Federal Government issued ID program?

[AZFF25]

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=56223&sectionId=46

Good idea or bad idea? I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this.



AZFF

[cozmosis]

The concept isn't a bad thing. However, if the federal government is in charge of it... It's bound to fail at some point. And, look at our money... If humans design it (in this case, an ID card) then someone else is bound to copy it.

I think it's important that this not become a career vs. volunteer debate. By them saying that they want to keep "volunteers" away... I don't take that to mean volunteer firefighters, which is what one might thing upon first glance.

[the1141man]

Hm...create a Federal standard resource ID card... great idea!

BUT...

Let's see, the way the Federal bureaucracy works, it'll be years before they agree upon a design, and many more years before it proliferates down to local municipalities. Don't forget--millions of dollars to invest in design prototypes.
AND
Let's not forget that there's no universal "national standard" of training and proficiency for emergency response/public safety workers, other than wildland FFs.

Which reminds me...did I mention the National Wildland Coordinating Group has been doing this same recommended thing for years with the IQCS "Red Card" program???

So that "smart guy in the Bush Administration" just reinvented the wheel. Yep, smart guy indeed. ;)

[KevinFFVFD]

I think the system is a good idea, but at the same time, like others have said, it will take time and money to complete the project.

Anyways, the thing I do not really agree with is allowing untrained people into a “hot zone” to perform certain tasks that a professional usually takes care of. These volunteers should only be allowed to run things like first aid stations, food kitchens, passing out water and Gatorade, giving back rubs to rescuers :-), and so forth.

BTW, how do you add the smiley thingies into the messages?

[hwoods]

I think it's important that this not become a career vs. volunteer debate. By them saying that they want to keep "volunteers" away... I don't take that to mean volunteer firefighters, which is what one might thing upon first glance.


Sorry Bro. It's been a Career/Volunteer debate since day one. When the Feds first started "calling around" to see what jurisdictions in the Metro DC/Baltimore area would be interested in being involved in the Pilot Program, they said that they would only allow Career members to participate. Several of the area's Largest Departments not only said No, they raised hell that anyone would even think of such an idea. "Everybody or Nobody" was the point that was thrown back at the Feds. I'm not sure that any meaningful progress has really been made, since seeing past the political posturing is kinda difficult.

[GodSendRain]

I don't think they're talking about volunteer firefighters. They're talking about good-natured members of the public who just show up out of the blue to lend a hand. I just don't really understand how it would work. I mean, are these volunteers going to show up for every disaster, or just the really big stuff like Katrina. Are they going to make I.D. cards for people who might use them for one or two big catastrophes and that's it? Sounds like a waste if that's the case. If someone else read into it differently then feel free to correct me.

I also agree that, if done at the national level, there will be speedbumps.

Supporters say the ID cards could be checked at a disaster area with a card-reader device and used to verify a person's unique skills. For example, if police officers have been trained to handle hazardous materials, officials at the scene could deploy them to an area where their skills would be best put to use.

Okay, that sounds good at first, but I get a new certification every month. Is the federal government really expected to continuously update my 'skills' along with hundreds of thousands of other volunteers? I know how long it takes for me to get my certificates back, and I don't think it's the post office's fault.

[KnightnPBIArmor]

The Feds can't keep someone one from crossing the border without a Green Card or passport, and now they propose on trying to keep someone from crossing a fire line without a volunteer ID card? :rolleyes:

[HotTrotter]

The Feds can't keep someone one from crossing the border without a Green Card or passport, and now they propose on trying to keep someone from crossing a fire line without a volunteer ID card? :rolleyes:

Now that is funny right there!! Of course now I need windex for my screen.

But let me see. The military has a ID system run by the government and it works very well. And if I remember correctly, these id cards carry you medical records as well. It's actually a pretty good idea. You can put each persons credentials and abilities on the card, of course they would have to be based on National Standards (which some will argue don't exist). You could also put pertinent health information as well as contact info on the card. And heck, they could also be used to improve accountability as well. It would obviously take money and I'm thinking at least 7 digits worth.

[the1141man]

Now that is funny right there!! Of course now I need windex for my screen.

But let me see. The military has a ID system run by the government and it works very well. And if I remember correctly, these id cards carry you medical records as well. It's actually a pretty good idea. You can put each persons credentials and abilities on the card, of course they would have to be based on National Standards (which some will argue don't exist). You could also put pertinent health information as well as contact info on the card. And heck, they could also be used to improve accountability as well. It would obviously take money and I'm thinking at least 7 digits worth.

Actually, adopting existing CAC design or something very similar (Common Access Cards--the new DoD ID cards) to that purpose shouldn't be too hard. The problem is that exactly what level of information to put on the RFID chip...oh, and of course the fact that there's security concerns about RFID chips to begin with. ;)
After all, put your whole life history on there and ZAP walk by some hacker with a homemade RFID scanner.... you get the idea...

[KnightnPBIArmor]

Actually, adopting existing CAC design or something very similar (Common Access Cards--the new DoD ID cards) to that purpose shouldn't be too hard.

I am in the Reserves and I can tell you that getting the Id cards up and running to function as CAC cards to log onto computers, etc. has been a Charlie Foxtrot, at least around here.

[the1141man]

I am in the Reserves and I can tell you that getting the Id cards up and running to function as CAC cards to log onto computers, etc. has been a Charlie Foxtrot, at least around here.

LOL You wouldn't happen to be Army Reserve, would you?

Trust me, it's just as big a SNAFU on the Guard side. Especially with this crap that apparently now you're going to need a CAC reader to access AKO soon? WTFO? *sigh*

[EFD840]

It will sound like a wonderful idea until the next major disaster, at which point it will fail miserably.

Write it down now. It will be worse than Katrina - they'll be turning away qualified assets because of flaws it the system while Billy Joe and Bubba are on NBC news driving around checkpoints, snatching folks from danger, and making the government once again look incompetent.

[the1141man]

... Billy Joe and Bubba are on NBC news driving around checkpoints, snatching folks from danger, and making the government once again look incompetent.

Yeah! Making the government look incompetent is the government's job, not theirs!!!

;) :D

Sad that the Federal government's one core competency is...well...making itself incompetent. ;)

[sts060]

In principle it's not a bad idea.

I've heard that we'll be issued such cards... sometime. The "we" being FF/EMS/LEO in the greater D.C. area. I volunteer in Montgomery Co., which has about 1000 career and a few hundred active volunteers. Since in this co. we have a single incident command structure, certain minimum training standards, etc., as well as automatic mutual aid agreements with D.C. and other MD counties (plus Fairfax, VA), there should be no issues with qualifications or playing nice with other jurisdictions.

The trick is, as usual, the practical implementation. Such big events are chaotic, cover a large area, and it's difficult to control access to them, standard ID or not. There needs to be some serious thinking done, by people who have been in the trenches on such events, on how it would really work - both identifying trained personnel and dealing with random people showing up to help.

And not just thinking about it. You know, there are people who regularly attend our MCI drills as victims, and many of them are quite convincing playing their roles. This proposed system needs a drill with not just victims but also a lot of people told to just show up and try to freelance help. Then we'll see some of the practical challenges involved.

Moreover, the system needs to do more than just sort people out and tell the unofficial ones "no, thanks". There needs to be a way to put them to use around the scene, even if not at the scene. My guess is that it will take a lot more work to flatly turn away - and keep away - people bent on helping than it will to help them self-organize and find a way to contribute. Especially (as mentioned in the article) if they perceive "official" channels to be taking too long to do simple things:Many of those volunteers angrily dispute the notion they were a burden. They insist that in many instances they were able to deliver respirators, hard hats, and protective boots to workers when no one else seemed able.

[KyleWickman]

For those that live in NJ.

I wonder how many points it will be for renewing you license
:) :p

[hwoods]

In principle it's not a bad idea.

I've heard that we'll be issued such cards... sometime. The "we" being FF/EMS/LEO in the greater D.C. area. I volunteer in Montgomery Co., which has about 1000 career and a few hundred active volunteers. Since in this co. we have a single incident command structure, certain minimum training standards, etc., as well as automatic mutual aid agreements with D.C. and other MD counties (plus Fairfax, VA), there should be no issues with qualifications or playing nice with other jurisdictions.

The trick is, as usual, the practical implementation. Such big events are chaotic, cover a large area, and it's difficult to control access to them, standard ID or not. There needs to be some serious thinking done, by people who have been in the trenches on such events, on how it would really work - both identifying trained personnel and dealing with random people showing up to help.


You are, of course, Correct. Reportedly, Chief Carr was one who was quite upset with the Feds when this thing first came out. He and the Baltimore County Chief (don't know his name) Flat out said "Everyone WILL participate, Career AND Volunteer, or we're not doing it". My hat is off to two Chiefs, both of Large Combination departments, who are trying to make the system work equally for everyone in it.

[Eng34FF]

Originally Posted by the1141man
Actually, adopting existing CAC design or something very similar (Common Access Cards--the new DoD ID cards) to that purpose shouldn't be too hard.

I am in the Reserves and I can tell you that getting the Id cards up and running to function as CAC cards to log onto computers, etc. has been a Charlie Foxtrot, at least around here.

I'm a civilian who works for DoD. We finally have the system working here, kind of. When you have to renew the card, expect to have issues for at least a day, if not more. I can see an issue with people who get new certs every six months. They would probably need a new card before they get the old one updated.

[HotTrotter]

Actually, adopting existing CAC design or something very similar (Common Access Cards--the new DoD ID cards) to that purpose shouldn't be too hard. The problem is that exactly what level of information to put on the RFID chip...oh, and of course the fact that there's security concerns about RFID chips to begin with. ;)
After all, put your whole life history on there and ZAP walk by some hacker with a homemade RFID scanner.... you get the idea...

If I remember correctly, the data is supposed to be encrypted. So getting the data is one thing. Reading it is something else.

[Binaroundawhile]

Two words - Social Security

Here's an idea for the Fed. Stay home! unless WE ask for YOU. Then come only with what WE ask for. Nothing causes a large incident to become FUBAR quicker than bringing more government into it. That is because there are always "catches" to Federal help. "We will bring the help, but then we want to be in charge." THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TO ANY RESPONDER, ANYWHERE, THAT DOES THE JOB FOR A FEDERAL AGENCY. Troops do what they are told.
Until the Federal Government figures out how to balance it's checkbook every year without taking more of MY money to do it . . . stay out of what Americans do best. Help other Americans !

[the1141man]

If I remember correctly, the data is supposed to be encrypted. So getting the data is one thing. Reading it is something else.

Yeah...and as any Crypto type can tell you, once you have the info, no matter how well ciphered it is, it's only a matter of time till you start making breaks. Trust me, there are some very determined crackers (malicious "hackers") out there....and not all of them are merely bored kids and college students looking to snub their nose at the government.
The best, first line of defense is not letting them get the info in the first place.

I really fail to see why an IQCS card needs to have a chip anyways. All it really needs is your pic, physical description, and qualifications. It doesn't need to have your whole medical history, or your NOK contacts or anything... your agency should have that stuff on file, and it can be faxed, emailed, etc, if needed.

I'm a civilian who works for DoD. We finally have the system working here, kind of. When you have to renew the card, expect to have issues for at least a day, if not more.

Yeah...lol I feel sorry for the poor AGR/Tech guys working S-1 and recruiting, the heavy-duty admin stuff, on a full-time basis. I hear the Guard intranet is finicky at best nowadays, and since they made CACs the only way to log on, well, better hope you don't leave it in yesterday's uniform shirt at home. ;)

[Bones42]

My County has spent the last year (at least) trying to set something like this up, but only involving law enforcement, ems, and fire agencies. A year later, it's still a joke. They tried using it at a recent wildfire. And then they gave up. If a single county can't manage it, I'm not betting on something larger being able to do it.


Time for embedding chips into babies.

[n2dafyre]

I have done vast research on many different systems that we were looking into for accountability purposes at first. Then we decided that it would be a good idea to card every employee within the municipality. The next step was to go county wide to all FD's. The money was provided by the Task Force. At an absolute minimum, every dept. is now running on the same accountability system. We sat the chiefs down and agreed upon a list of Quals. such as FF1 and FF2 and so on. It is up to the dept. to keep records up to date. What we are learning is that if the records aren't being kept up, that you may not be asked to a location if needed. The searches are done by qual not by personnel. If you need FF2's only those names show up. Granted there are some snafu's but all in all it works well. I'm not here to advertise so I will leave the particular system name out. If you want it IM me.

At the very least, this could prepare responders for events such as Katrina. When our dept. was asked to send personnel, we had to submit paperwork with quals, and be accepted prior to departure. It took 3 days to get accepted, then another 3 in Atlanta to be processed and issued ID Cards prior to hittin New Orleans. If this system were in place, we could have cut that down time out of the equation because our quals would have already been on hand. These records can also be maintained at the state level so when the calls from the feds go out, the state agaencies can find the personnel it needs.

This system can and will work but it has to managed from the bottom up.

[n2dafyre]

A sfar as encrypted data, it is to a point. Sensitive info is on a bar code as well as medical. There is also on the card small qual identifiers that can tell you at a quick glance what quals a person has in case you do not have a reader. The medical information can also be relayed to a hospital prior to patient arrival which could help in the case of meds and allergies. Sorry for the second post, but I forgot this part.

[ChiefKN]

I implemented our own program.

We have Fire Department issued ID's with photo.

On the front is your photo and the town where you live directly under your name (this is important when it is verified with your driver's license).

On the back embedded into the plastic card it says, "must have current year hologram". We issue new security hologram stickers. So we don't have to keep reprinting cards or if you leave and fail to turn in your ID, then it will not be good after current year is over. This verifies that you are a member of the fire department.

It also has printed on it, "ID must be verified with state driver's license". The state spent all kinds of money producing some slick license that is pretty tamper proof. Why should I pay to duplicate that in an ID? This verifies WHO you are.

Pretty cheap and while it's not a "smart" card, if we waited for the county or state, then we would have nothing. It's not ironclad, but it will work for now.

[hwoods]

I implemented our own program.

We have Fire Department issued ID's with photo.

On the front is your photo and the town where you live directly under your name (this is important when it is verified with your driver's license).

On the back embedded into the plastic card it says, "must have current year hologram". We issue new security hologram stickers. So we don't have to keep reprinting cards or if you leave and fail to turn in your ID, then it will not be good after current year is over. This verifies that you are a member of the fire department.

It also has printed on it, "ID must be verified with state driver's license". The state spent all kinds of money producing some slick license that is pretty tamper proof. Why should I pay to duplicate that in an ID? This verifies WHO you are.

Pretty cheap and while it's not a "smart" card, if we waited for the county or state, then we would have nothing. It's not ironclad, but it will work for now.


The good Chief has proved the point that most of us have been pushing for years. "Leave us alone, we'll come up with something that works, FOR US, AT A REASONABLE COST." Thanks Chief. :)

[HotTrotter]

I would actually say this should be a National initiative. Fire Fighters are often sent from one locale to another. 9-11-2001, Katrina ( as well as many other hurricanes), and many of the wildfires out west come to mind. Around here we had snow emergencies and ice storms where people went to other regions. The key here is interoperability.

the1141man
Yeah...and as any Crypto type can tell you, once you have the info, no matter how well ciphered it is, it's only a matter of time till you start making breaks. Trust me, there are some very determined crackers (malicious "hackers") out there....and not all of them are merely bored kids and college students looking to snub their nose at the government.
The best, first line of defense is not letting them get the info in the first place.

No data is ever 100% secure. The question you need to ask is what is the value of the data. Sure a cracker could get your card, but you need to ask why would they want it? Breaking a cryptanalysis is not something that is done easily and it isn't done on a PC, and there are very few in the world who can do it. The information we are dealing with is not secret or top secret, it is at best Sensitive But Unclassified (SBU). There is a network of users out there all sharing their computers who are trying to break the current government AES algorithm. So far they haven't been able to do it. And it was only recently that the DES algorithm was broken. In reality, encrypting the data on the card is more about piece of mind for the holder. There isn't any really critical informatio9n on the card that would require that kind of protection.

[ChiefKN]

I would actually say this should be a National initiative. Fire Fighters are often sent from one locale to another. 9-11-2001, Katrina ( as well as many other hurricanes), and many of the wildfires out west come to mind.

I've been deployed to many wildland fires and to Katrina. Funny thing? Noone ever asked for my ID...Never!

I hope this will change, but even at the airport, they wanted to see my DL.

Here is a funny story. We drove to Katrina to assist as a decon task force. When our time was up, we switched crews. This meant flying one-way from Baton Rouge back to NJ.

We are all in line at the airport, and we all showed our nice fancy ID's... and we got pulled from the line for EXTRA SCREENING! Why? Because we all had one-way tickets... LOL

[ogomez]

What I read was the need to filter those showing up to these disasters (9/11,Katrina). You have the well meaning civilian who needs to be used in out-of-the-way but useful areas, the skilled craftsmen (carpenters, steel workers, heavy machine operators) who can be used ASAP, the semiqualified rescue personel and the qualified special rescuers. Also, those who have access to much needed supplies/equipment when the red tape prevents the government (gasp!) from getting these things to the scene. There needs to be a screening/coordination of resources not just an elite club that excludes those not wearing the same hat. This country does have so many resources that are needed in times of disaster, those are the times when our EMS/fire & rescue systems are strained and pushed beyond their breaking points. This is where an on scene coordinator can screen and put to use those who arrive with needed skills or materials. From experience I saw my fellow PF&R FF's go when called to Katrina spend 2 days in Atlanta then be sent off to pass out paperwork to refugees at shelters! Not what skilled FF need to be doing. At the same time 4 of our FF went on their own and hooked up with an army reserve unit and spent a week performing real rescues.

[Dickey]

I agree, all or nothing.

I think its a big waste of money. The way the Fed spends money on stupid stuff, this will be a multi-million dollar spenditure for them to research, develop, and let this trickle down to locals. Great idea but money wasted.

Spend it on border patrol or giving FD's and PD's the equipment and personnel they need instead of a feel good warm fuzzy of a picture ID.

[ogomez]

If anything the federal ID should go to task force members, state specialty ID's go to certified FF (USAR,collapse, Trench, special rescue) then other FF get another ID. This allows command a better picture of exact rescources at hand.
Then have a coordination center for all others who arrive on scene and they go to a staging center if they are qualified. Command then can use them as needed.

[n2dafyre]

Not a bad thought, but why would you put troops on the ground that you may not use when you can hand pick the ones you need? There may be a time for additional types of resources but why clog the system until the time arises. Katrina proved that too many people to help can be a burden just as easy as too few. It is the self-dispatched that we are trying to get rid of. What if they go on their own and get hurt? Are they gonna whine to the Gov't for compensation when they weren't asked for in the first place.

[ogomez]

Your right but there will be self initiating in any disaster. Better to have a coordination and screening of who comes. If you don't need them then they go if you are stretched thin or there is a need for what they (civilian or professional) have to offer then control them.

Also keep in mind that in Kobe Japan most of the rescues could not be done by local FD's, they were incapacitated by the earthquake. Also, in (9/11 much needed supplies came from the private sector but not coordinated, they were on site before the feds could get them there). If the big one hits a major city all hands will be needed. Better to keep them in the system and under a watchful eye.