Need to replace equipment soon - possible 07 AFG award

[quaker49]

We have a situation in NYS where a new state law mandates not only Safety Ropes but "System components" means life safety harness, belts, ascending devices, carabiners, descent control devices, rope grab devices and snap-links. Our department has safety ropes but the system components are new to our department. We have been trained to use the ropes without the components. The new law takes affect in 60 days after 8/1.

The engine room talk is to address the issue of system components through new bunker pants with an intergrated system components.

We have a pending '07 AFG grant - we made it past the computer. The grant application isfocused on PPE.

If we have to purchase new bunker pants (looks like we might have to do that or retro-fit our current bunkers) - would this new state law create the need to prespend AFG money before the award?

How could the Department approach this to address the new law and still take advantage of the potential AFG award, would one talk to a regional representative?

Any inputs or suggestions would be appreciated.

Sean Kelleher
QSFD

[LVFD301]

I suspect what you will find is that DHS will feel that if you have the money to comply now - why did you need the grant?

I don't believe they will authorize a prebuy anyways.

Do you have a link to the law? I know of a number of
departments up there that have not heard of this.

[18truckmedic]

Law Link: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A07785

QSFD you should reference NFPA 1983 and evaluate that against the state requirement since 1983 is noted in the law to give the law some flexibility as the standard changes. You may not need to have 100lbs of hardware to meet the law.

Good luck as you continue down the grant path.

[quaker49]

Just a couple of quick responses -

18 truck - your reference to the NFPA standards are in the sponsor memo not the actual law - the key is that the NYS Labor Commissioner must issue rules and that is the actual guidance document - I know that we are making inquiries for those rules. (Common sense would be reference NFPA 1983 - but that does not always rule in government).

LVFD - I believe the decisions are made in regards to what order the grants will be awarded so unless there becomes a higher priority - it is a matter of how far will the money go...
I think with a little research we can find departments that have (or had) the money to comply (with regulations) in prior years that waited for the grant to be awarded. There are some real differences in the fire departments across the country and just in our little region... departments that have no money and are working the hot dog stand at the county fairs, bingos every week, and every other fundraiser to buy gear and other departments that have a stronger tax base, and generous donations. As a result, some departments have very nice equipment and lots of it along with very pretty firehouses while others make due with used equipent and falling down firehouses. But they are all have a chance at the AFG awards - unless you do not apply. In our case, this is an unfunded mandate - the money that we have on hand is focused on some larger projects (over $1 million which is a lot for us). I am not confident that we will be awarded AFG. If we do get awarded, I expect it will be a later round - I see getting by the computer as an accomplishment. But it is important to plan so that we use the resources that we have wisely.

Thanks again for comments,

SKelleher

[medic190]

This is news to me... Can you refrence the information so I can research this new law? We haven't heard anything about this 'new law' but if there is one, it would have interesting ramifications to tens of thousands of Departments Statewide... Also, remember that although it sometimes carries the weight of law, if you are referring to the updated NFPA consensus standards, they are just that... So, you'd have time to impliment the new gear slowly... Please advise...

[Catch22]

Just a couple of quick responses -

18 truck - your reference to the NFPA standards are in the sponsor memo not the actual law - the key is that the NYS Labor Commissioner must issue rules and that is the actual guidance document - I know that we are making inquiries for those rules. (Common sense would be reference NFPA 1983 - but that does not always rule in government).

Actually, it's in the bill... Except for an employer located in a city with a population of over one million, any employer who employs a firefighter shall provide safety ropes and system components for use by such firefighter. The commissioner shall by rule adopt the codes, standards, and recommended practices promulgated b the most recent edition of the National Fire Protection Association 1983, Standard on Fire Service Life Safety Rope and System Components, and as are appropriate to the nature of the risk to which the firefighter shall be exposed. (http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A07785&sh=t) It continues on to address some other stuff regarding those systems.

I'd go with what 18truckmedic suggested and start researching 1983.

Also, "'System components' means life safety harness, belts, ascending devices, carabiners, descent control devices, rope grap devices, and snap links." are to be added to Subdivision 1 of section 27-a of the labor law. You can see in the memo this is only a definition of "system components," meaning that wherever "system components" is used in the statute, that they are referring to those items.

By reading the memo, it appears this is a law that someone's come up with after the incident where 6 FDNY firefighters had to jump from a 4-story window (I find it ironic they exclude NYC in the bill, though). So, I would imagine, although I haven't read NFPA 1983, that you'll be fine with bail-out devices and any rope equipment you have now has to meet NFPA 1983. I can't imagine you're going to have to add harnesses and rope bags for every person, likely only bail-out bags for them to put on when entering a structure.

I do agree with LVFD, though, in that DHS will not allow you to buy the stuff now and then pay you after the fact. If I recall, that's actualy forbidden in the grant guidance.

Perhaps you should get with your department attorney or NY's equivalent of a department of labor to get a better idea of what's going to be required of you before you go spending money.

[LVFD301]

LVFD - I believe the decisions are made in regards to what order the grants will be awarded so unless there becomes a higher priority - it is a matter of how far will the money go...
I think with a little research we can find departments that have (or had) the money to comply (with regulations) in prior years that waited for the grant to be awarded. There are some real differences in the fire departments across the country and just in our little region... departments that have no money and are working the hot dog stand at the county fairs, bingos every week, and every other fundraiser to buy gear and other departments that have a stronger tax base, and generous donations. As a result, some departments have very nice equipment and lots of it along with very pretty firehouses while others make due with used equipent and falling down firehouses. But they are all have a chance at the AFG awards - unless you do not apply. In our case, this is an unfunded mandate - the money that we have on hand is focused on some larger projects (over $1 million which is a lot for us). I am not confident that we will be awarded AFG. If we do get awarded, I expect it will be a later round - I see getting by the computer as an accomplishment. But it is important to plan so that we use the resources that we have wisely.

Thanks again for comments,

SKelleher

Trust me - I know poor. your larger projects of over a million are are at least 153.846 times my annual budget. (6,500.00 a year, not including grants)

We are always putting in AFG grants, bought new SCBA, New CAFS pumper, looking, hoping, praying for 1099's for new turnouts (we don't have used turnouts, we have turnouts that are 3d or more generation hand me downs) TIC's on a regional grant, and First Responder gear on a regional grant.

Now, we cover a small area - just under 200 square miles - two stations, and about 500 square miles on automatic aid for structure fires.

I am very familiar with poor.

But, after looking at your situation, you have a law, that tells the state to formulate standards. Giving that it will take time for the standards to be decided, any purchase on your agencies part to comply with it would be premature.

FEMA has had great issues with purchases for equipment in many situations. One that can be looked at is when an agency puts in for a grant for say, a new truck, and in the waiting period to see if they get a new truck, the town council approves spending to purchase a new truck.

FEMA then expects to see two shiny new trucks.

Of course, in all situations where there is any kind of confusion, or questions, the best answer is to ask your FEMA grant specialist. Get it in writing.

Also, while the law seems to say that NFPA is going to be the rules, the bill certainly contained some leeway - time for your state organization to get an attorney involved. (IMHO)

[quaker49]

Medic 190 - there is a reference to the law earlier in the tread - one of the options on the page that comes up is text of the bill - which is basically the text that become law (it is actually the Senate version that became law and you can research that off the same link I believe).

Thanks for the comments on DHS from LVFD and Catch 22 - I am getting the theme here.

LVFD, I feel your pain - it is amazing to me how different things and at times are unfair. We try hard to raise money from donations, grants, and fundraisers. We work to be thrifty with the money entrusted with us. But every time (twice in the last year) that we asked the voters for support for a LOSAP plan and a new station they came out and voted in impressive numbers and gave us 87% and 90% support in the elections. We have strong grant support from the NYS, we have large donations from letter campaigns and boot drives. We also have only 50 square miles with no interstates. I guess we are one of the lucky ones - as I said, I do think the grant award is a slam dunk. But I do think we have a need so that is why we requested the funding.

Be Safe,

S. Kelleher