100' sections of 3"

[firersq615]

Anybody here use or have expirence with 100' sections of 3" supply hose. We have found a company that couples it in 100' lengths and is good bit cheaper than 50' sections

[len1582]

Why would you not want 4" or 5" ?

[LtDPSJFD]

One downside I see would be if you intend to roll it on the scene to take back to the station to clean, dry then reload. A 100' roll is going to be a little unwieldy when it's rolled up and wet.

[firersq615]

We are still in the dark ages using 3" for all our supply hose

[FyredUp]

Nitrile rubber or double jacket? If it is double jacket forget it. It is too damn heavt when it is wet to roll and carry, let alone dry. If it is rubber and you will be reloading it instead of rolling it, then my answer is yes do it. Out 3 inch hose is all nitrile rubber in 100 foot sections and it works out just fine. And yes it is cheaper that way.

FyredUp

[Fire1839]

We are still in the dark ages using 3" for all our supply hose

I wouldn't go that far....If your coverage area is anything at all like my stations...We have 4 engines with beds full of 3 inch and only 1 engine w/ 5 inch which is a new engine bought about 2 years ago..4 of the engines have 1000 gal tanks...Our coverage area is basically all 1 story ranch housing...our saying around the firehouse is if you can't knock down the fire in a 1 story ranch with 1000 gallons its not really gonna matter if you have a 3 inch or 5 inch supply...however 3 out of the five engines are being replace and will be purchased w/ 5 inch house...but i believe 3 inch is not obsolete in the least bit....

[R1SAlum]

A 100' section of 3" works great as ladder pipe hose; no couplings to get caught-up when extending the aerial.

[HotTrotter]

We have 100' sections of 4 inch hose. It is the rubber variety with storz fittings. I always have trouble figuring out which one is the male and which is the female end...:D :D It is very easy to work with and handle.

[HEYVERN]

We use nitril rubber jacketed 3" for our preconnected Blitz fire lines. 400' preconnected. Our engines carry 1700' of 5" supply.

[hwoods]

A 100' section of 3" works great as ladder pipe hose; no couplings to get caught-up when extending the aerial.


Thanks, Bro. That's where I was going as well. '615 - Ladder pipe line is the Only use for 100 ft. sections in hose that is over 1.5 inch, until you get to LDH. We don't use LDH at all (only a few of our almost 90 Engines in this County carry it, One station (25) has all 5 inch and operates as the Water Supply Company) Some stations use Forestry Hose in 1 and/or 1.5 dia that is coupled in 100 ft lengths, as does the State Forestry units. If I were going to get a 100 ft section for a Ladder Pipe, I think I'd use Single Jacket Dacron in 3.5 dia to ensure adequate water at an increased elevation.:)

[dday05]

We are still in the dark ages using 3" for all our supply hose

Sorry to hear that. Can you talk anyone into getting some LDH hose? Maybe a good training session on it could change some minds.

[hwoods]

Sorry to hear that. Can you talk anyone into getting some LDH hose? Maybe a good training session on it could change some minds.

We tried it, didn't like it, went back to 3" for supply line.

[Geinandputitout]

I like the 100' sections. I've used both 50' and 100'. We've had two issues. The first was that the 100' sections can be a bear to work with, particularly the woven jacket stuff. This was addressed by switching to the Angus Hose. I know people complain about it, but it's indestructible and can be reloaded without drying.

The other issue becomes apparent when drivers are used to spotting the truck for 50' sections, and then they have 50' extra hose lying around in a pile between the truck and the hydrant. The have to become more creative with their "esses"

[dday05]

We tried it, didn't like it, went back to 3" for supply line.

Atleast you tried it. If your happy then I'm happy. Goes back to some stuff works better for some depts and some things don't.

[HotTrotter]

I like the 100' sections. I've used both 50' and 100'. We've had two issues. The first was that the 100' sections can be a bear to work with, particularly the woven jacket stuff. This was addressed by switching to the Angus Hose. I know people complain about it, but it's indestructible and can be reloaded without drying.

The other issue becomes apparent when drivers are used to spotting the truck for 50' sections, and then they have 50' extra hose lying around in a pile between the truck and the hydrant. The have to become more creative with their "esses"

We actually have 950 feet on all of our trucks. The last link is 50 feet long, all others are 100 foot. That way we can hook truck to truck with 50 foot lengths or longer if need be. Works really well for us.

[ehs7554]

There is nothing wrong with 3" supply line. In fact some of our rigs only carry 3". This is not a dark ages technique. It's called using your head! Why drop 500 ft of 5" for a room and contents when you can easily get it done with tank water and maybe 500 ft of 3". Faster pick up!

[truckmonkey42]

We use 5" supply line, but also have 800' of 3" that we can use for a dual lay for extra water along with the 5". Our main use of the 3" though is for stretching it to a gated wye and then taking (2) 2" lines off the wye for apartment fires. We load 700' of the 3" as 100' sticks and the last 100' is 50' sticks.

[alpha4]

Anybody here use or have expirence with 100' sections of 3" supply hose. We have found a company that couples it in 100' lengths and is good bit cheaper than 50' sections

what ever rocks their boat

[FyredUp]

There is nothing wrong with 3" supply line. In fact some of our rigs only carry 3". This is not a dark ages technique. It's called using your head! Why drop 500 ft of 5" for a room and contents when you can easily get it done with tank water and maybe 500 ft of 3". Faster pick up!

Look if yiou like laying a single 3 inch 500 feet that's great. But you are limiting the amount of water you will get. Both FD's I am on lay 5 inch for supply and it doesn't matter if it is a room and contents fire or an industrial fire we always lay for max flow capabilities. Suppose your single lay of 3 inch is overwhelmed because the fire was more than originally detected? Then what? Hand stretch for more water or wait for the next engine to lay in yet another single 3 inch?

Sorry to sound harsh but it sounds to me like your biggest justification for laying the 3 inch over the 5 inch is it easier pick up. How much harder is the 5 inch to load? We turn the rig around and straddle the hose and drive over it with 3 guys loading, 2 in the bed and one on the ground.

I guess like someone else said whatever rocks your boat.

FyredUp

[ehs7554]

If we need more we usually have a second pumper on another plug. Just bring it in. My first dept only had 5" and my current job usues both. It was strange to me at first to see 3" line, but now it all makes sense. Yes it is an easier pick up, but really, a good plug even with one 3" line is almost always just as effective. A 3" lay provides enough water for 2 or 3 lines and with a bad plug gives you less of a chance of cavitation that you see with 5".

[FyredUp]

If we need more we usually have a second pumper on another plug. Just bring it in. My first dept only had 5" and my current job usues both. It was strange to me at first to see 3" line, but now it all makes sense. Yes it is an easier pick up, but really, a good plug even with one 3" line is almost always just as effective. A 3" lay provides enough water for 2 or 3 lines and with a bad plug gives you less of a chance of cavitation that you see with 5".

No way can a single unpumped 3 inch line ever come close to matching a 5 inch line. Never, no way, simply can't happen.

I don;t know what you are using for handlines but my FD uses 2 inch lines with a normal flow rate of 200 gpm. Let's say 2 lines in service and a hydrant with 60 psi static flow. Now I know these are just formulas and you hose may be better or worse but here goes.

3 inch hose has a coeficient of .8 and my flow would be 400 gpm with 2 handlines so the single 500 foot 3 inch line needs to supply 400 gpm with 60 psi.

,8 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 64 psi FL...oops out of pressure so we can't flow 400 psi

so we need at least an 84 psi hydrant to have 20 psi incoming, or 74 if that is your FD's sog.

5 inch hose has a coeficient of .08

.08 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 6.4 psi FL....

Let's say you need 1000 gpm

3 inch hose .8 x 10 x 10 x 5 = 400 psi

5 inch hose .08 x 10 x 10 x 5 = 40 psi

What's my point? If the hydrant is capable of it you could easily increase your flow to in excess of 1000 gpm without having to lay any other lines. Kust pick up the single 5 inch.

How do you cavitate a pump with 5 inch hose over 3 inch hose? Neither 3 inch nor 5 inch hose manufacture water. All they do is transport it with their own specific friction losses. IF the pump operator watches the intake gauge and has the stones to tell the IC I don't have any more water to give you and maintains either 10 or 20 psi on the intake gauge he will NOT cavitate the pump regardless of the intake hose size.

5 inch hose has a few advantages that people fail to recognze some times.

1) It makes a weak hydrant capable of giving you every drop of water it has farther away.

2) 5 inch hose will allow you to pump 30 gpm to a booster line if you want to or perhaps up to 2000 gpm if the hydrant and hose lay allow it to happen.

3) No matter what the flow, 5 inch will move it farther with less pump pressure than any other smaller hose size.

Again if it works for you great. I guess I just prefer the ability to supply more water without relying on someone else to bring it to me.

FyredUp

[ehs7554]

We haven't burned down our city yet. We primarily use 1 3/4 lines.

[HotTrotter]

...
,8 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 64 psi FL...oops out of pressure so we can't flow 400 psi...


Just curious, but isn't that GPM?

Also, doesn't 4" hose supply twice the GPM of a 3" hose at the same pressure?

[FyredUp]

Trotter,

Oh my God!! You caught an errant typing of PSI when I meant to type GPM. Good for you.

Yes it should have said:

.8 x 4 x 4 x 5 = 64 psi FL...oops out of pressure so we can't flow 400GPM

Have a nice day!

FyredUp

[neiowa]

There is nothing wrong with 3" supply line. In fact some of our rigs only carry 3". This is not a dark ages technique. It's called using your head! Why drop 500 ft of 5" for a room and contents when you can easily get it done with tank water and maybe 500 ft of 3". Faster pick up!

And a 500gpm pump will handle most fires, who needs that 1000/1250/1500!

You fill up the hosebed with 3" rather than additional 5" then what are you going to do when you have "the big one" need the 5"? Go back to the station and repack the hosebed with all 5"?

[ehs7554]

Only a few rigs carry only 3". If bigger is needed we have 18 other companies.

[HotTrotter]

Trotter,

Oh my God!! You caught an errant typing of PSI when I meant to type GPM. Good for you.

Yes it should have said:



Have a nice day!

FyredUp

See that, I do read and pay attention. But what about the 3" vs 4" flow question?

As for who needs more than 500 GPM. Well the ISO wants to see more. I beleive they want to see 1000 or 1500.

[FyredUp]

Trotter,

It is easy to prove.

3 inch coefficient .8

4 inch coerffcient .2

5 inch coefficient .08

2 1/2 inch hose: 2 x 1.6 x 1.6 x 1 = 5.12 psi FL / 160 gpm

3 inch hose: .8 x 2.5 x 2.5 x 1 = 5 psi FL / 250 gpm

4 inch hose: .2 x 5 x 5 x 1 = 5 psi FL / 500 gpm

5 inch hose: .08 x 8 x 8 x 1 = 5 psi FL / 800 gpm


Five 2 1/2 inch lines to equal one 5 inch line

Three plus 3 inch lines to equal one 5 inch line

one and a half plus 4 inch lines to equal one 5 inch line

There ya go.

FyredUp

[HotTrotter]

Trotter,

It is easy to prove.

3 inch coefficient .8

4 inch coerffcient .2

5 inch coefficient .08

2 1/2 inch hose: 2 x 1.6 x 1.6 x 1 = 5.12 psi FL / 160 gpm

3 inch hose: .8 x 2.5 x 2.5 x 1 = 5 psi FL / 250 gpm

4 inch hose: .2 x 5 x 5 x 1 = 5 psi FL / 500 gpm

5 inch hose: .08 x 8 x 8 x 1 = 5 psi FL / 800 gpm


Five 2 1/2 inch lines to equal one 5 inch line

Three plus 3 inch lines to equal one 5 inch line

one and a half plus 4 inch lines to equal one 5 inch line

There ya go.

FyredUp


Thanks good buddy. I couldn't find the coefficent stuff becuase I filed it away somewhere so I wouldn't lose it. :o But I did remember the important part, I get twice as much water out of 3" as I do 4"

[FyredUp]

1 1/2 = 24
1 3/4 = 15.5
2 = 8
2 1/2 = 2
3 = .8
4 = .2
5 = .08

Remember these are mathematical formulas for estimation. Your results may vary depending on hose construction and materials used.

The minimum size fire pump ISO recognizes on a Class A pumper is 1000 gpm.

FyredUp

[HotTrotter]

1 1/2 = 24
1 3/4 = 15.5
2 = 8
2 1/2 = 2
3 = .8
4 = .2
5 = .08

Remember these are mathematical formulas for estimation. Your results may vary depending on hose construction and materials used.

The minimum size fire pump ISO recognizes on a Class A pumper is 1000 gpm.

FyredUp


Hey.. I think Class A is no more. I can't find a definition of it anywhere. I looked a while back and had no luck. Can you tell me where to find the info?

As for the hoses. I remember that our 4 inch hose takes about a gallon per foot to fill and we can get a lot of water through it. I also know that when you charge the LDH you do it a low pressure.

[FyredUp]

Hey.. I think Class A is no more. I can't find a definition of it anywhere. I looked a while back and had no luck. Can you tell me where to find the info?

As for the hoses. I remember that our 4 inch hose takes about a gallon per foot to fill and we can get a lot of water through it. I also know that when you charge the LDH you do it a low pressure.

Class A and Class B are older terms used when a pumper was originally rated at 120 psi for maximum flow. A Class A pumper was rated at 150 psi and a Class B was rated at 120 psi. I am not even sure you could buy a class be pump any more or why anyone would want to.

FyredUp

[BuzzCut1]

What are these Hydrants that you speak of? :rolleyes:

We only carry 3" as it's only going to be dropped at the driveway entrance for a second engine or a water tender to hook up to and supply the 1st in with water...

Most of the homes up here barely have room for more than one engine to get up the drive.

we only have 2 options for water aside from what we carry, second in/water tender or draft off the home owners 1-2k gallon water tank....yes we are in the middle of nowhere with no muni water systems

[FFFRED]

We have 3 1/2" hose(50ft sections) for In-Line pumping and 10ft Hard Suction and a 10ft soft connection.

As well as 35 ft of 5inch in the front if one desires.

This city is still standing. For most depts 5 inch as a primary supply line is overkill, but knock yourself out if thats what you want.

What hose do you supply your street pipe, akron New Yorker, stang...etc whatever you call it if you only have 5 inch? 2 1/2"?

Around here if an Engine needs more water and can't supply with the hydrant they are hooked up to...the line either comes from another Engine at another hydrant...or that original Engine is augmented by another Engine pumping to them into another gated inlet.

FTM-PTB

[DennisTheMenace]

We have 3 1/2" hose(50ft sections) for In-Line pumping and 10ft Hard Suction and a 10ft soft connection.

As well as 35 ft of 5inch in the front if one desires.

This city is still standing. For most depts 5 inch as a primary supply line is overkill, but knock yourself out if thats what you want.

What hose do you supply your street pipe, akron New Yorker, stang...etc whatever you call it if you only have 5 inch? 2 1/2"?

Around here if an Engine needs more water and can't supply with the hydrant they are hooked up to...the line either comes from another Engine at another hydrant...or that original Engine is augmented by another Engine pumping to them into another gated inlet.

FTM-PTB
I am sure it has been brought up before, but why do you all still carry hard suction? I would figure that it would not be used much at all, and the funds and the space could be better used? Do you all ever draft?

While we have 500feet of 3 1/2 inch for the monitor, we also have adaptors and gated-Y's for the LDH to flow to the monitor, with the option of running an additional handline. We can flow a lot of water and have flexablity, works for us..... but all of our remaining hard sleeve is at the academy and logistics. They will bring it out to the scene if for some wierd reason we ever need it. But other wise I can't thing of a single structure that we have that is not within 500-600 feet of a hydrant.

[nyckftbl]

I am sure it has been brought up before, but why do you all still carry hard suction? I would figure that it would not be used much at all, and the funds and the space could be better used? Do you all ever draft?

While we have 500feet of 3 1/2 inch for the monitor, we also have adaptors and gated-Y's for the LDH to flow to the monitor, with the option of running an additional handline. We can flow a lot of water and have flexablity, works for us..... but all of our remaining hard sleeve is at the academy and logistics. They will bring it out to the scene if for some wierd reason we ever need it. But other wise I can't thing of a single structure that we have that is not within 500-600 feet of a hydrant.

The WTC was within 500 feet of a hydrant too. Engines drafted that day, as well as stretching thousands of feet of hose to the Marine units after the water supply took a dump. In addition to the very real possibility of our water supply being altered (either directly (intentionally) or indirectly (unintentionally)), there are companies that do draft on very rare occasions, and my company drills on it with a Marine company a few times a year, being so close to a rail yard and the Harlem River. Also, in our books, any 2nd alarm or greater, the engines are supposed to hook up using the hard suction. Why wait to have it delivered when you can design the rigs to carry the option, without taking up usable space?

[DennisTheMenace]

The WTC was within 500 feet of a hydrant too. Engines drafted that day, as well as stretching thousands of feet of hose to the Marine units after the water supply took a dump. In addition to the very real possibility of our water supply being altered (either directly (intentionally) or indirectly (unintentionally)), there are companies that do draft on very rare occasions, and my company drills on it with a Marine company a few times a year, being so close to a rail yard and the Harlem River. Also, in our books, any 2nd alarm or greater, the engines are supposed to hook up using the hard suction. Why wait to have it delivered when you can design the rigs to carry the option, without taking up usable space?
I totally see having it availble, just can't see the need for it on every rig in an urban department. I can think of a bunch of items that would be convienient to always have, but for reasons of rare need and additional costs are not really justified on every rig.

I did not realize that you hooked the hard suction up on the 2nd alarms and higher. Do you have problems with the water system much, either caused by suction from the engine, or where you need to have a little suction to draw from the system?

[FyredUp]

We have 3 1/2" hose(50ft sections) for In-Line pumping and 10ft Hard Suction and a 10ft soft connection.

As well as 35 ft of 5inch in the front if one desires.

This city is still standing. For most depts 5 inch as a primary supply line is overkill, but knock yourself out if thats what you want.

No it isn't FFFred, not when you can't rely on a second, third, fourth, fifth or 210th engine like the FDNY can. My volly FD has 2 engines and during the day sometimes that second engine is better than 5 minutes after the first engine from leaving the station. If we see smoke or the call is fire or smoke reported by the homeowner we are laying in 5 inch to maximize the engine in place.

This is one of those cases where a good chunk of the country isn't doing what the FDNY does and it works for us. Gosh Fred isn't that what you have always told us? Don't do what you do, do what works for us.:D

What hose do you supply your street pipe, akron New Yorker, stang...etc whatever you call it if you only have 5 inch? 2 1/2"?

We have 2 dead lay beds of 3 inch hose for supplying ground monitors or spronkler connections. Works well for us. We don't carry any 2 1/2 at all.

Around here if an Engine needs more water and can't supply with the hydrant they are hooked up to...the line either comes from another Engine at another hydrant...or that original Engine is augmented by another Engine pumping to them into another gated inlet.

Once again, when you can't count on that second engine arriving in a timely manner we do what we do and it works for us. We have never run out of water at a fire yet laying a 5 inch line in.

FTM-PTB

We do what we do because it works. You should do what you do because it works for you.

FyredUp

[nyckftbl]

I totally see having it availble, just can't see the need for it on every rig in an urban department. I can think of a bunch of items that would be convienient to always have, but for reasons of rare need and additional costs are not really justified on every rig.

I did not realize that you hooked the hard suction up on the 2nd alarms and higher. Do you have problems with the water system much, either caused by suction from the engine, or where you need to have a little suction to draw from the system?


Cost? It costs basically nothing to mount on the rig, just a couple of clamps. Every company must have the hard suction, so why not have it mounted on the rig? Rigs get relocated to different areas all the time. Because it is rarely used is a pisspoor excuse to not have tools available that may be used. We very rarely use our deck gun, and it costs far more money to have that installed and mounted on the rig.

It is not taking up usable space, considering we already mount our soft connection right below it, on the same side of the rig. There isnt a single thing I can think of that I would want on my rig, that we would need to take the hard suction off to create room for.

[DennisTheMenace]

Cost? It costs basically nothing to mount on the rig, just a couple of clamps. Every company must have the hard suction, so why not have it mounted on the rig? Rigs get relocated to different areas all the time. Because it is rarely used is a pisspoor excuse to not have tools available that may be used. We very rarely use our deck gun, and it costs far more money to have that installed and mounted on the rig.

It is not taking up usable space, considering we already mount our soft connection right below it, on the same side of the rig. There isnt a single thing I can think of that I would want on my rig, that we would need to take the hard suction off to create room for.Well you all rarely use you Sat Units, but you don't roll them to every fire....was not suggesting that you don't need the tools available, but at the same time, they don't all need to be available immediately either. Like I stated I was not sure why you all carry the hard suction on every engine, but if you hook it up for every 2nd alarm that would be a good reason. If it was for the once in a half century that you would need to draft, than I would not see the need. I am pretty sure that Arlington County drafted on 9/11 at the Pentagon as a secondary water source, not sure if the Pentagon or WTC was closer to water. Arlington however no longer carry's hard sleeve since it would be a real catastrophy when they would be needed and could be brought to the scene from the academy or logistics. Since you use them at 2nd alarms than that is not a real option.

[neiowa]

As for who needs more than 500 GPM. Well the ISO wants to see more. I beleive they want to see 1000 or 1500.

Sarcasm guy. 500gal front mount, 2 1/2" or 3" hose lay would be the "way we've always done it".

Plan pump size to meet ISO standards but also LDH and tanker shuttle (3" and 1500gal tankers don't get it 'er done).

Our monitor ground mount supply is 5" Storz (carry 250ft). LDH is 6".

[FFFRED]

We do what we do because it works. You should do what you do because it works for you.

FyredUp

I saw a few guys more or less attacking the use of anything less than 4" or 5". My former depts used the preceding sizes...the 4 inch was just a wee bit too big for what we really needed and the 5 inch was just way too much for the flows we needed but that was bought based more on someone getting a good sales pitch than really doing the math and strategic planning.

I never said you shouldn't use 5 inch if it works for you...just making the point that 3 or 3 1/2 can work just fine in an urban environment. And I know of a few "urban" depts that use less than 4 inch and they don't have 204 Engines like we do either.

FTM-PTB

[FFFRED]

I totally see having it availble, just can't see the need for it on every rig in an urban department. I can think of a bunch of items that would be convienient to always have, but for reasons of rare need and additional costs are not really justified on every rig.

I did not realize that you hooked the hard suction up on the 2nd alarms and higher. Do you have problems with the water system much, either caused by suction from the engine, or where you need to have a little suction to draw from the system?

Every rig is more or less standard for the most part.

Having Engines lets say in Manhattan, Western and Southern Brooklyn and Queens and a handful of Bronx Companies with Hard suction...and the remainder without...causes an entire host of planning, repair, storage, design, training, operational issues...etc.

As for water problems...they occur when you least expect them. It could be the summer during a drought and heatwave and a watermain broke on West 188th...and to further complicate issues every 3rd hydrant has been illegally turned on without a spray cap from there down to 110th and up and through the South Bronx....etc. And then a warehouse in Mott Haven or Hunts point catches fire...then we have a problem.

It could be in the dead of winter at a warehouse job and numerous hydrants are frozen....that obviously is a problem.

Or worst case senario...one of the water tunnels collapses.

We hook up at 2nd alarms and greater to prevent the potential for the supply hoses from collapsing during high water usage at multiple alarms.

Our Engine companies are expected to obtain water and pump it through LCS or handlines under all conditions. We have over 560 miles of waterfront to protect and access to. I can't see how anyone could argue against all Engine companies having hard suction capabilties.

There is no task more important than establishing a positive water supply for an Engine company.

FTM-PTB

[FFFRED]

Well you all rarely use you Sat Units, but you don't roll them to every fire....was not suggesting that you don't need the tools available, but at the same time, they don't all need to be available immediately either. Like I stated I was not sure why you all carry the hard suction on every engine, but if you hook it up for every 2nd alarm that would be a good reason. If it was for the once in a half century that you would need to draft, than I would not see the need. I am pretty sure that Arlington County drafted on 9/11 at the Pentagon as a secondary water source, not sure if the Pentagon or WTC was closer to water. Arlington however no longer carry's hard sleeve since it would be a real catastrophy when they would be needed and could be brought to the scene from the academy or logistics. Since you use them at 2nd alarms than that is not a real option.

You are comparing a special apparatus that is used for special and specific operations to a basic Engine company evolution...obtaining a water supply.

There is nothing unusual about drafting or establishing a positive water supply as an Engine Company when no other options are available.

Why would you want to wait for hard suction during a fire or emergency? I guess when all other options fail...Arlington Co. Engine chauffeurs can just shrug their shoulders and exclaim..."we're all F*@%ed!"

I can't imagine what other equipment or tools are needed to take the place of the hard suction hose. What other tools or equipment were you alluding too?

I can't think of a situation where I thought to myself...d@mn I wish we carried tool X in lieu of that pesky hardsuction!

FTM-PTB

[FyredUp]

I saw a few guys more or less attacking the use of anything less than 4" or 5". My former depts used the preceding sizes...the 4 inch was just a wee bit too big for what we really needed and the 5 inch was just way too much for the flows we needed but that was bought based more on someone getting a good sales pitch than really doing the math and strategic planning.

I never said you shouldn't use 5 inch if it works for you...just making the point that 3 or 3 1/2 can work just fine in an urban environment. And I know of a few "urban" depts that use less than 4 inch and they don't have 204 Engines like we do either.

FTM-PTB

FFFred,

If using a smaller size hose works for another department that is absolutely cool with me.

But tactically we operate differently than the way most FD's do with smaller hose.

1) The FDNY reverse lays so the engine is at the hydrant pushes water through the hose. We forward lay and do not support the hydrant with a second engine.

2) You count on a multitude of engines coming to a fire and arriving in a timely manner. We have 2 engines and on certain days the second engine is not responding quickly or at all and mutual aid is at least 10 minutes out. Yes, we are working to solve this problem by establishing automatic aid with one of our neighboring FDs.

3) You feed ground monitors with 3 1/2 inch. We use 3 inch and in fact carry a monitor preconnected on one of our engines to a 200 foot section of 3 inch hose. One person can easily advance that.

By the way FFFred one of the fire publications says this big order of new engines you guys are getting will have 2000gpm pumps and 5 inch hose. How will that affect FDNY ops?

FyredUp

[Dalmatian190]

No way can a single unpumped 3 inch line ever come close to matching a 5 inch line. Never, no way, simply can't happen.

From the Department of Sarcastic Physics...

Fire a few hundred feet away from a low flow hydrant with modest pressure. Doesn't make a difference since you'll get full supply at greater then 20psi residual regardless of line ;)

3" like 4" hose works well generally in areas with modest hydrant pressures, flows, and spacing. Your choice if you prefer to drop 2 3" lines or a single 4", and there's legitimate arguments to be made over the 3" option (able to lay a single, longer line; failure of primary line; easier to drive over). Of course, there's also good reasons for the 4" -- possibly less hose to buy (600' of 4" = 1,200' of 3" hydraulically), maintain, re-pack, etc.

Areas that routinely pump their hydrants -- NYC which often has 100' to 200' reverse lays to a hydrant by the attack piece, or PG's religous use of hydrant assist valves -- can affect the equation by increasing what is considered a "modest" flow, spacing, etc.

When you routinely have long lays, target hazards with long lays, high flow hydrants, low pressure hydrants, and many other conditions that probably exist in the majority of communities, 5" ends up making the most sense for being able to maximize your water supply with the given resources.

The majority of our LDH is 5" in 200' lengths to minimize space lost to couplings. Our water supply engine nominally carries 5,000' of it.

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On the booster hose argument...

I'll postulate it's more important in urban areas to carry it on first due engines then rural areas.

A fire in an urban area, almost by definition, has the potential to create a conflagaration spreading across streets as it extends building to building.

In rural areas, it would take wildland fires to do that -- 99% of our buildings on 99% of the days could burn to the ground without extending outside the original property even if no one showed up. The potential and what's at risk is much greater in a city.

While improvements in water supply, fire engines, water towers, building codes, planning, and zoning have all helped reduce the frequency of conflagarations...water supply is probably the most important of those -- and a loss of that while having pumpers unable to draft from a static source they're staring at would be a very bad thing.

[FFFRED]

By the way FFFred one of the fire publications says this big order of new engines you guys are getting will have 2000gpm pumps and 5 inch hose. How will that affect FDNY ops?

FyredUp

The 2000 gpm thing is true. Still not sure why. We don't have a problem of Engines not being able to support enough handlines. Might have to do with below...

We already have 5 inch hose on our Satellite units. I've heard that the 5 inch will be on hose wagons placed in different firehouses and are for the doomsday senario where one of our water tunnels collapse.

Essentially unless the end of the world occurs...we will not be seeing the 5 inch except on drills.

FTM-PTB

[HotTrotter]

It's just as easy to pick up 1000 feet of 4 inch hose as it is 3 inch. Yet I have twice the as much water, if I need it. Not for nothing, but I would rather have too much water than not enough. And if I have to lay a second 3 inch hose now I have to do twice the work.

[nyckftbl]

The 2000 gpm thing is true. Still not sure why. We don't have a problem of Engines not being able to support enough handlines. Might have to do with below...

We already have 5 inch hose on our Satellite units. I've heard that the 5 inch will be on hose wagons placed in different firehouses and are for the doomsday senario where one of our water tunnels collapse.

Essentially unless the end of the world occurs...we will not be seeing the 5 inch except on drills.

FTM-PTB

I think the 2000 gpm engines are basically for the doomsday scenario. From what I understand (maybe JFTL41 can pop his head in here), the cost isnt all that much greater for the 2000 gpm engines.

[ehs7554]

3" Rules! Do what you need to do. Very few of our fires have over 500 ft lay and it is easier to repack 3". We have good hydrants everywhere and we still save property not just foundations as many of you 5" guys are good at. You NFPA'er 2 in 2 out guys....Safety Sallly's ....Have fun!

[DennisTheMenace]

Every rig is more or less standard for the most part. Having Engines lets say in Manhattan, Western and Southern Brooklyn and Queens and a handful of Bronx Companies with Hard suction...and the remainder without...causes an entire host of planning, repair, storage, design, training, operational issues...etc.

As for water problems...they occur when you least expect them. It could be the summer during a drought and heatwave and a watermain broke on West 188th...and to further complicate issues every 3rd hydrant has been illegally turned on without a spray cap from there down to 110th and up and through the South Bronx....etc. And then a warehouse in Mott Haven or Hunts point catches fire...then we have a problem.

It could be in the dead of winter at a warehouse job and numerous hydrants are frozen....that obviously is a problem.

Or worst case senario...one of the water tunnels collapses.

We hook up at 2nd alarms and greater to prevent the potential for the supply hoses from collapsing during high water usage at multiple alarms.

Our Engine companies are expected to obtain water and pump it through LCS or handlines under all conditions. We have over 560 miles of waterfront to protect and access to. I can't see how anyone could argue against all Engine companies having hard suction capabilties.

There is no task more important than establishing a positive water supply for an Engine company.

FTM-PTBSee the standardization for you all makes the most sense to me. But do the tools, hoses, and appliances stay with the company or the rig?

Due to Reagan National Airport and the George Washington Parkway, there are no buildings in Arlington actually on the Potomac except for the Pentagon which is on one of the branchs. So unless setting up a serious temp water main with relays that would cross a major evacuation route or airfield, there is really no drafting to be done. The water system is also probably 50+ years newer than NYC's so the hydrants are dependable to provide good flow. The engines have compartment space on the port side like the old FDNY Macks, with the very well used ladders on the starboard side. Do you all carry ladders on the Engines any more? Or just on the Trucks?

[FFFRED]

See the standardization for you all makes the most sense to me. But do the tools, hoses, and appliances stay with the company or the rig?

Due to Reagan National Airport and the George Washington Parkway, there are no buildings in Arlington actually on the Potomac except for the Pentagon which is on one of the branchs. So unless setting up a serious temp water main with relays that would cross a major evacuation route or airfield, there is really no drafting to be done. The water system is also probably 50+ years newer than NYC's so the hydrants are dependable to provide good flow. The engines have compartment space on the port side like the old FDNY Macks, with the very well used ladders on the starboard side. Do you all carry ladders on the Engines any more? Or just on the Trucks?

Everything stays with the company.

We carry a 24ft extension...that gets used during drill. (we tried years ago to get rid of them..but my understanding is that legal wouldn't allow it.)

FTM-PTB

[FyredUp]

3" Rules! Do what you need to do. Very few of our fires have over 500 ft lay and it is easier to repack 3". We have good hydrants everywhere and we still save property not just foundations as many of you 5" guys are good at. You NFPA'er 2 in 2 out guys....Safety Sallly's ....Have fun!

Fine this is how you want this topic to go? Let's take it all the way down then. I find it amazing how you guys with your little hose have to defend your having a little hose by attacking the guys with the big hose.

Your comments are some of the most ignorant, non-fact based, bunch of tripe I have ever seen posted here. If all you can handle is 3 inch and reloading 4 or 5 inch is too much for you boys to handle then lay out 3 inch, hell, lay out doubles and triples if you want. While you're rolling and loading 1500 feet of 3 inch my guys will have picked up their 500 feet of 5 inch, laughed at you and headed back to rest in the recliners at the station.

Nice job staying on topic and even staying close to factual. Like it or not the facts of being able to flow 3 times what your one 3 inch will do and not having to pick up multiple lines makes 5 inch in OUR case a better idea. We do what we do because it works for us. Frankly, I don't care what you do if you can convince yourself it works for you.

And oh by the way, Have a nice day.

FyredUp

[HotTrotter]

Fine this is how you want this topic to go? Let's take it all the way down then. I find it amazing how you guys with your little hose have to defend your having a little hose by attacking the guys with the big hose.

Now that is funny, ehs7554 has a little hose :D :D :D

Your comments are some of the most ignorant, non-fact based, bunch of tripe I have ever seen posted here. If all you can handle is 3 inch and reloading 4 or 5 inch is too much for you boys to handle then lay out 3 inch, hell, lay out doubles and triples if you want. While you're rolling and loading 1500 feet of 3 inch my guys will have picked up their 500 feet of 5 inch, laughed at you and headed back to rest in the recliners at the station.

Nice job staying on topic and even staying close to factual. Like it or not the facts of being able to flow 3 times what your one 3 inch will do and not having to pick up multiple lines makes 5 inch in OUR case a better idea. We do what we do because it works for us. Frankly, I don't care what you do if you can convince yourself it works for you.

And oh by the way, Have a nice day.

FyredUp

On a more serious note, we have many times had to lay in 1000 or 2000 feet of hose. The little 3 inch hose doesn't really cut it for those lays at all. And guess what, if the water main loses it's supply you are screwed with those little 3" hoses. Those of us with big hoses are self sufficent and don't rely on some one else to get us our water.