St Louis

[fieldseng2]

Starting pay is $35,361.00. Top Pvt pay is over 50K. Pension based on your last 2 years of service + time on the job. We've got a few issues here, but all in all its a great job.





http://stlcin.missouri.org/OnlineJob/jobdetail.cfm?OpeningID=754

[brk2733]

Hello fieldseng I have a couple questions and was wondering if you could help me out here. I'm 18 years old and will be graduating May 24th. On the online application it says the minimum Age is 18 years old but on the St Louis FD website it said 21, has that one just not been updated yet? Also, the online registration is due May 18th, I won't be getting my diploma before that does that mean I'm out of luck and would have to try again next time? I know that being so young already hurts my chances of getting hired but I figure, if I have the opportunity to take the test for a bigger city department I would love the opportunity and hopefully the best could possibly happen. Thanks for any help and for bringing the application to my attention!

[fieldseng2]

The 18-33 age range is hot off the presses!

They changed this back due to hiring too many 50-60 y/o recruits that would/could never work until retirement age, and/or not passing the academy/probation. As long as your in the 18-33 range, your age will not help or hinder you. There are several guys on the job that were hired when they were 18. Some are even Chiefs!

As far as your diploma...Im not 100% sure. I will try to find out for you. In the mean time....

If I recall, you won't need a copy of your diploma until you are actually hired.

There is a place to add remarks in the education section of the application. I would explain when you are graduating, and will receive a diploma. I doubt this will be an issue. Besides, by the books, you'll have completed high school, and receiving your diploma will be a matter of formality.

You can also call the Department of Personnel Recruitment & Examination at 314-622-4308. Explain your situation to them, and they should be able to tell you what to do.

Any other questions/problems feel free to drop me a line. ;)

Good Luck!

[trajanmcgill]

Starting pay is $35,361.00. Top Pvt pay is over 50K. Pension based on your last 2 years of service + time on the job. We've got a few issues here, but all in all its a great job.

Hey, St. Louis would be a great city to be in. I noticed a couple of things not explained well on the city's web page: there is apparently a residency requirement, but the link to it is broken. Do you have to be a city resident to apply, or just at the time of appointment? Also, one page on the department's site says something about working a 24-on/24-off schedule, but doesn't elaborate. What is the work schedule like for firefighters there?

[fieldseng2]

We do have a residency reqquirement. You have to reside within the city when you complete your probationary year (12 months). I believe the official phrase is..... "Within 180 Days AFTER Completion of Your Working Test Period".

I was living in Indiana before I was hired, and a classmate from the academy was from Texas. So, no, you do not have to live here to apply or get hired.

The union is aggressively trying to get it abolished. Time will tell.

We work 24on 24off 24on 24off 24on, the 4 days off and the whole thing starts over. We call them "cycles".

Anything else?? Feel free to ask.

[rdub244]

Haha I'll ask it.
Any idea on how many will be hired? How many academies do you usually run a year/ how many in each class.
List is good for two years I assume? How many tested about when you were hired?
Thanks!

[fieldseng2]

There have been a lot of guys leaving/retiring....more to follow. Who knows how many they will hire. They have hired over 100 off this list w/an average of 2 classes a year. Class size has been in the 20-30 range.

I have no idea how many were on the list, but I believe they are in the 200-300 range on the list. The list is offically good for 2 years, but they have the option to extend it, which they did for one year. So, the current list is 3 years old, which they will replace when the new one is complete.

I want to say about 1,800 put their aps in.

What else you got? :D

[27Truckie]

Can you give us some statistics on the dept.

[fieldseng2]

900 Uniformed personnel

30 Engine Companies (ALL 75' quints)

4 Hook&Ladders (2 100' TL, and 2 125' Aerials)

10 ALS Medic units (Staffed mostly by "Non-Suppression" personnel)

2 Rescue Squads

6 Battalion Chiefs

1 Deputy Chief on each shift

Every kind of support vehicle you can think of...

Tech Rescue Task Force

Marine Unit Task Force

HazMat Task Force

3 Staffed firehouses at Lambert International Airport commanded by a Battalion Chief.

Over 100,000 calls for service a year.

Did I leave anything out?

[27Truckie]

Thank you for the info.

[fieldseng2]

Anytime :cool:

[27Truckie]

What Co are you on? Also I here you guys burn ALOT. Just so you know I am in the Champaign/Urbana IL area and thanking about testing with you guys

[fieldseng2]

Im assigned to Engine 7. We are on Jefferson Ave., on the outer edge of downtown.

Yeah...depending what part of town you are, you see plenty of fire.

I've got family in Mahomet. Nice area. I tested for Champaign a few years ago, but I hadnt finished college. So that knocked me out of the running getting on. Just wasn't meant to be I guess.

[fieldseng2]

Pic of most of my 1st Alarm response area. My "Still District" starts after the other side of the hi-rises.

[27Truckie]

I live in Mahomet also.

[almsfan21]

Fieldseng,
Thank you for all of your help. What kind of written test is given? Also, any idea how many will apply, ballpark to the 1800 mentioned earlier?

[fieldseng2]

27Truck...kool...yeah my niece and nephew are Bulldogs! My brother-in-law was happy to hear you'll no longer be a "Dry Town"!


almsfan......No idea about the written test. It is completely different test that I took. This one os video based. My guess it will show a scenerio and you will have to answer questions/how you would handle based on what you watched. I don't know if will be fire based or not, but I doubt it.

Couldn't tell ya how many will apply. But we should hear many do after the deadline.

[almsfan21]

Fieldseng,
Cool, thanks. I am an 18 year old, graduating high school in May, and I've never tested for a department, but have studied for the tests before. I'm just trying to decide whether it's worth the drive from KC....

[fieldseng2]

If you're looking for a career in the fire sevice the best advice I've been given is test EVERYWHERE AND ANYWHERE you can. The more experience you get testing the better advantage you have, and you'll go to each test with a clearer head.


No one says you have to take the job or keep it even if something else comes along. I've tested several places...probably more than a dozen. I've always did well, but only got the call twice. you may get quckly discouraged if you focus all your time on one department.

Keep your options open!

[almsfan21]

Will do! Thank you for the advice, I am waiting to start at the local community college Fire Academy for my FF1, FF2, EMT etc...so I figure it can't hurt to test for St. Louis, or anyone...btw, I was in St. Louis last week for spring break, and I have to compliment you guys. I was in Union Station at the Hard Rock and the fire alarm went off and the staff just shrugged it off. A company showed up real quick, and actually checked for fire, unlike some other departments I have seen. The guys were in full gear and SCBAs donned...they were ready. It was really impressive. Thumbs up, lol.

[rdub244]

What's the staffing like?
4 on engine, 4 on truck?
Any "bonus" points besides veterans points?
Thanks again!

[fieldseng2]

Minimum 4 on all Engines and Hook&Ladders, 6 on the squads.

Education/experiance might help you a little.

[fieldseng2]

Ive been getting some PMs regarding city employees getting preference over non-city employees....

THIS HAS CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!:D


City employees NO LONGER get hired over non-city employees regardless of their score. They will get 5pts. added to their final score only.

50/50 hiring (1 black for 1 white) is GONE. Although that was pretty much the demographics of my class.

Age limit is 18-33. Previously there was not an age cap.

fieldseng2

[adam47]

Hey

Does Stlfd hire EMT's (not wishing to become firefighters)?

[SFDredhat126]

Bob - One of your guys left to come to our department in early April. I've heard he's doing a good job.

It's good to hear some of the new guidelines on the test. It used to be nearly impossible to get hired without transferring to the FD from a different city department.

[fieldseng2]

Does Stlfd hire EMT's (not wishing to become firefighters)?

Yes they do, we still hire EMT's/Medics thru the EMS Division. But, the last time I checked EMT starting pay was pretty crappy.


It's good to hear some of the new guidelines on the test. It used to be nearly impossible to get hired without transferring to the FD from a different city department.


ya, know if we could only get residency lifted, we would be doing great!

[almsfan21]

Is there no oral board? I was looking through the website and saw no mention of an oral board...

[fieldseng2]

Is there no oral board? I was looking through the website and saw no mention of an oral board...

I noticed that too. I had one when I tested. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

[trajanmcgill]

Anything else?? Feel free to ask.

The deadline on the Personnel Department web page is listed as June 1, which conflicts with a May 18th deadline I've seen listed elsewhere. Do you know which date is correct?

[fieldseng2]

The deadline was orginally May 18th,and has been extended to June 1st.

With the minimum age requirement recently lowered to 18.....they needed to extend the deadline so the young bucks applying could get their high school diplomas in hand so they could apply for the job.

[clark918]

The deadline was orginally May 18th,and has been extended to June 1st.

With the minimum age requirement recently lowered to 18.....they needed to extend the deadline so the young bucks applying could get their high school diplomas in hand so they could apply for the job.

That sucks. More competition for me. : (

[almsfan21]

Fieldseng, did you ever figure out if there was an oral board or not?

[trajanmcgill]

The deadline was orginally May 18th,and has been extended to June 1st.

With the minimum age requirement recently lowered to 18.....they needed to extend the deadline so the young bucks applying could get their high school diplomas in hand so they could apply for the job.

Ah, okay, that makes sense. Thanks.

[fieldseng2]

Fieldseng, did you ever figure out if there was an oral board or not?


Sorry....

I forgot all about it....I'm at the firehouse tomorrow, and I will attempt to look into that.

[almsfan21]

Cool, thanks

[GFPD2005]

Well I threw my hat in. We shall see.

Appreciate all the info fieldseng. I still need to do a ride a long, maybe this summer.

[brk2733]

Well, it's about the last day for the applications so just want to give a good luck to everyone who's going out for the testing.

[giweff]

I put in a application hopefully I will do good on the test we shall see.

[fieldseng2]

Good Luck To All!!!!!

[brk2733]

Just wondering if anybody has gotten any of their information yet or has heard anything? This is the first test I've applied for and am just anxious to hear anything, wanting to make sure I didn't screw up the application or anything somehow:/

[bobbymurphy]

Brk,

Nothing here.

[clark918]

Nothing here either. I was thinking I may have screwed something up as well. This is taking a long time for a letter.

[brk2733]

Alright thanks guys, that's a bit of a relief.

[almsfan21]

I haven't heard anything yet, either..

[fieldseng2]

Be patient. They don't move very fast w/stuff like that around here. If you haven't heard anything by the end of the month, give Personnel a call.

[GFPD2005]

No rush. Waited for 2 years, I can wait another month, or two or three...

Besides, maybe by the time the list is finalized that residency "thing" will be taken care of!

Hey Fieldseng,

General question:

Would you say that STLFD big picture wise is progressive or traditional? Just curious about what you have seen.

I know the quint concept is considered progressive, but was it created because of budgets and staffing or to truly be progressive?

[fieldseng2]

Would you say that STLFD big picture wise is progressive or traditional? Just curious about what you have seen.

I know the quint concept is considered progressive, but was it created because of budgets and staffing or to truly be progressive?


From what ive seen probably a little bit of both. When StL went to all quints back in the 1980's the city as a whole was going down the sewer, but was burning like the Bronx. In the mid 20th century, the population was around 800,000. We had 50 firehouses then.

With social and economic decline, along with "white flight" the tax base and population fell in the 2nd half of the century. Now we have a residental population around 350,000, with a daytime popualtion well over 1 million.

The fire department had to come up w/a way to provide 1st rate serice w/a 3rd rate budget....thus the quint concept was born. Although, Im a fan of traditional "engines and trucks"...the quint concept does work....if everyone does what hey are supposed to do!

It looks like the city is coming back to life...LOTS of new constuction, redevelopment, and the population is on the rise again. I doubt the quint concept will ever leave St. Louis, but as the population, industry, and new consturction grows we may have to re-evaluate some of our strategy.


There are still some struggles going on both w/the city and the fire department, but I still believe it's a great department to work for.

Did I answer your question, or did I ramble off course?? lol

[clark918]

How exactly does a city with all quints operate? I work for 2 POC depts in WI and both have quints as their ladder trucks, but that's in addition to engines. Do they just dispatch you as an engine or ladder based on the call and who else is dispatched? Just a bit confused.

[fieldseng2]

We have...

30 Engine Cos. ALL are 75' quints. Staffed w/a a total of 4.

4 Hook&Ladders. 2 are 100' tower ladders and the other 2 are 125' areials. Staffed w/a total of 4. All of these trucks are quints.

2 Heavy Rescue Squads. Staffed w/a total of 6.

When it comes right down to it 90% of the time the engines operate as an engine company. Hook&Ladders (truck co.) are almost always a truck company. The function of a company depends on the order they are dispatched and/or arrive at a fire.

For a 1st Alarm fire....(non-high rise buildning)

1st in Engine: Leads out w/appropiate attack line, makes the hydrant.

2nd in Engine: Does "truck work". 2 FFs begin primary search, the other 2 throw ladders to the front and rear of the building. Forcible entry, salvage/overhaul.

3rd in Engine: "Back up Water"...assists first in engine w/additional water if needed, assists w/attack line and/or pulls 2nd line off if needed.

4th in Engine: "Backs up the Hook&ladder". Gives them a second supply line if they make a raise, helps with ventilation.

5th in Engine: RIT. MINIMUM 4 man team w/RIT bag, TIC, additional rescue rope, and appropiate tools to gain access and rescue downed FF.

Hook&Ladder: Ventialtion, primary search, forcible entry, salvage/overhaul,throws more ladders if needed.

Squad: Forcible entry, assist w/ventilation, secondary search, salvage/overhaul. Secondary RIT.

Depending on the structure and conditions you'll get 2-3 chiefs.

High rise ops are similar...w/SOPS stating specific equipment companies will bring with them into the building, and which companies are making the standpipes and sprinklers.

In any case, what seat you are riding depends on what job you have too.

That is the Readers Digest Condensed version, but you should get the picture. Alot of people get bent out of shape about the quint VS. traditional, but as you can see, at least in our case, the only real difference is all of our engines have aerials on them. Occasionaly an engine might have to act as a truck if they are 2nd in. Thats the only real difference. If multiple alarms are struck, they send more Hook&Ladders.

GFPD asked earlier if StL move to quints to be progressive or for budget constraints. I would say if we went back to the traditional way, we would have plenty of engines, and would have to come up with 5 or 6 ADDITIONAL Hook&Ladders. So it's not like we would have to double everything we have.

What we really are short on is Medic units. We have 12, and could really use 24. Some Medic unis go on as many as 20 runs in a 24/period. Our M10 runs over 6,000 runs a year.

The quint concept seems to work for us, I don't believe it would work for everybody. It still requires plenty of manpower, equipment, good water supply system, and other resources. If you only run 2 man engines out of a couple stations w/sparatic water supply I wouldnt reccomend it.

[GFPD2005]

Thanks for answering fieldseng.

[giweff]

I got my letter today to test so they are out. Good luck to everyone else who applied.

[almsfan21]

Got my letter as well today, fieldseng, any idea on how many applied?

[brk2733]

Still waiting to get mine, just curious is the testing date still July 19/20th range? Just trying to plan ahead a little and finalize my plans for the trip.

[almsfan21]

Thursday, July 19th, 0830....

[almsfan21]

Also, fieldseng, thanks for all your help. Do you have any more info on the rest of the hiring process post Fireteam test?

[27Truckie]

If you have any common since you will do just fine I took this same fireteam test 2 years ago and got hired on the dept that I am on now it is easy.

[fieldseng2]

Havent heard how many applied, been too much other drama going on here. I will see if I can find out when I go in tomorrow.

I never took the Fireteam test. The written test I took to get on here was retarded.

[almsfan21]

So does anyone know what is after the FireTeam (assuming you pass)? Is it the standard physical test, then oral board, etc...

[clark918]

Sorry, but what is the Fire Team test? Is it personality based? Reading? Video? Thanks.

[giweff]

it says in the letter what each part intails. i am test the 20th so i would keep those two day open for testing. The 19th and 20th

[clark918]

Okay, thanks giweff. Hopefully my letter will be here today.

[brk2733]

Just got my letter today, have the afternoon test on the 19th.


Again, good luck to everybody and thanks for all the info fieldseng.

[clark918]

i'm at 8:30 on july 19. anyone from the area know of any nearby hotels? im from milwaukee and dont want to have to start driving at midnight. :/

[Ngerman473]

Got my letter today!!! I will be there testing so about ride alongs who would you recommend we contact do they even offer them? and have we heard a a total # who applied?

[nick1427d]

To all those needing a place to stay while you test,

Your best bet in my opinion is to check with hotels in Illinois. I live right across the river in Cahokia, we have a holiday inn express, it's about a 10 min drive to downtown. Considering the time of year you should have no problem getting a room cheap.

Just thought you guys could use the info

I'll be testing with you guys as well, looking forward to it and good luck to all.

[ziggy171]

I got mine the other day. I go at 8:30 on the 20th. Ride alongs would be cool.

[Ngerman473]

They having four tests? and have we gotten a total # of applications?

[fieldseng2]

have we gotten a total # of applications?

Still trying to find out....

[nick1427d]

fieldseng

I'm curious to know

How long after they say..."you're hired", do you start the academy? For instance when will the next academy be for this round of hires?

[fieldseng2]

How long after they say..."you're hired", do you start the academy?


As soon as the entire class gets thru w/their physicals, background checks, etc. Probably a month or two.

For instance when will the next academy be for this round of hires?


I would think it's unlikely there will be another class until the new list comes out. I couldn't give you a good guess how soon they would pull a class off that list, but it will definatley be needed. What you need to understand there is no regular schedule of new recruit classes. That is, sometimes classes do not run right after another.

I can tell you that off the current list there has been 5 classes ranging from 20-30 recruits in each class. I believe they went thru 200-300 off the list to get those recruits.

[clark918]

Do you happen to know how many were on that list?(the last one)

And how long is the list usually good for?

[fieldseng2]

Do you happen to know how many were on that list?(the last one)


I dont know for sure, but if I would have to guess around 600-700.


And how long is the list usually good for?

There are a few screwy things going on here right now. I tested 3 years ago, and I believe the list before me started 6 years before.

So as of now, you can be just about anywhere on the list, and you still have a chance.

[clark918]

fieldseng or anyone else...

Are there any fire houses near the convention center? I'm coming in from Milwaukee a day early and was hoping to possibly visit one if I have some free time.

Another few questions...

Does St. Louis usually only hire people with a lot of experience?

Are they big in hiring minorities and women? Or is is usually about even?

Is their physical test the CPAT or their own PAT?

Thanks.

[brk2733]

I'm coming in from Florida a day early as well(testing Thursday coming in tomorrow) and am thinking about just exploring a bit of the city, any hot spots to check out(could be anything, doesn't necessarily have to be firehouse related)?


Also, just want to give one more Good Luck to everybody going out for the test.

[bobbymurphy]

My recommendation would be Rigazzis if your looking for some good italian food. It's located in an area known as the "the hill" which features quite a few italian restaurants, shops, and grocery stores that make the area pretty unique.

Hopefully someone who knows the area a little better will chime in, but thats my recommendation for a good lunch/dinner.

http://www.saucemagazine.com/rigazzis/

Good Luck,

Bobby

[fieldseng2]

Hey guys,

I'll try to answer questions as best I can. Let me say a few things before I begin.

1st GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF A YOU! It's a great job!

2nd Unforfunately, I have to give you a little disclaimer about the biz here right now. I think it would be OK for anyone to drop by a firehouse and talk to the fellas, but I must warn you there is a lot of tension, and some disgruntled guys. There has been a 4 year battle over promotions, which should end very soon. I doubt anyone would be rude to you, actually the worst you could expect is they might try to encourage you to go somewhere else "better". It sucks about the promotions, but it's still a good job here. So, take that in stride, and concentrate on the business you have to take care of this week.....


Now on with the questions.............


Are there any fire houses near the convention center? I'm coming in from Milwaukee a day early and was hoping to possibly visit one if I have some free time.


Not within walking distance really. The center kind of sits on the border of a couple of Still Districts. Engine 2 (Union No. 2) is on Tucker and Spruce along with H&L 6, B2. The Shops and old training tower are behind the 2's. If you walk about 2-3 blocks East on Spruce, you will run right into the Stan Musial Statue at Busch Stadium. I would say yuo could come visit me, but my oldest turns 13 on Friday and we will be out of town. That would be the best house to visit downtown.

Does St. Louis usually only hire people with a lot of experience?
Are they big in hiring minorities and women? Or is is usually about even?


I'm told experience will help you, I don't know for sure. In my recruit class there were 4 of us that came from different departments. We were in the 2nd class off the list. As far as hiring minorities and women go, it's an even playing field now. 1 for 1 is gone. Full-time citty emploees get 5 extra points instead for hiring priority now. So if you are on your game, you have a pretty good shot.

Is their physical test the CPAT or their own PAT?


My test was a modified "Combat Challenge", but i hear they may be giving the CPAT this time. I also hear they have hired an outside firm to do the whole testing process to keep some chronic complainers off their back, and keep it from being biased.

I'm coming in from Florida a day early as well(testing Thursday coming in tomorrow) and am thinking about just exploring a bit of the city, any hot spots to check out(could be anything, doesn't necessarily have to be firehouse related)?


-Ragazzis is good, actually, anything on "The Hill" is good.

-Check out "The Landing" in the evening. Lots of good resturants and stuff.It's the earliest settlement in St. Louis right on the river front just North of the Arch.

-The Arch is cool of it's a clear day, and there is a pretty cool musem below the Arch.

-We have one of the best zoos in the world, located in Forest Park. Also a world class Science Center.

-Check out historic Union Staion located downtown on Market Street. Vist the Fudge Factory near the rear entrance.

- Out of towners....when you are dining out, you have to try toasted ravioli.

-Lots of good bar/grills in Soulard, and one of the oldest open air markets in the country.

-You can't complete a trip to StL w/out a visit to Ted Drewes located in south city on Cippewa. It's a famous frozen custard stand on historic Route 66.




Hey...gotta run my kid to a Dr. appointment. All of these and more can be found in StLouis Magazine that should be in your hotel room. I'll try to give more ideas later...any questions drop me a line.

Good luck, be safe.......................... ....................

[giweff]

Toasted raz, Ted Drew, and who could forget about IMO's They are all must haves.

[clark918]

So I got some of that toasted ravioli delivered to my hotel room last night. DELICIOUS! haha

I'm feeling pretty decent about the test. I'm not sure about the first part with the situations since there were so many answers that seemed right during that, but the Math, Reading, and Mechanical sections were pretty easy.

They said 1300 applications came in.(WAY less than I expected) Then they said usually about 300-400 pass and move on to the PAT. On the information sheet we filled out they had a score card thing. After PAT they had physical exam and background check, but didn't see an interview anywhere in there. Well good luck to those who tested.

[devondual]

Okay, was I the only that was shocked about all the people that didn't bring X2 pencils, photo I.D., letters and still able to test, futhermore didn't even turn their phones off!

[aneff3904]

I agree with you, it seemed that the instructions were easy to follow and there was so many that didn’t. I tested for Seattle last year and the give the same test (first portion) so if you have a level head about you no worries. I hope you all did well and I make it to the next round. I was also surprised by the few people in the process but even some of those folks could not follow directions. And who doesn’t bring a photo I.D? Well if nothing else it was could practice and I hope I see you all at the next step.

[clark918]

The worst part of the test was that damn lawyer. haha He had to say that copyright information before every section of the test.

It also seemed like the world wanted me to miss my flight as well. On top of that lawyer thing, they took forever to let everyone out since they went row by row(I was near the back), they started a little late, and during the Math section. We finished and then they gave us 6 minutes just to fill in bubbles for the 25 questions we answered. Yet, when time was up, plenty of people still raised their hands and asked for more time. I don't see how it takes over 10 minutes to fill in 25 little circles for questions that you already answered. Thankfully my flight was delayed a half hour.

[Ngerman473]

You definitely weren't the only one rushing for a flight. I as well got lucky and had like a 15 min delay, not much but just enough!!! ooh I must agree as well the worst part of that test was the lawyer. haha So how does everyone else feel they did?

Good luck everyone

[fieldseng2]

Sounds like I had it made when I took the test. We didnt have any of that stuff. Took the test, and you left. 2 parts 1) Reading Comprehension 2) Self evaluation.

However, I pretty sure I know why everything was much more regimental than when I took it. It really is the way it should be though.

I'm interested in the "lawyer part" though...


Are they giving you guys the CPAT or do you even know what the agility test will be?

[clark918]

They didn't really talk about the physical test. They just said that it will be explained in our letter if we pass. However, on the score sheet of out test it said PAT I think. So I'm guessing it's not the CPAT, but a custom PAT like you said earlier. I am hoping it's the CPAT though because that's a lot easier than most other department tests.

[fieldseng2]

Hmmm...

Ill look into that. Actually, I thought the test I took here was easier than the CPAT...kind of a modified "Combat Challenge".

Good luck...

[brk2733]

I feel pretty good about how the test went, I think I nailed the Mechanical/Math/Reading sections and I feel pretty good about the first Video sections but it's hard to really judge it since it's all so opinionated. Overall though I got a pretty good impression of the city on my trip(almost cried when I saw the one gas station had gas prices at 2.89$ I think it was, getting back to town here the gas is up to $3.09).

Oh just curious fieldseng, how "busy" of a house would you say Engine 9 is compared to the other companies in the department? Are they one of the busier companies or average? Just wondering because it seemed as if I either saw them or could hear them flying past my hotel room constantly during my stay.

[fieldseng2]

Engine 9 gets their fair share of runs. While not one of the busiest or most sought after houses, I believe the get over 2,000 runs/year. Mostly medical, auto alarms, and MVAs.

Where was your hotel? If you were downtown you were very likely hearing the sirens of Engine 2....the 2nd busiest in the city (over 3400 runs/year)

[clark918]

brk... were you the guy I talked to at the Econolodge?

[brk2733]

Yeah that would be me clark, stayed at the econolodge on the corner of the football dome. I'm pretty sure most of the calls were Engine 9, but I did see Engine 2 on a call once, and once while I was exploring downtown they were outside near the post office(I want to say by Olive street? but could be mistaken).

[clark918]

Wow, 1300 people taking the test, and the one person that I talk to at the hotel is the person from here. haha

[brk2733]

haha yeah it definitely is a small world isn't it

[fieldseng2]

I'm pretty sure most of the calls were Engine 9, but I did see Engine 2 on a call once, and once while I was exploring downtown they were outside near the post office(I want to say by Olive street? but could be mistaken).


Post Office is on Market....Olive is just 2 blocks north! ;)

[aneff3904]

I was surprized that there were only 1300, the last process that i went through that was how many made it to the second interview. What do you think about the letter from city hall to the chief? Is the "Racial Wars" as bad as what the media make it out to be? Or is it just a few bad apples.

[clark918]

From what it looks like, there isn't an interview during this process. It isn't listed on any of the recruitment things. Also wasn't listed on the score sheet with the test.

Also, visit http://firefeeds.com It has dispatch for any place that you want. You do have to pay a monthly fee to join. However, they have about six cities that you can listen to for free, and St Louis is one of them.

[FFMFS22]

I wouldn't get your hopes up for the STLFD anyhow. I see once the results come out there will be lawsuits filed and highways shut down because the test wasn't fair and racially biased. STLFD might hire again in 5 years. I took the test and saw the racial makeup of the day I took the test. People will feel "wronged". I just don't know what will happen first, Promotions or Hiring.

I do think it's quite silly for a fire department not to award points on skills, fire/ems background/certifications and education. And there is only one thing you get 5 extra points for and that is for being a city resident. That's how you get jobs on many fire districts and departments around the area and also around the country. You want the best, yet lower the standards and you only get what you get. I know several friends of mine that are great firefighters and they had to wait years to get on and many decline the job because the city took too long. You have FF I/II and and EMT you should get priority in the positions. Your some regular schmoe that hops from job to job and think riding on the red truck would be cool, not the right person from the job. Funny how I know one of those people who fits the description I just described and they are an "Actor" on the south side.

[clark918]

I thought I read or heard somewhere that having EMT will help because they don't include that in the academy. They just require you to get it on your own within your first year.

Also I have a question for anyone that already works there. Do you think that because they will have to fill all of those officer positions once the whole situation is settled, that there will be more firefighters hired than normal? I mean if they are going to promote the 30 people that they need, that leaves 30 open firefighter spots.

And did anyone get their letter yet? They said mid-August, so I'm guessing we should be getting them soon. I'm from Wisconsin, so I'll probably be one of the last to get one.

[FFMFS22]

They need to take people who have an EMT/experience/certifcations 1st because that means that they already have it and it will be one less thing to worry over. It makes no sense to go through the process of hiring and going through the academy and then work for 1 year and to not get your EMT license and your gone. Like I said, waste of space, waste of time.

Each day goes by and makes me wonder how long the process will take because of all the other issues in the FD.

Did you notice they never gave you what the passing score was??? There is a percentage they want, thats why they wanted you to complete the "optional" demographic about your age, schooling, RACE, experience. It is time that "RACE" is no longer asked on a test like that. What does it matter in the form of the test? If you pass the test, race shouldnt matter. Trust me, they will throw sections of the test out and rank upon what sections were passed in greater numbers. FIRE has already stated in their promotion lawsuit that language is biased towards their group. So math is out. Probably the "fill in the _______" will be tossed out because there were confusing words. (Actually the last section was the only "Fire-Related" portion of the test). The Human Relations will be tossed out becuase those are not "True" people of St. Louis.

Im just not too enthused with this test towards St. Louis. But I just hope that I am wrong.

[fieldseng2]

I wouldn't get your hopes up for the STLFD anyhow. .............................. .. STLFD might hire again in 5 years.


I don't know where you get your info, but even with the class that just graduated, we are still short. There are some things coming to a head here very soon. Once the smoke has cleared, and this entry list is certified, I would suspect they will have more than a few classes off of it.


Trust me, they will throw sections of the test out and rank upon what sections were passed in greater numbers. FIRE has already stated in their promotion lawsuit that language is biased towards their group. So math is out. Probably the "fill in the _______" will be tossed out because there were confusing words. (Actually the last section was the only "Fire-Related" portion of the test). The Human Relations will be tossed out becuase those are not "True" people of St. Louis.


1st of all they will not throw out portions of the test out. My test/list went to fedral court, and 50/50 was tossed out. I didn't get a score for anything until I finished everything and got my ranking. I scored a 96.5% overall, and was ranked #42 on the list, came in on the 2nd class off the list. I don't remember my score on the written.

2nd FIRE lost their lawsuit. It is going thru another (supposedly last) appeal. But, my observation is this appeal is like the Titanic struggling to stay afloat.

A federal judge declared the test fair, impartial, unbiased, and adequately measured what a competent officer should be.

An industrial psychiatrist (PhD) who happens to be African-American, and a former Dean at Penn State reviewed/took the exam prior to giving it here. He determined the test was fair, impartial, unbiased, and adequately measured what a competent officer should be.

FIRE's own attorney, expert witness's, and leadership could not specifically point out what portion of the test were indeed biased.


NO ONE is fudging w/the scores and/or list to get people where they want.

The problem here is there has been 30 years of forced hiring and promotions of people who barely passed, or in some cases did not pass the exams. Now it is supposed to be expected and accepted practice. Because the tides have changed and everything is on a fair playing field ...certain people are fighting this trend because everyone is supposed to be held to the same standards.

If those same people were given a FAIR shot 50 years ago....this problem would not exist.


I will agree. I think that people with experience, training, education related to the job should have an edge over everyone else.

In today's fire service...it takes more than balls and brawn to do the job. Think of all the different types of things a regular back step firefighter is called for....you have to have a vast knowledge about different building construction, fire behavior, HazMat, mechanics/designs of vehicles, EMS, WMD/terrorism, tech rescue, and on, and on, and on...

Let's say you have some rare ailment. Would you go to your regular county bumkin doctor that might have seen one of these cases in 20 years, or a specialist who see's more than 20 cases in one day? It's a no brainer.

There are plenty of tired/bitter people on the job already. We don't need any more of that here. We need ambitious, experienced, motivated, and educated people to bring this dept. back up on it's feet. I've only been here a short time, but have been in this business a fairly long time now...Spreading negativity only spreads the disease.

I suppose I could be wrong, but I see alot of postive things happening in the near future here. Without a doubt there will be hills and bumps along the way, but things have a way of working out in the end.

Good luck to you all.....

[clark918]

Has anyone received their letter about the written test yet? They said mid-August is when we should get them, and the end of August is the very latest where we could start calling. So just wondering if I'm the only one out of the loop here.

[clark918]

Actually I decided to give them a call and they said that the letters are being sent out today. So good luck to the rest of you that tested.

[brk2733]

Thanks for the update clark, I've been wondering myself when these would be coming out glad to finally have some news. Good luck to everyone as well again.

[devondual]

The word that I've be told is that the test has been thrown out due to failure rate.

[giweff]

That is true I just got my letter today so I am sure everyone else should get their's soon. I think it is a bunch of B. S. but hey that’s all right they are just going to make the test easier and the results will be the same. I can't wait to see how they explain this. It should be interesting.

[FFMFS22]

I Told Ya So

[clark918]

Wow so I just wasted a CRAP load of money flying down there for nothing.

[fieldseng2]

It is true........

A FF I work has a kid who is testing too. He got the letter stating not enough applicants passed the written test, and another test will be given at a different date.

Although it did not mention it was because of racial makeup, one could speculate. The only issue that would trump this theory is the fire department has nothing to do with the hiring process. The entire thing is handled by the Dept. of Personnel. Last I heard, the relationship between the Dir. of Personnel and CFD was about the same as with Dept. of Public Safety Director. So, I would'nt think CFD had input on this.

It is hard to believe out of 1,400 some applicants, less than 400 passed this simple test. This is why I feel they should't set limits on how many are on the list. If it's a list of 2,000 so be it. If it's a list of 200...so be it.

They should also be setting higher standards to who can apply...ie. you must be an EMT and/or have college. AND if they would ever lift the archiac residency rule...you would get a much larger pool of qualified applicants.

[clark918]

Yea, I'd like to know if I passed or not. If I was one of 300 or so, then I'd almost of been guaranteed a spot. Those people that did pass, earned it. If anything I say throw away the video part, but keep that math, reading, and the critical thinking or w/e it was called.

I'm definitely going to be emailing them and complaining. I doubt I will get anything out of it, but I spent a ton of money with airfare, hotel, taxi, and food.

[giweff]

The worst part of it is the people like yourself who came in from out of town most likely wont be coming in again and my guess is you are like myself and more qualified than most of the people who took the test it is not right.

[clark918]

Exactly. Also I don't want to be judgemental, but I know some of those people don't have the dream of becoming a firefighter. You could tell just by the way some were dressed and acted. Some may have thought it'd be easy and wouldn't have to go to college. Others just needed to test so they could get unemployment checks. It's going to happen when it's a big city like St Louis, which has a lot of poverty. It's going to be the same thing next time they test, and they have to realize it. Why not just take the people that passed? They did their work and deserved it. Or if testing is going to be a problem, then require things like FF1 or FF2 and EMT.

[Ngerman473]

This is one of the stupidest things ive heard in along time!!! Why not just process the people who were intelligent enough to pass the test. Yea it was sorta difficult, Myself I didn't struggle and those who passed earned It.... it comes down to the Chicago and FDNY test and someone bit**ed cuz not enough passed is where im gonna let this fly in my own mind. I too spent alot of money traveling to take this test and now its just all thrown away. The city will definitely hear from me as well, However im sure nothing will come of it.
Is there anything we can do as a group who believed we passed the examination.?

well later

[Ngerman473]

Contact # for St. Louis Personel Department.
(314)622-4308

I suggest everyone makes a call and voices an opinion at least because as someone else said the situation in St. Louis and the same thing will happen over and over again... sucks some people were too stupid and everyone else needs to suffer for it. Also guess it just shows the type of people they want working for there city

[RED93SVT]

http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=1283 27

I think it is a bunch of BS. Give the people who passed a chance. I thought the test went good. There has to be another reason they are not telling.

[clark918]

Isn't the test supposed to separate the people that should pass, and those that shouldn't? I'd say it was a good test because it did just that. I doubt there were only a 100 or so that passed where they can't make a list. Even if that was the case, then take those 100 and just run the test in 1 more year instead of 2 or 3.

I feel bad for the good people of the St Louis FD, like fieldseng, that wants it to be a good place. Unfortunately they want to hire crappy people that don't deserve the job. I'd be mad even if I did already work there. I'm sure they will take a little more time to trust the probies since they know the FD isn't always taking the best. I also feel bad that they have a new officer each day because of that promotion problem.

[brk2733]

I just wish there was some way to find out how we did on the test, they say there was an extremely high failure rate, well I want to know if I would have passed and how I would have done. I'm sure other departments are going to be using that test in the future or something similar to it so I'm curious on how I did, I feel like I did pretty well on it and thought I was at least good enough to pass it and make the list but if not I'd rather know I didn't so I know how much I have to improve next time I go testing for a department. It really sucks it's come down to this, a lot of wasted time and money but in the end it's just a learning experience that this kind of crap can happen, just wish they gave out the results so I can really learn from it and all...


Want to say thanks fieldseng, all the info you provided was extremely helpful and just want to say thanks for everything. It's just too bad St. Louis didn't work out in the end.

[fieldseng2]

Want to say thanks fieldseng, all the info you provided was extremely helpful and just want to say thanks for everything. It's just too bad St. Louis didn't work out in the end.

Anytime I can be of service. It's really not a bad place to be...just going thru a rough time right now. I know we are not the only ones having troubles with the hiring process. Chicago is having issues as well as some other larger departments.

If this happened when I tested, I'd probably say the heck with it too. I gave up 12 years seniority and a probable promotion to come here.

It will certainly be interesting to hear the Dir. of Personnel's reason behind all of this when he is back in town.

[truckie3]

Hey fieldseng2 is there any time frame when the new test will be? I know these things can take time. Also do you know FF A. Owens at station 2. He and I are from the same part of MO. I work in work in Northwest AR now as a FF.

[fieldseng2]

I think it is a bunch of BS. Give the people who passed a chance. I thought the test went good. There has to be another reason they are not telling.

The answer is right here....

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/DECB3BDE88EC0F8A8625734E0012FF 4F?OpenDocument

They are tired of being sued by FIRE.

Hey fieldseng2 is there any time frame when the new test will be? I know these things can take time. Also do you know FF A. Owens at station 2. He and I are from the same part of MO. I work in work in Northwest AR now as a FF.

No idea when the next one will be.


Mr. Owens is on my shift. My company is in the same district as the 2's. Actually he has been "temporarily permantly" assigned to the Fire Investigation Unit...which runs out of my house. He actually had a pretty busy day yesterday. We also live in the same nieghborhood.

[fieldseng2]

Hang on to your hats.............

http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=1287 43

It's anybody's guess what will happen...even for yu guys.

It ain't over till it's over..........

[azebolsky]

also note that this job listing has closed, in case somebody missed it in previous posts...lol.

[CaptBob]

Rumor on the street is the entry level program was thrown out because too many failed the reading comprehension and math. Hello?????

The above article is about promotions. St. Louis Fire Chief Sherman George has just schuduled interviews for next week to promote.

[Ngerman473]

WOWIE ur a genius CAPT Bob, Thanks for telling us what we already knew...

Still its crazy that a test that does exactly what its designed to do is thrown out on these basis. Anyway guess I find it amusing that the director of public safety writes about the safety of firefighters, the residents, & businesses being at stake well doesn't that have any pull when it comes too hiring the best qualified candidates for the fire private positions. or do they really want joe shmow off the street who cant read or comprehend but got lucky on the second test.

[CaptBob]

Please don't try to bring fact and logic into the equation.

If your interested go to www.kmox.com there are numerous interviews that
are very interesting. You can get all sides to the story.

You can also check out www.mayorslay.com and read his blog.

CFD's responses can be found at
http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/fire click on the flashing "new"

One agency has gotten so PC they don't give a written. Applications aree scanned and around 200 candidates are invited to the agility. Those that pass go onto the oral board. Those that are hired are in the academy before their backgrounds are completed. it's only right you know? More are coming. Pray for the firefighters and citizens.

[fieldseng2]

Capt. Bob....


It's all tied together...

1st of all, it is no rumor. The test was thrown out for that exact reason. It boils down to there was a large number of a specific demographic that did not pass. Had they kept the process going, there would most likey be a law suit filed on their behalf. The Dir. of Personnel publicly stated he wanted to avoid that.

The promotions for Captains have been tied up for almost 5 years for the same reason. A specific demographic is not largely represented on the list. They claim the test was racially biased, even though a federal judge, industrial pyschiatrist who specializes in this field(who is black), and even their own attorney claim the test is fair, impartial, and adequately measures the level of competancy a fire captian on this job should have.

How is this tied together? How the Mayor, Dir. of Public Safety, the Chief of Department, and the courts follow through with this will have major impact how promotions AND hiring will be handled in the future.

I was talking about this whole mess to an aquantance of mine today. He happens to be African-American. HE summed this whole mess up pretty clearly and accurately. 30+ years ago there was a certain group of people who were treated VERY differently on this job, and to a very extreme here. Right or wrong how they were handled....restitutions were made (50/50 hiring and promoting). For 30 years many people were hired who barely had a GED education, and barely passed the entry exam over others with more eduaction, and scored much higher than them......

NOW...here we are TODAY. 50/50 is gone, and the idea is EVERYONE is supposed to be on an even playing field. And here are the factors he stated:

1) What makes anyone think a poorly educated man who barely passes the entry test, and is GIVEN the job over more qualified people is going to score better than anyone else on a more difficult exam such as a promotional exam?

2) For 30 years a certain demographic was handed a job and promotion without having to put much effort into it. Now they not only expect the hand out...they demand it....ie. the story give a man a fish he'll eat for a day......teach him how to fish he will eat for the rest of his life!

3) This job is no longer a blue collar job were all you need is "balls and brawn". You really need a college level education to be proficiant....even at the entry level with all the services we are expected to provide, especially a large dept. like ours.

4) Where do you draw the line at building a more diverse work force, and hiring/promoting the most qualified person regardless of demographic at the sacrifce of public and firefighter safety?

I wish this black man was younger than the age cap of 33. I would love to have him work beside me.

[fieldseng2]

I should add some information here, especially to the future FFs who tested with StL, and are affected by this current situation.

NIETHER the Dir. of Public Safety NOR the Chief of Department have any authority over ANY of the testing. The Dir. of Personnel has SOLE authority over testing for hiring and promotions. He may ask for input, but it is under his entire discretion on what process and what test will be used for these purposes.

This position is considered by many...one of the most powerful positions in this city...2nd only to the mayor. Some believe he has more authority than the mayor.

The former Dir. of Personnel even testified in court he manipulated test scores and lists to obtain a more diverse list while he held that postion.

There are a few people (some even firefighters) argue that the Dir. of Public Safety nor the Mayor CONNOT force the chief to promote, because under the City Charter he his considered "The Appointed Authority" for the fire department. The Charter supposedly states the "The Appointed Authority has the SOLE discretion to promote/hire or NOT promote/hire".

My question to those folks is....how can a department head have more authority than his/her boss? I don't think so! Even the Mayor has a boss, and answers to somebody. The chief has been given a direct order, and he should follow it to the letter, or suffer the consequences.

It would be the same concept if my Capt. told me to polish the brass in the firehouse....even if it wasnt the scheduled day to do it, and I refused to do it because it was Friday and not Saturday. He gave me an order, and if I refuse...I am insubordinate and should be diciplined.

As I said earlier.....what happens here on Friday will have a major impact on thinhs to come. At least for this department.

[fieldseng2]

Breaking News in case you havent heard...

Sam Simon has resigned as Public Safety Director. He has been replaced by charles bryson...

here is what he had to say...

http://www.mayorslay.com/news/display.asp?prID=715

[clark918]

That's good that he's not going to dumb down the test. That last one was already extremely easy in my eyes.(the math and reading) I guess I'll give it another try since it's a new person at this position. I'll probably have to drive from WI though since I can't afford another flight.

[FFMFS22]

If you dare to try again, they are going to "attempt" testing again, or some form. The hang sheet is back up. But there is no indication when the test(s) will be. I assure that if 1300 showed up several months ago, they may be lucky to get half of that.

[clark918]

hang sheet?

[fieldseng2]

hang sheet?

Hang sheet is the term used by city employees that another department is accepting applications, and is posted for a certian period of time for people to apply for....a "sheet" of paper "hanging" on the bulletin board announcing an open application period

Maybe not the most precise definition, but you get the pont.

[clark918]

so are they going to be taking apps again? or are they just letting the people from last time test. i hope its just the people from last time.

[SaintLouis]

Applications are being taken until 9/21/07

http://stlcin.missouri.org/OnlineJob/jobdetail.cfm?OpeningID=754

[fieldseng2]

According to the city website........they are accepting aps again....

http://stlcin.missouri.org/OnlineJob/jobs.cfm


I don't know why they would do this. I would think this would open themselves up to a lot of trouble, but it is in the authority of the Dir. of Personnel to do this.

However....after tomorrow anything could happen. Hang tight fellas, come on back and try again if you are able. We need to be flooded with qualified people to bring the StLFD back to glory, and bump out the bums looking for a free ride.

[SaintLouis]

http://stlcin.missouri.org/OnlineJob/jobdetail.cfm?OpeningID=754

[clark918]

Well at least they stop accepting them in a week already. So I'm sure that most people outside the city won't know. I'm going to try to make the trip again for sure. I really hope this works out after all of this money I'm spending just to have a CHANCE at the job. It will be worth it though. I just made my first interior attack on the nozzle last week. So now I KNOW that this job is for me. haha

[truckie3]

Hey guys how many of you are going to test this time? I missed out the last time but just sent my app. off a few min. ago. Hey fieldseng2 I talked to FF Owens yesterday while on shift, I think this time I will go through with it, he's been my biggest encouragement to test with you guys. Also have you heard on a test date yet? I know apps are due next Friday.

[aneff3904]

Any idea if we needed to reapply or not? Any idea when the new test date is or what kind of test it will be? Surley it wont be the same test? Congrats on the fire attack and welcome to the club!

[clark918]

Thanks aneff. I think that letter we got in the mail said that we don't need to reapply. This job isn't really being advertised anyway except for in the city itself. So there probably won't be many new applicants. Those are already due Friday as well. So hopefully the test will be soon.

[GFPD2005]

Hey Fieldseng,

Looks like its time for round 2....ding ding ding

Oh well. Big city or small, public safety and politics go hand in hand.

On another note, glad to hear about the Surprise Air case. Glad the family got something.

Hopefully that bond will go through and you can get some quality SCBA. Scott, if I was on the committee. Who makes your turnouts? If you remember I live in the Alton,IL area and see you guys on the news and in person occasionally but have never asked where you got those turnouts that look like they are from the 80's. Maybe its just me or maybe they get used alot, but they dont look like they are from a quality manufacturer.

And yes, I still have to do a ride along sometime.

[STLFIRE]

A local news station caught the City's personnel director lying about why the entrance exam was thrown out.

http://www.kmov.com/video/topvideo-index.html?nvid=177280

[firemedickyle]

Can anybody provide an update on the status of the promotions? Did the Chief ever get in trouble? Did he a receive a slap on the hand?

[clark918]

Did anyone receive a letter yet about retaking the exam?

[fieldseng2]

"ALL COMPANIES STAND BY!!!! ALL COMPANIES STAND BY!!!"


Chief Sherman George has been demoted!!

REPEATING!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chief Sherman George has been demoted!!



Deputy Chief Steven Kotroba has been appointed the interim Chief of Department until the process to select the next permanant CFD takes place.



Chief Kotroba stated on the 5pm news promotions for Captain and Battalion Chief will take place within the week.


I wouldn't disrgard your test from bein thrown out at this point, but I wouldn't rule out it being used as is at this point either.

Stay tuned for updates!

http://www.myfoxstl.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=4511087&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

http://www.myfoxstl.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=4512598&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=1307 96&GID=G9SGB8HS+XoOHjb8Swvl2ka2RV ZLeq4lSQjCTCbvh7g%3D

[clark918]

Wow, great news. Is there an email that you know of where I could contact either the Director of Personal or the new fire chief directly? I'm sure that they are at least considering using those tests. It cost them a lot of money. As well as the fact that they may lost some great candidates because they can not afford to come test again. The only reason I'm wasting my money to come all the way from Wisconsin again is because the director or personal was fired. This situation with the chief also really helps.

[fieldseng2]

I would stand by until the dust settles before contacting them.

Give the new man a chance to unleash his agenda.

He is a good man. He will do everything in his own powers to do the right thing.

[FFMFS22]

Just glad a good man is leading the department now.

Chief Kotraba is a fair man and is a straight shooter.

Hang tight on questioning anyone about testing. Let Chief Kotraba get these long overdue promotions through and a permanant Chief is named (October 30, 2007), hopefully Chief Kotraba remains as the permanant Chief. If nothing is said by end of October, be patient and wait a little longer.

[clark918]

Yea you guys are right. I'm just getting really impatient right now. I was looking at testing with LAFD, but don't want to spend the money if this all works out. I also just got reciprocity for an EMT license for New York. I was thinking of going out there and working FDNY EMS for a few years, and then try to get on the fire dept. Only problem is I wouldn't want to give up fire for that long. Hopefully everything will work out great in the next few months.

[clark918]

Congrats on your new Batallion Chiefs.

http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.aspx?aid=59747&sid=130917&bw=hi&cat=3

[CaptBob]

Congrats on your new Batallion Chiefs.

http://www.ksdk.com/video/default.as...17&bw=hi&cat=3

Congrats to one of our candidates BC Gail Simmons seen in the video. BC Simmons placed 5th on the previous BC test and 2nd on this round of testing.

Nothing counts til you get the badge . . . Nothing!

Captain Bob

[aneff3904]

It would suck if all of us talking about STL didn’t pass the test, man this thread would be dead. LOL I hope all that did pass and If I was one of the ones that didn’t pass no one would ever know LOL. I also wanted to get this thread back to the first page. Good luck and each new day brings even more reason to get out of STL process. I mean wow to have such large dept. and so many problems with race! It seems almost as bad as DC Fire, did every body hear about the two captains going to the meeting in the uniforms and driving dept. cars. Holy crap the demotion has nothing to do with race and everything to do with not following orders, and yes even the chief is held accountable.
Have a great weekend and stay safe.

[fieldseng2]

Actually,

The only group that makes race out of anything are some of the F.I.R.E. leaders....

Just about everyone in the firehouses get along just fine, those that don't is usually two personalities that don't gel...not one race over the other.....

And when the bell hits...all that crap is out the window and everyone does their job.

It was time for a change.....and it has finally come...eventually even the best chief needs to know when it is time to go.

[clark918]

I'd feel dumb if I didn't pass as well. However, I feel confident because they said that most people failed the math and reading which was extremely easy in my eyes. The only part I wasn't sure about was the video scenarios because a couple seemed to have more than one right answer, and you don't know what they are looking for. I heard though that they have a few correct options for each question which makes me feel better.

[FFMFS22]

They are concidering (if they re-test) lowering the passing score from 70% to 40%.

Sleep well St. Louis!

[clark918]

what?!?! I thought the new personal guy said he did NOT want to dumb down the test. This is if they re-test? Or would it be if they keep the current test?

[Ngerman473]

2nd that!!!


Sleep Well St. Louis

[fieldseng2]

They are concidering (if they re-test) lowering the passing score from 70% to 40%


I told all of you guys to keep your cool. That was mentioned on a news cast about a month ago BEFORE George was demoted.

There is ALOT of other MAJOR $h!t coming down the pipe.

Stay calm, stay cool. Don't believe every little thing you hear.

It's not real until it actually happens.

[STLCountyFF]

As a guy who tested for the STLFD and got bumped a few times because I did not have the right color skin, it was indeed a sweet pleasure to see the biggest racist in the STLFD get the boot!

I always thought the city got what they deserved when they promoted on the basis of skin color instead of competency. It was real sad for me to find out in order to get enough blacks for my academy class they had to go down the list to over 150 candidates to find enough black guys who could pass the piss test. Until the other racists (FIRE) get the boot, the STLFD is still going to have problems.

I say throw out all the tests and rate all candidates and promotions based on competency and character. Then you will have a fire department who can rightfully say they are "justifyably proud".

Chief Svetanics came to the job with a vision... Sherman George came to the job with an agenda!

Congratulations and best wishes!

[STLFIRE]

The St. Louis entry test has been officially thrown out. Sorry to those of you who spent your time and money on this exam.


10:45 PM CDT on Thursday, October 11, 2007


Watch News 4 coverage

Related story: Fire Department denies race, politics involved in thrown out tests


(KMOV) - Chief George may be gone, but the controversy over race and testing continues to rage within the fire department.

News 4 has learned that Mayor Francis Slay Thursday agreed to throw out results of the fire department's latest disputed entrance exam.

News 4 has also obtained the test results the city first tried to suppress.

St. Louis Personnel Director Richard Frank more than a month ago discussed July's controversial firefighter entrance exam.

The test used a video format, and Frank said more than 70-percent of applicants failed the test.

He said that's why he sent out a letter informing applicants he was throwing out the results as invalid.

News 4 has since obtained the tests and analyzed the test results.

They show a clear disparity among the 327 African Americans and 425 whites that took the exam.

While they performed almost identically in the human relations section of the test, in the mechanical aptitude section, whites scored 15 points higher. They scored 11 points higher on reading and 10-points higher on math.

Despite Frank's initial concerns about adverse impact on minority applicants late last month Mayor Slay asked Frank to see if the results could still somehow be implemented.

Notices are expected to go out next week to all the candidates who took the July test that a new test will be offered in early November.

The personnel department says it will not use a videotape format, but an old-fashion paper and pencil.

No one has been able to come up with an answer as to why African American candidates did so poorly on this test.

[brk2733]

Just curious if anybody has gotten their letter yet about retesting and if so any of you out-of-towners planning on retesting? Its a tough call for me, it's hard to miss my classes and throwing the money out there for another test that might or might not be used is hard to justify. Just wondering what other peoples plans are.

[clark918]

I think I'm going to go again. I'll have to drive this time though.

Haven't gotten my letter yet.

[clark918]

So shouldn't we have gotten letters yet? I mean if they are testing in the beginning of Nov, then we kind of have to know soon if we are from out of state.

EDIT: I just called to check and the guy that I talked to said that they haven't scheduled it yet. He said that they are still working on scheduling a firm that can administer the test. He was the first guy that I ever talked to that gave me real information.

[fieldseng2]

I doubt you see anything happen until there is a new chief anyway. The mayor said a new chief will be named by the end of October/the first part of November. So anytime now.

And yes....they are looking for a company that can put a test together that has a good history.

[giweff]

I don't think the history matters as much as the people who were taking the test. I didn't see anything wrong with the first test.

[fieldseng2]

There probably wasn't anything wrong the test, but history seems to matter here. They are looking for a company that has the least law suits against them regarding racial impact. Good luck to them with that.

Most people have conceeded who the new chief will be, but I've been in this business long enough to know that you believe it when it actually happens. If it is who they say it will.....it will be the beginning of a new era for the StLFD and well worth the wait.

[giweff]

That is good to hear I know you guys deserve it. I can't wait to take the test again. Thanks for the info and keep it coming.

[aneff3904]

I have taken that same test at two other dept. and either depts. had ever had this much trouble. One dept. larger and one smaller. So I dont think the test had anything to do with as much as the people running the show does. i am still up in the air about retesting, I am currently in the process with two other dept. and if I get the badge from either one I will not be retesting. Good luck to all.

[clark918]

Not sure if anyone ever mentioned this, but ex-chief Sherman George retired 10 days after his demotion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQRldMUvswE

[FFMFS22]

ATTENTION....

Letters are arriving.
Testing is December 15, 2007. Several testing times on this date. Be there, or better chances for those who want the job.

Thank You.

Remember:
Bring yourself and an ID
Bring 2 Pencils
And when they tell you to turn your cell phone off, turn it off. I got other things to do.

That is all.

[clark918]

I'm at 8:00 AM.

Unless I can get a discounted air ticket, it looks like I will be driving this time. I'll have to spend the night since I don't want to drive all night long, then take the test so I'll probably be in the same hotel as last time.

I'll look up the name for those interested, but the one I stayed in was great. Well it was actually a ****hole, but it was cheap. haha It was under $100. The cab driver saw my bill on the sheet I gave him with the address. He didn't even believe the price. He said it's usually at least $200 a night in the downtown area. It was also only about a 5 minute walk from the convention center.

Good luck to the rest of you that got through this whole thing as well.

Also to one of you already on the job... someone mentioned something in a post earlier about the difficulty to get on. They said that unless you go through the promotion(EMS to Fire), you really don't have a shot. Any info on that? Thanks.

O and I'm already excited for that deep fried ravioli that someone convinced me to try last time. haha

[fieldseng2]

Being on EMS (or any other city department) means nothing right now as far as getting priority hiring. They did away with that rule about a year or 2 ago.

But, the future is unimaginable right now. Especially how the list will be put together.

What I mean by that is....City Hall will offically announce our new CFD a week from today. (www.ksdk.com)

Chief Jenkerson is a highly respected (by just about EVERYONE), progressive/aggressive officer. Anyone would consider themselves luck to be led under his command.

Be prepared for a lot of changes...for the good. I can only speculate at this moment what to expect as far as hiring procedures, what the next academy classes will be like, and how recruits will be assigned when they graduate.

Hang on to your hats........StLFD might finally being rising fromits rut

[clark918]

That's good news. If I make it through everything and get hired, it sounds like it would be a great time for that to happen.

Anyone else from here going to the test? Also, is there any word on what this test will be like?

[giweff]

It sounds like SLFD is heading in the right direction. I am planning on taking the test 12:30 on the 15th. Good luck to everyone and any idea of how the test is going to be would be much appreciated.

[fieldseng2]

Here is the new boss and what he has to say........



http://www.myfoxstl.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=4978612&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1


I like this one better:

http://www.kmov.com/video/topvideo-index.html?nvid=194322

[brennanutt]

I’m planning on taking the test on the 15th. does anyone have an idea what kind of content will be on the test.# of questions,? time allowed? I assume mechanical reasoning, math, reading comprehension, and memory. are they going to use the same test that they used in July?

any help is appreciated.
thanks, and good luck to everyone taking the test.

[brennanutt]

anyone have an idea what's going to be on the written test, i assume mecahnical reasoning, math, reading comprehension, personality based questions,
then after the written how soon is the is the cpat?
and is there a oral interview?
also I'am in the process of getting my emt-i what are the chances of getting hired with emt-i. anyone know how many they plan on hiring?
is there link to the testing process?

thanks for the help

[brennanutt]

if you pass the written, when is the the cpat?
anyone know what to expect on the written?
i assume math, mechanial reasoning, reading, personality

also what are the chances of getting hired with emt-i? how many do they plan on hiring?

if this is a repost i aplogize
thanks,

[truckie3]

Hey guys, my test time is 08:00 on the 15th. How many others are going to retake the test. See everbody there.

[truckie3]

Hey brennanutt, what I've heard it won't be the same written test as July, I wasn't their for that one though. Where did you hear about the cpat? I've heard in the past StL FD has thier own pat. Maybe that has changed. Do you know fieldseng2 what test is going to be used. But brennanutt my time is at 8 AM on the 15th. I will be coming in from out of state the day before and staying with a friend of mine up there.

[FFMFS22]

Who said anything about the CPAT? The city has always used a modified test that doesn't resemble the CPAT.

Missouri doesnt recognize the EMT-I. Its either basic or medic.

Expect the test to be easier than the easier test in June. There will probably be less people than who took the test the last time. If there was 900, maybe 600 or 700 will be there. The list is usually good for several years and will do academies as needed.

My personal opinion is that they give preferential spots to people who already poses firefighting certificates, EMT license and college credits/degrees. IF that was ever done, they should shorten the academy to seveal weeks, instead of 14+ weeks of classroom education to be told how to put your gear on, tie a knot, basic first aid, adjust a nozzle and roll a locking twin donut roll. Not to mention, sit through a week of HAZMAT. If they hired people with education already in the field they know that they will not waste their time training and the get them on the track ASAP, instead of paying OT and shutting down engine companies for the day. For the out of state firefighters, you could have the IFSTA manual and state fire I/II program and could technically "test out", as you can show that you can tie a bowline, fold a tarp, put an SCBA on, flow water from an 1 3/4 in. line.

At least you get paid while you go to the academy and are gauarunteed a job and a station assignment when you graduate.

[brennanutt]

thanks for the responses. i'am also testing at 8:am. i did'nt take the test in july either. on the stl fire website it says if successfully pass the written exam you will be given info on the physical agility test. then if you pass both exams you will be placed on the list based on your combined scores of each test.
any one know anything about the physical agility test, and when it will be?
i to will be coming from out of town, although i was born and raised in stl for 24 years. are you guys studying mechainal reasoning, b/c on the upcoming las vegas fire test there is no mechanial reasoning. but i will go ahead and study for everything.
i have my emt-b emt-i is like the Basic but you can start iv and you can admin more drugs. i also have a four degree.

let me know if i can help you out with anything about the city.

[clark918]

There wasn't much to study for on the last one. In my opinion, if you failed the math or reading section on that easy of a test, you shouldn't be trusted to save someone's life. Those sections(the most failed) were a complete joke.

Hopefully the certs will help out now with this new chief. He seems like he isn't going to give preference to any race. It would save SO much money to hire EMTs. Otherwise they take someone based on race with a low test score, and the person either fails at the academy or doesn't get their EMT license within the year required.

I'll be there testing at 8:00. Hopefully it's worth the time this go around. I'll be making the drive from Wisconsin since I don't have the money to fly after I wasted it on the most pointless test of my life last time. : /

There is good news though! The Packers will be playing in St Louis the day after! So I might just stay down there for an extra night and watch the game. I'm sure tickets won't be too expensive over there. Not with a team like the Rams. haha

[fieldseng2]

I have not heard what kind of ability test will be given. I'll see what I can find out on that.

As far as the written goes...nobody is saying. The one I took was retarded. No math, no mechanical apptitude, or anything like that. Only two parts...reading comprehension, and self evaluation. Just be ready for anything.

Be patient fellas...this is only the tip of the ice berg. Nothing is going to happen over night. Without a doubt, our new chief is being watched. There are still groups, factions, and the like criticizing and carefully observing his every move...no matter how noble and good for the StLFD.

By the time you are finally placed on the list, and the lucky ones that are appointed....you folks will see a lot of changes going on. Certainly the fire academy will be nothing like it has been in the past few years.

We had a district meeting with our Battalion Chief yesterday. He filled us in on some of Chief Jenkerson's plans and ideas for the department. I'm not sure what's public knowledge yet, but I can assure you everything was very positive, progressive, and innovative. A good majority seem pretty excited and inquisitive about everything. This could bring the StLFD out of the ashes, and be a highly esteemed fire department once again....And everyone lucky enough to wear that red patch can truly say the are "Justifiably Proud"!

One thing I can tell you. There will be another recruit class off of the current list. They are interviewing a class of 20 right now. So if you are on the current list you still might have a shot this go around....

The reason you ask? I'm not 100% sure, but the rumor I heard was the previous administration "passed over" several very well qualified candidates.....most had a combination of FF I/II, emt or paramedic, other certs, and some with college degrees. According to what I've heard....the previous guy claimed "they did not interview well." A majority of them were a certain demographic that was not the same as the previous guy.


Once again boys and girls...be patient. The man has been in command barely a few weeks. Some things will take time to straighten out. But...I can tell you if you choose to take on the challange it will be well worth your efforts. Get what ever training, certs you can (FF I/II, EMT, Paramedic ), and if you have time and money go to school. This very well could be helpful to you in the very near future.

Good luck on the 15th. Any questions you have in the meantime and there after I will answer as best as I can.

[clark918]

Thanks for the update as always.

Anyone going to that orientation thing on Monday or Tuesday? I really want to, but I can't afford to make an extra trip down there. Especially with all of my final exams for college.

If anyone goes, I would really appreciate a PM with any info that you are willing to give up. Thanks.

[devondual]

I'll be there the 11th. I'll PM when it's done.

[clark918]

Thanks a lot man.

[FFMFS22]

PDRI is the testing firm. They have been used here in the STLFD in the past and seem to have a better passing ratio. There is NO video testing. It is in a booklet and it's at your pace. There is basic stuff that you have seen on other tests. But if you thought the FireTeam test was easy, this will be easier. They are expecting to give results by 3rd week in Jan. Do the physical nearly immediatly after the results are mailed. There will be one practice day within a week of the REAL test. There is NO CPAT. It is basic, stairs, hose, pull a chainsaw 9 times, bang a sledge on the wall, drag a dummy. They are hoping to have everything wrapped up by the end of April with hopefully immediatly commencing a class from the new list. They want to put 300-400 on a list. Usually runs 2 years. But, the 2003 list was extended until this date as they have taken the last off of the list to make one last class, while this new testing is being administered.

The meeting was 35 minutes, so be glad you didnt waste the time.
The only additional points scored (5) is for being a current city employee.

I anticipate a 50/50 pass/fail. They have not disclosed the testing wights but will be disclosed later. There will be roughly the same number as before who will test. That is why I assume you have a 50% chance of passing.

That is all.
Back to the job.

[clark918]

Thanks a lot for the info! Glad I didn't drive 6 hours for the 35 minute meeting. Few questions though for the current St Louis guys:

Is that the same test that you guys had? Seems easier than the CPAT. If it is the same, is there a score? Or is it just pass/fail?

How good are the chances of getting on if making the list of 300-400 people? How many are taken on average every year?

Also, I knew earlier that it showed no interview in the process. However, I recently saw something(I think on here, but don't have time to look right now) about interviewing the guys on this recent list before starting the academy.

Thanks again!

[brennanutt]

thanks for the info!
did they say what exactly what kind of basic stuff was going to be on the written test? b/c i know some test have more reading comp. than math or vice versa. some test have alot of personality/traits questions, and some don't have any. some test have mechanical reasoning with tool recgoniton,

thanks again
brennan

[FFMFS22]

The physical is MUCH easier than the CPAT. You get 9 minutes. It should take people who are in decent physical shape to do it in half the time. There are 3 scores for the physical, good/middle/low. There is an interview later. The scores are accumulated, this sat. test/physical/interview and then background and then the rankings are out. Obviously, the better you do on evrything, the higher you go on the rankings. Like I said, the lists are USUALLY good for 2 years. But with all of the BS going on over the past few years, the list of several hundred has just been exausted. Don't be suprised that if there are 300 on a list and they have gone through 250 people and then 2 years has come up, the list is extended to give the 50 others a chance to go through. You have to take into account that it is pretty expensive to put on a test. So the better they (the city) fair, and the longer the list is, the longer they can go before they have to purchase and execute another test(s). It was noted that there was 833 who took the test in June, 150 who applied after the fiasco and applications were opened for 2 more weeks. I forsee about the same number, if not less than 800 who attend. Thats where I got my 50/50 shot number.

The positive thing is that there will be more officer positions added over the next few years along with more promotions. With the delay of promotions, there will be more retirements over the next few years. They will put on more firefighters, to keep the OT costs down. I don't forsee any issues with getting through the entire hiring list. Just remember, not everyone on the list will take the job and not everyone who goes to the academy will pass. There are 25 who start an academy, sometimes there are as few as 10 who finish. If you make the list, Id advise that you go get your EMT license and get a head start on that.

As for the content in the test. There is NO math. It is basic comprehension. There is no mechanical aspect that I can recall, like what was included in the video test.

[clark918]

Thanks. Is St Louis's academy more difficult than most? Or is it just that some people join and have no idea what they are getting themselves into? I'm fairly confident that I could make it through the academy. I have FF1 and EMT-B. Within the next few weeks, I will of completed my FF2 and HazMat-Technician. So I will have of the certs that I would get there already.

I think that it is stupid not to have math. It's something that firefighters use. Especially if it's as basic as that last test. The mechanical part of that one seemed fine too. I really think that it was a decent test. haha

Is there a video or detailed instructions online of the PAT that anyone knows of? Just curious about the times and reps.

For some reason I feel more confident about this city than anywhere else. It's partly because of the fact that so many failed an easier test. Also because only 300-400 should be making the list.

Thanks for the info again.

[jeremy25]

hey clark ,
where are you heading down from in wisconsin? im taking off from fort atkinson. just 15 minutes north of janesville if you didnt know. im gonna go down and back saturday cause i gotta be back on the ambulance in milwaukee sunday morning.

[jeremy25]

clark,
nevermind you got an am test i got a pm. good luck

[fieldseng2]

The positive thing is that there will be more officer positions added over the next few years along with more promotions

I haven't heard of any "new" officer positions being added. I do know they are attempting to fill all the vacant ones and keep them filled. We just had another Captain promoted to Battalion Chief.

If I understood Chief Jenkerson correctly, all the proposed changes will be made with the current alloted manpower.

Is there a video or detailed instructions online of the PAT that anyone knows of? Just curious about the times and reps.


No one knows that I've talked to what physical ability test is going to be used. The one I took is like what FFMFS22 described. I would call it a modified Combat Challange with the three rankings FFMFS22 stated. I've never seen a video that shows this test.


Is St Louis's academy more difficult than most? Or is it just that some people join and have no idea what they are getting themselves into?

Academically it will be a little less stressful if you have all you're certs. If you're from out of state, check to see if your certs are IFSAC acredited. Otherwise you'll still have to take the state exams.

If you are not in prime physical conditioning you will a very tough time. The academy here is extremely physically demanding. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of pushups. Lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of running up and down the tower (8 stories) in and out of gear.

Don't sell yourself short get in shape now. Don't think for a minute you won't get canned for poor performance.

Getting the cart a little ahead of the horse here. Gotta get you guys on the list 1st. By the time they start pulling names off this next list the structure of the fire academy will not be the same as in the past 5-6 classes.

[clark918]

I'm from WI which is IFSAC. That means if I get it officially accreddited or however it works, I could skip the tests? That would be awesome if I made it to the academy. One less this to worry about.

The way everyone is talking about this chief, I am really excited for this test. Especially if it moves as fast as they said that they want it to.

jeremy... I'm going Friday. Otherwise I'd say we should carpool as well. Good luck though!

[fieldseng2]

I'm from WI which is IFSAC. That means if I get it officially accreddited or however it works, I could skip the tests? That would be awesome if I made it to the academy. One less this to worry about.


You will not have to take the state exams, but you will still have to take the daily/weekly exams for the academy. You still have to pass the academy academically.

[FFMFS22]

Unless.... I'll leave that alone.

[clark918]

Okay thanks.

[fieldseng2]

Unless.... I'll leave that alone

I hear what you are saying. Had that problem in my class big time. But, new sherriff in town. Lot's of things will be done different.

[clark918]

So I have a completely unrelated question.

I'm staying at the EconoLodge directly across the street from the Edward James Dome. The freeway runs through the middle. I went outside to get a soda at about midnight and saw a squad car pull up in the area. I walk to the balcony to take a look and like a block to the south I see about 15 squads parked. A bunch of cops were out directing traffic and stopping every car to speak with him/her. There was also a bigger command unit looking thing that said DWI. Is this something that they do on weekends to randomly look for drunk drivers? Or was something big going on? Just curious. If it wasn't so cold I'd walk downstairs and talk to one of them. haha

Also, I ordered in from St Louis Pizza & Wings again. Last time I got toasted ravioli and this time hot wings. That place alone makes me want this job. haha The wings were AWESOME.

Well good luck to those of you taking your test tomorrow. I'm really not looking forward to the 6 hour drive home if we get a lot of snow.

[truckie3]

Hey guys what did everybody think of the test? I was there Sat. AM and thought it was fairly easy. I was sitting on the fortrh row second seat from the left on the left side if you were facing the front towards the speaker's stand. Hopefully we all make it and we can meet one another at our rookie school, always think positive for us. The PAT seems like it is not as hard as some out there. And who knows about how the interviews will be. Be sure to let everbody know how you did on the test, so if we don't make it we can complain about it. Stay safe.

[clark918]

So what did everyone think about the test? I'm never sure when they have those personality questions. The one test I ever failed(my first one evere for a POC dept) was a personality test. I did pass the second time I took one though. If I did okay on that then I'm 100% sure I passed. The reading comprehension was a joke. There were 48 questions and I thought about the answer for maybe 3 of them. Seemed like a lot more people there. They said about 1000. So as long as I didn't screw up with those personality questions, I will be fine.

I have a question about the PAT though. How does the forcible entry thing work? It's a little confusing on the sheet they gave us. It's just a metal plate sitting flat on the ground?

[devondual]

I thought the best question was "Yes or No" Can you count over 50? WTF!

[truckie3]

Here we go again, people complaing about the test questions. Can't we just live with what they offered us as a test and move on to the next step of the process. To me it was a fair and honest test and if you can't count to