county every body has a motorola xt2500 or 5000 300 in all at a price of 3500.00 each and this don't include all the ones in the trucks and cars