The Usual Pre-Rant Question

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Did this place have smoke detectors or sprinklers?

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=55080&sectionId=46

[RspctFrmCalgary]

Did this place have smoke detectors or sprinklers?

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=55080&sectionId=46

A neighbor went to check things out after hearing the station's alarm about 4:29 a.m. He called 9-1-1 after seeing flames.

Wouldn't one logically "assume", for now, that statement about the station's alarm is referring to smoke detectors?

Oh, and my thoughts are with the department during this undoubtedly trying time, and I'm thankful the firefighter mentioned wasn't injured.

[FlyingKiwi]

Probably the burglar alarm activated due to the fire.

Sure didn't have sprinklers George. Out of interest for you http://homesprinklers.fire.org.nz/

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Sheri, that's what I thought when I read the first article. The second article seems to paint a different picture. Apparently, the alarm they are referring to is the fire siren, not a fire detection system. I just want to make sure I read it right before I go off.

[Firefighter2230]

From what we gathered while on standby at their other station I believe they did have smoke detectors in the station however it was not tied to any kind of monitoring system.
George you are right ironically the siren had not gone off in 3-4 years.

[nmfire]

If the first person to notice there was a problem was a neighbor seeing smoke and flames, then it is quite obvious there was no alarm system connected to a central station monitoring system.

[hwoods]

I'll agree that whatever they had WASN'T connected to a Central Monitoring Station. We started planning for a new station about the time I joined our Dept, in 1958, we moved in to the new facility in 1964. We had a Rate-Of-Rise Heat Detector Network tied into our Siren System. This building is still in use, and the alarm system has been upgraded to include Smoke Detectors and a connection to a Central Monitoring Facility. Our next Station came in 1992, and has Sprinklers, Smoke Detectors, and Manual Pull Stations, all connected to a Central Monitoring Facility. Considering the Cost of the project as a whole, these items weren't that expensive, and are worth every penny. Protecting Apparatus, Documents, Furniture, etc. is fine, but protection for our People is most important. :)

[RspctFrmCalgary]

Oops, didn't see the 2nd article when I read it yesterday. To me, a siren is totally different than an alarm, that's why I misunderstood. Didn't even occur to me, or the burglar alarm either, Ian. :o Thanks guys.

[Bones42]

But this is the first time a firehouse has had a fire and not had an adequate alarm system. :rolleyes:


We have 2 stations in town. 1 has it's alarm system monitored by our local PD, who is also our dispatch center. The other station has their alarm tied into their building siren. Not great, but better than a lot (from reading these forums).

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

But this is the first time a firehouse has had a fire and not had an adequate alarm system. :rolleyes:


We have 2 stations in town. 1 has it's alarm system monitored by our local PD, who is also our dispatch center. The other station has their alarm tied into their building siren. Not great, but better than a lot (from reading these forums).

Exactly my point.

From what I can gather about this incident, millions of dollars in emergency response equipment was inside a building with inadequate protection. Now, the town has drastically reduced emergency response capability because of a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach to risk management.

Wanna bet that they have an alarm system in the Little League equipment storage room?

This town's taxpayers should be up in arms that the town fathers and the people who run the FD allowed this situation to occur.

No, I have no sympathy. No, I don't have to understand. No, I will not stop posting about this apathetic attitude.

[Catch22]

I'm curious, how many codes and/or cities require smoke detectors in the attic? This is a similar to the fire in Anderson, MO where 13 people died in an assisted living home in that the fire started in the attic.

I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings. I'm sure we've all been on fires where a fire has burned for a long period of time in an attic before it was noticed.

One comes to mind that I was at where a passerby saw fire coming through a home's shake shingles. They went to the door, beat on it, and got the attention of the people inside, who had no clue there was a fire.

[dday05]

I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings. I'm sure we've all been on fires where a fire has burned for a long period of time in an attic before it was noticed.

One comes to mind that I was at where a passerby saw fire coming through a home's shake shingles. They went to the door, beat on it, and got the attention of the people inside, who had no clue there was a fire.

Good point Catch22, like you said we all have had fires like this. We had a fire across the street from my house a couple years ago of which the house had a finished attic and we had a fire in the void spaces of the attic. The fire was cooking pretty good and burning for awhile. The only way it was noticed was someone driving by saw flames shooting out of the exhaust fan. This person got everyone out, and the out come would've been alot different if it wasn't noticed.

[dday05]

Exactly my point.

From what I can gather about this incident, millions of dollars in emergency response equipment was inside a building with inadequate protection. Now, the town has drastically reduced emergency response capability because of a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach to risk management.

Wanna bet that they have an alarm system in the Little League equipment storage room?

This town's taxpayers should be up in arms that the town fathers and the people who run the FD allowed this situation to occur.

No, I have no sympathy. No, I don't have to understand. No, I will not stop posting about this apathetic attitude.

This brings up a good point. I wonder how many departments actually have a smoke detector system in their station. I would be surprised if there are to many to be honest. Sounds like a good poll question and either way it should be something that every dept has in their minds. We have a boat load of equipment worth alot of money like George says and it would make sense to have some kind of detection system. Seems ike there has been alot of stations catch fire this year.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I'm curious, how many codes and/or cities require smoke detectors in the attic? This is a similar to the fire in Anderson, MO where 13 people died in an assisted living home in that the fire started in the attic.

I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings. I'm sure we've all been on fires where a fire has burned for a long period of time in an attic before it was noticed.

One comes to mind that I was at where a passerby saw fire coming through a home's shake shingles. They went to the door, beat on it, and got the attention of the people inside, who had no clue there was a fire.

SCREW THE CODES!

We are talking about the bulk of a municipality's emergency response equipment in a post 9/11 world. Codes are MINIMUM codes and a FD should be responsible enough to protect their community's assets. Talking about codes is a ridiculous copout.

[FDAIC485]

SCREW THE CODES!

We are talking about the bulk of a municipality's emergency response equipment in a post 9/11 world. Codes are MINIMUM codes and a FD should be responsible enough to protect their community's assets. Talking about codes is a ridiculous copout.

Well, they were going to address this right after talking about removing the dynamite from the community church's steeple.

Probably the burglar alarm activated due to the fire.

Sure didn't have sprinklers George. Out of interest for you http://homesprinklers.fire.org.nz/

From what I understand. Homeowner's (Fire) Insurance actually costs more if you have a single-family residential sprinkler system due to the water damage potential. Go figure.

[Catch22]

SCREW THE CODES!

We are talking about the bulk of a municipality's emergency response equipment in a post 9/11 world. Codes are MINIMUM codes and a FD should be responsible enough to protect their community's assets. Talking about codes is a ridiculous copout.

Dude, calm down and get the point of my post before you go off! The point is I know of nothing that recommends anyone to put smoke/fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional spaces in buildings. How many buildings, including your fire station and home, have detectors in those spaces?

The reason I bring up codes is that I don't know of any that require detection systems in those areas. The result is that these guys lost their station, 13 died in a little town in SW Missouri, god knows how many others have died or buildings have burned undetector for long durations because nothing says to put a detector in an area where fire can burn undetected for long durations.

Honestly, even if they had a fire detection system (I haven't seen anyone post one way or the other), would it have detected a fire in the attic, where the story you posted says in the first paragraph that the fire started?

[jlcooke3]

George, you are absolutely correct. Situations like this should not be tolerated. We are viewed as the experts in all manner of emergencies and specifically concerning fires and fire prevention. At the minimum all fire department facilities should have a comprehensive fire alarm system that is monitored by a central monitoring station 24/7/365. It is ironic that the very systems that "we" push, smoke detectors, fire alarm systems, and sprinkler systems are the ones that "we" so often overlook in our own facilities. While it should be common sense we all know that their are those out there that will have excuses as to why they don't have it, didn't get it, etc. One small solution is to require that any facility that is to house any equipment, apparatus, or personnel that is purchased or hired with federal, state, or local grant money must have at the least a monitored fire alarm system. I know that this will only effect a small portion of the depts in the nation it is a start.

[Bones42]

Dude, calm down and get the point of my post before you go off! The point is I know of nothing that recommends anyone to put smoke/fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional spaces in buildings. How many buildings, including your fire station and home, have detectors in those spaces?

The reason I bring up codes is that I don't know of any that require detection systems in those areas. The result is that these guys lost their station, 13 died in a little town in SW Missouri, god knows how many others have died or buildings have burned undetector for long durations because nothing says to put a detector in an area where fire can burn undetected for long durations.

Honestly, even if they had a fire detection system (I haven't seen anyone post one way or the other), would it have detected a fire in the attic, where the story you posted says in the first paragraph that the fire started? Calm down? Are you kidding? Do some searching on these forums. You will find that almost EVERYTIME there is a fire in a fire station, the same discussion is held. Usually, George and/or I both get slammed about "not caring about the FD" or some crap like that. And actually, both of us (and a few others) care entirely. We just don't understand how FD's (you know, the ones that teach people about having smoke detectors, the ones that are "experts" on fire related stuff) don't protect their own stations.

Why is he "going off" on the mention of codes? For the simple reason....we are fire fighters, we shouldn't need codes to force us into using detection systems. Yeah, it's really that obvious. :mad:

We (George and I) will continue to get blasted over these types of posts. Oh well. Maybe one time, one firehouse will actually listen and put in a system. (I'm not holding my breath)

How many buildings, including your fire station and home, have detectors in those spaces? Both stations and my house. I'm a fire fighter, I know better. :) Don't you?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

From what I understand. Homeowner's (Fire) Insurance actually costs more if you have a single-family residential sprinkler system due to the water damage potential. Go figure.

From what I understand, you are dead wrong. And I probably understand more than you.

[Catch22]

Calm down? Are you kidding? Do some searching on these forums. You will find that almost EVERYTIME there is a fire in a fire station, the same discussion is held. Usually, George and/or I both get slammed about "not caring about the FD" or some crap like that. And actually, both of us (and a few others) care entirely. We just don't understand how FD's (you know, the ones that teach people about having smoke detectors, the ones that are "experts" on fire related stuff) don't protect their own stations.

Why is he "going off" on the mention of codes? For the simple reason....we are fire fighters, we shouldn't need codes to force us into using detection systems. Yeah, it's really that obvious. :mad:

We (George and I) will continue to get blasted over these types of posts. Oh well. Maybe one time, one firehouse will actually listen and put in a system. (I'm not holding my breath)

I understand what you're saying, but geez, there's no need to get all up-in-arms about what I feel is a very good point. My mentioning of codes I explained.

I do agree with you, and George, as a matter of fact. There are departments everywhere that risk the total loss of every peice of emergency equipment they house. Both of my departments are the same way. I've mentioned the situation at my career department, and my council doesn't see it as "cost effective" to work into my vollie department. What can I say, I've tried.

But the fact remains, no one here definitively knows whether these guys had a fire detection system in place. Even if they did, it's a rarity (in my experience at least) for a system to have detection points in the attic. I question how many who have posted here that their stations have systems actually have detectors in the attic spaces.

Both stations and my house. I'm a fire fighter, I know better. :) Don't you?

Yes, I know better. I'm working on getting a system in my home (which I haven't owned very long) where there's detectors in all rooms, garage, and attic and they're all wired in together.

Don't think I'm calling George out specifically. Well, maybe since I was a bit pissy, but my point is how many of us do have attic detectors?

[Bones42]

There are departments everywhere that risk the total loss of every peice of emergency equipment they house. Both of my departments are the same way. I've mentioned the situation at my career department, and my council doesn't see it as "cost effective" to work into my vollie department. What can I say, I've tried. Imagine if the Fire Act Grant made firehouse protection a high priority....instead of fitness equipment. :cool:

[Catch22]

Imagine if the Fire Act Grant made firehouse protection a high priority....instead of fitness equipment. :cool:

You may be on to something there... ;)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Don't think I'm calling George out specifically. Well, maybe since I was a bit pissy, but my point is how many of us do have attic detectors?

Give it a shot. Bigger and better than you have tried.

BTW, your question couldn't possibly be more irrelevant.

[Catch22]

Give it a shot. Bigger and better than you have tried.

OK, let me tell you between the lines of what that said. I was not trying to be an ass and admitted that I may have jumped the gun pointing you out specifically in that statement.

BTW, your question couldn't possibly be more irrelevant.

I guess you're going to have to explain this one to me. First of all, by which question you're referring to, whether there are any codes that recommend fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional areas, or if you or your fire station have dectors there.

Either way, I think both are relevant due to the fact this fire started in the attic. The first is due to the fact that I'm curious if there are any codes that recommend/require them. My state is pushing through requirements for alarm systems, etc., and to my knowledge none of them require detectors in the attic. All this due to a fire that started in the attic and spread unnoticed for a considerable amount of time. By the time it was noticed, the cieling was falling in and it was to late to save the 13 that perished.

The latter due to the fact that no one knows if there was a system in place or not. The only hint to an answer to that question is a "From what we gathered while on standby at their other station..." statement. As a firefighter, I'm sure you have had numerous fires where the fire burned unnoticed in an attic space, venting through roof vents and other holes, without any smoke entering the structure until well into the fire.

The assumption that there was no fire detection system in place is just that, an assumption, and nothing more at this point. To criticize them for not having a system is based upon that assumption. To criticize them for not having a system to detect an attic fire while not having a detection system in the attic of your own station or home, is hypocritical. That is the relevance in my mind.

[HotTrotter]

Catch22, I have found that when you are dealing with Lord George here you need to keep it simple. More than 2 or 3 sentences and forget it. And if you agree with 90% of what he says but think his statements need modifying or an addition he goes instantly on the defensive. I don't know how old he is but he acts a lot like many of the crotchety old men you will meet.

Do what I do, read what he has to say and then don’t address him.

On another note though., how many fire alarm systems d owe have out there that give off a bunch of false positives? Seems to me we need a national standard that demands these devices be more accurate. We get so many false alarms that in some places the alarms have lost their integrity, you can’t trust what they are telling you.

I think an alarm system would be a great idea, and actually, you can request them with the grant. But if I need turnout gear and an alram system which so you think I will ask for? I also believe you can aks for these in the FP grants as well. I will admit I haven't read the guidance so I don't know for sure.

[hwoods]

Calm down? Are you kidding? Do some searching on these forums. You will find that almost EVERYTIME there is a fire in a fire station, the same discussion is held. Usually, George and/or I both get slammed about "not caring about the FD" or some crap like that. And actually, both of us (and a few others) care entirely. We just don't understand how FD's (you know, the ones that teach people about having smoke detectors, the ones that are "experts" on fire related stuff) don't protect their own stations.

Why is he "going off" on the mention of codes? For the simple reason....we are fire fighters, we shouldn't need codes to force us into using detection systems. Yeah, it's really that obvious. :mad:

We (George and I) will continue to get blasted over these types of posts. Oh well. Maybe one time, one firehouse will actually listen and put in a system. (I'm not holding my breath)

Both stations and my house. I'm a fire fighter, I know better. :) Don't you?


Bones, count me in as one of those "and a few others". George, you, and a few others are right, and yes, it's preaching to the empty pews again. Those of us who really do care, do something about the problem, to the best of our abilities. Last week, I ran a call for a house Fire, As I'm starting down the road, I'm doing the mental checklist, and remember that this address should be a 2.5 story wood frame/brick veneer, single family home with sprinklers. And it was. What it wasn't was routine. I arrived to find several units there and starting to work on a obvious working Fire. Fire in the only unsprinklered area in the building - The Attic. Codes usually are close to what we have, where all LIVING AREAS must be sprinklered, but little notice is given to anything else, including.... You guessed it - the attic.

[Bones42]

On another note though., how many fire alarm systems d owe have out there that give off a bunch of false positives? What are you terming as a "false positive"?

[FDAIC485]

From what I understand, you are dead wrong. And I probably understand more than you.

OK, Cochise. You are right, I was wrong. My post was made using some bad information.

[HotTrotter]

What are you terming as a "false positive"?

A false positive is when the alarm goes off yet there is no fire.

A false negative would be when there is a fire and the alarm doesn't go off.

[FlyingKiwi]

'Scuse my higorance, but would that be...

A. False Alarm

B. Faulty Alarm

Just trying to clarify all this positive negativity.

[FDAIC485]

'Scuse my higorance, but would that be...

A. False Alarm

B. Faulty Alarm

Just trying to clarify all this positive negativity.

You are not ignant. It's just semantics.

At the JOB, we classify them as either:

Unintentional false: when the alarm is working properly. However, it activated due to cigarette smoke, dust etc.

Alarm malfunction: when the activation was caused by a problem in the system: bad smoke detector, bad heat detector, so forth and so on.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

OK, let me tell you between the lines of what that said. I was not trying to be an ass and admitted that I may have jumped the gun pointing you out specifically in that statement.



I guess you're going to have to explain this one to me. First of all, by which question you're referring to, whether there are any codes that recommend fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional areas, or if you or your fire station have dectors there.

Either way, I think both are relevant due to the fact this fire started in the attic. The first is due to the fact that I'm curious if there are any codes that recommend/require them. My state is pushing through requirements for alarm systems, etc., and to my knowledge none of them require detectors in the attic. All this due to a fire that started in the attic and spread unnoticed for a considerable amount of time. By the time it was noticed, the cieling was falling in and it was to late to save the 13 that perished.

The latter due to the fact that no one knows if there was a system in place or not. The only hint to an answer to that question is a "From what we gathered while on standby at their other station..." statement. As a firefighter, I'm sure you have had numerous fires where the fire burned unnoticed in an attic space, venting through roof vents and other holes, without any smoke entering the structure until well into the fire.

The assumption that there was no fire detection system in place is just that, an assumption, and nothing more at this point. To criticize them for not having a system is based upon that assumption. To criticize them for not having a system to detect an attic fire while not having a detection system in the attic of your own station or home, is hypocritical. That is the relevance in my mind.

If you read the second article, it is clear that the station did not have an alarm system. The "alarm" that these people report hearing is a fire siren on the roof that appears to have shorted out. Hence, we certainly know whether this station had an alarm. It did not.

Here was your question:

how many of us do have attic detectors?

My post made the point that codes are a minimum. A fire station and a private dwelling would follow different sections of the code anyway. There is an enormous difference between a municipality choosing to protect hundreds of thousands of dollars of their primary defense against every type of emergency and a private citizen, albeit an educated private citizen, chooses to protect his privately owned and insured property. That is what makes the question completely irrelevant.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Bones, count me in as one of those "and a few others". George, you, and a few others are right, and yes, it's preaching to the empty pews again. Those of us who really do care, do something about the problem, to the best of our abilities. Last week, I ran a call for a house Fire, As I'm starting down the road, I'm doing the mental checklist, and remember that this address should be a 2.5 story wood frame/brick veneer, single family home with sprinklers. And it was. What it wasn't was routine. I arrived to find several units there and starting to work on a obvious working Fire. Fire in the only unsprinklered area in the building - The Attic. Codes usually are close to what we have, where all LIVING AREAS must be sprinklered, but little notice is given to anything else, including.... You guessed it - the attic.

Of course you are right. The attic, in most residential structures is a vunerable area. But I would think that if the code required sprinklers in a commercial structure, the attic would be included. At least, in my experience, that is the way it is most of the time.

MD is ten years ahead of the rest of the country with their sprinkler codes. Harve, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the codes requiring sprinklers in 1 - 2 family residences aimed at life safety and not property preservation? That is probably the reason for the "living area" provisions.

[HotTrotter]

I have a serious question (go figure). Do these residential sprinklers shut themselves off?

[hwoods]

George, I'm not that conversant with the Code provisions, but it would seem that Life Safety is the Paramount Concern here. I'll see what I can dig up......


Trotter, Fire Sprinklers are not designed to shut themselves off after a certain timeframe has elapsed, they must have human intervention. Now, Lawn Sprinklers are another thing............:D :D

BUT, having said that, We require sprinklers. Period. If you live in a rural area where you are on a Well, tough poopoo, you still have to have Sprinklers. A system supplied by a well must meet certain performance criteria, but even so, it can run out of water.

[FlyingKiwi]

Burning Equine.

Take thyself off to the link I gave at the top of the thread and have a nose bag though the information.

Learning is good.

[HotTrotter]

George, I'm not that conversant with the Code provisions, but it would seem that Life Safety is the Paramount Concern here. I'll see what I can dig up......


Trotter, Fire Sprinklers are not designed to shut themselves off after a certain timeframe has elapsed, they must have human intervention. Now, Lawn Sprinklers are another thing............:D :D

BUT, having said that, We require sprinklers. Period. If you live in a rural area where you are on a Well, tough poopoo, you still have to have Sprinklers. A system supplied by a well must meet certain performance criteria, but even so, it can run out of water.

So in reality, a sprinkler system by itself would be a problem. Imagine the sprinklers go off on Friday night and you are going to be away all weekend. You come home to a flooded house. I will look around and see if I can find some extra info on these things. Matter of fact, going to the NYS Fire Chiefs show this weekend. Maybe I can find info there. a sprinkler system without a good alarm system seems up front to be a bad idea.

[HotTrotter]

Burning Equine.

Take thyself off to the link I gave at the top of the thread and have a nose bag though the information.

Learning is good.

And as I read on....... Thanks for info you flightless fruit :D :D That's a joke son.... (spoken in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn)

[CaptainGonzo]

So in reality, a sprinkler system by itself would be a problem. Imagine the sprinklers go off on Friday night and you are going to be away all weekend. You come home to a flooded house. I will look around and see if I can find some extra info on these things. Matter of fact, going to the NYS Fire Chiefs show this weekend. Maybe I can find info there. a sprinkler system without a good alarm system seems up front to be a bad idea.


A "flooded house" would still be standing, while a burning one would be on the ground...

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

A "flooded house" would still be standing, while a burning one would be on the ground...

But Chief, he's right! Especially since all the heads go off at once and dump millions of gallons of unnecessary water into the unsuspecting house!:rolleyes:

(Isn't it amazing how some FF can be so uneducated on the most important fire protection device out there?)

[Catch22]

If you read the second article, it is clear that the station did not have an alarm system. The "alarm" that these people report hearing is a fire siren on the roof that appears to have shorted out. Hence, we certainly know whether this station had an alarm. It did not.

I guess I've missed the second article. I'm in the routine that typically as more news is released, someone posts it in the thread.

My post made the point that codes are a minimum. A fire station and a private dwelling would follow different sections of the code anyway. There is an enormous difference between a municipality choosing to protect hundreds of thousands of dollars of their primary defense against every type of emergency and a private citizen, albeit an educated private citizen, chooses to protect his privately owned and insured property. That is what makes the question completely irrelevant.
My question was inclusive, and moreso directed towards our (the fire service's) fire stations as opposed to private dwellings. The only reason I ever make reference to our (firefighters) homes is that I feel it hypocritical to recommend or require others to have more protection than we have for our own families.

I wonder why you couldn't answer my question in a civil manner as you did in your most recent post to Harve in regards to codes. I asked a simple, pertinent (albeit, possibly on a tangent) question to those who have more knowledge of codes than I do.

I don't know what commercial and other non-private dwellings have for systems on the east coast, but what I'm familiar with and relating to is what we have locally, which is that no one has anything in the attic (which I reinforced with one shining example that killed 13 in a group home). I'm sure you can agree that any dwelling, be it private, commercial, firehouse, or whatever, can have a fire in the attic that will grow undetected for quite some time? Even to the point that by the time firefighters are able to arrive (particulalry vollies) that the entire roof could be falling in before, or even as, trucks are being pulled out of the bays?

By the way, I'm not making excuses for anyone, I strongly feel that every building with a sprinkler or detection system should have the attics and other nonfunctional areas protected.

[hwoods]

(Isn't it amazing how some FF can be so uneducated on the most important fire protection device out there?)


No.
















:D :D :D :D :D

[HotTrotter]

A "flooded house" would still be standing, while a burning one would be on the ground...

Point being, in both cases the house and contents will be a total loss. However, if you have a reliable, monitored, alarm system that is tied into the sprinkler system then you can eliminate all of the flooding damage as well as the fire. Not saying sprinklers aren't worth it, just pointing out you need more than just a sprinkler system to be effective.

[lexfd5]

Point being, in both cases the house and contents will be a total loss. However, if you have a reliable, monitored, alarm system that is tied into the sprinkler system then you can eliminate all of the flooding damage as well as the fire. Not saying sprinklers aren't worth it, just pointing out you need more than just a sprinkler system to be effective.

Depending on the jurisdiction you may be required to have the system monitored. When the sprinkler goes off an alarm is transmitted to the alarm company and eventually the local fire department. Then they can determine if you did have a fire and take care of the situation (you'd probably come home to a front door boarded up and a note explaining what happened if you do not have a knox box.) You could also just cut the system off at the street, valve or the system.

The only way the entire house would be a lose is if every head went off. 13R systems work like any other commercial wet-system, only goes off is the head is activated.

As for George's rant our stations are monitored and the new ones have sprinklers installed.

[ElectricHoser]

I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings.

Slightly off-topic of the original question, but we sure don't see this mentioned often (ever) in all the fire prevention literature we hand out, but I have put smoke detectors in the attic and accessible dead spaces in every home I have lived in, for exactly the reasons you state. Seems like a no-brainer.

This firehouse fire - well, the fact that it went undetected until too late - is completely inexcusable. My sympathy only extends to any of their grunts who might have tried to change this and were rebuffed. A much smaller degree of sympathy to anyone there who didn't know better... which is no excuse. :mad:

The timing of this event and conversation is interesting for us. Three days ago we got tapped out to a fire alarm activation. Did a double-take on the address.... was one of our stations that wasn't manned at that early hour of the morning. Faulty detector, thank goodness.

[Dalmatian190]

>If the first person to notice there was a problem was a neighbor seeing
>smoke and flames, then it is quite obvious there was no alarm system
>connected to a central station monitoring system.

Gosh, you've never dealt with the wonder morons at ADT?

While *unlikely* it's certainly in the realm of "Has Happened. More than Once."

Our station is connected to trip both the central station and firehouse siren. We have an old fire alarm box at the front door which if pulled does the same (it's hooked into the building's fire alarm as a fire detector).

>A false positive is when the alarm goes off yet there is no fire.

Not appropriate terminology for fire alarms.

A False Positive occurs when a normal situation is erroneously reported as abnormal.

Many things can be abnormal and trip a fire alarm properly without fire being present -- the example that springs to the front of my mind is a frozen sprinkler pipe that has burst that trips the waterflow portion of the fire alarm. No fire, not a false positive. There was an abnormal condition matching what the alarm system was designed to detect.

There's actually few things related to a fire alarm system that can be properly classified as False Positives -- steam, food on stove, dust in detectors in environments they don't normally exist are abnormal situations and by definition not false positives.

There are,thankfully a lot less then in the past, system malfunctions in which the system was exposed to a stimulus matching the profile of what it thinks of as "fire" but instead was had an internal problem that caused it to go into alarm mode. Only in this limited sub-set of alarms where the external environment is "normal" can the term false-positive be applied.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

It is utterly amazing. Another one...

http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/News/Pennsylvania-Firehouse-Goes-Up-in-Flames/46$56360

http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/News/After-Blaze--Pennsylvania-Firefighters-Start-Over/46$56379

Irresponsible. All of a town's emergency response assets in one building that is unsprinklered and unprotected by any type of an alarm system. Completely irresponsible.

But it sure is a good thing that they didn't lose the bar. They sound like they belong on Animal House.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Funny. As I am posting this, I am watching an ADT commercial. Free alarm system with service at $29.99 per month. They could raise that in one night at the bar.:rolleyes:

[DeputyMarshal]

From what I understand. Homeowner's (Fire) Insurance actually costs more if you have a single-family residential sprinkler system due to the water damage potential. Go figure.

Largely urban myth sponsored by the bozos at NAHB. A fire sprinkler will put far less water into a house to control a fire than a couple of firefighters on a hoseline...

Most reputable insurance companies give rate reductions for sprinklers in one way or another. All it takes is shopping for a company that doesn't have it's corporate head up its corporate backside.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Largely urban myth sponsored by the bozos at NAHB. A fire sprinkler will put far less water into a house to control a fire than a couple of firefighters on a hoseline...

Most reputable insurance companies give rate reductions for sprinklers in one way or another. All it takes is shopping for a company that doesn't have it's corporate head up its corporate backside.

The NAHB is public enemy number one to the fire service. They blindsided the US fire service this year and effectively killed the inclusion of residential sprinklers in the revised building and fire code.

I know that won't happen again. They will get crushed the next time this comes up for a vote.

Dep, you are right on the money.

[KyleWickman]

Largely urban myth sponsored by the bozos at NAHB. A fire sprinkler will put far less water into a house to control a fire than a couple of firefighters on a hoseline...

Most reputable insurance companies give rate reductions for sprinklers in one way or another. All it takes is shopping for a company that doesn't have it's corporate head up its corporate backside.

I have family on the west coast. They have a single family house with residental sprinklers. There fire insurance is nil.

On the other hand their earthquake insurance is HUGE!!! :eek:

[ChicagoFF]

Imagine if the Fire Act Grant made firehouse protection a high priority....instead of fitness equipment. :cool:What kills more firemen - fires in firehouses or being out of shape...:cool:

[cozmosis]

Point being, in both cases the house and contents will be a total loss. However, if you have a reliable, monitored, alarm system that is tied into the sprinkler system then you can eliminate all of the flooding damage as well as the fire. Not saying sprinklers aren't worth it, just pointing out you need more than just a sprinkler system to be effective.

I know I'm a few months late in replying to this particular comment, but as I've told people before... Wet things can dry out. Ashes never unburn.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

What kills more firemen - fires in firehouses or being out of shape...:cool:

This isn't about killing fire fighters. You know as well as I do that you could have all the fitness equipment in the world in your firehouse. But the guys who need it the most will not use it. There is zero correlation between pissing money away on fitness equipment and fire fighter fatalities.

The issue here is the fire service, in general, is irresponsible in the protection and stewardship of emergency response assets.

[HotTrotter]

I have some questions


How much does it cost to put sprinklers in a building that is 100' x 40'?
How much is the insurance for a building this size?
How much will the cost of the sprinklers reduce the insurance?


As for #1, I came across something that said to retrofit costs between $2 and $5 per sq foot and can be up to $10

[DianeC]

I have some questions


How much does it cost to put sprinklers in a building that is 100' x 40'?
How much is the insurance for a building this size?
How much will the cost of the sprinklers reduce the insurance?


As for #1, I came across something that said to retrofit costs between $2 and $5 per sq foot and can be up to $10


Unfortunately, it depends where you are...Having worked for an insurance agency on Long Island doing personal lines insurance, the rates were crazy because of the "potential" of a hurricane, and that was before Katrina/Rita hit the Gulf region. I know there was a higher discount (higher then your basic alarm systems, monitoring systems, etc.) if one had a sprinkler system, but in the year and a half I was there, I never came across someone who had one.

I now live in MD, but in a Condo, so my insurance is different. I made sure I bought a place that had a fire sprinkler system. That was my number one "need" and something I wouldn't budge on. The weekend before I moved in, there was a room and contents fire (because the sprinkler worked) in the building across from mine (smoking in bed). And the following newsletter had safety tips and a warning that the master policy rates for the whole complex could go up if residents continue to be careless, etc.

Someone, I think George, mentioned earlier that MD was ahead by 10 years -- MD also had an impressively LOW fire fatality rate for 2006 considering the demographics of the state.

Congress has been trying for years (since the Station fire) to get a bill passed to assist with retrofitting, but it's deemed "too expensive"...Go figure.

HR 1742:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:2:./temp/~c110HpCYYb::

(5) fire caused $10,672,000,000 in direct property damage in 2005, and sprinklers are responsible for a 70 percent reduction in property damage from fires in public assembly, educational, residential, commercial, industrial and manufacturing buildings;

On a side note, since it's almost that time (okay, November), how many practice the art of changing your own smoke detector batteries (where applicable)? :D

[HotTrotter]

Where I am going with this is that just because there are no sprinklers or alarms doesn't mean those entrusted with protection of the assets are being irresponsible. Risk assessment and risk management are very complex subjects. There are two types of assessment, qualitative and quantitative. The quantitative approach puts a numeric value to things. If the cost of the safeguard exceeds the cost of the asset then you either accept the risk or transfer (buy insurance) the risk.

To determine the cost one must look at the single loss expectancy (SLE) and the annual rate of occurrence(ARO). Single loss expectancy is the value of the asset multiplied by the amount of loss one can expect from a single loss. For instance, if my asset cost $1,000,000 and I can expect a 50% loss from a fire, then the SLE is $500,000. If I can expect one fire in 50 years then my ARO is 0.02. The final peice of the puzzle is the Annual Loss Expectancy (ALE). Now you take the SLE x ARO to get the ALE. In the example here the ALE is $10,000. So if the annual cost of the safeguard (sprinklers and alarms) cost more than $10,000 per year it would not be cost effective to install the safeguard. And in this case you would also have to take into account the cost of the insurance.

The qualitative analysis takes into account intangibles and things that you cannot put a dollar value too. There are many techniques for doing this that I'm simply not going into.

The conclusion here is that alarm systems, sprinklers, and and other fire extinguishment systems may not be the best way to protect the assets. They will reduce the likelihood of fire and damage from fire, but may be more costly.

P.S. The link you posted was the result of a query whose results are not accessible any more. Perhaps you could give the query page and the query you used to get there. Thanks

[LaFireEducator]

This is honestly a no brainer.

ALL Firehouses, career or volunteer should have, at a minimum, a monitered alarm system

All firehouses should have a sprinkler system. This is especially important where there is generally nobody at the station.

To argue otherwise shows me that you really don't care how we as professionals present ourselves to the public. First of all, we are entruted with hundereds of thousands of dollars of resources that need to be protected. Secondly we say that they need detectors, and in some areas, sprinklers in thier homes to be safe, yet we don't have them.

Same with using seatbelts and lifevests in boats. If we don't, how can we expect the public to listen to us?

I have the same problem with fireman using fireworks down here in the south.

This is one of those "walk the walk and talk the talk" issues to me.

[jasper45]

All firehouses should have a sprinkler system.



Are you going to come on up then and help pay to retro fit all of our engine houses with sprinklers?
You think this stuff is free?
We're fighting to keep our rigs properly staffed; where is all this money supposed to come from, an already over-taxed, poverty stricken city?

So much for worrying about your own backyard, eh?

[LaFireEducator]

This is a forum where express our opinions.

It is my opinion that all fire stations should have, at a minimum, alarm systems.

You seem to have no problem expressing your opinions about a specific department's operation hundreds and thousands of miles away from you.

This is simply a broad based opinion of mine.

[jasper45]

You seem to have no problem expressing your opinions about a specific department's operation hundreds and thousands of miles away from you.

Wrong. I have a problem with you, and your philosophy on many topics. I know nothing of your department and, I never have taken you as having spoken for your department.
You are the one who has made the remarks about various department policies on any number of issues. You are the one who insists on ramming your ideology on places you know nothing about, and this is another example.
I have no problem expressing my dislike for your opinions on many topics.

Now, answer the question posed. Who is going to pay for all of these cities to retro fit their firehouses with sprinklers and alarms, when many of them are very hard pressed for money.
It’s a ridiculous opinion to take, especially when there isn’t enough money around to staff rigs properly, much less outfit firehouses with something which does nothing to improve a departments level or quality of service.
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would rather put a sprinkler system in a firehouse instead of staffing, or equipment that actually benefits the public.

[ChiefKN]

We had our alarm vendor do an evaluation of our alarm system (and central station) earlier this year. He replaced/upgraded some sensors and the board in the panel. We have central station and I get calls when there is a trouble alarm.

You've got me thinking about sprinklers...

I'll admit my inexperience with residential sprinklers and fire codes, can you install residential sprinklers in a "commercial" building? While we are not exactly commercial, the building and fire load are certainly different from a residence.

I'm also not an engineer, however, I imagine that the engine bays would be the biggest fire suppression challenge. Surely, they would need higher flows than a residential sprinkler?

We also rely on well water, so that would be a big consideration.

Thoughts or suggestions would be great.

[HotTrotter]

This is honestly a no brainer.

ALL Firehouses, career or volunteer should have, at a minimum, a monitered alarm system

All firehouses should have a sprinkler system. This is especially important where there is generally nobody at the station.

To argue otherwise shows me that you really don't care how we as professionals present ourselves to the public. First of all, we are entruted with hundereds of thousands of dollars of resources that need to be protected. Secondly we say that they need detectors, and in some areas, sprinklers in thier homes to be safe, yet we don't have them.

Same with using seatbelts and lifevests in boats. If we don't, how can we expect the public to listen to us?

I have the same problem with fireman using fireworks down here in the south.

This is one of those "walk the walk and talk the talk" issues to me.

It isn't often I disagree with you, but this time I must. I will start by saying there is no such thing as a "no brainier", without doing a complete analysis. I pay $400 to $500, for insurance on my home. If it burns down the insurance company will pay me to rebuild it. They also pay to replace my stuff. I know a person who is going through this right now. His house got hit by lightening and burned up. There was a saver in that some of the walls were still standing. In the meantime the insurance company is putting him up in a temporary apartment. He is getting to rebuild his home the way he wants it and the way it suits him now. He is also getting all of his personal belongs replaced. So where is the incentive? Heck in my case if I installed sprinklers it would cost around $10,000 or $20,000, I have to rip out walls, install pipes, etc. And by the way, I'm on a residential well system. I'm not going to get that much water out of it. I get enough to pass the 5 GPM test required by the bank. I wonder how well these things work in areas where there is low pressure or low flows. But if I did install the sprinklers and an alarm system how much would my insurance drop? surely not enough to cover the cost of the sprinklers. So maybe other incentives are needed. How about a reduction in my taxes. After all, if I am sprinklered and alarmed my needs for the FD will be greatly reduced. The only other thing that could be done is to mandate all new construction have sprinkler systems installed.

I'm thinking that our Fire House would cost in excess of $30,000 for sprinklers. An alarm system would cost us a few thousand as well, after all, this is the municipal building with offices as well. How much of a reduction will this give us in the insurance cost? How long would it take to recoup those cost? Of course there is also the question of what do we do if we lose this place and all of the equipment? In our case, we have two different truck rooms. I suspect if a fire started in one we could get the equipment out of the other one.

The conclusion is that sprinklers and alarm systems will reduce the amount of fire damage, but is it cost effective?

[Bones42]

HT, simple question for you. Your firehouse houses all your equipment and trucks, but no alarm system or sprinkler (cuz it's cheaper to have insurance coverage instead). There is a fire and all the equipment and trucks are totalled. Insurance company says no problem, we'll write the check. In the meantime, you have no building, no trucks, no equipment. What does anyone in your area now have for fire protection for the next 6 months (at minimum) until you have any of that stuff? And how do you ever face the public and tell them, "hey, get insurance, it's better than fire protection."

:rolleyes:

[LaFireEducator]

Jasper ...

I'm not the only one with that message, yet you seem to single me out. But that's fine ...

Let's talk about sprinklers in fire stations benefitting the public....

Your station burns tonight while you're out. How long will it be before that station is rebuilt? How far away are those pre-fire second-due and third-due now first-due and second-due engines? How far away is thier second-due, which would be first due if they are operating in your old district?

You see, this is much more than cost effectiveness or spending not benefitting the public. This is about response times. As you know I'm not a beleiver in that happy horse crap phrase "seconds count", but I know you are, so what about the increased response times? Doesn't that put the citizens at risk? So, in your world it's fine if the station burns and the response times double as that second-due is now first due? Whatever happened to "seconds count"?

This is about protecting assests that, in most cases are in a specific place for a specific reason. Moving those assests will have an effect on response times to the stations for volunteers and out the door response times for apparatus, paid or volunteer.

I won't even ask you how long it would take to get a new rig if that's lost as well.

And Trotter, I sure do want my town hall, especially if records there are still paper-based and police departments covered by sprinklers. This is not about cost effectiveness. This again, is about protecting assests.

[jasper45]

Your station burns tonight while you're out. How long will it be before that station is rebuilt?

In all honesty, it probably wouldn’t be any longer than when an engine house is closed to be refurbished. History here has that at around a year, or so.

How far away are those pre-fire second-due and third-due now first-due and second-due engines?

Right now, they are about a mile to a mile and a half away. The policy now is that if an engine house is closed, the companies quartered in that house are relocated to nearby engine houses. Just like when we have a fire or other significant incident, in which we use something that is called a multiple move-up; we transfer companies to provide the fastest, most appropriate coverage for the entire city, regardless of what is happening.
We run in and cover the first due of our neighboring companies every day, and they come into ours. Quite often companies are on assignment, at the school, or we’re training and have other companies cover our first due during those times. It’s more than just a daily thing here.
Engine houses have also been temporarily relocated while repairs have been made, etc… It’s not a new concept.

So, in your world it's fine if the station burns and the response times double as that second-due is now first due? Whatever happened to "seconds count"?

Seconds do still count, we do the best we can to ensure that they do. There are many policies in place to allow this to happen. See my above reply.

All I asked was who was going to pay for these upgrades? You have a brilliant idea that everyone must follow; fine, show me the money. As I said before, we’re in a fight to keep our staffing every budget process, and now almost every single day. Now, we’re supposed to take money out of our budget in order to retro fit every engine house in the city with sprinklers? Sorry, unless you’re willing to cough up it won’t happen. Sprinklers in the fire house or guys on a rig-hmmm, let me think about that for a bit. Never-mind, I’ll take the staffing any day of the week. I also know for fact, that my city is not the only one with financial problems, there are many spread out over this country that are struggling. What you’re talking about is a luxury item, not a must have, unless of course you’re willing to give up the money for it. Even then, it still makes more sense to put the money on the rigs, where we can actually do our job with it.

I won't even ask you how long it would take to get a new rig if that's lost as well.

Well, probably about an hour, maybe two depending on where the spare rig is located. Then it would also depend on how fast we could load that rig with hose, tools, or ladders so it could be used on the street.

[LaFireEducator]

Jasper ..


Sounds like your department has a plan, but there are many others that do not have the luxury of nearby stations and quite simply, would be in a lot of trouble if they lost a station. The reality is that the firestation is a critical part of the community's infrastructure that needs to be protected.

I am a realist. I understand money is often an issue.

How about a simple solution. How about everytime they rehab a station they include sprinklers in the rehab. After all, in most rehabs the drywall is removed and installing piping would not be a significant issue. I'm suspecting they could probably do a retro-fit at that time for between $3-4 a square foot.

How about when they build a new station, sprinklers are included in the new design. probably $2-3 a square foot.

In time, most if not all of the stations would be covered. It might take 10 years, but with time, it would happen.

I know this will not happen overnight. I know there are competing priorities. But I also beleive that protecting the station needs to be a priority.

[HotTrotter]

HT, simple question for you. Your firehouse houses all your equipment and trucks, but no alarm system or sprinkler (cuz it's cheaper to have insurance coverage instead). There is a fire and all the equipment and trucks are totalled. Insurance company says no problem, we'll write the check. In the meantime, you have no building, no trucks, no equipment. What does anyone in your area now have for fire protection for the next 6 months (at minimum) until you have any of that stuff? And how do you ever face the public and tell them, "hey, get insurance, it's better than fire protection."

:rolleyes:

Like I have said, you also need to consider the intangibles. But if we were to lose it all, we would have an automatic mutual aid system in place.

[HotTrotter]

Jasper ..


Sounds like your department has a plan, but there are many others that do not have the luxury of nearby stations and quite simply, would be in a lot of trouble if they lost a station. The reality is that the firestation is a critical part of the community's infrastructure that needs to be protected.

I am a realist. I understand money is often an issue.

How about a simple solution. How about everytime they rehab a station they include sprinklers in the rehab. After all, in most rehabs the drywall is removed and installing piping would not be a significant issue. I'm suspecting they could probably do a retro-fit at that time for between $3-4 a square foot.

How about when they build a new station, sprinklers are included in the new design. probably $2-3 a square foot.

In time, most if not all of the stations would be covered. It might take 10 years, but with time, it would happen.

I know this will not happen overnight. I know there are competing priorities. But I also believe that protecting the station needs to be a priority.

That brings up an interesting question. How many places have a disaster recovery plan?

[DeputyMarshal]

How about a simple solution. How about everytime they rehab a station they include sprinklers in the rehab. After all, in most rehabs the drywall is removed and installing piping would not be a significant issue. I'm suspecting they could probably do a retro-fit at that time for between $3-4 a square foot.

How about when they build a new station, sprinklers are included in the new design. probably $2-3 a square foot.

FWIW, in most states -- the ones that adopt model fire codes without gutting them by local amendment -- any new or substantially renovated station with a bunkroom would be required to install sprinklers anyway.

IMHO, sprinklers should be a high priority for any existing manned station and a significant priority for every other existing station. The cost isn't insignificant but it's largely a one-time capital expense that can be amortized over the life of the building. Historically we know that sprinkler systems are well worth the investment.

[Bones42]

Side note, sprinklers would be great in every firehouse. Can we start smaller and even fight for some type of monitored alerting system?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Like I have said, you also need to consider the intangibles. But if we were to lose it all, we would have an automatic mutual aid system in place.

This is one of the single-most idiotic posts I have read in my entire time on these boards. It exemplifies perfectly the attitude problem that the fire service has about this issue.

I'll bet your trucks have pretty gold leaf,, though, don't they?

[Bones42]

This is one of the single-most idiotic posts I have read in my entire time on these boards... Honestly, are you surprised?

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Honestly, are you surprised?

Not at all.

[nuthead]

codes are a minimum.
That's my single biggest "bitch" when enforcing codes. Too many people look at the codes as the Holy Grail of fire protection when in reality, by definition in all fire codes I've read, the codes are the MINIMUM acceptable level of fire protection.

And for whoever was asking, NFPA 13 does required sprinklers in attic area of locations where it is applicable. NFPA 13R (residental) doesn't.

[HotTrotter]

Like I have said, you also need to consider the intangibles. But if we were to lose it all, we would have an automatic mutual aid system in place.

This is one of the single-most idiotic posts I have read in my entire time on these boards. It exemplifies perfectly the attitude problem that the fire service has about this issue.

I'll bet your trucks have pretty gold leaf,, though, don't they?

And what is idiotic about that? You do know what intangibles are don't you (do a google on it)? And even if you have sprinklers and alarms can you guarantee me that I still won't lose it all? If you lose it all what do You do? Do you even have a plan?

And you wonder why so few listen too you. :rolleyes:

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

And what is idiotic about that? You do know what intangibles are don't you (do a google on it)? And even if you have sprinklers and alarms can you guarantee me that I still won't lose it all? If you lose it all what do You do? Do you even have a plan?

And you wonder why so few listen too you. :rolleyes:

If one person "listens" to me, it is still 100% more than you have.

It is idiotic to say (in essence); "We don't need an alarm system. If the place burns down, the guys down the road will bail us out".

[Weruj1]

It is with great pride...........and some good thinking that the Rossford Fire & Rescue Department will be installing a fire alarm system in first quarter of 2008. I was gettting tired of reading these headlines and was feearful of the fallout this could cause our community, and department. I am glad it took minimal convincing of the Fire Chief as well, may others follow.;)

[Bones42]

Yea! Congrats! Woo Hoo! 1 more in the club! :D

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

This time in New Jersey.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/12/a_warren_firehouse_damaged_by. html

[Bones42]

From the article George linked....Warren Township Fire Chief Tim McGowan said none of the township's four fire companies -- Washington Valley, Mt. Horeb, Community and Mt. Bethel -- are hooked up to an alarm system that rings at a third-party location.

McGowan did not know if the Washington Valley firehouse had smoke detectors, but the chief for that fire company, Ryan Valentino, said there were none.

McGowan said the firehouses are not required to have alarms. He also said alarm systems are too costly for an all-volunteer department. Each company owns and maintains its own building.


Show of hands. What is more costly.....a new firehouse or ADT for 20 years?

Sorry, but this is pathetic. :mad:

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

From the article George linked....
Show of hands. What is more costly.....a new firehouse or ADT for 20 years?

Sorry, but this is pathetic. :mad:

Very. Penny wise and pound foolish. But get ready for all the "We're Only Volunteers" folks to jump on this bandwagon.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Here is another article:

http://www.dailyrecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071205/UPDATES01/71205006

Here is the best quote I have heard in a long time:

"It is something that we certainly would have never thought would happen -- but as we know, things happen," McGowan said.


"I think most of the people have accepted what's happened," McGowan said. "They're looking to move forward. They're looking forward to cleaning the place up, getting it repaired and getting things back to normal."



Hmmmm. Nothing about an alarm system. Good plan.

[DeputyMarshal]

From the article George linked....
Show of hands. What is more costly.....a new firehouse or ADT for 20 years?

Sorry, but this is pathetic. :mad:

Agreed.

OTOH, New Jersey is an iCode state. Unless they've amended the requirement out of the code, the new firehouse will be required to have sprinklers if it contains any sleeping accomodations whatsoever...

[ChiefKN]

I wonder if that firehouse has a sign out front in October that reminds the residents to change the battery in THEIR detectors.

What kind of message do you send as a fire department when this happens?

Also, in a discussion about glass bay doors in another thread, it was mentioned that we should be vigilant as we are an important piece of infrastructure in the time of disaster and that are also a target. Seems one bad guy with a lighter could wipe out this district's fire protection.

As a side note, those of us that do have fire detection, when was the last time you had it updated? Inspections are important, but get a pro in to review your system and make suggestions. We had an alarm professional (that we trust not to rip us off) come in and he had some updates he suggested to the panel and other small things.

[Bones42]

I am sure that soon, all NJ fire departments will receive a letter in the mail asking for "support" to the Washington Valley FC.

They will get a case of smoke detectors from my Department including instructions on how to install them, how to maintain them, how to test them, and documentation on THE IMPORTANCE OF SMOKE AND FIRE DETECTORS.


DeputyMarshal, not sure how/if the code applies to fixing a building as opposed to building a new one. And I would doubt they have any sleeping areas.

I also think it is a shame that we need a code/requirement/law to force a Fire Department to put in adequate fire protection. :mad:

[Catch22]

From the article George linked....
Show of hands. What is more costly.....a new firehouse or ADT for 20 years?

Sorry, but this is pathetic. :mad:

Does it even have to be ADT or some other alarm system such as that? Granted, I don't know how alarm systems work, but isn't there something somewhat affordable that will alarm at the dispatch center?

I'm trying to figure out the means to do something in our station, but cost is an issue and reliability the other (frequency of false alarms).

[ChiefReason]

Hey, George:
Call me crazy, but I think that we still have some folks out there who believe that FIRES don't happen at FIRE STATIONS!
I mean; look at all the little nutbag firefighter firesetters out there.
Oh wait; if they set the fire station on fire, then they couldn't drive like crazy to the fire station to get their gear and roll with the first truck.
Hah; should have thought of that.
Smoke detectors and sprinklers in fire stations are STILL in the shoulda/coulda/woulda category.
CR

[BLSboy]

Valentino, the 21-year-old chief, said he did not know why the 36-year-old building hadn't been equipped with smoke detectors or alarms.

Anybody else read that?
I'm not cut out to be a Company level officer, let alone a CHIEF!:rolleyes: :confused:

[ChiefReason]

Yeah; I picked up on it right away.
Chief shares a famous last name with one of the all time greatest silent film stars-EVER.
Rudolph Valentino, but I don't know if he was 21 when he started his career!:p
CR

[DianeC]

McGowan said the firehouses are not required to have alarms. "There's nobody in the house to hear the alarms," he said.

That's my favorite quote. :rolleyes: We've (fire service) come so far, yet we have a LONG way to go.

[Bones42]

Catch22, my system is monitored by my local police department. Cost = $0 per year. We pay $118 per year for all the detectors and such to be inspected and tested. We pulled the wire ourselves in the building to keep the costs down. Contractor attached the heads. All in all, I believe the cost was under $1000.

Is that $1000 more expensive than the repairs to the building, the $4000 of lost gear, the aerial being out of service for X amount of time, along with the $ cost of repairing said aerial?

Someone, anyone, can you justify NOT having a system?

"It's too expensive" is NOT a valid excuse. Unless your HotTrotter. :rolleyes:

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Hey, George:
Call me crazy, but I think that we still have some folks out there who believe that FIRES don't happen at FIRE STATIONS!
I mean; look at all the little nutbag firefighter firesetters out there.
Oh wait; if they set the fire station on fire, then they couldn't drive like crazy to the fire station to get their gear and roll with the first truck.
Hah; should have thought of that.
Smoke detectors and sprinklers in fire stations are STILL in the shoulda/coulda/woulda category.
CR

You think?

Although I have done a fire in a firehouse set be a vol. FF. Not a very bright young man.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Catch22, my system is monitored by my local police department. Cost = $0 per year. We pay $118 per year for all the detectors and such to be inspected and tested. We pulled the wire ourselves in the building to keep the costs down. Contractor attached the heads. All in all, I believe the cost was under $1000.

Is that $1000 more expensive than the repairs to the building, the $4000 of lost gear, the aerial being out of service for X amount of time, along with the $ cost of repairing said aerial?

Someone, anyone, can you justify NOT having a system?

"It's too expensive" is NOT a valid excuse. Unless your HotTrotter. :rolleyes:

But how much gold leaf can that $1000 buy? And imagine the TV you could buy for that!

[Catch22]

Catch22, my system is monitored by my local police department. Cost = $0 per year. We pay $118 per year for all the detectors and such to be inspected and tested. We pulled the wire ourselves in the building to keep the costs down. Contractor attached the heads. All in all, I believe the cost was under $1000.

Is that $1000 more expensive than the repairs to the building, the $4000 of lost gear, the aerial being out of service for X amount of time, along with the $ cost of repairing said aerial?

Someone, anyone, can you justify NOT having a system?

"It's too expensive" is NOT a valid excuse. Unless your HotTrotter. :rolleyes:
Can you tell me where you get the detectors or whatever portion of the system contacts the monitoring agency?

That sounds like a very feasible and cost-effective option. Running wire and installation shouldn't be a problem, it's just finding the components.
I had this vision that it was going to cost several thousands of dollars and this being our first year as a tax-based district, money is very tight. But, the board is concerned with such things (which seems to be abnormal these days) and is the exact opposite attitude compared to the city council that used to govern the FD.

Regular smoke detectors aren't going to work as we're volunteer and there's no station manning. In our area, ADT and other outside alarm systems are constantly giving false alarms or not alarming at all, along with other issues. To me, our best option is something that alarms directly to our dispatch center.

I've fought with our council about this for several years, now we've got people in charge that are interested in protecting the investment of the community's dollars.

[Remthedays]

Can you tell me where you get the detectors or whatever portion of the system contacts the monitoring agency?

That sounds like a very feasible and cost-effective option. Running wire and installation shouldn't be a problem, it's just finding the components.
I had this vision that it was going to cost several thousands of dollars and this being our first year as a tax-based district, money is very tight. But, the board is concerned with such things (which seems to be abnormal these days) and is the exact opposite attitude compared to the city council that used to govern the FD.

Regular smoke detectors aren't going to work as we're volunteer and there's no station manning. In our area, ADT and other outside alarm systems are constantly giving false alarms or not alarming at all, along with other issues. To me, our best option is something that alarms directly to our dispatch center.

I've fought with our council about this for several years, now we've got people in charge that are interested in protecting the investment of the community's dollars.

Chief I worked for an alarm company out of Springfield MO. a few years ago and specked/bid systems for businesses in the Branson MO area. I was able to bid alarm systems with instalation well under $1000.00 with monitoring around $200.00/yr. These were combination systems Burglary/Fire..etc.

Any questions PM me.

T.J.

[Bones42]

Catch22, we worked the deal with a local alarm installation company. They supplied the parts, we supplied the labor.

[BLSboy]

Here we go again.
This occured near where I was a FF in Jersey, and I know a few people that are FFs there. :rolleyes:
Video at the website...


http://www.nbc40.net/view_story.php?id=3865

EGG HARBOR TWP.--Fire crews responded to one of their own station houses Thursday night as a fire broke out.

It happened around 11 p.m. at the Bargaintown Volunteer Fire Department. Officials say when fire crews arrived on the scene, the flames were coming out of the roof.

While crews got the fire under control within 30 minutes, the kitchen and attic areas suffered damage.

The cause of the fire remains under investigation.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Does anyone know of this firehouse had smoke detectors or sprinklers?

Deptford Twp NJ Fire Fighters Save Fire House

By BOB BARTOSZ Senior Correspondent

On Dec. 23, 2007, just two days before Christmas Gloucester County NJ 911 Center telephone lines lit up like a Christmas tree for a reported fire at the Oak Valley Fire House in Deptford Twp. NJ. Shortly after 8 p.m. the Wenonah and Woodbury Heights fire departments along with Deptford's stations 9-1 and 9-2 were dispatched to Oak Valley Fire House for a building fire. Callers were reporting heavy fire showing from the front of the fire house. Oak Valley Fire Chief 9101 was on location and reported that he had a working fire. Deptford Chief of the Department Steve Hubbs was also responding and requested a 2nd alarm be struck bringing five more companies from Deptford Twp. and two Fast Team companies from Mantua Twp. and Woodbury Fire Department. Fire fighters were now arriving on location and found heavy fire showing out the windows from the recreation room of the fire station. Members were able to remove the fire apparatus and most of the fire equipment, helmets, coats, SCBA from the smoke filled apparatus room. The Pumper was removed to the fire apron and fire fighters stretched two 1 3/4 inch attack lines and were making an aggressive interior attack to the heavily involved recreation room. Within minutes fire fighters from Wenonah and Woodbury Heights were arriving and quickly went to work helping Oak Valley fire fighters contain the fire to the recreation room. Deptford Ladder Company 926 went to the roof to ventilate but most of the fire was knocked down.
Fire fighters prevented the fire from spreading to the apparatus section but the rest of the fire house received heavy smoke damage.
According to the Deptford Fire Marshal's Office the fire seemed to be caused by an electrical problem. The fire station is still operable according to Fire Chief Steve Hubbs who credited all of the fire fighters for their quick action in saving all of the apparatus and the fire fighting gear and the rest of the building.

[hwoods]

Very. Penny wise and pound foolish. But get ready for all the "We're Only Volunteers" folks to jump on this bandwagon.


That Would be us. We're only Volunteers. We have a big building that houses everything from shiny new Trucks and a big TV to irreplaceable Documents and Records. Some items have a great historic value.

A Central Office monitors our alarm system, which is composed of Smoke Detectors and Manual Pull Stations, with such side items as Waterflow, Fire Pump On, Fire Pump Failure, and Tamper Switches on Valves, Etc. The building has full Sprinkler Protection except some unheated Void spaces which have NO combustible finish or contents (Bare Concrete Block and Concrete Deck, inaccessable for use for any purpose). Auxilary Generator with enough power to run the entire neighborhood, Tested Weekly, Tested with Fire Pump Hookup during annual Fire Pump Tests. Other items include Fire Rated Self Closing Doors throughout, Multiple Exits from Rooms, and Fusible Link Activated Ventilation Hatches over Apparatus Bays. But then, we're only Volunteers..............;)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Here's some interesting info. Guess what the lead banner on this FD's website is?

Change the Batteries in your Smoke Detectors and Carbon Monoxide Monitors

This is from their "History" section:

In 1989, mother nature was not very nice to the members and citizens of Oak Valley. While out answering many calls due to a storm that rolled into South Jersey, the crew from engine 911 were returning for a short break. Chief Dennis Kappler and his crew were informed that the alarm was going off at the firehouse. When they got back there, they found a 60' X 120' section of the roof had been removed by a tornado. The storm came through Pine Acres into Oak Valley. The fire company lost the use of the hall for almost 3 years.


In the early 1990's, an electrical fire broke out in the fire company's rec room, causing a lot of damage and shutting the room down for almost two years while repairs were done.



Honest to God. Hopefully this means they had alarms in the station.

[whfd15901]

Does anyone know of this firehouse had smoke detectors or sprinklers?

The short and only answer is yes

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

The short and only answer is yes

Which?

I have an awful lot of follow up questions.

[whfd15901]

contact me at info@oakvalleyfd.com with your other questions

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

contact me at info@oakvalleyfd.com with your other questions

I'll email you, but I want to let you know that I am only asking for the purposes of promoting the proper protection of firehouses. I am going to post the info you give me on here.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Sure, let the insurance company deal with it. Does anyone know if this place had an alarm system?

Fire Chars Tennessee Fire Station
Posted: 01-24-2008
Updated: 01-24-2008 11:21:44 AM

ANTHONY WELSCH
Courtesy of WBIR-TV

As Paulette Fire Chief Daniel Rice raced back to his station Tuesday morning, he could see smoke and fire billowing out the window from Highway 61.

Inside sat most of the volunteer department's gear, as well as their fire trucks.

"That's the main concern, to get those trucks out, so even if we were to lose the station we'll still have the trucks to be able to provide coverage to the community," Rice said.

It didn't take long for the department to race "home" and put out the fire. Investigators determined faulty wiring sparked the destruction that left most of the inside melted and charred.

With some quick thinking, the department got their trucks out safely, but with no heated place to keep them, the trucks could freeze up.

That's where a little help from Chris Upton and the Sharps Chapel department came in.

Wednesday, they delivered a heater. It seems simple enough, but paired with a power source, it's enough to keep an engine at Paulette's Fire Department.

That should help people in Paulette rest a little easier, knowing that the fire truck is still right where it needs to be.

"We're all in it together, that's what it's all about," Sharps Chapel VFD Chief Chris Upton said. "We're all in the same county, and we all volunteer for the same reasons."

Now as Paulette dusts off and picks up what's left inside their wounded department, they believe insurance will cover the bulk of rebuilding costs.

The other Union County volunteer departments will help cover their 125 square miles of territory.

"I'm just glad there was nobody here at the station when it broke out," Rice said.

[FlyingRon]

Back 20 years ago I was a volunteer at a company that had a fire at their fire station. Fortunately we were there at the time (the station has pretty good coverage). We'd been out on a run for an automatic alarm (nusiance) at the local shopping mall. As we were returning we were noting the large amount of lightning going on and theorized we'd get some more calls as a result.

We got back and long about nine o'clock we got a member who said they smelled smoke upstairs. We had been working on an old 1950's Mac Pumper (reserve engine) in one of the bays and it generated a lot of smoke and chalked it up to that. We did however spend the next hour chewing the fat about how we would handle a fire if the station was on fire.

The same guy came down and said the entire second floor was full of smoke. We took a few steps out from the front of the building and took a look. Yep, she's on fire. Good thing we had been doing the preplan. We all knew what to do next.

The hard part was to convince our dispatch and several other organizations (power company, etc...) that it was the fire station itself that was on fire.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Back 20 years ago I was a volunteer at a company that had a fire at their fire station. Fortunately we were there at the time (the station has pretty good coverage). We'd been out on a run for an automatic alarm (nusiance) at the local shopping mall. As we were returning we were noting the large amount of lightning going on and theorized we'd get some more calls as a result.

We got back and long about nine o'clock we got a member who said they smelled smoke upstairs. We had been working on an old 1950's Mac Pumper (reserve engine) in one of the bays and it generated a lot of smoke and chalked it up to that. We did however spend the next hour chewing the fat about how we would handle a fire if the station was on fire.

The same guy came down and said the entire second floor was full of smoke. We took a few steps out from the front of the building and took a look. Yep, she's on fire. Good thing we had been doing the preplan. We all knew what to do next.

The hard part was to convince our dispatch and several other organizations (power company, etc...) that it was the fire station itself that was on fire.

Why didn't you have smoke alarms? Do you have them now?

[FlyingRon]

Why didn't you have smoke alarms? Do you have them now?

There was a local smoke up there but it hadn't sounded when the first "smell" complaint was made. The second floor was unoccupied at the time (bunk rooms and offices not used much in the early evening, and we were still down stairs after the previous call). The building was built in the 40's and admittedly wasn't in the best shape. After the fire it was pretty much totally redone.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

There was a local smoke up there but it hadn't sounded when the first "smell" complaint was made. The second floor was unoccupied at the time (bunk rooms and offices not used much in the early evening, and we were still down stairs after the previous call). The building was built in the 40's and admittedly wasn't in the best shape. After the fire it was pretty much totally redone.

Does "totally redone" include a fire detection system?

[FlyingRon]

Does "totally redone" include a fire detection system?

Absolutely. Brought the electrical and everything else up to current codes. Couldn't talk them into sprinklering the building though.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Absolutely. Brought the electrical and everything else up to current codes. Couldn't talk them into sprinklering the building though.

Take what you can get. Good job.

[ChiefKN]

Reports that the Holmes Marshall Firehouse in Piscataway, NJ is on fire.

Reported fire through roof with a fourth alarm. Unconfirmed reports that the apparatus were removed with some damage.

Hope it all works out for them. Must be tough to lose your firehouse.

[KyleWickman]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/02/volunteer_fire_companys_buildi .html