NFPA 1981/1982 2007ed. Delays to cert new SCBA

[WFDFPBEMSL4]

Saw today in the September issue Fire Apparatus News,(not online as of yet) a front page article questioning the abitlity of the big 7 SCBA manufacturers to get certification for NFPA1981/1982 2007 ed. According to the article, no one is close. They also mention that the 2006 DHS awardees are still waiting for 07 complinat packs. I imagine those of us who were awarded this year are looking at filing extensions also.

We were reduced on our SCBA grant, is it possible that DHS had the heads up that certs were not comming as fast as we all hoped and that the 5K price tag would be sufficient for SCBA that meets the previous standard?

Anyone care to chime in on this, waiting for a call from our region DHS rep. We certainly will wait for the manufactureres to ket up to speed, will DHS still wait with us?

[AVFD34]

We are waiting to be awarded on our SCBA project, got 1199, 10q’s, and like you a reduction request to $5K per SCBA. I accepted the reduction but added that it would be hard to fulfill our proposed project under the 2007 standard and requested they PLEASE consider additional funding for departments with SCBA projects because of the standard change. I have spent the last week contacting different venders in the TX, OK, and LA area and requesting quotes. OUt of 11 venders only one vender still had 2002 ed. SCBA on the shelf and very few at that. (for clarification we are looking at Scott Paks) All the venders have been able to quote me the 2007 ed. prices (AP75’s), and there is a significant price increase from the 2002 ed. to the 2007 ed. One major vender told me today, after he talked to his Scott rep, that Scott would start accepting orders on the AP75’s in September. He also told me that they could still order AP50’s (2002 ed.), but that they would not be stamped with the NFPA approval. I have talked to so many different salesmen and gotten so many different answers, that I do not know who or what to believe right now.

[BC79er]

Scott is the only manufacturer with the 2007 certification, the rest are talking February or beyond before they will comply.

And AVFD is correct with the stamping, they can't put a stamp that says compliant with the current NFPA standard when they aren't since the current one has been the 2007 edition since February. That doesn't mean they can't be bought, just means they won't have a current edition sticker on them.

[imafireman]

We were awarded in the first round this year for SCBA. When asked about waiting on the 2007 packs, we were told not to wait and to purchase the 2002 editions. We had a significant cost savings, but DHS would not allow us to use this savings to purchase the additional packs to go on the crew cab tanker we have also been awarded for. It did not make sense to me, but at least we are able to buy enough for the other vehicles. They are being delivered this evening. Went with MSA.

Kelly

[WFDFPBEMSL4]

We are looking at MSA and Draeger, considering that neither will be ready until spring, will DHS allow for the extension. I wrote anticipating the 07 standards would be in place during my performance period. If I settle for the 02 stamp, I am not following the intent of my grant. Is this not the ultimate catch 22?

[BC79er]

DHS is allowing the 2002 standard to be purchased, so that's why you are allowed to deviate from the original scope. Everyone expected more manufacturers to be ready, not like the requirements were a secret. But so many things became so stringent in the new standard that a lot of manufacturing processes had to be changed so that they could be met. Hence the across the board price increases. I'd insert something about changing equipment instead of increasing training and tactics, but that dead horse has no hide left from the beating.

Most PASS devices are now throwaway because of the submersion tests. It's impossible to make one that can have the battery changed and still seal to pass the test. In 15 years I've met a ton of people that couldn't read the diagram and put the battery in the right way, so making a waterproof seal on top of that? Not gonna happen... ;)

[firechief401]

Check out the following website:

http://www.seinet.org/CPL/nfpa1981_07.htm

It is the testing agency that certifies scba's to NFPA 1981. Interspiro has the S6 version that was approved to the 2007 standard on Friday, August 31, 2007. The only manufacturer so far.......

[BC79er]

Umm, according to that link Scott has also passed. In fact they passed a couple of months ago, making them the first. Nice to see the rest are coming around finally though.

[rfd599]

WFD:

What department are you on?

rfd599
www.IllinoisFireStore.com

[AVFD34]

Umm, according to that link Scott has also passed. In fact they passed a couple of months ago, making them the first. Nice to see the rest are coming around finally though.

It looks like Scott has passed it's NxG7, but not it's AP75. The problem with the NxG packs is thier propriatery bottles. They are not even compatable with other Scott packs. I talked to our Regional Scott Rep. last week and he told me they have not gotten the AP75's approved yet and does not know when that will happen.

I also talked with our regional DHS rep. about our grant and the problems with funding the new 2007 ed. packs. He asked me to be patient and give DHS until the end of September. He stated they are aware of the problem and may (that is may) be looking at additional funding to assist those with SCBA projects. So for now we will sit back and see what happens.

[SLY4420]

I also talked with our regional DHS rep. about our grant and the problems with funding the new 2007 ed. packs. He asked me to be patient and give DHS until the end of September. He stated they are aware of the problem and may (that is may) be looking at additional funding to assist those with SCBA projects. So for now we will sit back and see what happens.

This might be totally nutty, but I wonder if they've stopped 1199'ing SCBA awards until they figure this out. I've got one app I did for a neighboring station which should score well and know of another I read that seems to have a great narrative with no update. Both applications were for SCBA.

[ktb9780]

This might be totally nutty, but I wonder if they've stopped 1199'ing SCBA awards until they figure this out. I've got one app I did for a neighboring station which should score well and know of another I read that seems to have a great narrative with no update. Both applications were for SCBA.

Sound reasoning sly!;)

[SLY4420]

Sound reasoning sly!;)

Are you just complementing me or does that wink actually mean something? :)

[ktb9780]

Are you just complementing me or does that wink actually mean something? :)


Well, as Clint Eastwood would say, " it doesn't mean we will be swappinig spit".LOL! No I think you and I are thinking along the same lines also.:D

[SLY4420]

Gotcha. Has anyone been 1199'd recently for an SCBA project?

[jwfisher]

Got awarded a few weeks ago. I'm hoping they reconsider, if not we're looking at a 15,000.00 share instead of 3,000.00! Kurt, I talked to our Scott Rep. about purchasing 2002 compliant packs, he stated that he was sure there weren't any left. Does this sound correct?

Fish

PS I'll be seeing you Jan. in Pittsford NY

[LFD1MICHAEL]

I had the exact same idea last week Sly, 2 awards with no scba. A couple of DJ's and 11 depts left. 7 of the 11 are either exclusive SCBA or some part of the project.

SCBA is in the "request details pulldown menu" so I assume it would be easy enought to flag those applications until a fix is found. I just hope they don't spend all of the money in the mean time, these guys around here need some new paks!

Did anyone in round 5 or 7 get SCBA??????????

[LVFD301]

Got awarded a few weeks ago. I'm hoping they reconsider, if not we're looking at a 15,000.00 share instead of 3,000.00! Kurt, I talked to our Scott Rep. about purchasing 2002 compliant packs, he stated that he was sure there weren't any left. Does this sound correct?

Fish

PS I'll be seeing you Jan. in Pittsford NY

They still seem to be pushing the 2002 units here in Missouri. I can't imagine that Scott just shut down production on everything but the one compliant model.

Not yet at least.

[AZO1026]

Got my 1199 a couple of weeks ago, first ever, primarily SCBA's, composite bottles and PPE. No 10 q's yet, wonder if they got hung up with the SCBA issue?

[BC79er]

After Aug 31 no manufacturer can make 2002 compliant packs, so whatever was in inventory was it. I think most vendors are out of them. I know Scott is taking orders for AP75s, production starting soon on them. Last I heard they passed just waiting on the official stamp on paper to make it good.

[BC79er]

This might be totally nutty, but I wonder if they've stopped 1199'ing SCBA awards until they figure this out. I've got one app I did for a neighboring station which should score well and know of another I read that seems to have a great narrative with no update. Both applications were for SCBA.

Forgot to say, this isn't the case despite the appearance that some should have gotten updates by now. I have a pile that I'm surprised haven't been updated myself, but also got 3 more SCBA 1199As last week alone, and DHS isn't holding off on anything because the manufacturers aren't catching up with the times. With 12 months in the POP, plenty of time to either wait until the vendor of choice gets approved or buy someone else's.

The money per pack is pretty much decided, so the normal course of action is to accept the reduced per pack amount and submit an amendment for the lesser quantity using the same amount of dough. To my knowledge they haven't denied one yet because of the mix-up we're all in. 2008 will have updating pricing.

[LFD1MICHAEL]

:eek: Shoots my theory right in the knee :eek:

[HazFire1]

Got my 1199A for SCBA's and composite bottles a few weeks ago, no 10q's yet.
First Award

[br2211]

Can anybody tell me whats going on? I just wish they would get things figured out and get more 1199 rollin. Still waiting on any news on our grant we have not heard anything. But we do know that we got past the computer and this is the first time for that so maybe this will be the first time for an afg grant!!!! ya think???

[ktb9780]

Got awarded a few weeks ago. I'm hoping they reconsider, if not we're looking at a 15,000.00 share instead of 3,000.00! Kurt, I talked to our Scott Rep. about purchasing 2002 compliant packs, he stated that he was sure there weren't any left. Does this sound correct?

Fish

PS I'll be seeing you Jan. in Pittsford NY

Fish sounds like he is holding out on you looking to get the extra bucks fomr the 2007 packs. Call him back and tell him you have another supplier and see if he changes his tune.;)

[jwfisher]

Kurt,

That was my gut feeling. I'll be calling him tonight.

Fish

[BC79er]

Most vendors don't have any 2002 compliant packs, lots of departments made runs on the 2002 packs to avoid the price increases.

[LVFD301]

Just talked with my draeger rep - plenty of packs.

[jdlowndes]

Okay... So based on the previous post, here is a question. I wrote a grant for another department. They were awarded 4 SCBA's at 5k each. What do they have to buy (Just saying that they can find some "new" 2002's)??? My head is spinning after reading all these post. Wonder if it is the migrain meds??? Anyways, what do they do?????

[ktb9780]

Okay... So based on the previous post, here is a question. I wrote a grant for another department. They were awarded 4 SCBA's at 5k each. What do they have to buy (Just saying that they can find some "new" 2002's)??? My head is spinning after reading all these post. Wonder if it is the migrain meds??? Anyways, what do they do?????

If they can locate 2002 editions they can buy them now. Until the 2007 models are out on the market it is acceptable to buy the "most current" NFPA edition available.;)

[jdlowndes]

Thanks!! I will pass on the word. I'll try to call you in a little bit Kurt.

[WFDFPBEMSL4]

On the Seinet.com site. MSA firehawk passed both 1981 and 1982 2007. On the issue of DHS replies.....My region rep told me no extension would be given since there are plenty of 2002 NFPA packs availiable. We should buy those. Funny thing.....my grant specifically stated NFPA 1981, 1982 2007 compliant. Upon hearing that there was complete silence. DHS then went on to state that those who are fortunate enough to get the funding later in the grant procedure will not be reduced, as the new current standard will increse the price above the current 5k alloted for the SCBA.

HMMMMM.......IF first round winners are those who demonstrated the greatest need and scored the highest....but are penalized because the standard improved in the middle of the game.....maybe that reduction should be argued to be reinstated. So far its costing me 40K. KURT......your wisdom please!!!!!!

[ktb9780]

Jeff an old proverb come to mind here, so don't take this the wrong way but, considering that you guys are a "double" award winner this year for truck and SCBA, remember that "squeaky wheels get oiled but, in some cases, they can also get replaced". LOL!

Come on now; why would anyone in your department not be ecstatic? According to my calculations you guys have about $371,212 more than you had at this time a couple of months ago! Let's see, "spend $40K to get $371K" that is a win in anyone's book. Wish I could do that at my bank!

This is no worse than buying a new car and having Chevy offer a $2500 rebate program start the following week. Situations change, circumstances shift, in other words ""stuff happens".:rolleyes:

[meekrol]

Scott is still building the AP50's they do not just go away. nothing has changed on that. those units will be out there for a long long time. production never stopped. it just does not have the approval label on the pak.

[BC79er]

Actually it did. No one can produce anything but 2007 packs after Aug 31st. And they couldn't put NFPA stickers on them since February since that's when the standard was put into place. Scott was done with AP50 orders back in July.

[Volchief1]

We opened bids on our SCBA on the 8th. The MSA M7 will be delivered in 6 to 8 weeks according to the winning bidder.

[jdlowndes]

Jeff an old proverb come to mind here, so don't take this the wrong way but, considering that you guys are a "double" award winner this year for truck and SCBA, remember that "squeaky wheels get oiled but, in some cases, they can also get replaced". LOL!

Come on now; why would anyone in your department not be ecstatic? According to my calculations you guys have about $371,212 more than you had at this time a couple of months ago! Let's see, "spend $40K to get $371K" that is a win in anyone's book. Wish I could do that at my bank!

This is no worse than buying a new car and having Chevy offer a $2500 rebate program start the following week. Situations change, circumstances shift, in other words ""stuff happens".:rolleyes:


Jeff, I'll take your money if you don't want it!!! Been turned down for a truck 3 times now. Let me know if you are interested!!! I just need 160K of your 371K. You can keep the rest. HAHAHAHA

[imafireman]

CANCEL 2002 Edition PACKS!!!

Hey all. I submitted our reimbursement request for 2002 compliant packs. I am being told that if the delivery date was not before September 1st, then DHS will not release funds for payment.

[WJVaughn]

Somebody either make up their minds or just shoot me and put me out of my misery. I did not even have airpaks on my request this year and all of this dhs double talk is giving me a headache.

[BC79er]

As far as I've found it's that the packs needed to be ordered by Sep 1st, not delivered. Someone at DHS most likely mis-read something based on what I've gotten back so far.

[Greenacres2]

We opened bids on our SCBA on the 8th. The MSA M7 will be delivered in 6 to 8 weeks according to the winning bidder.

That's got to feel good Scott, you've come a long way since Orlando!

earl (now here's a news flash--Scott is buying MSA--for his department that is!!)

[LRCHIEF46]

Heard from our MSA rep today that they passed the 2007 test. Has anyone else heard this infotmation.

[AVFD34]

Heard from our MSA rep today that they passed the 2007 test. Has anyone else heard this infotmation.

According to the Safety Equipment Institute site -www.seinet.org- which is the company doing the third party testing for the new 2007 standards, MSA has passed both the 1981 and 1982 standards. MSA has been making a big marketing push the last couple of days stating they are the first to pass both standards. Our local rep has been sending out numerous emails and literature.

Interspiro (Spiromatic S6) and Scott (NxG7) have packs that have passed the 1981 standard but not the 1982 standard which deals with the Integrated PASS.

The Scott AP75 still has not been listed as passing either standard. This is the pack we were looking at. We may be changing gears and going with MSA now, they have made a sweet offer that covers all our grant project requests and then some. I am scheduling a demo to take a look at thier new FireHawk M7 pack.

[BC79er]

Well remember that no vendor can 'give' you anything above the grant request because of the excess fund limitations. Anything above the grant app project items must be paid out of pocket. Lots of folks have cut checks back to DHS after making such a mistake. That's where a lot of 2006 excess funds awards have been coming from actually...

[LRCHIEF46]

Thanks AVFD34, I tried the seinet web site but it is down for some reason. I just wanted to make sure we were getting the right information. We have ordered 17 of the FireHawk M7 packs. I think you will be impressed with the pack once you demo it.

[AVFD34]

Well remember that no vendor can 'give' you anything above the grant request because of the excess fund limitations. Anything above the grant app project items must be paid out of pocket. Lots of folks have cut checks back to DHS after making such a mistake. That's where a lot of 2006 excess funds awards have been coming from actually...

Bryan, correct me if I am wrong, but once we meet the scope of the grant project and there are excess funds left, we can spend up to $5k to continue or expand our project correct?

The MSA quote came in so much lower than the Scott quote that if (big if) we go with MSA we will have money left over. I have used both MSA and Scott during the course of my career and both are fine packs. The Scott reps in our area are just not budging on the price, and to complete our project as stated in our grant, going with Scott would mean additional money out-of-pocket for us. I am still giving it till the end of the month to see if DHS follows though and offers up more money for those with SCBA projects. But for now it can't hurt to explore all our options.

[BC79er]

Correct, up to $4999 in fed funds can be used but some have gone well beyond that thinking that they could just keep piling on things. Always better to spend less out of pocket, can't argue with that. :)

[7Stones]

Email from DHS clarifies this situation. Check you email or look at your message tab on your application page.

Maybe they will start moving faster on awards involving SCBAs now?

Jon

[BC79er]

I just posted a new thread with the whole email also. Great minds think alike.

[neiowa]

.... The Scott reps in our area are just not budging on the price, ...

Did you talk to MES? When we purchased our Scott SCBA (NxG2) a couple years ago MES was much more aggressive on pricing than any of the other vendors we quoted (MSA etc).

[AVFD34]

Did you talk to MES? When we purchased our Scott SCBA (NxG2) a couple years ago MES was much more aggressive on pricing than any of the other vendors we quoted (MSA etc).

Talked with MES, they have an office here locally, and they aren't budging on price. I had another Scott dealer come in with a lower bid and when I called our MES rep back he told me if he were me he would buy from the other guy because he could not go any lower on price. It's a shame, I like doing business with MES, we buy a lot of equipment through them.

[BC79er]

As an FYI, Scott has been taking orders for AP75s for a little while, and will be shipping starting 10/1. It passed the test(s), just waiting for the letter to get written and stamped or something bureaucratic like that. Others are supposed to be not too far behind.

[onebugle]

September's Firehouse magazine has an article (pgs 14-15) on Scott's Air Pak 75 & Air-Pak NxG7 SCBA. Discusses how Scott has exceeeded the 2007 standard and 7 features that go beyond the standard.

[JD1234]

I have a question about fulfilling the scope of the grant. If we are required to buy 25 packs under our grant award, can we buy 23 packs in one shot, and then buy 2 more packs at a different time as part of another department purchase? My understanding is that we need to show DHS we complied by purchasing 25 packs within the grant period. Rather than dealing with the hassle of asking for additional funds or a reduction in number of packs as outlined in the e-mail noted above, we may buy 2 fewer packs now, and then bundle 2 more packs with another large purchase.

Thanks in advance for help.

[onebugle]

I have a question about fulfilling the scope of the grant. If we are required to buy 25 packs under our grant award, can we buy 23 packs in one shot, and then buy 2 more packs at a different time as part of another department purchase? My understanding is that we need to show DHS we complied by purchasing 25 packs within the grant period. Rather than dealing with the hassle of asking for additional funds or a reduction in number of packs as outlined in the e-mail noted above, we may buy 2 fewer packs now, and then bundle 2 more packs with another large purchase.

Thanks in advance for help.

As you pointed out, you need to complete the sope of the project by the end of the POP. Purchasing 23 now and 2 later is not a problem. :)

[WFDFPBEMSL4]

Jeff an old proverb come to mind here, so don't take this the wrong way but, considering that you guys are a "double" award winner this year for truck and SCBA, remember that "squeaky wheels get oiled but, in some cases, they can also get replaced". LOL!

Come on now; why would anyone in your department not be ecstatic? According to my calculations you guys have about $371,212 more than you had at this time a couple of months ago! Let's see, "spend $40K to get $371K" that is a win in anyone's book. Wish I could do that at my bank!

This is no worse than buying a new car and having Chevy offer a $2500 rebate program start the following week. Situations change, circumstances shift, in other words ""stuff happens".:rolleyes:

Kurt, absolutely right on that point, we are thrilled, and i take no issue...It just seems since this post, The new DHS email regarding funding for 07 compliant packs has made the rounds. My point was that those who are on the edge of being reduced, may want to reconsider, if thier circumstances allow. I was more upset at being told the 02 packs meet the scope of my grant, when we were able to justify and have 07 packs awarded.
Thanks for the smak Kurt, Ill be in town in October/....

[WFDFPBEMSL4]

sorry charlie...we need it all this time. I do have a 1983 E-One that is going away, it pumps, but it has cost us 50K over the past 2 years to keep running.

[ktb9780]

Kurt, absolutely right on that point, we are thrilled, and i take no issue...It just seems since this post, The new DHS email regarding funding for 07 compliant packs has made the rounds. My point was that those who are on the edge of being reduced, may want to reconsider, if thier circumstances allow. I was more upset at being told the 02 packs meet the scope of my grant, when we were able to justify and have 07 packs awarded.
Thanks for the smak Kurt, Ill be in town in October/....

Not a problem Jeff. This has been, to say the least, another interesting year and I assume we have not heard the end of all this either when it comes ot he SCBAs.;)

[doeratchy]

Saw today in the September issue Fire Apparatus News,(not online as of yet) a front page article questioning the abitlity of the big 7 SCBA manufacturers to get certification for NFPA1981/1982 2007 ed. According to the article, no one is close. They also mention that the 2006 DHS awardees are still waiting for 07 complinat packs. I imagine those of us who were awarded this year are looking at filing extensions also.

We were reduced on our SCBA grant, is it possible that DHS had the heads up that certs were not comming as fast as we all hoped and that the 5K price tag would be sufficient for SCBA that meets the previous standard?

Anyone care to chime in on this, waiting for a call from our region DHS rep. We certainly will wait for the manufactureres to ket up to speed, will DHS still wait with us?

From: Korb, Tom
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 3:04 PM
To: Monroe -Domestic H&S Sales; Monroe - H/S Sales - Canada; Monroe-Latin America Sales
Cc: Smith, Trent; Freund, Luanne; Trivette, David
Subject: NFPA 1981, 2007 NXG7


We are very pleased to announce that the Scott NXG7 received certification to NFPA 1981:2007 (Standard on Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) for Emergency Services. At the same time, the Scott NXG7 also received NIOSH CBRN (Chemical, biological, Radiological, and Nuclear) approval.



As of this e-mail, Scott & Interspiro are the only SCBA manufacturers to receive 2007 approval letters but as everyone can fully appreciate this is a very fluid process so stay tuned for additional updates