"Stuff Happens"!

[Batt18]

Going over a few threads lately I have noted a general attitude displayed by a large number of posters here (that is also commonly reflective of the fire-ground in general) that where structural fires don't always go well for us, there is this attitude of 'well .... stuff happens'. Sometimes this 'stuff' leads to loss of lives.

My view (and that I am sure of many others here) is that very rarely does 'stuff happen' on the fire-ground that cannot be prevented, or reversed, or countered, or avoided, with a bit of pre-planning and a common sense approach, through carefully cultured risk management principles. Perhaps even more influential is the nonchalance that so often breeds in the minds of those tasked with the general routine of repeated responses to emergency incidents that turn out to be false alarms or minor situations.

Over and again, firefighters may respond to 'routine' situations and 'stuff happens' .... only this stuff doesn't lead to anything more than perhaps a few words back at the firehouse. However, over time, this 'stuff' might be our only warning of an impending catastrophic failure where things really do go badly wrong and lives are lost.

Here is a link (http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/rosedale.pdf) to a report into a minor fire where 'stuff' happened.

No one was killed or badly injured and the fire went out. However, we might see plenty of potential for a disaster occurring here, or perhaps in a larger structure, in our own back yard!

All the things we have talked about recently, in relation to high profile fires, is evident at this 'minor' fire ....


Nonchalence
a failure to provide a water supply provided for the attack engine/s
poor accountability
no coordination between ventilation and fire attack
freelancing
poor incident command
poor communications
a lack of risk management policy
non compliance with documented SOPs
following 'unwritten' SOPs
lack of awareness of basic hydraulics and hose management
PPE not worn or not provided
non-compliance with '2 in/2 out'


All things that we might commonly see everyday in our own responses. All factors that might cause 'stuff' to happen.

But more importantly, this 'stuff' might one day kill you and/or your colleagues/firefighters! Act on these warnings!

[LaFireEducator]

Most of this "stuff" occurs when we tell ourselves that accomplishing the task is more impotant than our safety.


It's really that simple.

[frenchfireball]

routine is your enemy on fireground/firescene,no?

[Dave1983]

routine is your enemy on fireground/firescene,no?

So is "we've done it that way since Ben Franklin was Chief"...:rolleyes:

[frenchfireball]

So is "we've done it that way since Ben Franklin was Chief"...:rolleyes:

Ben Franklin,let me guess who he is.....lol.joke.

[ChiefKN]

routine is your enemy on fireground/firescene,no?

That says it in a nutshell.

I always like to think of it as the fire is looking for a way to sneak up on you and bite you in the backside.

If you are in command, there must be a constant dialogue going on in your head.

"Is that roof gonna hold up?"

"How long has this thing been going?"

"Do I think there are trusses involved?"

"Does the interior know what I'm seeing?"

"Is my water source secure?"

"How long has it been since I got an update?"

"Do I have enough units on scene or do I need another alarm?"

and always... kind of over and over again, like a broken record.

"Do I have to pull the teams out or are things okay?"


Just a sampling, I'd like to hear what others are thinking.

[HotTrotter]

I think we too often put too much in to saving the structure. I've seen more than one that we saved it only to see the demolition team come in and tear it all down. What the heck was the senses of even being inside? I've seen many the hero go inside and once he starts alarming at 25% stay a little longer, to the point they are almost out of air. I was instrumental in getting us on 45 minute air bottles. We also are much more strict about the 25% get out rule. The nice thing with the 45 minute bottle is you have a little more air to get out with.

In past jobs, we not only reported actual incidents but also near misses. That way you could fix a problem before it was a problem.

It is my opinion that no one should die while fighting a fire OR responding to the fire. It's only a building, a car, or a dumpster.

[Batt18]

I've seen many the hero go inside and once he starts alarming at 25% stay a little longer, to the point they are almost out of air. I was instrumental in getting us on 45 minute air bottles. We also are much more strict about the 25% get out rule. The nice thing with the 45 minute bottle is you have a little more air to get out with.

OK here's a thing .... I sincerely believe that SOPs should be written so that firefighters have already exited the structure by the time the 25% alarm sounds :eek: This demands careful air management of all crew members, by the crew commander, who is directly responsible for the safe exit of his/her crew.

[Batt18]

If you are in command, there must be a constant dialogue going on in your head.

"Is that roof gonna hold up?"

"How long has this thing been going?"

"Do I think there are trusses involved?"

"Does the interior know what I'm seeing?"

"Is my water source secure?"

"How long has it been since I got an update?"

"Do I have enough units on scene or do I need another alarm?"

and always... kind of over and over again, like a broken record.

"Do I have to pull the teams out or are things okay?"


Just a sampling, I'd like to hear what others are thinking.

I totally agree Chief .... how about heading that list with .... what is our SOP/s for this situation and are we in compliance?

[Binaroundawhile]

Amen to everything above. When firefighters stop thinking about where they are, what they are doing, how long has it been, EVEN FOR A SECOND . . . bad "stuff" happens. Bad FIRES happen. Stuff is allowed to occur. Factors are many. Excuses more prevalent still. EVERY fire,
E V E R Y O N E, has the potential to kill - if we (firefighters) let it.

Let's START thinkin', and STOP DYING!

[MPVFD2046]

Ok, I have been around the fire service most of my life and a firefighter for about four years. With that said it has been hammered into our heads that you either need to carry a radio when entering a structure or be with somone who has a radio with them. On those same lines I was taught to report to command onscene, place your tag on the board or have the chief officer place your tag on the board for an assignment.

Once you are given an assignment your name is moved on the command board and you proceed to where you are assigned. I have only seen this work 10% of the time at incidents. Usually so much radio traffic is going on that it is impossible to figure what has and has not been accomplished. Personnally I have taken suggestions by senior members and that is to do a personal 360 of the structure in case you have to bail from the building. I guess sometimes covering your own *** is needed when the adrenaline is pumping.

I know this was kind of off the topic, but these are few things I have witnessed and learned since I became a firefighter.

Be safe out there...

[frenchfireball]

That says it in a nutshell.

I always like to think of it as the fire is looking for a way to sneak up on you and bite you in the backside.

If you are in command, there must be a constant dialogue going on in your head.

"Is that roof gonna hold up?"

"How long has this thing been going?"

"Do I think there are trusses involved?"

"Does the interior know what I'm seeing?"

"Is my water source secure?"

"How long has it been since I got an update?"

"Do I have enough units on scene or do I need another alarm?"

and always... kind of over and over again, like a broken record.

"Do I have to pull the teams out or are things okay?"


Just a sampling, I'd like to hear what others are thinking.

maybe i said it in nutshell as you wrote,sorry for my bad english.but my relatives here told me that you can be "your worst enemy" on fireground because of routine.

[ChiefKN]

Ok, I have been around the fire service most of my life and a firefighter for about four years. With that said it has been hammered into our heads that you either need to carry a radio when entering a structure or be with somone who has a radio with them. On those same lines I was taught to report to command onscene, place your tag on the board or have the chief officer place your tag on the board for an assignment.


Our firefighters only respond with the apparatus, so they're are tagged in on that piece. Every riding position has a brand new portable radio, they are to take the radio! They are to function as a team unless given a different order (we will split teams, but min of two ff per team).

A couple of things gets me hot when I'm at the command post, excuse the rant:

1. Every firefighter coming to the command post and asking for directions.

I've given your team directions, check with your team leader. Do not come to the CP unless you are a company officer or team leader. It's not that I dont want to chat, it's that I got a million things going on and for me to explain to each member of the team what's going on and what your orders are... that's crazy. Follow the chain of command.

2. Radio feedback and open mics.

If you are standing next to the LT, you don't need your radio on or you don't need it turned up so loud. An open mic COULD kill, so practice good radio discipline and be aware of your radio and it's use. For those of you with issues, get ID's programmed into your radios. All the officers and mobiles have displays that tell them exactly who had the open mic or, god forbid, who called on the radio for help.

==============
There, my rant is over! Your mileage may vary.

[jasper45]

Going over a few threads lately I have noted a general attitude displayed by a large number of posters here (that is also commonly reflective of the fire-ground in general) that where structural fires don't always go well for us, there is this attitude of 'well .... stuff happens'. Sometimes this 'stuff' leads to loss of lives.

So chief, in the interest of the topic, are you saying that no risks should be taken on the fire ground? Are you attempting to say that if something happens to go wrong on a fire ground, that the only possible explanation for it is our own failure?

I am a believer that ‘stuff’ sometimes does happen. Now, please don’t take that as complacency, or lack of concern, or that I believe we can’t improve how we operate. It is actually quite the opposite. Sometimes circumstances on the fire ground cause us to be in a situation that allows ‘stuff’ to happen.
I am a big believer that if we are certain we have trapped occupants, that we need to do all we can to attempt a rescue. Hands in a window, screams from inside, or a jumper on the ground, these are all indicators for me that in all likelihood we have trapped people. It is then upon us to do all we can to try to make the rescue, and this does mean that we have to extend, or over reach a little at times. Any time that we extend or push further than normal, we are placed at an increased risk for ‘stuff’ to happen. I realize that we must read buildings, pay attention to smoke and fire, and know our tools and equipment, but sometimes when were extending to make a search things can go very wrong.

I’ve read this thread for a few days now, and have been very reluctant about posting an opinion on it, mostly because I’m not real sure on what exactly your point is. I agree with your bullet points and have thought in my own mind how some of those issues are in my own department, as I’m sure they exist to some extent in everyone’s. I think we can do all we can to minimize the ‘stuff’, but it always seems to stick it’s head in the game. It could be as simple misreading the structure, or having a very reliable report of trapped occupants. It could also be as complicated as losing your bearings in a structure and having to rescued.
I’m not trying to come at you for your thread, I see a lot value in talking about it. I’m trying to further the discussion.

[ChicagoFF]

Ok, I have been around the fire service most of my life and a firefighter for about four years. With that said it has been hammered into our heads that you either need to carry a radio when entering a structure or be with somone who has a radio with them. On those same lines I was taught to report to command onscene, place your tag on the board or have the chief officer place your tag on the board for an assignment.

Once you are given an assignment your name is moved on the command board and you proceed to where you are assigned. I have only seen this work 10% of the time at incidents. Usually so much radio traffic is going on that it is impossible to figure what has and has not been accomplished. Personnally I have taken suggestions by senior members and that is to do a personal 360 of the structure in case you have to bail from the building. I guess sometimes covering your own *** is needed when the adrenaline is pumping.

I know this was kind of off the topic, but these are few things I have witnessed and learned since I became a firefighter.

Be safe out there...For what it's worth - I don't think many urban departments have tags and boards and stuff. I also have never done a poersonel 360 and it would be rare for our officers to do so. Pre assignments and building construction here pretty much eliminate both proceedures. Propeties here are generally iron fenced and it would take far too long to try and force your way into the gangway and then out into the alley then back around. Not to mention row houses. In general our first engine will go in the front and our second engine will enter the side or rear. Your problem with radio traffic needs to be addressed. There is no need for much talking when everyone knows what there job is and where they should be. Remember, things are different all over and many don't use your system.

[Batt18]

So chief, in the interest of the topic, are you saying that no risks should be taken on the fire ground? Are you attempting to say that if something happens to go wrong on a fire ground, that the only possible explanation for it is our own failure?

No not at all ...

I am a believer that ‘stuff’ sometimes does happen. Now, please don’t take that as complacency, or lack of concern, or that I believe we can’t improve how we operate. It is actually quite the opposite. Sometimes circumstances on the fire ground cause us to be in a situation that allows ‘stuff’ to happen.

I am in total agreement that on occasions, whatever we do to protect ourselves, 'stuff' is going to 'happen'!

I realize that we must read buildings, pay attention to smoke and fire, and know our tools and equipment, but sometimes when were extending to make a search things can go very wrong.

I’ve read this thread for a few days now, and have been very reluctant about posting an opinion on it, mostly because I’m not real sure on what exactly your point is.

I know what you mean! It was a statement rather than a question, or a call for response. It was a soapbox appeal and I thank posters here who have kept the theme in prime view. However, the intention was to make people think and reflect on any potential there might be for such 'stuff' to be going on at our own departments, or on our firegrounds.

I agree with your bullet points and have thought in my own mind how some of those issues are in my own department, as I’m sure they exist to some extent in everyone’s. I think we can do all we can to minimize the ‘stuff’, but it always seems to stick it’s head in the game. It could be as simple misreading the structure, or having a very reliable report of trapped occupants. It could also be as complicated as losing your bearings in a structure and having to rescued.

Exactly ... I am certain we all have these warning signs at what usually ends as a routine run with nothing more than a 'near miss' that hardly grabs people's attention. However, one day these same circumstances may arise and we might not be so fortunate.

I’m not trying to come at you for your thread, I see a lot value in talking about it. I’m trying to further the discussion.

Jasper no problem here .... thanks for your valid response and for taking the time to apply the principles of the post to your own situation.

[Dave1983]

For what it's worth - I don't think many urban departments have tags and boards and stuff.

Maybe in the upper midwest. Down here every urban FD I know of uses some type of tag/board accountability system. Must be a regional thing.

Same goes for radio traffic, seat assignments and others. I dont know of anyone who has seat assignments , other then the driver drives, the officer officers and the boys in the backseat stretch hose. We leave who does what up to the company officer. Making decisions is what we pay them for.

As far as radio traffic goes, even though assignments are for the most part pre-determined by SOG, you still report to the IC that your on-scene, laying a supply line, going up to vent or whatever. Its part of our accountability system.

I read in another post where FFFred said that FDNY crews dont say these things on the radio, and I figure CFD is the same. No problem, if it works keep doing it. But by saying well, Ladder 201 is on scene so the crew is here, here and here because thats what the SOG says their assignments are isnt our idea of accountability.

But like I said, it must be a regional thing...