Tanker Requirements

[HDFireball1]

I've heard a lot of talk on what are the requirements for building a tanker and having it meet NFPA, like minimum equipment, having two SCBA's with spare bottles. Baring purchasing the NFPA 1901 Apparatus Guide, what are pump requirements on a tanker. And are FEMA's requirements different than NFPA. I've heard 750 GPM is the maximum.

If the truck exceeds the NFPA requirements then it meets them. Does FEMA/AFG care or does the entire scope of the project change and is now different than what we were awarded for?

[BC79er]

The 750gpm limit was their line for what was a pumper and what was a tanker. So 500gpm/2000gal is a tanker, 750+gpm/2000gal is a pumper. If you are awarded you can always buy more than you applied for if you have the money for it after competitive bidding. So if all you want is a 500gpm/2000gal and someone says they can build you a 1000gpm/2500gal for the price you have, then upgrade. Buying more than requested for the same money is always encouraged. :)

[Fighting41NY]

Brian, I like your logic and it does meet NFPA, but, it sounds like a loophole that DHS would want to plug. In 2004, we were awarded a tanker. We bought a pumper/tanker 1500gpm, 1800 gallon truck. At the time, DHS defined a tanker based on water >1250 gallons. This is know a pumper per the new definition, pump >750 gpm regardless of water. So, are you saying we can apply for a tanker again since we once again don't have a tanker? Wouldn't the same scenario apply with HDFireball1? If he wanted a pumper/tanker, he should have applied for a pumper not a tanker? His application probably said he had an old tanker or no tanker per the DHS definitions and was scored on this not his newest pumper. Just curious because a lot of tanker awards are out there and this could be one of those issues??

[HDFireball1]

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. We applied for a tanker based on our current situation and needs. I understanding that getting more should not be a problem. But if getting more puts us in to another category IE. Pumper, when we applied for a tanker does it make us now outside the scope of our grant project? This is and was NOT our intention but I want to make sure we are playing by the rules.

It's almost the same as saying we applied for PPE and then if awarded we purchase a TIC. It changes the scope of our grant proposal.

Sounds like Fighting41NY did the same thing in '04. They upgraded.

My other dilemma is sounds like DHS classifies apparatus differently than NFPA. What’s with that if the truck needs to be built to NFPA specs?

[Catch22]

You're a little different than your comparison of applying for PPE and getting a TIC. If you get your tanker and make it a pumper/tanker, you're still meeting what you were trying to do with your tanker. You're just adding the ability to be a pumper. It would be more like getting a PPE grant and having enought to buy your helmets with a TIC mounted on it. It's still functioning the way you reqeusted (head protection), it just does some more now.

I did the same thing in '05; got a tanker, built a pumper/tanker. The only thing is there's a lot more equipment I had to put on it when we did it.

[AFDRAS]

Program guidance states "We consider tankers or water-tenders to be firefighting vehicles with a carrying capacity of 1,000 gallons or more and with pumping capacity of less than 750 gpm. A firefighting vehicle with a carrying capacity of more than 1,000 gallons and pumping capacity of more than 750 gpm will be considered to be a pumper under AFG.

Guidance also states "Applicants will not be allowed to modify the scope of work of a vehicle award (i.e., change the type of vehicle to be purchased after the application is submitted)."

Sounds to me like you need to stay in the parameters set forth for a tanker/tender.

[imafireman]

The 750gpm limit was their line for what was a pumper and what was a tanker. So 500gpm/2000gal is a tanker, 750+gpm/2000gal is a pumper. If you are awarded you can always buy more than you applied for if you have the money for it after competitive bidding. So if all you want is a 500gpm/2000gal and someone says they can build you a 1000gpm/2500gal for the price you have, then upgrade. Buying more than requested for the same money is always encouraged. :)

I hate to disagree with you Brian, but what you are saying here is wrong. If you put a pump larger than 750gpm, you changed your program. They will not allow this!! Your final purchase would be a pumper instead of a tanker.

Kelly

[neiowa]

Catch22 on this. For 07 Grant app our objective was purchase of a water supply rig, big tank with large pump and CAFS. A CAFS tanker pumper but among the options for type of truck you might chose : were tanker, pumper, CAFS pumper. I selected CAFS pumper as did not want to get in this problem of GPM. Then in the narritive I discussed why we need the big tank. Replacing a 2600gal homebuilt tanker and a non-operational supply pumper etc.

We get the questions but reduce the project to $200,000. After thee weeks today DHS rep finally calls me and they did in fact keep classified as CAFS pumper with $200,000 cap. Does not meet our performance objectives as discusseed (and approved in peer review) so will continue with appeal process.

But now I have to do some more research on what that a beer budget CAFS pumper runs. Buy one for $200K? I doubt it. My guess is a Pierce Contender or competitor with 1250gpm, 1000gal and CAFS will run $225 min. Then add on bigger chassis, longer body, bigger tank, rear mount pump and back to my start estimate.

Anyone have a current price?

[Catch22]

LVFD needs to jump in on this one. He got a CAFS rig the same year I got our pumper/tanker. Not sure what it ran him or the exact specs, but I'm sure he's got some insight.

Might even be able to find some old posts of his about the truck. I think he was playing with it when I called him the other night.

[BC79er]

Folks, the scope change they are talking about involves changing to SMALLER specs. So if you are awarded for a tanker then you can't buy a pumper, or a quint, or a brush truck. But you can put on CAFS and a bigger pump as long as it still has the water capacity that you asked for since that was the primary purpose of the application.

Adding something 750gpm to a tanker makes it a pumper in DHS's view ONLY AT APPLICATION TIME. If you can buy more truck at AWARD time than you expected then you are fully expected to do so. Already been dealing with this issue this year, checked with FPS-like people and everything. Check with your local FPS also, but I will be very surprised if they give a different answer since I've already gotten the one I posted earlier from more than a handful as well as the folks in DC. I don't make things up as I go along, I check with the authorities before I give advice in here. Professional integrity is job #1. :)

[steelman]

Here's the deal guys.....if you applied for a tanker, with a 500 gpm pump and 2500 tank, and were successful in getting a grant for said vehicle, you can upgrade the pump to anything larger as long as you keep the 2500 gallon tank. The DHS people will approve the larger pump size with no hesitation as long as you still deliver the 2500 gallons to the fire scene. If you can get a larger pump, i.e 1000 gpm, for the same price, why wouldn't you... its a no brainer...been there done that.......

if you asked for a camaro and found out you could get a porsche for the same price would you do it? of course, and you still got the sportscar....

[CordovaFire]

Guys, this discussion could go on forever. The best thing to do is discuss your change with DHS. Let them know what you want to do and get their "permission" so to speak. They are not likely to decline what you want as long as you have the same general scope of the project. Especially if you make your change by adding additional funds from your end to make it happen. And remember to get it in writting. If you speak to them on the phone get them to email you their answer, get "everything in writting" -- CYA. We had a simular delima. As long as you are paying for the upgrade with your money and not any of theirs they should be OK with it. More or less you build a tanker with their funding and your match. Then you can add more of your funding to upgrade the vehicle if needed. But all is done with their permission first.

[imafireman]

Folks, the scope change they are talking about involves changing to SMALLER specs. So if you are awarded for a tanker then you can't buy a pumper, or a quint, or a brush truck. But you can put on CAFS and a bigger pump as long as it still has the water capacity that you asked for since that was the primary purpose of the application.

Adding something 750gpm to a tanker makes it a pumper in DHS's view ONLY AT APPLICATION TIME. If you can buy more truck at AWARD time than you expected then you are fully expected to do so. Already been dealing with this issue this year, checked with FPS-like people and everything. Check with your local FPS also, but I will be very surprised if they give a different answer since I've already gotten the one I posted earlier from more than a handful as well as the folks in DC. I don't make things up as I go along, I check with the authorities before I give advice in here. Professional integrity is job #1. :)


I beleive you guys are playing with fire here. I placed in our application that we would have a 750gpm pump. Before they would make the award, this email was sent:

" I apologize, but I have one more thing I need to verify with you. Do
you confirm that this request is for a tanker and that it will not have a
pump that has a capacity in excess of 750 gpm?"

This email was sent after the questions were returned and the reduction letter was accepted. Obviously I confirmed that the pump would not be larger than 750gpm. Kurt, what are your thoughts on this????

Kelly

[ktb9780]

I beleive you guys are playing with fire here. I placed in our application that we would have a 750gpm pump. Before they would make the award, this email was sent:

" I apologize, but I have one more thing I need to verify with you. Do
you confirm that this request is for a tanker and that it will not have a
pump that has a capacity in excess of 750 gpm?"

This email was sent after the questions were returned and the reduction letter was accepted. Obviously I confirmed that the pump would not be larger than 750gpm. Kurt, what are your thoughts on this????

Kelly


bc79er , not intentionally tyring to disagree with you here but I think you and I are getting conflicting stories here from DHS. See below email exchange with Tom Harrington from severl weeks ago ref imafireman award on his tanker application:

Question: I have a client who received an award for a 3000 tanker with 750 gpm pump.

They are getting bid specs now on the tanker and have been informed that they can place a 1250 gpm pump on the tanker for the same price as a 750gpm pump ( apparently the only difference is that the 1250 has two discharge lines instead of one). The client stated that one of the specific questions he had to answer for his FPS was assuring that the tanker had a 750 gpm pump on it.



Is there some prohibition from deviating upwards here to the 1250 gpm pump on this tanker? I was under the impression that DHS did not care about an upwards deviation as long as the minimum capabilities were obtained IE 2500 gal tank requested and 3000 gal tank ordered at same price. Am I missing something here?

Answer: Our program guidance (using NFPA specs) define pumpers as anything with a pump in excess of 750 gpm - regardless of water capacity. Anything with more than 1,000 gallons of water and a pump of 750 or less is considered a tanker. Placing a larger pump on the vehicle is technically changing the type of vehicle being purchased (bait-and-switch). That's a no-no.


Kelly, we have asked and had your question answered at the highest level of AFG. I would error on the side of caution here and follow what we have been told. :rolleyes:

[imafireman]

Thank you Kurt. All of the specs have been changed to the 750 gpm and we are proceeding as planned.

[Fighting41NY]

We got our tanker award in 2004. Back in 2004 a tanker/pumper had to just have >1,200 gallons of water, regardless of pump size. We put a 1500 gpm pump on it.

Per the new rules, it's now a pumper.

I guess we can apply next year for another tanker and get great odd's since we don't have a tanker. I wonder how I would explain the previous tanker award that's now a pumper?

Got the LDH award today, ROUND 3!!!!

[neiowa]

Today finally got the right guy at Fire Grant regarding our "appeal" of the reduction in our project. Also asked him about this tanker issue. He told me that if applied for a tanker and you install a larger than 750gpm pump it is no longer a tanker, and a problem. They are strickly going what is in NFPA 1901.

And as silly as some of the 1901 stuff is for rural FD that is the "rules"/"law" Perhaps time to get involved in the 1901 so a pumper has a REAL tank on it and a pumper tanker has a REAL pump. A city/1901 pumper (IE: tiny tank) is only of marginal use in rural area in my view.

[BC79er]

Glad to see everyone at DHS is "agreeing" to adhere to NFPA on vehicles but we can ignore NFPA on SCBA and some other equipment. Nothing like consisitency. :rolleyes: Especially since I already have a handful of vehicle award winners from earlier rounds that were given permission to increase pump size past 750gpm on "tankers". Good thing it's in writing for them, you never know when there's a change in horses mid-stream...

And since NFPA 1901 doesn't have any maximum pump size on the tanker definition, exactly what standard is DHS following? NFPA allows hybrids and DHS doesn't want to fully acknowledge NFPA 1901, so what's a person to do? Looks like there will be some discussions before next year's PG gets done.

[BC79er]

Oh, and I wonder why people are being allowed to increase tank size on pumper awards to over 1250gal but that doesn't make them a tanker. Hmmm.

[HDFireball1]

Oh, and I wonder why people are being allowed to increase tank size on pumper awards to over 1250gal but that doesn't make them a tanker. Hmmm.


Good Point! I'm also sure some discussion will happen before the next PG. Where do you draw the line? Some changes should be allowed especially when the 'upgrade' doesn't cost the project anymore but how do you stop the changes the effect the proposed project? (If I made sense of that).

[RAMFIRE42]

My 2006 afg tanker was for a 2500 gallon tank and a 1250 gpm pump. The application was written as a tanker. The app went through peer review as a tanker. The app was awarded as a tanker. Lastly the truck was purchased as a tanker. In my opinion this is unexceptable from fema.

Kelly.
Have the truck delivered to you with the 750gpm pump. Make the builder plumb the extra discharges and cap them. When the truck is delivered buy the valves and put them on. 1250gpm pump, There problem solved!!!!

This could get interesting. Good Luck.

[neiowa]

Oh, and I wonder why people are being allowed to increase tank size on pumper awards to over 1250gal but that doesn't make them a tanker. Hmmm.

Just checking 1901 which says min. tank size for a pumper is 300gal (about as useful as a stack of buckets). So how does that work into 1901 is the "law". Luckily they aren't restricting our tank size (apparently). Also are limiting us to 1600ft of LDH per 1901 Supply Hose (where that is written I'm not sure 5.8.2 is the closest I see which ref 2.5" or larger 800ft).

[imafireman]

My 2006 afg tanker was for a 2500 gallon tank and a 1250 gpm pump. The application was written as a tanker. The app went through peer review as a tanker. The app was awarded as a tanker. Lastly the truck was purchased as a tanker. In my opinion this is unexceptable from fema.

Kelly.
Have the truck delivered to you with the 750gpm pump. Make the builder plumb the extra discharges and cap them. When the truck is delivered buy the valves and put them on. 1250gpm pump, There problem solved!!!!

This could get interesting. Good Luck.

No way. I am specing a 750 gpm pump and am not deviating from it!! BC, I am sorry I was a thorn in your side these last couple of days, but I had already been through the asking at the top and knew what his answer was. It is a shame that answers are so different depending who you talk to. I just do not want to see anyone getting into trouble over this issue!! :)

[ktb9780]

[QUOTE=RAMFIRE42;849018]My 2006 afg tanker was for a 2500 gallon tank and a 1250 gpm pump. The application was written as a tanker. The app went through peer review as a tanker. The app was awarded as a tanker. Lastly the truck was purchased as a tanker. In my opinion this is unexceptable from fema.

QUOTE]

Somehow the words "that was then, this is now" seem to be coming to mind right about now! LOL! Rules change, loopholes get plugged, opinions and interpretations change from one person to another and still life goes on. :rolleyes:

[steelman]

another snaffu in vehicle priorities......a Quint being classified as a Pumper, it's a totally different animal and definately needs to be addressed before next year.........a tanker is 1000 gallons or larger per se....if you can deliver 2500 gallons to the fire scene wouldn't it makes sense to have the capability to pump it off with a decent size pump, who's making the rules for the guidance? firefighters or non-firefighters?......imo a 750gpm pump or smaller is worthless on any apparatus except for brush trucks...........

[BC79er]

Funny thing is that NFPA says 750gpm and larger (meaning inclusive of 750gpm) is a pumper. So why the difference in DHS saying tankers can have 750gpm when that's what makes them a "pumper"? Even though the compartmentation and other goodies count also....

Kelly, no problem man. Just trying to get people what they deserve instead of having to deal with these BS minor details. DHS is trying to catch a few people and instead is hurting the whole. A larger pump makes it a more functional truck, doesn't make it change scope. Oh well. Hadn't even thought about the 75' quint counting as a pumper, that's a whole other can of worms. For a different day. Time to head out for dead cow and old hops & barley. :D

[neiowa]

.... DHS is trying to catch a few people and instead is hurting the whole. .... :D

Likely the Fire grant program, as all things the Feds touch, is "maturing". IE turning into a bureacratic morass. Nature of the beast. See NASA, early 60s thru early Apollo was a vibrant innovative outfut, but has now same as HUD, USDA, or DOI, doing little more than consuming tax $.

[imafireman]

Funny thing is that NFPA says 750gpm and larger (meaning inclusive of 750gpm) is a pumper. So why the difference in DHS saying tankers can have 750gpm when that's what makes them a "pumper"? Even though the compartmentation and other goodies count also....

Dont go there Brian with the 750 thing!!!:eek: After I submitted my application, I read over this again and noticed what you are saying. I was hoping we could still get through even though I requested a pump of a minimum 750gpm. Fortunately, they passed it through. If we would not have been awarded so early in the process, I would have really been kicking myself and thinking those couple of words really messed us up. I hope you enjoyed the dead cow!!:)

Steelman, I agree and disagree with you on what you are saying about a 750 gpm pump. It would have been nice to go with a 1250 on this, but we are just happy that we will be able to replace our old tanker. Most of our fires in this rural area is fought with 1 3/4" lines and occasionally a 3". Either way, we can still pull the 2- 1 3/4" lines and flow 400 gpm and fight a lot of residential single family fires. This however will not allow us to also remove the other pumper we were considering taking out of service along with this tanker due to the effects on our ISO ratings. It is very rare that we get into the really big fires like a lot of you guys.

[firegod101]

Ok so what i am reading here is...we were awarded "X" amount of dollars for a tanker. We can get a whole lot more truck for our money. So if i upgrade, this is wrong. I was under the impression that as long as you met your minimum grant request it is wrong?...Gonna have to call the DHS on this one.

[Greenacres2]

I can see both sides of this one. If we have water, we want to pump water. Got to be able to do more than dump it, and the multiple structures saved by the sidewinder on our tanker bear that out. On the other hand--primary purpose of a tanker/tender is to deliver water to the scene. And, unfortunately, some depts that are competitive on a tanker app would sink with a pumper app. So...with the intent of levelling the playing field, the rules committee has tightened a definition.

For us, 750 gpm offers the ability to be versatile with a tanker, but forces us to commit our engine to her main job. That 750 gpm flow has saved at least 4 buildings in 3 years at over $750,000 in value. Not bad for the second truck out the door. If we can get that kind of service at 95% taxpayer funding, i'll live with those rules.

Just my opinion, not reflective of my dept, my township, my family or Merry (the family dog).

earl

[steelman]

"Applicants will not be allowed to modify the scope of work of a vehicle award (i.e., change the type of vehicle to be purchased after the application is submitted)". quote from the program guidance....

..in 2004 we applied for a tanker with a 2000 gallon tank and did not mention the size of pump, we were awarded the requested vehicle. Our tanker came with the 2000 gallon tank and 1000 gpm pump.......

2007 is different according to the quote above...if you requested a tanker with a 1000+ gallon tank and 749 gpm pump or less, that's what you have to purchase....basically your only option is a 500gpm pump. the guidance clearly states that 750 gpm or above is "pumper" and less than 750 gpm is "tanker". i've never heard of a 523gpm pump or 749 gpm pump.......mabye they make those in some other country......there is a definate "gray" area in the program guidance when it comes to pump size...........

If you are lucky enough to be awarded a vehicle (they are few and far between) take what you requested...wasn't there a reason why you asked for a specific type of vehicle in the first place?

[accesslocks]

Well we got shot down on our upgrade pump size, we spec'd a 2000 gallon tank, 1000 gpm pump in the narrative.. We were awarded the grant. We then decided to upgrade to a 1250 gpm pump and add foam to it, all costing approx $12,000 more, We decided we could come up with the additional cost prior to end of the project. I contacted our grant specialist and was told we could not upgrade!! 500gpm pump is max on a tanker, we would be changing our scope of the project!! Their comment was, 1) doesn't sound like you really needed the grant to begin with if you can come up with $12,000 more. 2) you can do two things, put the 500 gpm pump on and go with the project or place the upgraded 1250 gpm pump and come audit we will take the truck!
Well.....guess we are going to play the rules of their game....
It would have made this equipment more versitile as well as more interoperable between departments as everyone uses the same pump we mutual aid with, now we have a different pump in the picture....
OH Well..sorry for ranting...

[WJVaughn]

I admit I do not know a lot but I would think that a pump of a larger size say 750 or 1000 gpm would make sense in today's world. Smaller departments are making more calls with fewer people and more water you can move with fewer people the better you are. I realize that there has to be a cutoff but who decides what is what, nfpa?

[onebugle]

Well we got shot down on our upgrade pump size, we spec'd a 2000 gallon tank, 1000 gpm pump in the narrative..

Are they telling you to downgrade to 500 GPM or is the 1000 GPM a misprint?

[BC79er]

If you applied for a 1000gpm/2000gal truck then according to them you applied for a pumper with a 2000gal tank and that's what was awarded. So there is no scope change to go to 1250gpm pump from what is written here. Check and make sure that they didn't reduce the pump size on you. If they didn't, they can't. If they did, then they're right, no pump change. You can add the foam and anything else, just not the pump.

[accesslocks]

We were asking for a tanker, but our narrative did state 1000 gpm, I realized this after we got the 1199A and questions.....I will take full responsibility as I wrote the grant... Just thought we could upgrade at our own expense...guess not!

[BC79er]

What did the request details say? If you specified 1000gpm in both the narrative and request details then you were approved for a pumper being as the gpm is above 750. Meaning you can make the pump or tank as large as you want. If it's only in the narrative you'll have a tough fight if you didn't spec gpm in the request and chose tanker as the type. Otherwise they approved you for pumper-tanker they (by law) can't stop you from going to 1250 from 1000. We all have to comply with the law, including DHS.

[accesslocks]

Looking at my worksheets, In my details I had pumper/tanker, when I completed my final application, I only inserted tanker.... crap !!! I don't have any grounds to fight with....We will be happy with the tanker!

[BC79er]

I can't remember if pumper-tanker was a choice or not. One I worked on we picked Tanker as vehicle type and specified in the description that it was a pumper-tanker with gpm and tank size. Was awarded also, but since they're at 1500gpm already not worried about increasing anything so haven't brought it up about making changes. Only thing they'll do is try to pay for the custom over the commercial.

And like you said, the truck you'll be getting is better than the one you have so all is still well.

[neiowa]

My FY07 app was CAFS pumper. Replacing an homebuilt/nonNFPA unbaffled 2600gal tanker and inop 1970 pumper (supply). Narr and details for 3500gal and 1500gpm CAFS. Went thru appeal to get full req restored and specifically discussed why 3500gal, why big pump (supply/LDH relay), why CAFS with "the guy who decides how much". We said I'd convienced him (in abuot 90 seconds (easy sell job). And we got full funding restored.

Going to get it done for the grant budget???? May need more $. Bids in process. Spending $7k on envirowackos emmisions BS for a truck that will drive 300mi/yr for the next 30yrs just burns my butt. You have a dem congresscritter, next time you see them just kick 'em in the .....

[Fighting41NY]

I'd spec and order the tanker with the 500 gpm pump, but pick a midship pump that has the capability to be upgraded to a 1,000 gpm pump in the future. Only get the two 2.5" discharges plumbed and have it specified, UL tested and delivered as a 500 gpm pump. Couple years down the road, add on two more discharges for a few thousand dollars. I don't think this would be fraud nor does the PG say you can't alter the truck's classification in the future. Just my opinion, not based on any expertise or past experience. Most of the pumps are the same anyways, they just change the number of discharges or the manifold to get more gpm.

[imafireman]

I can't remember if pumper-tanker was a choice or not.

Pumper-Tanker was not a choice this year although it was in 2006. I was going to choose it if it was. I cannot believe that the new classifications list a piece of apparatus carrying 3500 gallons of water with a pump larger than 750 gpm a pumper. Sure looks like a tanker to me!!:eek: