Amish and codes

[flathead]

There is a bit of a controversy brewing up in our neck of the woods over the Amish and a local codes officer. Apparently they have built several homes, moved a house and refuse to install smoke detectors.....all with no contact with the local codes officer. They claim, they are separate from the world and their religion separates them from the government codes we "Engish" follow.

Now the Amish have been in the area for quite a few years with only a little flap about the orange triangle being a "decoration" on thier buggies, but that was resolved with some silver reflective tape. Apparently this is a new group, (Scwartzentruber?) and they are more resistive to outside influences. We have a few families who have moved into our district in the past couple of years, but no problems with them that I'm aware of.

For those who have an Amish presence in their communities, how do you handle code enforcement and such? Are they exempt on religious grounds?

[jonnyirons2]

Its called natural selection. If they are dumb enough to have 15 kids and no smoke detectors then who are we to tell them what to do. Oh wait, laws are there to protect those that can not protect themselves.

[FWDbuff]

I know in Pennsylvania (where an extremely large Amish population exists) the Pa. UCC (uniform construction code) which adopts the ICC Code Series with exemptions and deviations, has provisions within Act 45 or 92 (cant remember which) that exempts "members of religious sects" from minimal electrical requirements.......Not sure, though, if SD's are part of this.

That aside, though I would never reccomend to anyone not to have SD's, I bet if you did a study of fires in amish homes, that the occurances are low.......They have been using candles, fireplaces, etc for hundreds of years and probably have virtually no fires. If they dont want Sd's, let them be.....

[stormkid40]

Laws are laws no matter who they affect. If I don't believe in murder, can I get away with it?

[JHR1985]

job security


plus....
off topic....

i'm against mother in laws having smoke detectors.... anyway we can make that into a law?

[RFDACM02]

823112ICC Code Series with exemptions and deviations, has provisions within Act 45 or 92 (cant remember which) that exempts "members of religious sects" from minimal electrical requirements.......
Good thing we have that "seperation of church and state". It kills me that we specifically say we have a clear seperation then we continue to let churches be tax exempt and have code exceptions specific to religous places of worship. I guess the feeling is that whoever your god is will protect you better than the Code? Funny thing, church fires rarely end well. Must be testing the parishoners faith?

[chadf652]

This is little off topic but can someone tell me what this means example- Tanker 5 Do you have traffic?? I know it might be a stupid question haha

[Chazz2771]

This is little off topic but can someone tell me what this means example- Tanker 5 Do you have traffic?? I know it might be a stupid question haha

um, wow.......this on not a little off topic, this one's beyond left field.....are you serious? You're asking this question in someone else's thread about enforcing fire codes for the Amish. Your question has absolutely nothing to do with the thread except that it pertains to firefighting.......oh, and just out of curiosity, have you ever used or talked on a radio before?

[fireman4949]

This is little off topic but can someone tell me what this means example- Tanker 5 Do you have traffic?? I know it might be a stupid question haha


So much for the old saying, "The only stupid question is the one not asked". :rolleyes:

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

Or in his case, "There are no stupid questions.....just the idiots asking them."

[HotTrotter]

Hey not for nothing, but I just had some of the wired smoke detectors installed as part of my repairs from the fire I had. At this time they do not work. They started beeping one night at 4 am, I couldn't get them to stop and I was in no mood to mess with them. So I pulled them down and unplgged them. Seems when I did that I broke them. Can't they make a reliable smoke detector that only goes off when there is really smoke in the house. I can understand why people have smoke detectors that don't work. Or why they don't want them in the first place.

[dday05]

Hey not for nothing, but I just had some of the wired smoke detectors installed as part of my repairs from the fire I had. At this time they do not work. They started beeping one night at 4 am, I couldn't get them to stop and I was in no mood to mess with them. So I pulled them down and unplgged them. Seems when I did that I broke them. Can't they make a reliable smoke detector that only goes off when there is really smoke in the house. I can understand why people have smoke detectors that don't work. Or why they don't want them in the first place.

Most of the hard wired detectors that I've seen have a battery back up in them. I would think if I had a faulty detector I would be getting it repaired or replaced rather quickly.

[Bones42]

Hey not for nothing, but I just had some of the wired smoke detectors installed as part of my repairs from the fire I had. At this time they do not work. They started beeping one night at 4 am, I couldn't get them to stop and I was in no mood to mess with them. So I pulled them down and unplgged them. Seems when I did that I broke them. Can't they make a reliable smoke detector that only goes off when there is really smoke in the house. I can understand why people have smoke detectors that don't work. Or why they don't want them in the first place. You claim to be an intelligent firefighter, and this is the best way you can handle a smoke alarm activation? Are they also CO detectors? Probably was a lack of oxygen in the area. :p

[MalahatTwo7]

You claim to be an intelligent firefighter, and this is the best way you can handle a smoke alarm activation? Are they also CO detectors? Probably was a lack of oxygen in the area. :p

OOUUUCHHH :D

[Rescue101]

Dday,look carefully:The trolls trolling and you've just been had. T.C.

[HotTrotter]

Most of the hard wired detectors that I've seen have a battery back up in them. I would think if I had a faulty detector I would be getting it repaired or replaced rather quickly.

It wasn't really defective, it was picking up a false positive. It was a humid night, we had a fire in the fireplace outside. Windows were open. It was picking up something. At 4am I was just wanting to sleep. So I disconnected them.

[CdnFD24]

It wasn't really defective, it was picking up a false positive. It was a humid night, we had a fire in the fireplace outside. Windows were open. It was picking up something. At 4am I was just wanting to sleep. So I disconnected them.
:confused:

Oh god! :eek:

Put up your umbrella's cause here comes the **** storm.

...You know...I'm not even going to get into this. :cool:

[nmfire]

This is little off topic but can someone tell me what this means example- Tanker 5 Do you have traffic?? I know it might be a stupid question haha

Someone is asking if Tanker 5 has something to say on the radio. Either that or it was on an aviation channel and air traffic control was asking if they could see another airplane. In either case, I'm not sure what it has to do with smoke detectors or HotTrotter being a retard.

[HEYVERN]

I Would Tell The Amish If They Are Exempt From The Codes Good Luck And Call Me If They Have A Fire.




Wait I Forgot, They Don't Have Phones. Good Luck With That!!!

[MCarpenter]

It wasn't really defective, it was picking up a false positive. It was a humid night, we had a fire in the fireplace outside. Windows were open. It was picking up something. At 4am I was just wanting to sleep. So I disconnected them.

So HotTrotter,
You think they were getting a false positive? And you went back to sleep after disconnecting them.

me thnks with the fire in the fire place out side that there might have been something on the inside, Either from the smoke or ETOH.

In Post #2 jonnyirons2 stated "Its called natural selection" I guess that works for firefights also.

And now you can not get them to work.


All I can say is be safe

[Dave1983]

Good thing we have that "seperation of church and state". It kills me that we specifically say we have a clear seperation then we continue to let churches be tax exempt and have code exceptions specific to religous places of worship. I guess the feeling is that whoever your god is will protect you better than the Code? Funny thing, church fires rarely end well. Must be testing the parishoners faith?

No kidding. Or the mention of a god on the currency, or government meetings that open with prayer, or elected officials swearing on bibles. I could go on.

Separation my a**. :rolleyes: :mad:

[KnightnPBIArmor]

Why does every topic on here seem to eventually turn into a bash-fest against religion and people who believe in God? :mad:

[Bones42]

What are you talking about?

[flathead]

I would suspect, at least from watching a couple of their building projects, that there would not be much worry about metal-plate truss construction or glued I-beams.

[chadf652]

Sorry I asked the question

[neiowa]

... I bet if you did a study of fires in amish homes, that the occurances are low.......They have been using candles, fireplaces, etc for hundreds of years and probably have virtually no fires. If they dont want Sd's, let them be.....


Not true in our area. Large Amish community 10mi west of our FD (mutual aid). Jan 06 (-18F). Wood stove caught house on fire. 18kids + parents. Had installed a smoke det, 1st time, a few days before. Everyone got out.

House 80% consumed. New house up in about a week.

There are MANY Amish sects with many varients of rules/regs. Push the battery operated detectors as likely area acceptable.

[HotTrotter]

So HotTrotter,
You think they were getting a false positive? And you went back to sleep after disconnecting them.

me thnks with the fire in the fire place out side that there might have been something on the inside, Either from the smoke or ETOH.

In Post #2 jonnyirons2 stated "Its called natural selection" I guess that works for firefights also.

And now you can not get them to work.


All I can say is be safe

I'm sure there might have been something setting them off. I don't know what it iwas and I couldn't find anything. I suspect the outside smoke rolled in along with the high humidity and stuff. I just wish someone would build a better fire detector system that is affordable. I know that there are a few companies around here that get called out to the same addresses all the time for fire alarm activiations that turn out to be nothing at all. I know a lot of people ar tired of it and often when they hear someone enroute to the call they go back to what they were doing. These oorly designed systems will actually have the effect of slowing the response time.

[snowball]

Why does every topic on here seem to eventually turn into a bash-fest against religion and people who believe in God? :mad:
One only needs to look at the actions of our president to answer that.:rolleyes:

[flathead]

The trial date has been moved back for one month untill July 16. It seems they need an interpreter and don't understand the charges. I understand this was new codes person (9 months or so) who brought up the charges.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in our area because there has been an influx of new families here. Apparently land here is much cheaper than where they are migrating from (Ohio I think). Will this stem the tide or have no effect.

[CaptainGonzo]

It wasn't really defective, it was picking up a false positive. It was a humid night, we had a fire in the fireplace outside. Windows were open. It was picking up something. At 4am I was just wanting to sleep. So I disconnected them.

This from a person who claims to have a "genius IQ"...
:p :rolleyes: :eek:

[doughesson]

Not saying that I know everything about the Amish but as I understand it,they don't have modern conveninces in the home or on their clothing because they feel that God wants them to live plainly and not draw attention to themselves.
They use electricity when working and a lot do have woodworking shops and even car repair shops.They use power tools for working as that does make the job go easier.
If they knew smoke detectors werea safety device and not a frill,I am sure they'd have them in their homes.Those whose collateral duty it is to sell the idea of smoke detectors to the public should contact an Elder and see about showing them the bennies,instead of moping around about how they don't understand the religion.

[MalahatTwo7]

That, Doug, sounds like a reasonable solution to a poorly understood situation. Is that allowed? :) But I think you have the beginnings of a good way to approach solving a social difficulty.

[kady123]

The trials for the Amish are because they built residences without the required building permits. No one is exempt from that requirement. They also refuse to submit the required construction plans and have the required inspections. That code officer has 6 years experience in another state with code enforcement and she has been code officer in that town for 3 years. Up until last year, the Amish community in that area did get permits, submitted plans, and had required inspections. Why has it suddenly popped up now? No idea. Possible because it is a new group that has recently moved there from another state (which required building permits too).

There have been many, many hours of meetings with elders, bishops and individuals on a variety of issues in this area. Each time a solution has been presented that would fulfill the building code requirements and help keep the Amish lifestyle they have refused to accept those various solutions (i.e. variances, master plans, etc.).

The town is not requiring 'fire inspection' of private residences, it is enforcing building code requirements.

Has this kind of situation happened in other communities in regards to Amish refusing to get building permits?

[neiowa]

See my post above. The Amish (or at least some in my area) do have/use Smoke detectors. There appear to be about as many Amish "sects" as there are local communities. Each having/establishing their own rules.

For example local groups.
- can have cell phones but no elec/charger. Rent charger time at a local farmers barn to charge phone.
- Dad can have electricity in the shop for making furniture but mom can't have any electric appliances
- No tractors but can use gas/diesel engines to run converted tractor attachments (such as a hay baler). Which may be pulled by horses.
- Can take the buggy to town for ice cream, beer, and kerosene.

To complicated for me

They do strongly support local FD. Drove our pumper thru the area today to get it serviced. Kids and adults alike (many) waving at the truck. Not so much otherwise.

This Amish community is also paying, out of hide, a rip off price to have some strategically located hydrants installed by the new "Rural Water system" on their new 8 to 12" transmission main. Passing the hat to raise the $.

[JHR1985]

I would say leave them alone and let them do what they do. We need to be more pro-active on having fire stations with smoke detectors than the Amish...:eek:

[FWDbuff]

I would say leave them alone and let them do what they do. We need to be more pro-active on having fire stations with smoke detectors than the Amish...:eek:

Whats wrong with sprinklers in those fire stations?

[VCFD434]

job security


plus....
off topic....

i'm against mother in laws having smoke detectors.... anyway we can make that into a law?

I don't have a mother-in-law yet, but do you think you could look into that and possibly get something started before i do get one?:D

[VaMarine]

I know this is my like 5th post but i figured i could contribute here..

As the Amish is concerned when i lived in Pa we convinced them to use battery operated ones and they did, can't give a story where it saved lives... but can tell you that in the 4 years i was running up there only one house burned and all occupants got out.

On the False Positive on the smoke detectors and they arent working now, make sure you changed the batteries and that all of them are good. On the wired systems if they beep (not actually go off and alert but the steady every 5 10 min beep) normally means either a battery is dying or one of them is faulty.. Because they are all interlinked they all go off and beep like that. Soo find the bad one and replace it.

On Separation of Church and state and the complaints about the government not truly being separate. No where in the Constitution or Case Law has the United States Government ever said there is a separation of church and state. "It has said that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" There has been a misinterpretation of that phrase by the common person for a long while now but its not declaring a true separation, just that the government cannot say this religion will be the religion of the land.. and Create another Church of England type situation.

[LVFD301]

Not saying that I know everything about the Amish but as I understand it,they don't have modern conveninces in the home or on their clothing because they feel that God wants them to live plainly and not draw attention to themselves.
They use electricity when working and a lot do have woodworking shops and even car repair shops.They use power tools for working as that does make the job go easier.
If they knew smoke detectors werea safety device and not a frill,I am sure they'd have them in their homes.Those whose collateral duty it is to sell the idea of smoke detectors to the public should contact an Elder and see about showing them the bennies,instead of moping around about how they don't understand the religion.

I agree - if we have Amish in our community, the better course of
dealing with a smoke detector issue is through education and dealing
with the elders.

While some do use electricty and power tools like you point out, there are
some old order groups that will not use those items. Each community
comes up with its own rules (Its Ordnung) and those rules CAN be changed
through a proposal process. Although previous rules are seldom changed or
ended, new rules can be made that amend those.

And if you ask your local Amish community for help with the fire
department, you need to be ready! They are great for helping out. They
don't want to be indebted or to need you, but they will help you out at the
drop of a hat.