no test no agility

[jcgafford]

hello all, just a question to those of you in the hiring realm. i recently applied to a professional department that is an equal opportunity employer according to the city web site. after about six weeks of waiting for a response as to when the written and physical agility testing was to take place i recieved an email from the human resources department thanking myself and about thirty other candidates for applying,(it was a general mailing to all of us at once) but they have already chosen the person they want to hire. is this a normal procedure? all other departments have leveled the playing field by requiring all candidates both external and from their paid on call to go to testing. something about this just does not feel right. anyone run in to this before?

[Halligan80]

Have you called and asked what happened? That would be my first move. What you are saying does sound odd. Did you ever turn in an application?

[jcgafford]

originally the city would only accept resumes according to the job posting. so i called human resources and spoke to them about it and they advised that the written and agility info would be sent to us. then nothing for right around six weeks, then a general email to a bunch of us. their email stated that the city had found the person they wanted to interview for the position.

[CaptBob]

Some agencies will select candidates they want to interview through the review of the qualifications on their resumes.

The resume is often the first thing HR, an oral board or review panel will see. How do you think your resume would up against the competition to make the cut?

[jcgafford]

CaptBob, as anyone would probably respond, my resume is great! Truthfully though I have spent a long time both with the preperation of the actual resume and with the certifications that i have attained to coincide with it. For the department in question I can truthfully say that I qualified above their standards in both ff and ems. I have been interviewed at three other departments and have been placed on their lists and have also made it to both the physical and written tests for each department i have ever applied to (besides these three, total of seven I believe). My thought is that they are a combination department and that they already knew who they wanted, which is great. The guys that put the time in and strive to stand out as paid on call should get a little nudge in the ranking. But to dismiss the testing? just feels wrong.

[CaptBob]

My thought is that they are a combination department and that they already knew who they wanted, which is great. The guys that put the time in and strive to stand out as paid on call should get a little nudge in the ranking. But to dismiss the testing? just feels wrong.

You're probably right.

CaptBob, as anyone would probably respond, my resume is great! Truthfully though I have spent a long time both with the preperation of the actual resume and with the certifications that i have attained to coincide with it.

Do you have a one page resume?

[jcgafford]

yes, the regular professional resume is one full page (college, career goal, job history). the rest of the bound "resume" is certifications and licenses.

[CaptBob]

the rest of the bound "resume" is certifications and licenses.

Bound??? Hmmmm. Here's some ideas

Most resumes are poorly done. The business resume format is not the best for firefighter candidates. That’s because with the high volume of candidates, the raters only have a few moments to look at resumes before you walk into the room.

What's the first impression the job panel has of you? Your physical appearance, yes. What else? Your choice of words, eye contact, and your hand shake are all important. You probably missed the most important point!

Your application and resume before you walk in the room! I can't tell you how many times we've seen applications with misspelled words, horrible spelling, chronological order wrong, and we haven't even seen the candidate.

I'm a one-page resume guy for entry level; without a cover letter. Do not give us a book. we will not read it. The board does not have enough time. And do not come a interview, any interview, thinking you are going to hand the resume to us and we're going to read it then. That is not going to happen. Often candidates will come in, they will try to hand out resumes, it upsets the normal flow of the interview. We're going to read it before you come in the room. If you can submit a resume, get it to personnel to be placed in your file before the interview. Don't fax It. Make the appropriate copies and hand deliver or FedEx them.

A candidate faxed me his resume for review. The cover letter for the position he was applying for stated, "Attached is a "brief" description of my qualifications." I laughed out loud because he had sent me a book. The printer ran out of paper. Save a tree, the raters will not read these volumes. Don’t make me send out a search party to find your great stuff. Hit me with your major qualifications, starting with your experience, on one page. Write it believing the raters won’t go past the first page. Keep it simple.

On a chief's oral you can add more to your resume for education and letters of recommendation. But don't forget to still put the important stuff on the first page, because that's what the raters are going to be looking for.

On the first page of your resume, many people start with their education. For me, I like to have experience jump right off the page. Hit me with experience, bam. Fire fighting, bam. Some kind of training, apparatus operator training, fire school, whatever it is. Hit me with that experience. And that doesn't necessarily have to be in chronological order or fire service experience. So many of the resumes I see, way down at the bottom of the first page, I find the important stuff. Because that's how it falls in chronological order. It starts with some education up here, some college, whatever, blah blah, experience, now we're down at the bottom of the page where I might not see it.


I was reviewing a candidate's resume and in chronological order his paramedic certification was at the bottom of the page. I asked him, "What were the most important items on his resume? He said, my firefighter 1 and paramedic certification." They were at the bottom of the page where they might be missed. We put those items on top, so those are the first things that hit you. We put the dates on the right side of the page where it can be referenced. Once you put the dates on the right-hand side of the page, you list your experience in order of importance; not chronological order. This makes a big difference.

My suggestion for a firefighter resume format:

Carl Mcfly
1284 Main St.
Kensington, Ca 94588
Phone: 510-286-5890 e-mail: Iwantafirejob@aol.com

OBJECTIVE: To achieve a level within the fire service.

PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE:

Firefighter Fire Department, CA 2-00 Present
Duties include but are not limited to fire suppression in structural as well as wild land environments and emergency medical services under highly stressful emergency conditions. Also, fire prevention, public education, vehicle and station maintenance under the supervision of a Captain, always focusing on providing quality customer service.

Engineer (Acting) 2-03 Present

Firefighter Fire Department (Auxiliary) 3-99 2-00
Perform in a probationary capacity under emergency situations, fire suppression, emergency medical services, also fire prevention, public education, vehicle and station maintenance.

EMT Ambulance Service, CA 3-99 2-00
Perform under emergency situations; emergency medical services under the direction of Redondo Beach and L.A. County Fire Department Paramedics. Vehicle and station maintenance and Code-3 driving.

INSTRUCTOR Emergency Response CPR 3-03 Present
Adult, Child, & Infant CPR training for the community as well as for the professional rescuer.

Owner/Operator Pool Company, CA 5-97 2-00
Service and repair of residential and commercial pools and spas according to County Health Department specifications.

EDUCATION: (is space is needed to keep on one page, these can be placed in two columns)

Bachelor’s Degree
EMT Defib and Combitube certified
Firefighter I
Red Cross certified CPR Instructor
Firefighter II
Federal Red Card System Member
Driver/Operator State certified
Class B Driver’s License

If you have space left using a size 12 fount on the first page you can add:

ACTIVITIES
Member of State University Track and Field Team.
Member of State University X-Country Team.
Volunteer for Hubbs Institute White Sea Bass Population Restoration Project.
Volunteer for Red Cross on various projects

That’s all you need. Nothing more, nothing less. Keep it simple.

If you have the opportunity to get that application ahead of time, take it and make a photocopy of it. Then plug in the information. Have a qualified person correct it.

When my son was trying to get on the fire department, he had his mom do that. She is a good speller, and a good typist. Put everything down. Then you've got something that you can transfer to the real application, and that becomes boilerplate. Then you can use it any time you have a new application. Many applications now are computer generated. They are difficult to type your information into the limited space. These applications can be scanned into a computer where you can easily fill them in.

Make a photocopy because you never know when you're going to that job interview. I talk to people who have put in applications, and six to eight months later, they don't have a copy and don't remember what they've put down.

[ffbam24]

Definitely not an expert, but I wanted to ask about this bound "resume".
Did they ask for a separate packet of certifications in addition to the one page resume?

bam

[jcgafford]

they did not ask for it to be bound. the first interview that i had for another department did not ask for anything, but they expected a resume and everyone there had one prepared with certs attached. i did not have certs with me and felt like i was fed to the wolves. i must say that this was the chiefs interview. every interviewer since minus one was impressed by the appearance and info and all used it during the interview. the "minus one" was an old battalion chief and if i can remember correctly he said anyone can type up one of these and i believe it was at that time that he tossed it back to me. if i was not the one on the hot seat i probably would have laughed and agreed with him, instead i prayed to get out of there alive. i have not had anyone tell me the bound way is the wrong way to go and i have asked 2 IAFF department chiefs and 3 ff's that have been interviewers. truthfully it looks good if you ask me, and is simple and to the point. my format is almost exactly as CaptBob has above, minus mine is bound to all my certs and licenses.

[CaptBob]

every interviewer since minus one was impressed by the appearance and info and all used it during the interview. the "minus one" was an old battalion chief and if i can remember correctly he said anyone can type up one of these and i believe it was at that time that he tossed it back to me. if i was not the one on the hot seat i probably would have laughed and agreed with him, instead i prayed to get out of there alive.

That should have been a clue


i have not had anyone tell me the bound way is the wrong way to go and i have asked 2 IAFF department chiefs and 3 ff's that have been interviewers. truthfully it looks good if you ask me, and is simple and to the point.

Then let me be the first. Yea, everyone becomes and expert. They might not be telling you what you really need to hear. Happens all the time. If you're testing, making the list and not getting called back you have to be asking why?

my format is almost exactly as CaptBob has above, minus mine is bound to all my certs and licenses.

It might be. OK, I truly only want to help. e-mail your resume to me at captbob@verio.com and see if it can be improved. If you listed all your certs and licenses on your one page resume, why do you need to attach all that stuff in a bound folder? Often when a candidate presented us with a bound book we threw it in the round file when they left, never reading it.

You're looking for a seamless no surprises interview. If you're going in and handing out a book you could be already off on the wrong foot. I hear from candidates all the time that panel members compliment them on a one page resume.

This from Kyle:

I never realized until now how hideous my resume really was. I don't need my resume very often, but when I do it's nice to know it's mint! I can be confident in that now.

from Allan:

Well I'm sorry to say that at 37 years old I thought I knew
how to put together a resume. I sent an e-mail to Capt. Bob with a simple question, he asked me e-mail over the resume for his review. OUCH, man did that hurt!! It came back with all kinds of "who cares" and scribble marks all over it.

Well you know what? I have never had a resume look so
good in my life and with two pages and years of classes, I
thought there was no way it could be one page. Boy do I
still have a lot to learn! I advise you to give Capt. Bob a
chance to look at your resume too, you might just be
surprised by what you see.

The balls in your court.

[CaptBob]

From a previous Firehouse.com article:

http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/Fire-Service-Careers/Resumes-Are-Not-A-Substitute/8$2777

BOB SMITH
Firehouse.Com Contributor

If it doesn't come out of your mouth, you will not get credit!

Question:

If they don't accept resumes, then how are they going to know what I did? Will I somehow have to work all that information in the oral? And if so how and where?

Thank you- a confused wannabe

Reply:

One of the major error's candidate's make is thinking that because I have listed experience and credentials on my application and resume, I don't have to cover everything or go into depth. This is a big ERROR! You have to tell them. Understand if it doesn't come out of your mouth, you will never get credit! I can't tell you how many times we saw some great stuff on a resume and said, "Let's see if the candidate tells us about this?" Many did not.

Yes, you have to work all that information into your oral. You have to be ready to make your presentation before you walk into the room. Many candidates think some kind of magic is going to happen during the oral board. "Magic is where preparation meets opportunity." It is not a difficult task. Most candidates complicate this process.

I suggest you start working up your answers so when the notice comes you don't want to go below and fall on your sword.

[ffbam24]

That's what I was thinking had happened. Nothing like feeling like you were caught with your pants down than at an interview. I can definitely relate to showing up with just a resume and no certs and they end up asking for them. It doesn't hurt to have them at the ready, but I wouldn't present certs unless asked for specifically. Especially since they're listed on the resume.

I defer to the experts here, because I wouldn't be where I'm at if it weren't for the advice I found on these forums, specifically Capt Bob and Chief Lepore.

Hang tough,
bam

[CaptBob]

I can definitely relate to showing up with just a resume and no certs and they end up asking for them. It doesn't hurt to have them at the ready, but I wouldn't present certs unless asked for specifically. Especially since they're listed on the resume.

bam

Serioulsy, how many candidates have been asked in the first oral board for an agency for their certs if they're already listed on their resume? For a lot of reasons many panel members are not from the department your testing for.

There isn't much time to look at the application and resume (if they accept one) of the next candidates coming into the room. Keep it simple. One page resume not in a folder, not cover letter, binder or other cute bound arrangement.

I've heard from candidates who were testing for an agency that wasn't accepting resumes. Firefighters have told them to bring one anyway because it will make them stand out (another one those everyone becomes and expert once their hired). It makes them stand out alright but not in the way they expected. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

[ffbam24]

It was weird. Only happened once. I was actually surprised they were asking if I had anything more to submit with my resume.

bam

[jcgafford]

Every interview that i have been to including the first had department members from the department i was interviewing for and usually someone from the human resources department. even the interviews that had outside departments on the panel had at least the rank of a captain on the panel. at least one member of the panel went through and read every cert that i brought and usually when it was their turn to question me they refered to a cert they were interested in. every interview lasted at least an hour and some almost two so most members took the time while i was answering other questions to go through everything i brought and it appeared to me that they did more than skim through. I believe the solution is going to be to provide the one page resume and bring a bound copy of certs, that way if they ask you have them. if they don't you did'nt try to throw a whole lot of paper they don't want at them.

[polecat]

I see no reason why a candidate should not include a copy of their certificates with a resume of one or two pages. If the interviewer is so busy that thumbing through a dozen or so pages of certs. is too time consuming maybe its time to review their screening protocol? Also, good spellers do not translate into good firefighters,as it was suggested to get your mother to write your resume. Lastly, its alot easier to shred a one sheet resume, compared to a bound book.

[CaptBob]

Hey, if you're bent on brining in your certs, etc put them in a folder and put them on the floor next to your chair.

[CaptBob]

I recently received this resume from a candidate:

Carl Mcfly
1284 Main St.
Kensington, Ca 94588
Phone: 510-286-5890 e-mail: Iwantafirejob@aol.com

OBJECTIVE: To obtain a position as a professional firefighter in the state.


QUALIFICATIONS
As a part-time firefighter/ EMT for the Township Fire Department, I have responded to hundreds of service calls ranging from simple citizen’s assists to industrial structure fires. I have the ability to perform the tasks appointed to me without reservation. I have completed firefighter I & II, as well as Hazmat awareness and operations through County Fire Chief’s Association. I am a state licensed EMT-Basic and have received my certificate of completion as a paramedic. I am a member of the County Technical Rescue Team, as well as the Rapid Intervention Team for the Fire Department.


EDUCATION
2004 Associate of Applied Science Emergency Medical Technology (Paramedic),
1999 Associate of Science,


EMPLOYMENT
2006-Present Firefighter/EMT, Charter Township Fire Department. Responsible for fire prevention and education to the community, fire suppression and Emergency Medical Service to the township of Madison and surrounding communities.

2006-Present Emergency Room Technician, ABC Hospital, Responsible for the triage and care of patients as well as I.V placement and E.K.G. application or anything else the and all other duties assigned by E.R. staff.

2003-Present Paraeducator, Area Schools. Responsible for the everyday education and welfare of school-aged physically and mentally handicapped children.

2004-2000 Firefighter/EMT, Volunteer Fire Department. Responsible for fire suppression, community education and Emergency Medical Service to the township.

2005-2006 Service Technician, Quick Lube. Responsible for sales and customer service, as well as physical labor on customer vehicles.


CERTIFICATIONS
Firefighter I & II, Hazmat Awareness, Hazmat Operations, 36-hour Rapid Intervention Team Training, Department of Community Health and Trauma Section Paramedic, National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians EMT-Basic, Unified Incident Command,FEMA ICS 100, 200, 700, 800, 8 hour Farm Confined Space Rescue, 8 hour Propane Emergencies Program, Emergency Response to Railway Incidents ERRI Course,
Fire Fighters Training Council approved Driver Training Course, American Heart Association Healthcare Provider Basic Life Support CPR and AED, Incident Response to Terrorist Bombings Awareness Level, 8 hour Foam Stream and Flammable Liquids Class.
-30-

Reply: Note the qualifications section that is used in a regular job or corporate resume:

QUALIFICATIONS
As a part-time firefighter/ EMT for the Township Fire Department, I have responded to hundreds of service calls ranging from simple citizen’s assists to industrial structure fires. I have the ability to perform the tasks appointed to me without reservation. I have completed firefighter I & II, as well as Hazmat awareness and operations through County Fire Chief’s Association. I am a state licensed EMT-Basic and have received my certificate of completion as a paramedic. I am a member of the County Technical Rescue Team, as well as the Rapid Intervention Team for the Fire Department.

Reply: This is a duplication of what is already on the resume. It takes up valuable space, causes you to use a smaller fount and is seldom read.

Education and certification should be the same category. Note how jumbled the certifications are. Did you know this candidate has completed his medic requirements and will have his medic cert soon? Maybe this candidate would attach their certs for a road map to figure out the resume. Sending raters on a treasure hunt doesn’t always work in your favor during the interview.

Here’s the revised resume:

Carl Mcfly
1284 Main St.
Kensington, Ca 94588
Phone: 510-286-5890 e-mail: Iwantafirejob@aol.com

OBJECTIVE: To obtain a position as a professional firefighter in the state.

Professional Experience:

Paramedic Associate of Applied Science Emergency Medical Technology (Oct 2007)

Firefighter/EMT, Charter Township Fire Department 2006-Present
Responsible for fire prevention, community education, fire suppression and EMS

Firefighter/EMT, Volunteer Fire Department 2004-2006
Responsible for fire suppression, community education and Emergency Medical Service

Emergency Room Technician, ABC Hospital 2006-Present
Responsible for the triage and care of patients as well as I.V placement and E.K.G. application or anything else the other duties assigned by E.R. staff.

Paraeducator, Area Schools 2003-Present
Responsible for the education and welfare of school-aged physically and mentally handicapped children.

Service Technician, Quick Lube. 2005-2006
Responsible for sales, customer service, and physical labor on customer vehicles.

EDUCATION:

Paramedic Associate of Applied Science Emergency Medical Technology (Oct 2007)
Associate of Science Degree
Firefighter I & II
Hazmat Awareness, Hazmat Operations
Rapid Intervention 36-hour Team Training
Department of Community Health and Trauma Section Paramedic
EMT-Basic
Unified Incident Command
FEMA ICS 100, 200, 700, 800
Farm Confined Space Rescue,
Propane Emergencies Program
Emergency Response to Railway Incidents ERRI Course
Fire Fighters Training Council approved Driver Training Course
American Heart Association Healthcare Provider Basic Life Support CPR and AED
Incident Response to Terrorist Bombings Awareness Level
Foam Stream and Flammable Liquids Class

-30-

Reply: Which resume would you like most if you were a panel member?

Note:

The qualifications section was removed. Duplication.

Paramedic is at the top of the resume.

Since the dates were moved to the right side we don’t have to stay in chronological order. See how this makes a big difference? Now hitting the panel members right between the eyes coming out swinging with the top three professional Experiences are jumping right off the page in BOLD: Paramedic, Firefighter EMT, Firefighter EMT followed by Emergency Room Tech and Paraeducator. Compare this with the original resume.

The Education and Certifications were combined starting with the most important at the top working down. If needed for space two columns could be used.

After cleaning up the resume there was room to go from a size 10-type fount to a size 12 making is easier to read.

I sent back the revised resume to the candidate asking what he thought of the changes. He replied with:

As to what I think about the changes..... Looks real good! As you have probably heard before I thought my own was excellent and yet in a few keystrokes I am outdone.

The resume is just one of the many areas of an oral board you want to have correct for a seamless no surprises interview.

[DeputyMarshal]

I defer to the experts here, because I wouldn't be where I'm at if it weren't for the advice I found on these forums, specifically Capt Bob and Chief Lepore.

Please don't encourage them. They post enough spam here without any help... :rolleyes:

[CaptBob]

For the last five years Asst. Chief Brent Collins of Don McNea Fire School, Batt Chief Stever Prziborowski, Dr. Jen Milus, Captain Bob, Batt Chief Paul LePore and others have been contributing authors for Firehouse.com Career Articles section and the monthly e-mail news letter.
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/section/gen_section.jsp?sectionId=8

Firehouse.com gives their contributors editorial courtesy to include their web site information in the tag line of their forum postings.

They have answered countless e-mails and phone calls from candidates to help them reach their goal of becoming firefighters.

Captain Bob

[DeputyMarshal]

For the last five years ....

Great. More spam in the form of crossposting... :rolleyes:

[CALFFBOU]

DM- Can you please do something to help the cause vs. stirring the pot?

[DeputyMarshal]

DM- Can you please do something to help the cause vs. stirring the pot?

Not stirring the pot at all -- I'm just fed up with spam from the same handful of frequent flyers.

As for "doing something to help the cause", I routinely report spam posts. Does that make you feel better? :rolleyes:

[CaptBob]

I’ve been assisting firefighter and promotional candidates in gaining the skills to gain their badges for more than 30 years. Every once in a while a malcontent seagull flies in, rips apart a posting of time tested proven information, takes a dump and flies away to another forum on a web site to continue their black negative cartoon show as if it was a birth right.

They can’t or won’t list their success rate in helping candidates gain their badges but only criticize those who do. I’m constantly baffled. I saw the same thing working in the fire service. These guys would bid stations to feed on their poison. The collateral damage extended to those around them including their families.

I’m constantly baffled why?

[JayDudley]

Captain Bob... I'm with you . Those who want and need the help you guy's have every right to try and do that. "The seagulls" that you refer to is a great analogy of how they act. Nobody makes you go to yours or anyone else's web site until they click on it.....SO DON'T CLICK ON IT !!

Respectfully,
Jay Dudley, Retired Fire

[ffbam24]

See what you got by asking for help?
A hijacked thread. Sorry.

Hope you were able to discern something out of the posts before the spoiler came. Don't be afraid to post another question or by PM or emailing someone directly. They don't all go this sour.

Good luck,
bam

[jcgafford]

yeah, unfortunate. fortunetly for me though the "spammers" actually gave some great one on one help and never once tried to sell a product, before and after all the bickering started. I even asked about possibly purchasing a tool to help and instead was told where the info I wanted was for free! Thanks CaptBob you've been a great help and keep up the good work!

[ffbam24]

Good luck,
bam

[DennisTheMenace]

I see no reason why a candidate should not include a copy of their certificates with a resume of one or two pages. Unless you are applying for the job of Chief, there is no reason to have a two page resume. It is that simple. If the application asks for copies of certificates, than you supply them at that time. It is OK to bring the certs to an interview, but don't hand them over unless asked. The HR department should have already screened those things, or they will later in the process. You do not want to burden those doing your interview with that, most likly interviewing is just a tiny ancilary duty of theirs, the interview wants to go through the folks in line and pick their best choices and leave the rest of the screening to others and get back to their regular duties.If the interviewer is so busy that thumbing through a dozen or so pages of certs. is too time consuming maybe its time to review their screening protocol? You might be right, but changing that is not the place of the applicant. They have a huge supply of applicants, they don't need to appease the applicants, the applicants need to appease them if they want the job. Also, good spellers do not translate into good firefighters,as it was suggested to get your mother to write your resume. Lastly, its alot easier to shred a one sheet resume, compared to a bound book.Gaad spelers do not make good forum posters either, but it does show attention to detail and makes a good first impression. No one is applying for the job of great senior firfighter with 20 years. They are applying for the job of lowest guy on the totem pole at the fire house, and that means taking care of the little tiny details that make a good first impression. So typing and spelling does count, and since you can have someone else check it easily before you turn your resume in, why would you not?

[UtilityCow]

To Answer The Original Question: It Happened To Me.

At A Rural Department That Has 12 FFs, Some Of Which Are EMTs (No Pay Differential), No Chief, No Admin, No Dispatch, And Two Broken Down Pumpers. I Applied Through The City's HR Department Procedures, And 2 Guys I Know On The Department Went In And Put In A Good Word For Me. The Police Investigator Came Out And Asked Some People Some Questions. Then I Got A Form Letter. No Test, No Nothing. In Fact, The Application Was Pretty Generic.