Rear Lights Flashing

[KyleWickman]

Every once in awhile I see fire apparatus driving around with just the rear lights flashing. I have seen it quite a bit lately. What is the reason for this? It seems to confuse drivers.

[firefighterkid]

We have talked about doing this but since there is no switch just for the rear lights we leave out signal masters on the “warn” pattern at all times when we are driving, whether its on a call or just returning to the hall or whatever. Simple reason is that we may be stopping or slowing down at any time for what may seem like no reason to the guy that is driving behind us but in reality its due to a call or something of that nature. It also adds more awareness to the person driving behind us.

[DrParasite]

i heard this was a traditional thing, when guys used to ride the back step, to leave the rear warning lights on for their safety. And to make other drivers aware of what was on the back of the ambulance.

and of course, even though we don't ride the back step anymore, we haven't bothered to change out way of thinking about that rule :rolleyes:

[Bones42]

We don't to it as much as we used to, but it is still done sometimes. Simply to draw more attention to the apparatus and keep drivers aware.

[Resq1scnd2none]

I'd say (like has been said) its for warning. Even with them I have lost count on how many times some jackoff will try and sneak behind the rig, when slowing down to begin trying to back into the station (with full lights going).

[truckmonkey42]

Our rear directional warning lights have their own switch separate from the emergency master. Drivers may just be forgetting to turn them off.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

Also, we use them to keep idiots from tailgaiting. Actually seems to work. You'd think we'd have the same issue as with Rescq1 but we don't.

[cozmosis]

How many of us complain that people pay no attention to our lights and sirens? If we want people to pay attention to them, it seems to me that it would be in our best interest to only use them when needed -- like when responding to emergencies or when the apparatus is a traffic hazard.

[Dave1983]

How many of us complain that people pay no attention to our lights and sirens? If we want people to pay attention to them, it seems to me that it would be in our best interest to only use them when needed -- like when responding to emergencies or when the apparatus is a traffic hazard.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I would think if your really worried about someone hitting you in the rear you would include something like a third brake light on your rigs. I know all the transit buses around here have a pair of amber LEDs in the center under the rear windows that come on when they let off the gas. Gets your attention...

[DeputyMarshal]

How many of us complain that people pay no attention to our lights and sirens? If we want people to pay attention to them, it seems to me that it would be in our best interest to only use them when needed -- like when responding to emergencies or when the apparatus is a traffic hazard.

Bingo! Give that man a cee-gar! :D

[BoxAlarm187]

How many of us complain that people pay no attention to our lights and sirens? If we want people to pay attention to them, it seems to me that it would be in our best interest to only use them when needed -- like when responding to emergencies or when the apparatus is a traffic hazard.

That's the exact reason we're wiring our arrow-sticks into the master warning switch - to prevent having it flash when the warning lights aren't on. We sure don't need to make the public immune to seeing our warning lights.

[RFDACM02]

Another vote in Cozmosis corner. Emergency lights are for emergencies, hazard lights are for hazards. Like BoxAlarm our 2 newest units have traffic advisors and all future ones will as well.

[nmfire]

Driving around with flashing lights on when you aren't on a call is causing more harm than good. You are accomplishing nothing.

[the1141man]

Driving around with flashing lights on when you aren't on a call is causing more harm than good. You are accomplishing nothing.

Well, you are accomplishing one thing, assuming you don't have LED lights:
Wearing out the bulb life, so they'll die when you really need them. ;)

[DCFDCAR5]

FYI, in NJ this is quite common.

39:4-92.1. Fire department vehicle returning to fire station; flashing red light
It shall be lawful for any fire department vehicle when returning to its fire station from an emergency call to display a flashing red light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of at least 500 feet to the rear of the vehicle and no driver of any vehicle other than one on official business shall follow any such vehicle displaying said light closer than 300 feet.

L.1966, c. 289, s. 1, eff. Oct. 6, 1966.

[DeputyMarshal]

L.1966, c. 289, s. 1, eff. Oct. 6, 1966.

Most likely a leftover from the days of riding the tailboard.

IMHO, the fact that it's legal in some jurisdictions doesn't make it a good idea. ;)

[johnny46]

I leave my traffic bar on random flash all the time. If it makes people reluctant to get close or pass, that's a bonus.


It confuses drivers? They live confused.

[st42stephenAFT]

Let's see... the only times I see rear lights on -

1) We're going to fireworks detail and have people riding in the hose bed.
2) The driver forgot to turn them off


But on some trucks, the arrow stick is permanently on, but I don't know if that counts as "rear lights".

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

How many of us complain that people pay no attention to our lights and sirens? If we want people to pay attention to them, it seems to me that it would be in our best interest to only use them when needed -- like when responding to emergencies or when the apparatus is a traffic hazard.

I know some departments whose apparatus are a traffic hazard no matter what the situation.

[ChiefKN]

I don't see it as a problem. I don't have a policy one way or the other...

When I was operating, if the vehicle was not in service (just me on board and not available), I would shut them off.

I like the previous comment that drivers "live confused".

However, on any new apparatus, we are blacking out the forward facing section of the rear rotators. So that people ahead of us don't get confused and pull over.

[RFDACM02]

However, on any new apparatus, we are blacking out the forward facing section of the rear rotators. So that people ahead of us don't get confused and pull over.

This is also a good idea to keep the driver's visibility when looking in the mirrors at night!

[FlyingKiwi]

Just a thought

Using anything other than normal road lights on the way back from a call is bollocks.

You are not responding to an emergency, you are returning to your station, as part of the normal traffic flow.

You are just another vehicle presumably operating under the same road rules as "Joe Citizen".

The only time outside a call when we switch on all of our beacons is when reversing the truck, and that is done with at least one guide for the driver.

[DeputyMarshal]

1) We're going to fireworks detail and have people riding in the hose bed.


Please tell me you're joking.

[Paddiegrunt]

I always had them on if they was anybody on the tailboard like when we were doing hydrants

[ChiefKN]

You are just another vehicle presumably operating under the same road rules as "Joe Citizen".

In my state, school buses have a white flashing strobe on the roof.

DOT (department of transportation) trucks have yellow flashers on all the time.

Tell me the harm again? That people will think that the truck in front of them is going to a fire? So what? They are behind us!

If it offers a little bit more safety for our firefighters then I fail to see the harm.

[NJFFSA16]

FYI, in NJ this is quite common.

39:4-92.1. Fire department vehicle returning to fire station; flashing red light
It shall be lawful for any fire department vehicle when returning to its fire station from an emergency call to display a flashing red light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of at least 500 feet to the rear of the vehicle and no driver of any vehicle other than one on official business shall follow any such vehicle displaying said light closer than 300 feet.

L.1966, c. 289, s. 1, eff. Oct. 6, 1966.

1966...outdated and stupid.

[Bones42]

Please tell me you're joking.
Nope, not joking at all. Why? Are you going to tell me it's dangerous and people are going to die? Do you have any idea of how and/or when we do this? Do you?

Or are you just going to through out some general statements without any relation to what WE are doing?

[PhillyTruck18]

There isnt something more important in your life than wether or not to have rear lights on?

[wag11c]

Been a long time, but I believe FDNY did this in the 60's. I remember them coming back from jobs with the lights on and the bell clanging. I lived not to far from a house in Brooklyn, as a child when I heard the bell I knew they were coming back , not going, nonetheless, I still ran to the street corner to watch them go by.

[DeputyMarshal]

Nope, not joking at all. Why? Are you going to tell me it's dangerous and people are going to die? Do you have any idea of how and/or when we do this? Do you?

Or are you just going to through out some general statements without any relation to what WE are doing?

Okay. By all means, share with us the circumstances where having people riding in the hose bed for "fireworks detail" is a good idea.

We're going to fireworks detail and have people riding in the hose bed.

[BKDRAFT]

Never seen the fire department practice this. However, when I worked on an ambulance I did this quite often. Here is one example. We never had opticoms on the bus, only fire used them in the county I worked in. So when I was approaching an intersection code 3 and looked down the road I could see weather or not all lanes were blocked ahead at the upcoming intersection. At this time I would shut down the siren, forward facing lights, and leave the rear lights on so cars would not pull up along side me. When the light turned green all my lights would come back on as well as the siren. Where I worked there were public transportation lines down the the center of streets and also large curbs that prevented you from going into the oncoming lanes. In California if you approach a red light intersection that is blocked and a car pulls through the red to let you through and is hit you were liable.

[Ha11igan]

Aren't they separate from the signal and brake lights?

I thought they were called Fresnel lights.

[hwoods]

Aren't they separate from the signal and brake lights?

I thought they were called Fresnel lights.

OK, several things from this thread........

Fresnel is a Brand name of Lens. The light would be made by Federal, Whelen, etc.

We have lights on, facing the rear, all the time. Never had a problem.

KiWi, can you learn to cuss in American? We have no clue what "Bollocks" means.

There is nothing wrong with riding in the Hosebed. Just don't do it while the vehicle is in motion.

Having your vehicle wired so you can't have TOTAL Control over every light, all the time, is a bad idea.

[Bones42]

Okay. By all means, share with us the circumstances where having people riding in the hose bed for "fireworks detail" is a good idea.
Simple. A few kids sit on the hose in the center of the hosebed. FF's also sit there, with radio, and make sure they stay seated. We travel a whopping 10 miles an hour about 6 blocks.

Oh, the horror. :rolleyes:


And if you care, yes, the Town is ok with it. And yes, the insurance company is also.

Why aren't you?

[johnny46]

In California if you approach a red light intersection that is blocked and a car pulls through the red to let you through and is hit you were liable.
That is the stupidest damned traffic law I've ever heard of. The politician/lawyer who came up with that should be shipped to Singapore in a crate full of bubble gum and unflushed toilets filled with heroin.

[DeputyMarshal]

That is the stupidest damned traffic law I've ever heard of.

Sounds like pretty standard "area of influence" liability theory. It's not uncommon and there may very well be precendent for it in your state.

In general, the operator of any vehicle in emergency response mode has more liability than John Q. Driver, not less. If the actions of the emergency vehicle operator have a reasonably predictable influence on other drivers' behavior, the operator of the emergency vehicle is responsible for it.

[MarcusKspn]

That is the stupidest damned traffic law I've ever heard of. The politician/lawyer who came up with that should be shipped to Singapore in a crate full of bubble gum and unflushed toilets filled with heroin.

We have the same law when I worked for EMS in a big city. If we pull up on a red stop light, all lanes are blocked by vehicles, and there is no way to use the left side of the road (Concrete barrier or trees in the median),then we shut down and advise dispatch to that effect. Once the light is green we light up and proceed.

Tell me this Johnny: If you read the near-miss, and LODD reports it seems that half the time we (people trained on how to respond during an emergency, driving defensively, on a big truck with lots of lights and siren) cannot go through a red light without getting hit or hitting somebody else.

So why do you expect Joe Citizen, in his VW Beetle, to be able to proceed through a red light without killing himself or others, just because you are riding his a$$ at the red light trying to physically push him away with the Federal Q?

Thats why Opticoms rule, red light problem solved.

[Dickey]

Huh, never heard of that before. Doesn't happen around the Midwest here. Seems like a stupid idea to me but then again, we don't have the traditions like you guys do on the east coast.

Only time you see it happen here is by mistake. Before you get too far down the road, someone will call you on the radio and tell you your lights are on.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

I do hope everyone is on the same page when we say "rear lights flashing". I hope everyone realizes we are referring to mostly amber traffic adviser type lights only. We are not talking about your rear warning rotars mounted on top of the truck near the end of the hose bed. Something like what's mounted on the back of this apparatus:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0w4rPXi4E_E

[Dickey]

Either way, amber rotator or arrowstick......doesn't happen around here.

My opinion it shouldn't be on because traffic gets used to seeing it and get immune to it. Drivers are stupid enough without our help.

[Bones42]

I do hope everyone is on the same page when we say "rear lights flashing". I hope everyone realizes we are referring to mostly amber traffic adviser type lights only. We are not talking about your rear warning rotars mounted on top of the truck near the end of the hose bed. My bad then. We don't have arrow sticks on the rear and our amber flashers are turn signals (and no, they are not left flashing).

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

Either way, amber rotator or arrowstick......doesn't happen around here.

My opinion it shouldn't be on because traffic gets used to seeing it and get immune to it. Drivers are stupid enough without our help.

Or maybe they see it and even in non-emergency situations and think to themselves "That's a fire truck, they may be doing something important...maybe I need to stay the f**k back!" Since we don't want to run the arrow sticks, I guess we should remove the Keep Back decals too?

[Dickey]

Or maybe they see it and even in non-emergency situations and think to themselves "That's a fire truck, they may be doing something important...maybe I need to stay the f**k back!" Since we don't want to run the arrow sticks, I guess we should remove the Keep Back decals too?

Or maybe people see that and think "Oh gee, there is a fire truck." Then after further review they will think "huh, that truck isn't doing anything, I can pass him." After a while, they see the lights and think "they aren't doing anything anyway, they have those lights on all the time."

Not sure how it is in your neck of the woods but here, drivers are extremely stupid. It would just cause more confusion on top of their normal confusion and cause complacency.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

My neck...your neck, they are all stupid.

[MarcusKspn]

Who had a red neck?

[Dickey]

My neck...your neck, they are all stupid.

Must be something about getting your drivers license. Must have to trade in your common sense...:)

[formerOHvolly]

None of the departments in my area leave any warning lights operating when not responding or operating at the scene, with the exception of my local department (not where I used to volunteer, having moved since then) which outfits its fire apparatus with a pair of constantly lit spotlights, one white on the right and one red on the left, on the top of the beavertail or the crossbar aimed at a spot about 50 feet to the rear of the vehicle where it would shine in the eyes of a driver pulling up on the back of the engine or truck.

Now, IMHO, (and as the new guy I know it doesn't have any weight) I believe using warning lights when not operating on an emergency basis would only serve to desensitize other drivers to them and could lead to a mishap.

It would be better to convince your local LEOs to leave the circular pastries alone and enforce the "Stay Back 500 Feet At All Times" Law, or whatever the regulation may be in your state on a regular basis. That coupled with adding that message to your "Go To The Right For Sirens and Lights" campaign would do more than anything else to spread the word to the public.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

Must be something about getting your drivers license. Must have to trade in your common sense...:)

Seems like they put a moratorium on drivers test's around here.

[ChiefKN]

The lights do not desensitize drivers.

[BoxAlarm187]

The lights do not desensitize drivers.

So says you. I say they do. Who's right? :confused:

[the1141man]

Or maybe they see it and even in non-emergency situations and think to themselves "That's a fire truck, they may be doing something important...maybe I need to stay the f**k back!"

Yeah, in California, the thought pattern goes more like:
"That's a fire truck...well, no matter what they're doing, I'm more important!!!!" along with the spoken, "Hey, get that F&(!IN POS OUT OF MY WAY!!!! *honk, honk, honk, hooonnnnnnnkkkk!!!*"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefKN
The lights do not desensitize drivers.

So says you. I say they do. Who's right?

ChiefKN is.
WHY, you ask? Because you cannot remove sensitivity that was never there to begin with! ;)

[ChiefKN]

So says you. I say they do. Who's right? :confused:

That was exactly my point, thanks for making it!

You can't claim one way or the other with any accuracy, so the claim is invalid.

I can say that I don't think they desensitize, but so what? Reverse is true as well.

So tell me what harm there is to this practice?

[DCFDCAR5]

1966...outdated and stupid.
Well, I don't see a bunch of NJ volunteers sending letters to congressmen trying to change it like they did the absurd blue light law, now do I? Maybe we can start a campaign in Wildwood next week?