Past quick attack winners

[Catch22]

I'm not getting the amount of response I'd like to have out of the apparatus forums, so I thought I'd throw out and see what you past winners have done. I'm curious about almost anything: what kind of chassis/body combo you got, pump set-ups, but really curious about companies and costs.

As much as I enjoy getting the grant, the selection process is a bear! We've got a pretty good idea, we just hate to miss something that might be a good idea, or a good manufacturer we don't know about, that kind of thing.

[neiowa]

Sunday, Aug 19, is what I'm told is a very large apparatus show in Monroe, Wi. 7-12.00 mfg displays and FD show. I'm driving there to see what I can learn for our tanker pumper spec. From Ia to Wi, I hope I don't fall off the edge of the world.

Hey I responded to you other thread with some very inciteful words of wisdom, or not.

[Catch22]

Sunday, Aug 19, is what I'm told is a very large apparatus show in Monroe, Wi. 7-12.00 mfg displays and FD show. I'm driving there to see what I can learn for our tanker pumper spec. From Ia to Wi, I hope I don't fall off the edge of the world.

Hey I responded to you other thread with some very inciteful words of wisdom, or not.

I hope you don't fall off either! Don't come back with that accent, either. :p

If you happen to notice anything that looks nice in the way of a quick attack, let me know.

I did see your response, getting ready to respond to it.

[Limeforever]

Catch, We just ordered a minipumper, that had been speced at $132,xxx and the week before bids were to go out, Pierce, KME and EOne all called and said they could not do it on the F-550 chassis due to some Ford problems. So keep a close eye out on your chassis. We ended up putting our mini on a International chassis.

[RSNCAIN1]

What kind of problems are there with the ford chassis??? Was the truck you were building to much wait?

[Fighting41NY]

I'd vote to not use a FORD F550 4x4 again, 6.3L. Our 2003 Rescue is overloaded due to the low GVWR(6,500 front, 17,500 total), already has front end problems and has eaten 2 turbo's. There also has been multiple recalls.

[Limeforever]

Neighboring department has a 2005 F-550 with a 1000 gpm pump works great. Would have been an excellent truck for some of our narrow streets and a great fill truck when we can draft from the river. All the dealers have told us that the new emissions standards have caused problems with several components in the trucks, such as overheating, brake systems just incompatible with this type of application now. We run two F-450 for light rescue and the are good for that purpose, but we put 12,000 lb winches on the front of them and even with the beefed up front suspension, we have trouble with tires. A second neighboring department had bookoooubles with the turbos (like three new turbos)on their 2006 F-450, ended up trading it in on a new chassis. The chassis might be fine if you are going for a skid unit or something along that line, just be careful you don't end up getting a headache.

[Catch22]

Catch, We just ordered a minipumper, that had been speced at $132,xxx and the week before bids were to go out, Pierce, KME and EOne all called and said they could not do it on the F-550 chassis due to some Ford problems. So keep a close eye out on your chassis. We ended up putting our mini on a International chassis.

Mind if I ask who you went through on that spec?

[Fighting41NY]

I'd vote to not use a FORD F550 4x4 again, 6.3L. Our 2003 Rescue is overloaded due to the low GVWR(6,500 front, 17,500 total), already has front end problems and has eaten 2 turbo's. There also has been multiple recalls.

[Limeforever]

KME was the winner, with a total length of 24', a foot longer than the 1978 Chevy 3500 we are replacing. It was bid by KME, Pierce and EOne. Some more companies had the specs but could not bid the truck. When we stepped up the chassis, the price id go up, but that was expected when we found out about the problem. The 2005 model was bought for $125,000 from KME.

[neiowa]

I'd vote to not use a FORD F550 4x4 again, 6.3L. Our 2003 Rescue is overloaded due to the low GVWR(6,500 front, 17,500 total), already has front end problems and has eaten 2 turbo's. There also has been multiple recalls.

You overload a truck and you break it. Big surprise. Blame Ford???

[Catch22]

When it comes to Ford, the 6.0 and 6.3 aren't going to be an issue. It's likely going to be an '08 chassis, possibly an '07, both of which I understand have the 6.4 Powerstroke.

We're also planning on keeping things pretty light. The majority of the weight is going to be water (300 gallon), pump, and extrication equipment (spreaders, cutters, power unit). It's not something we're going to throw everything, including the kitchen sink into.

[rbh1957]

I was at the KME factory on 8/13/2007 checking on our tanker, most of the mini pumpers were being built on the GMC 5500 chassis with a few on the International 4200 & 4300 chassis. They said there was a problem with the Ford 550 but we did not talk about it. To get the best bang for your buck, take a tour of the vendors factory that you plan to buy from. You will see more ideas during that time than you will ever see in a flyer or web site. :)

[Greenacres2]

The new diesel emission standard may have a more negative impact than any given manufacturer. At least one of the major racing sanctioning bodies has been alerting its safety crews that idling the new ones for long period will tend to make them sluggish. We had one last weekend that flashed the "clear exhaust filter" code and then wouldn't exceed 50 mph when they tried to clear it. Wasn't a Ford, and if i'm understanding correctly--that's not a brand specific problem.

The concern of the track i was at was that you can't just shut down the racing to take the safety trucks out on the highway for a while. Could be the same problem on a fire or rescue call. Maybe we can get an engine guru to weigh in. I'm certainly not qualified.

earl

[Limeforever]

All the reps were pushing the GMC 5500 chassis, but we went with International for the service. No large truck service available here for the GMC's, but there is for the International. When they were talking to us about the F 550, all mentioned a limp home feature when we asked about the big pump, and it had to be a standard transmission on the F 550, but we got an automatic with the International. I suggest what RBH said. Take a tour of the factory, most dealers that want your business will be glad to take you there. You can also see the latest gadgets and innovations up close and personal. Catch if you are interested, let me know and when I go back to work I will get you a copy of the specs sent to you. I have the specs for the F-550 as well if you need them.

[Catch22]

Catch if you are interested, let me know and when I go back to work I will get you a copy of the specs sent to you. I have the specs for the F-550 as well if you need them.

That would be great if it's no trouble! The F-550 would be great, as well. I'm not sure where we're sitting price-wise and if we could pull off an International, FL, or any other larger chassis with a 4x4 or not, but I'm certainly not closed to any ideas at this point.

Part of our situation is revolving around what we're wanting to do with this thing for sure. I think before we make any other decision, we're going to decide on 2-door vs. 4-door. If we go 4-door, we like the size of the GMC, if not it's a toss-up.

From that point, we're pretty well agreed on the general aspects (rescue-style body, skid set-up, etc). It's just this damn chassis set-up that's got the committee bound up.

[neiowa]

I was at the KME factory on 8/13/2007 checking on our tanker, most of the mini pumpers were being built on the GMC 5500 chassis with a few on the International 4200 & 4300 chassis. They said there was a problem with the Ford 550 but we did not talk about it. To get the best bang for your buck, take a tour of the vendors factory that you plan to buy from. You will see more ideas during that time than you will ever see in a flyer or web site. :)

The only problem I've read (a few weeks ago) about with Ford is that IH is refusing to ship engines (diesel) to Ford until Ford coughs up more $. They are in a mud throwing match over who should pay for warrenty claims of the last few years. No engines will tend to slow down your production line/deliveries.

[lvfd404]

Since some of you are up to date with Fords ongoing problems with their 6.0L on F-550, I was wondering if any of you know of any reps from Ford that I may be able to speak with. I have one of those problem child 6.0L Fords that you have been hearing about. I am at my wits-end with trying to get the problem fixed. If you want details on problems ask and if you have enough time, I will tell....
Thanks in advance guys.

[Limeforever]

I have plenty of time. We were just told excerpts from what I have gathered. What all is going on? We know it has something to do with the new emissions standards, as well as last years models having turbo troubles? Talk to us brother.

[lvfd404]

Well its a 2003 550. We have had 4 turbos put in. Multiple EGR valves, computer updates, and the usual "we dont know whats wrong with it" problem. It has approx 4300 miles on it. Its not overloaded or anything. It has been in the shop between 15 and 20 times now and has been to 3 different dealerships. The problem is always this...complete loss of power with puffs of nasty black smoke, top speed of around 35-40mph and it just sounds like its going to blow up. Had problems with it since we got it really. I have been told that since we did not buy it in our state that any sort of "lemon law" does not apply since we are considered commercial fleet. Seems like lately, its been in the shop about every 2-3 weeks. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.....

[RSNCAIN1]

Anyone have an idea what the cost difference is between the Ford chassis and the Chevy 5500 or 6500 chassis?

[Catch22]

Anyone have an idea what the cost difference is between the Ford chassis and the Chevy 5500 or 6500 chassis?

I'm getting variences. Usually they're within $5,000, though. The problem I'm getting into is the price of the body. The GMC is a taller chassis, and therefore the body has to be taller to be the same height as the roof of the cab.

[WJVaughn]

we have had similar problems. We took it away from a ford shop to a real diesel mechanic and he found that it was the high pressure internal pump not pumping enough oil into the system. Thing is a pain to replace. You have to take the whole top of the motor off to get to it in the back of the engine.

[RSNCAIN1]

Sounds like a Chevy chassis is the way to go and get the higher GVWR.

[Fighting41NY]

You overload a truck and you break it. Big surprise. Blame Ford???

As NEIOWA pointed out, I agree you can't blame FORD if the truck breaks due to being overloaded. Point well taken, but not my point. My point was that we tried to use an F550 and ran out of GVWR real quick. Back in 2003, the F550 was the only choice. The 6,500 front axle limit gets eaten up real quick on a 4x4, especially if you sit 300 gallons of water betwen the cab and rear axle. Our truck was a 14' aluminum rescue body. All EMS and extrication equipment and we are sitting right at the GVWR limits. Add pumps and water and you will be in trouble weight wise

[neiowa]

You need to keep in mind these Fords or Chevys are light duty trucks. 4x4 or not they are for semi-improved roads (gravel or equivalent). Particularily at the weights we load them to. If you want it to last, load well under GVWR (including load of stout FF in turnout gear) and no ditch hopping.

You need an offroad truck get a real offroad chassis and don't overload it. The old military 6x6 are still usually the strongest option available. A Cl6 chassis with 4x4 another good option.

[Catch22]

You need to keep in mind these Fords or Chevys are light duty trucks. 4x4 or not they are for semi-improved roads (gravel or equivalent). Particularily at the weights we load them to. If you want it to last, load well under GVWR (including load of stout FF in turnout gear) and no ditch hopping.

You need an offroad truck get a real offroad chassis and don't overload it. The old military 6x6 are still usually the strongest option available. A Cl6 chassis with 4x4 another good option.

Now you're not trying to say a bunch of country boys from SW Missouri would do something like that, are you? :D We've actually already made it clear that this is not a "brush truck" in all sense of the word. This thing will be primarily a rescue, but will also be able to get into a field and down some of the larger, flatter trails. Much of our terrain is like what I'm used to in Iowa, and I assume like your area, rolling hills. It's definitely not going to be a Jeep.

Our plan is in the future to get a couple of 1-tons with smaller tanks to do the grunt work in the woods, along with using our Polaris (whenever it gets in).

Here's another thing to throw opinions out on. We're looking to do away with the red-lines and booster reels. Instead, we're going to go with 1" forestry line, because it's lighter and easier to maneuver around. We've also considered having a second, high-pressure pump with a 1/2" line and nozzle on a short reel, somewhat like a car-wash line. It may not make it on this truck, but we're definitely going to look at it on the other brush trucks and for hte Polaris Ranger we've got coming.

[RSNCAIN1]

The overloading point aside it still sounds like the Ford chassis have more problems than they are worth.

[Limeforever]

Sit down with your dealers and discuss it with them. We have spoken with the three big companies that serve our area in (KME, Pierce, EOne). They were very helpful because they did not want toput out a truck that would not function and get a big black eye. They all suggested looking at the GMC 5500 chassis, but as I stated in an earlier post, it was not an option for us due to lack of service. Better get them in ASAP, we are looking at around 6 month delivery time and this is a truck without a lot of bells and whistles. The local utility company uses a lot of International 4X4 chassis here on their line tuck and seem to get pretty good service out of them. Just keep your options open and check out what they all have to offer.

[neiowa]

Here's another thing to throw opinions out on. We're looking to do away with the red-lines and booster reels. Instead, we're going to go with 1" forestry line, because it's lighter and easier to maneuver around. We've also considered having a second, high-pressure pump with a 1/2" line and nozzle on a short reel, somewhat like a car-wash line. It may not make it on this truck, but we're definitely going to look at it on the other brush trucks and for hte Polaris Ranger we've got coming.

Now have both on our wildland truck as had space. Started out with just the 1" forestry (and some 1.5" & 2.5"). I installed a old Hanney reel (1"x150ft) this summer as had it on hand. Reeling in the booster is just a lot quicker and more convient that reloading the 1". Seems to get a bit more flow out of the forestery (200ft) than the booster but have never looked up the relative friction loss ratings. Booster is very convient on small jobs (and the only one in the dept).

[onebugle]

Our brush truck from the 2005 grant cost $133,428 and was built by Classic Fire/E-One. An example can be found at http://www.classicfirellc.com/frfu.asp

Catch if you want a copy of the specs, email me an address and I'll send you out a copy.

The brush truck is equipped with a booster reel. It's main purpose is for ease of operation during small incidents. As pointed out, deployed quickly and just rewind to repack. All of the incidents that the brush truck has responded to this year have been handled with just the booster line. There is an adapter for the booster to convert to forestry hose if more line is needed. The vehicle has 2 hose trays: 800' of forestry and 200' 1 3/4" hose. The 1 3/4" hose is a supply line with a gated wye to convert to multiple forestry lines.

Another use for the booster reel (if you don't want booster hose) is to store forestry hose. I have seen departments store as much as 1000" of forestry hose on a booster reel (depending on the size of the reel). Deploy what they need, disconnect and attach to the pump.

As for the F550 issue. We now have 2; the brush truck and a rescue. To date there have been no issues surrounding these vehicles. They have operated without incident.

There have been a number of good points brought out about GVWR etc. What seems to happen is that folks lose focus on what they want a particular vehicle to do. It's designed to perform a certain task, but when delivered they want it to do more. A brush truck with ample space now carrying extrication equipment etc. A light rescue carrying equipment that is more suitable to a medium duty. Even a 4 door cab can have an impact on weight. If you put 4-6 firefighters in the cab that adds up to 1000-1500#
(250# each/NFPA).

We did the same thing. While researching the brush truck, I found the original bib specs for the vehicle that would be replaced (1979 Chevy 3500 PU). The original spec was for a 10,000 GVWR, the department settled on 8,500" hence 20+ of mechanical issues (when put on a scale 1,000# overweight).