Rapper Firefighter?

[MalahatTwo7]

Police Union Wants Rapping Firefighter Fired. Song Includes Anti-Police Lyrics

POSTED: 7:49 pm EDT April 17, 2007

PHILADELPHIA -- An aspiring rapper who also is a firefighter in Philadelphia is really feeling the heat these days.

Police union officials are calling for Rodney Jean-Jacques to be fired for anti-police lyrics in one of his songs. The rap song includes the line: "I hope the news is taping this, 'cause I'm gonna turn pigs into bacon bits."

The head of the Fraternal Order of Police in Philly said at first he thought the song was "a mistake of the head," but now he views it as "a mistake of the heart."

In an e-mail comment to the Philadelphia Daily News, Jean-Jacques said he wants to tell his side of the story, but he can't right now.

Jean-Jacques' music received positive notice in 2005, when he wrote and performed the fire safety song "Take It Outside." It was promoted by the fire department and was shown during the broadcast of a football game between the Eagles and the Dallas Cowboys.

Survey (www.nbc4.com/entertainment/12320453/detail.html)

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press.

[Slaytallica45]

So what? Theres no law that says saying stuff about cops in a rap song is illeagle. As long as he doesn't do it while on the job/in uniform it shouldn't affect his job. Just my opinion though.

[FFFRED]

Todays 04/18/2007 Phila. Daily News Editorial

FIREFIGHTER ESCAPES THE RAP

Why is Fire Dept. so silent on Jean-Jacques?

Just what is taking the Phila. Fire Dept. so long to discipline Rodney Jean-Jacque, the rapping firefighter?

Apparenlty Jean-Jacque, aka "cal-Akbar", thinks he can have it both ways: Be a city firefighter with all the privileges and honor it brings. Then turn into the rapper "Cal Akbar", with lyrics that imply he is so tough, he'll shoot police officers ".....turn pigs into bacon bits," as he puts it.

We hate to believe Jean-Jacques really plans to unleash such a deadly fate on police officers, his comrades in arms who stare down death just a liitle more than firefighters do(I know, debatable).

But whether Jean-Jacques meant it or not, the Fire Dept. officials' silence on the matter is even more disturbing because they were not only aware of Jean-Jacques rap career, they used it to educate people on the dangers of smoking.

In 2005, the department issued an educational DVD and CD single called "Take it Outside". Rapping over beats, Jean-Jacques tells about the dangers of smoking indoors. The DVD features department personnel and equipment, and includes a "shout out" to Fire Commissioner Lloyd Ayers. Made with the departments blessing, the DVD's sponsors include respected corporations, agencies and athletes like Sunoco, Clear Channel, the Kal and Lucille Rudman Foundation, Bernard Hopkins, and the Mayor's Office of Community Service.

Now this same guy on a project they supported, is talking about killing cops. In fact, he now touts the recent controversy on his MySpace.com page, and he calls himself "Akbar - Public Enenmy #1."

Fraternal Order of Police officials want an apology from Jean-Jacques. And if they don't get that, they want him fired. This wasn't an innocent slip of the tongue. No, "if I did anyhting to offend anyone, I'm sorry" will suffice. Neither will a trip to rap rehab. This was deliberate, clearly tought-out rap from a man with a city job, in a city where 406 people, including one police officer, were killed last year. No apology can wipe out this despicable lyric. To us, a firefighters uniform stands for courage, honor and service. Jean-Jacques doesn't deserve to wear a firefighter's uniform. He should be let go to enjoy a thug life.

Why doesn't the Fire Department see this as clearly?


This is the same sh*t in a different package...bigots and criminals like Sharption and Barron who both called for the shooting of cops yet get a pass and aren't held to task for their comments but actually think they have some right to question Don Imus when he opens his mouth.

This dirt bag is a perfect example of what is wrong with this country today and were we are headed if this kind of anti-social and criminal behavior is condoned and allowed to flourish.

Calling for the killing of cops should be viewed as nothing less than unacceptable.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Fred, you're way off. I Googled this guy's lyrics and nowhere NOWHERE did he use the word "Ho". And he's talking baout cops, after all. It's not like he talked about baseketball players or anything. So back off.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Seriously, how would you guys deal with him in the firehouse?

[Slaytallica45]

You really think he should lose his job for saying "Turn pigs into bacon bits?"

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

You really think he should lose his job for saying "Turn pigs into bacon bits?"


You really don't think a fire fighter should be held to a higher standard of behavior than a street thug or a gang-banger?

[Slaytallica45]

You really don't think a fire fighter should be held to a higher standard of behavior than a street thug or a gang-banger?

I agree that it was really stupid of him to say said what he said, however, I dont think lyrics of a song are grounds for losing a job, remember freedom of speech? He should lose his job for any actions he takes which break the law, but not words.

[CaptainGonzo]

I agree that it was really stupid of him to say said what he said, however, I dont think lyrics of a song are grounds for losing a job, remember freedom of speech? He should lose his job for any actions he takes which break the law, but not words.


I guess Rodney Jean-Jacque has to make a choice... pull the CD off the shelves and be a firefighter, or turn into the rapper "Cal Akbar" full time, where he can spout his "rap crap"

Put the shoe on the other foot.. what if Cal Akbar was a rapping cop calling for people to burn the town down and turn firefighters into "crispy critters"?

You would calling for his head on a platter.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I agree that it was really stupid of him to say said what he said, however, I dont think lyrics of a song are grounds for losing a job, remember freedom of speech? He should lose his job for any actions he takes which break the law, but not words.

That's not what I asked you. And so-called freedom of speech does not extend to inflammatory and hate speech, as we found out last week.

[Slaytallica45]

That's not what I asked you. And so-called freedom of speech does not extend to inflammatory and hate speech, as we found out last week.


Ok, then fire is @$$ then, just offering my opinion.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I guess Rodney Jean-Jacque has to make a choice... pull the CD off the shelves and be a firefighter, or turn into the rapper "Cal Akbar" full time, where he can spout his "rap crap"

Put the shoe on the other foot.. what if Cal Akbar was a rapping cop calling for people to burn the town down and turn firefighters into "crispy critters"?

You would calling for his head on a platter.

These people crack me up sometime. Crybabies were out in force because the WT put a story about the worst mass murder on US soil ever over a story involving the death of a fire fighter, citing some profound "disrespect", yet see nothing wrong with a fire fighter advocating killing a police officer. Incredible.

[Catch22]

If this was one of my firefighters, he'd be gone, plain and simple. Personally, I do think it's appropriate he loose his job. Once his status as a firefighter came into play, it drew the image of the FD into question. At that point, it becomes a negative image for the department, and in my mind a negative image cannot be tolerated.

[jlcooke3]

I don't blame the FD for taking advantage of the talents of one of it's members in order to get its fire safety material out to more people. I do blame the FD for not disciplining him for advocating violence against other city employee's. Its obviously time for this guy to move on to "bigger and better things.":rolleyes:

[DrParasite]

You really don't think a fire fighter should be held to a higher standard of behavior than a street thug or a gang-banger?
Voltaire said it best: "I don't have to agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." As long as he isn't saying it while on FD property, in FD uniform, or otherwise representing the FD, he can pretty much say what he wants. I might not have to agree with it (and I don't) but that doesn't mean that his right to say it should be taken away.
That's not what I asked you. And so-called freedom of speech does not extend to inflammatory and hate speech, as we found out last week.I'm assuming you are referring to what happened to Imus, correct? apple and oranges. Imus was fired because CBS and MSNBC had sponsors pulling out of supporting their shows. They bowed to pressure from the outside in response to his comments that were made while he was on the job and acting as an employee of the respective stations. No one ever prevented his right of free speech, he was terminated because of $$$$$, since the sponsors started pulling out.

In this situation, a person, who happens to work as a firefighter, made a rap song advocating commonly accepted rap crap. he was never representing the department, nor acting as a firefighter. if he gets fired, I can guarantee a huge lawsuit for violating his constitutionally protected rights to free speech. and that is one he will win easily.

[mcaldwell]

If he stood up in front of the media and told the community to take up arms and shoot the police, he would be thrown in jail for inciting violence.

Since he (and many others) does it for "entertainment" purposes, he gets a pass.

It is a real double standard. Personally, with what I know about the US laws, I'm sure he has the right to say it. That doesn't mean it is right.



I haven't seen or heard the actual lyrics in context yet, so I won't crucify him here, but I would not want to share a firehouse with a guy who's integrity is so poor as to make a cheap buck off of the back of my brothers.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

In an artistic sense, he is exercising his freedom of speech. But, I'll say it again. Being a fire fighter is a privelege. You are expected to adhere to a higher standard of conduct. No one is objecting to the art form. They are objecting to the inciteful language he is directing at other emergency response personnel. There is no way to excuse it as "art" or free speech.

[jasper45]

Seriously, how would you guys deal with him in the firehouse?

Seriously? I can predict that he would be hands off, by everyone. The IABPFF would be there to lend a hand to any 'percieved' racism, and if there wasn't any that actually occured, they would invent something.
I know in my engine house he would become a non-person. No one would talk to him, no one would acknowledge his presence. If he were to walk into a room, everyone else would leave.
Lunch and dinner would be served, minus one setting; in fact, his meal money would be left on the table.

I've seen it done.

[DrParasite]

I never said it was right for him to be saying it.

All I said was that he shouldn't be fired for it.

[DrParasite]

btw, this higher standard of care for firefighters (and lets assume police officers too) where does the line get drawn? should both get fired for 1) calling other members of ES stupid 2) telling others that they aren't doing the job right or the more generic 3) cheating on a spouse 4) cheating on income taxes 5) speeding in their POV?

or anything else that violates the "higher standard" you seem to believe emergency responders should be held to, if they fail to meet that standard, just fire them?

as long as they don't do it while in a department uniform, then we need to remember that we are all only human.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

btw, this higher standard of care for firefighters (and lets assume police officers too) where does the line get drawn? should both get fired for 1) calling other members of ES stupid 2) telling others that they aren't doing the job right or the more generic 3) cheating on a spouse 4) cheating on income taxes 5) speeding in their POV?

or anything else that violates the "higher standard" you seem to believe emergency responders should be held to, if they fail to meet that standard, just fire them?

as long as they don't do it while in a department uniform, then we need to remember that we are all only human.

First of all, it is a higher standard of "conduct". Of the scenarios, you presented, only 4 is a crime. If an emergency service worker is convicted of tax evasion, yes, they should lose their job. Using inciteful language calling for the killing of police officers is not the same as calling a cop stupid. It's not the same as speeding and it's not the same as a dispute over the way you do your job.

But, of course, you know all that. Since you are one of the most anti-cop people on these forums, it is glaringly obvious you are trying to pick a fight. Pick away.

[FFFRED]

If a police officer had a rap song about shooting unarmed black youths...what do you think the position of the "community" leaders would be?

Answer honestly....

FTM-PTB

[EFD840]

I know in my engine house he would become a non-person. No one would talk to him, no one would acknowledge his presence. If he were to walk into a room, everyone else would leave.
Lunch and dinner would be served, minus one setting; in fact, his meal money would be left on the table.

That would be an outstanding way to handle it.

We should be held to a higher standard. Failing to meet that standard won't always rise to the level of dismissal, but things that you do off duty will certainly impact your department and thus you should be held accountable.

Openly calling for violence against fellow public safety workers is totally and completely unacceptable. It should be an offense justifying termination, if it isn't then Jasper's soultion is a good start.

[CaptainGonzo]

If a police officer had a rap song about shooting unarmed black youths...what do you think the position of the "community" leaders would be?

Answer honestly....

FTM-PTB

Right next to the unholy trinity of "Reverend" Al "Not So" Sharpton, "Reverend" Jesse "Shakedown" Jackson and Louis "Whitey is the Devil" Farrakhan, who would be calling for not only the cop to be fired, but the police chief as well.... :rolleyes:

[FFFRED]

Right next to the unholy trinity of "Reverend" Al "Not So" Sharpton, "Reverend" Jesse "Shakedown" Jackson and Louis "Whitey is the Devil" Farrakhan, who would be calling for not only the cop to be fired, but the police chief as well.... :rolleyes:

As yes...Tawana Brawley, Mr. Hymetown and Killy whitey...I wonder what they would have to say if local law enforcement was making light of shooting of unarmed blacks or perhaps the arrest of their poster boy Rodney King?

FTM-PTB

[MalahatTwo7]

Not sure about the legalities for firing him - there may be presidence for not being able to do so. However, Legal or not, it most certainly does not make for good public relations nor for good inter-department relations.

Assuming the "You're Fired" route is unavialable, administrative discipline could be an option, with a direct instruction to discontinue marketing that song (can it be called a "song"?) with a strict proviso that no further such lyricks will be tolerated. I think I would also require a very public apology to the Boys in Blue as well. We do have a obligation as members of the Public Service to conduct ourselves in a professional manner. Otherwise Jaspers idea is a good secondary option. In fact I am seeing something similar in my station with one of the probies.... nuff said there.

[DrParasite]

First of all, it is a higher standard of "conduct". Of the scenarios, you presented, only 4 is a crime. really. and here I am thinking that speeding in a POV (ie, violating the posted speed limit) is a crime. at least that's what the ticket I received said. but you are the big bad police officer, so you would know:rolleyes: and I wouldn't pick a fight with you, you really aren't worth the effort.

but as for the topic at hand, if an officer (police or fire) were in the KKK, would that be grounds for termination? what about being a member of the black panthers? or any other group that advocates supporting one race, often at the expense of another? As long it doesn't affect the job performance, what someone does in their off time, assuming it doesn't violate the law, should not be grounds for on the job punishments.Not sure about the legalities for firing him - there may be presidence for not being able to do so. However, Legal or not, it most certainly does not make for good public relations nor for good inter-department relations.not to be picky but I would hope that the boys in blue are smart enough to know that this guy does not represent the views of the rest of the department.

as for PR, its often in the eyes of the beholder. and besides, just because the public thinks something is wrong and makes a big stink doesn't always mean that it really is a big deal.... or that the men and women in uniform were wrong.

[JHR1985]

but as for the topic at hand, if an officer (police or fire) were in the KKK, would that be grounds for termination? what about being a member of the black panthers? or any other group that advocates supporting one race, often at the expense of another? As long it doesn't affect the job performance, what someone does in their off time, assuming it doesn't violate the law, should not be grounds for on the job punishments.


Dallas has a black firefighter's association but they wont allow whites in it. How do you think the black's would react if there was a white firefighter's association.


Sorry, but refering to bacon and bacon bits or whatever he says is a little bit different than songs like F--- tha Po-lice and Cop Killa.

And, regarding the last sentence.... we are upheld to a higher standard. Do you think a fire department would let someone, say, be a porn star in their part time? Hell, some in california probably do(we know that they are different) but I would say a lot would frown on it.

Anything that would draw any type of negative attention to the fire department because of a part time gig has a basis for questioning.

[DrParasite]

Do you think a fire department would let someone, say, be a porn star in their part time? if her boobs were big enough, I know I wouldn't complain. In fact, I might even say we could turn her joining into a recruitment tool ;)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

really. and here I am thinking that speeding in a POV (ie, violating the posted speed limit) is a crime. at least that's what the ticket I received said. but you are the big bad police officer, so you would know:rolleyes: and I wouldn't pick a fight with you, you really aren't worth the effort.

but as for the topic at hand, if an officer (police or fire) were in the KKK, would that be grounds for termination? what about being a member of the black panthers? or any other group that advocates supporting one race, often at the expense of another? As long it doesn't affect the job performance, what someone does in their off time, assuming it doesn't violate the law, should not be grounds for on the job punishments.not to be picky but I would hope that the boys in blue are smart enough to know that this guy does not represent the views of the rest of the department.

as for PR, its often in the eyes of the beholder. and besides, just because the public thinks something is wrong and makes a big stink doesn't always mean that it really is a big deal.... or that the men and women in uniform were wrong.

You sad, little soul...

A crime in NJ is an offense classed as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th degree crime in NJS 2C:17. Lesser offenses are called Disorderly Persons Offenses (not classified as a crime) or Petty Disorderly Persons Offenses (not classified as a crime). Traffic offenses, under NJS Title 39 are also not classified as a crime. I would not support the termination of a FF for a DP. PDP or traffic violation.

So you would classify known terrorist organizations such as the Black Panthers and the KKK as fraternal organizations supporting one race at the expense of another? What an absurd statement. I would classify them as organizations subversive to the government and I would absolutely support termination of a FF if he was a member of one of those groups. When you are sworn in, you swear to support the constitution of the state and the country. Being a member of such a group, whether or not on your own time, is not supporting the state or the country.

The Philadelphia PD undoubtedly knows that the entire PFD does not feel this way. That is not the issue. They know for sure that this one member hates them and supports killing them. That is the issue. And that one member does not deserve to wear the proud badge of the PFD.

[JHR1985]

if her boobs were big enough, I know I wouldn't complain. In fact, I might even say we could turn her joining into a recruitment tool


Sad thing is that I, along with most other FF's, would agree 100% with you.

But, if she is a good looking porn star, what is she doing being a FF? She can make a ton more being a slot machine

[tombstonE85]

The Community looks to the fire department for help, leadership, support, and expects definitely hold us to a higher standard than most. It's all about carrying a positive image for the children, teenagers and adults. With that being said once you take on the oath of a firefighter everything you do is looked under a microscope, whether you are on or off duty you are a firefighter. Regardless of how he feels about the police department he shouldn't publicly humiliate his fellow brothers in blue.

[BackstepFF]

What a disgrace! It's a crying shame we have mutts like this in our ranks; I'd feel even worse if I were on the job in Philly.
This POS should be fired for conduct unbecoming if nothing else. We firefighters are held to higher standard because we are in position of public trust . If you don't get that, you don't belong in this job.
For a firefighter to glorify murdering a police officer and blowing up his home with gas if the "po po" tried to arrest him is just beyond belief. This piece of trash is no firefighter, he represents the opposite of everything the fire service is about. Every decent, right-thinking PFD member should refuse to work with this scumbag.

[Frmboybuck]

I dont agree with what he said but he should not loose his job over it. What the hell has happened to the freedom of speech in America? I know of a cop in Jersey that went through this same thing. He was a standup commedian in his off duty time and got canned for some of his material......And Don Imus went through the same thing. Last time I checked, it was not illegal to "offend" someone. People really need to get over themselves and stop worrying about other peoples actions

[HotTrotter]

Hey, get Shrapton on the line, he will be all over it. If he can get a man fired for calling some girls nappy headed hos then this should be a piece of cake for the man :eek:

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I dont agree with what he said but he should not loose his job over it. What the hell has happened to the freedom of speech in America? I know of a cop in Jersey that went through this same thing. He was a standup commedian in his off duty time and got canned for some of his material......And Don Imus went through the same thing. Last time I checked, it was not illegal to "offend" someone. People really need to get over themselves and stop worrying about other peoples actions

I can't find the article on Google, but if I am not mistaken, didn't this cop make fun of his superiors or the town council or something like that? I'm pretty sure that he did not advocate killing anyone.

An emergency responder advocating killing anyone, no less a police officer, is plain wrong. It is a privelege to be a fire fighter. Out you go!

[Frmboybuck]

I would love to have Sharpton "on a line"......He is the biggest racist in America.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I would love to have Sharpton "on a line"......He is the biggest racist in America.

No he's not. Louis Farakhan has him by a mile.

[BackstepFF]

... Last time I checked, it was not illegal to "offend" someone. People really need to get over themselves and stop worrying about other peoples actions
A tad bit of difference between offending someone and advocating murder, wouldn't you say?

[BackstepFF]

Somehow, I knew Philadelphia and this cop killer thing rang a bell.

How much you wanna bet this "Cal Akbar" mutt has a "FREE MUMIA (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=3642)" t-shirt folded away in his closet?

[Frmboybuck]

Still freedom of speech and he still should not loose his job. There was no direct threat. I dont agree with what he or 99.9% of rappers and hip-hop artists say but they have a RIGHT to say it

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Still freedom of speech and he still should not loose his job. There was no direct threat. I dont agree with what he or 99.9% of rappers and hip-hop artists say but they have a RIGHT to say it

Nobody is questioning his right to say it. He does not have a right to be a fire fighter if he advocates killing cops.

[Frmboybuck]

So you want to take away his freedom of speech??? You are contradicting yourself

[jasper45]

You have the right to free speach, and no one is taking that away from him. What you do NOT have is the right to be a firefighter.
There is nothing in the constitution that says you have the right to be a firefighter.

There is no contradiction.

[Frmboybuck]

But he is a firefighter and he EARNED that right to be one or he wouldnt have been hired. You guys want to take that away from him because of something he said? This is what he does in his spare time and more than likely dosent reflect his actual views. Its a song.....Get over it

[jasper45]

But he is a firefighter and he EARNED that right to be one or he wouldnt have been hired.

So what? Who cares? People are hired all of the time, and people lose this job all of the time for doing stupid things. What you do on your off-duty time can affect your job, just like every other job out there.

This is what he does in his spare time and more than likely dosent reflect his actual views. Its a song.

Again, so what? What you do on your off time can and does affect your work life. Guys I work with have been fired for DUI’s off-duty. It happens. You can’t condone the killing of police, nor can he talk/rap about it. He is wrong here, plain and simple, and so are you.
I certainly would never want to work with this piece of sh*t.

[Frmboybuck]

I wouldnt want to work with him either but thats not my call, nor is it yours. You shouldnt be calling for his firing as you know NOTHING about him. It is the decision of his superior officers, not ours

[RESERVEFORNOW]

Ah yes Farmboy, but if they couldn't armchair quarterback, what else would you have them do on this forum? :cool:

[t0asty]

Just my two cents. Should I not be allowed to become a firefighter because I have played Grand Theft Auto, Counter strike source and killed who knows how many virtual people?

[scfire86]

Nobody is questioning his right to say it. He does not have a right to be a fire fighter if he advocates killing cops.
What part of his conditions of employment state this? If there is none, your point is moot.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I wouldnt want to work with him either but thats not my call, nor is it yours. You shouldnt be calling for his firing as you know NOTHING about him. It is the decision of his superior officers, not ours

Know nothing about him? Not his views?

HE WROTE THE SONGS! HE SINGS (TERM USED LOOSELY) THE SONGS! HE ADVOCATES KILLING COPS!

What are you,, blind?

[RESERVEFORNOW]

I see both sides on this one. Just to look at it from a different angle, what if instead of being a "musician" he chose pornography as his outlet? (Please avoid the temptation of debated soft vs hardcore for this question. Because Firefighters are to be held to a higher standard would this too constitute a violation of that standard? True it is perhaps a different faction of society that condones or supports these two concepts, (rap and porn...hmmm maybe not) but based on the arguments that many have here, he should be dismissed for this behavior as well, right?

The thing is this. morally, yes, you may want to blackball or cold shoulder this individual for his off duty actions. You may want to let PPD make it known who he is and where he works and lives etc., if they don't already. As many others have stated here however, this individual has not broken any laws or done anything which would constitute grounds for dismissal. Even if he is offensive to most if not all of his coworkers and all of law enforcement, he is lawfully covered by the first ammendment to do what he is doing.

Either way, I'm sure he has a tough road ahead of him if Fd and PD on the streets take as much offense to him as the ones here do.

[MalahatTwo7]

I have to agree with George here. Not sure about anyone else here, but when I signed on with my current Dept, the words (not to engage in) "conduct that could be injurious to the Department..." were said. Initially I thought it was rather odd to go through an actual swearing ceremony for a fire department, but now that I've seen it with the new members since my swearing in, I think its a great idea.

The main point here is I suspect that Cal-Akbar or whatever he wants to call himself did the same....? I see his lyrics as being inappropriate, if they are as reported. Apparently he was doing good things. Too bad he had to do something dumb like this. :(

[Nine3Probie]

Y'all are just hatin' on Rodney Jean-Jaques because he's French!! :rolleyes:

Seriously...I would hope something such as this (a civil servant advocating the killing of other civil servants) would fall under some type of "Conduct Unbecoming" clause as part of the Union contract/CBA with the city. Of course, he's entitled to due process...give him a hearing THEN fire his ass.

Apparently the FOP gave him a deadline to issue and explanation/apology. He was silent.

BTW...this MUTT, as I understand it, has been REVELING in the publicity on his MySpace page. Going so far as to proclaim himself "Public Enemy #1" and posting a pic of the headline from the newspaper. Quite the remorseful soul, that one. (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.view profile&friendID=4728070)

And, as of last report, while 3rd & Spring Garden "investigates," this MUTT is on PAID LEAVE!!

[scfire86]

I'll ask again. What part of his conditions of employment under the city's MOU with his bargaining unit is he violating?

That is why MOU's are written so that arbitrary judges of good taste can't fire someone because they don't like them or their habits.

Norm has taken it upon himself to be the taste police.

Where is it written you have to like or approve of what your co-workers do off duty? Unless he is doing this on duty or breaking the law it is an exercise in mental masturbation.

[jasper45]

Not sure about anyone else here, but when I signed on with my current Dept, the words (not to engage in) "conduct that could be injurious to the Department..."

I did, as well. This is also a little catchall clause that gives a little bit of room for a department’s administration to work with.
No one is taking free speech away from this guy. I haven’t seen anyone post anything even remotely close to such. The fact remains though; that your off duty conduct can affect your job as a firefighter.
There was a computer incident in my department, involving members off-duty that resulted in several being fired. They did nothing criminal, either. I have also seen members who were fired for off-duty drunk driving.

Should this guy be fired? My opinion is yes, but it is up to the department’s admin. Either way the department needs to take a strong stand on this. This guy is a dirt bag, and he isn’t someone I want on a company with me. As has been shown in previous posts, he is viewing this as PR stunt, as a way to promote his ‘music’. His bad taste could get a police officer killed.

He probably could have made all of this go away had he just made a sincere apology.

[Nine3Probie]

Taken from a forum frequented by PFD members:

DIRECTIVE 25:

4.4.1 VIOLATION: CONDUCT UNBECOMING A MEMBER

SPECIFICATION:

1:10- Granting, approving or countenancing the use of his/her name to any person, firm or corporation for the purpose of influencing the sale of any goods, merchandise, commodities, real estate, stocks or bonds, without first receiving the written approval of the Fire Commissioner or representing oneself as an officer/member of the Philadelphia Fire Department for the purpose of influencing such actions.

There's a whole series of question that come up because of that...but I'll leave that to others to debate.

[scfire86]

Taken from a forum frequented by PFD members:



There's a whole series of question that come up because of that...but I'll leave that to others to debate.
If he is using his status as a firefighter with the PFD using official markings as a sales hook, I think he's going to need a good lawyer.

I'm sure there are some ugly episodes ahead for both parties.

[BackstepFF]

George and Jasper are 100% right. There is no constitutional guarantee of the right to be a firefighter or to be retained as a Firefighter if you bring discredit on the department; you CAN be fired for just cause after due process.
But he is a firefighter and he EARNED that right to be one or he wouldnt have been hired. You guys want to take that away from him because of something he said? This is what he does in his spare time and more than likely dosent reflect his actual views. Its a song.....Get over it
How anyone can be so naïve as to think it’s “just a song,” when the words contained in the “song” are clearly inciteful and provoke violence, is beyond me.

Does the First Amendment mean anyone can say anything at any time? NO.
The Supreme Court has rejected an interpretation of speech without limits.
There are some general tests that help in determining when speech should be limited, one of these tests is Clear and Present Danger -- Will this act of speech create a dangerous situation? The First Amendment does not protect statements that are uttered to provoke violence or incite illegal action.

In addition to promising, "I got a surprise for them cops," as gunfire erupts in the background during the song, Jean-Jacques, AKA "Cal Akbar," also details how he would use a stove to trigger an explosion if authorities rushed into his house. Wow. That’s got to make you feel good knowing that a so-called “brother” firefighter has such a high regard for the safety and welfare of his fellow firefighters, not to mention the innocent citizens who could be killed in such an event.

Fire this POS now before he drags down the reputation of a great department and a noble profession any further!

[BackstepFF]

Still freedom of speech and he still should not loose his job. There was no direct threat. I dont agree with what he or 99.9% of rappers and hip-hop artists say but they have a RIGHT to say it

You just don't get do you?

If this was Snoop Dog, Ice-T, R Kelly or some other garden variety rapper there probably wouldn't be as much of an issue (although the speech would be just as despicable.) Our society has come to expect that from these parasitical, self-destructive morons. But we are talking about a Firefighter who is in a unique position of trust in the community and who raised his right hand and swore an oath to save lives and property and to generally contribute to the good of the community. Not only that, but he agreed to be governed by the rules and regulations of the Philadelphia Fire Department as well as the personnel laws of the City of Philadelphia.

Is it starting to sink in now?

[Nine3Probie]

From today's Philadelphia Inquirer:

Firefighter who called police 'pigs' in rap is put on leave
By Robert Moran
Inquirer Staff Writer

A Philadelphia firefighter who called police "pigs" and threatened to turn them into "bacon bits" in a rap song has been placed on administrative leave pending an internal investigation, a Fire Department official said yesterday.
Rodney Jean-Jacques, 30, who performs as Cal Akbar, drew condemnation from police and fire officials after police officers revealed the lyrics on an Internet bulletin board April 10.

Executive Chief Daniel A. Williams confirmed that Jean-Jacques has been removed from his duties at Engine Company 9 in Mount Airy. Williams declined to comment further.

Robert V. Eddis, president of Local 5 of the Fraternal Order of Police, has demanded that Jean-Jacques be fired.

Jean-Jacques did not respond yesterday to a message left at his mother's house.

Jean-Jacques performed a rap song in a fire-safety video for the Fire Department in 2005. The video credits list him by his real name and as Cal Akbar.

On his MySpace page, Jean-Jacques - identifying himself as Akbar - calls himself "Public Enemy #1." The page features a photo of him that appeared on the front page of the Philadelphia Daily News on Saturday and urges visitors to "download the controversial song."

Under interests, he lists:

"Rapping, reading, writing, weight lifting, shop lifting, gettin money, spendin money, the internet, photography, drinking cognac, handguns, assualt rifles, driving fast, sex, and any activity that I can get an adreneline rush from."

He lists his label as Larsiny Records and has a bio at www.larsinyrecords.com that explains that he began rapping in the ninth grade as Kid Caliber. He later named himself Cal (for caliber) Akbar (Arabic for great).

He is quoted as saying his influences are "life itself . . . things I read, things I see, life experiences . . . all of that inspires me."

The bio proclaims: "When you hear Cal Akbar's thunderous voice, you know a storm is coming, so you'd better take shelter."

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Next step-out the door.

Of course he will probably sue the city and, in the process, get all kinds of publicity for himself. Can the Al and Jesse Express be far behind?

[Nine3Probie]

Next step-out the door.

Of course he will probably sue the city and, in the process, get all kinds of publicity for himself. Can the Al and Jesse Express be far behind?

Out the door would be nice...for the whole Administration would be nicer.

Already has all kinds of publicity...front page of the Daily Rag. Apparently the video has been on YouTube for a week or two. Heck...even being discussed right here on FH. It's not a racial issue, either. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that way. Black commissioner, mayor, firefighter/rapper...talking about Cops in general (I believe PPD is 40% black as well).

I can't wait to see how Al & Jesse try to spin it...if they are dumb enough to get involved.

Then this MUTT will get his job back...with back pay. It's happened before in Philly.

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

Question.....his bio says that he signed with Ruff Ryder's after the Army which came after high school...I'm failing to see where PFD fits into all this. I guess something didn't work out with that which should have told him something.

[scfire86]

George and Jasper are 100% right. There is no constitutional guarantee of the right to be a firefighter or to be retained as a Firefighter if you bring discredit on the department; you CAN be fired for just cause after due process.

I agree with this 100%. Due process is the operative phrase. If he is using his FD's image in his act, he's got a problem. But if he isn't, then it is an individual doing this in his private life. Which is none of our's or anyone'e business.

[DrParasite]

Next step-out the door.

Of course he will probably sue the city and, in the process, get all kinds of publicity for himself. Can the Al and Jesse Express be far behind?and he should win, and rightfully so. He will end up being terminated for something he says, while off duty, with no connection to the fire department at all. As far as I can tell, he hasn't broken any laws (and if he has, what he says numerous other rappers say the same thing on a regular basis, so it would be selective enforcement), and he hasn't caused insult to the PFD; the only reason PFD is involved is because they happen to be his daytime employer.

In case anyone missed it, the reason some of us aren't calling for his immediate termination is not because we find what he is saying acceptable; rather, just because he is a firefighter doesn't mean he gives up any rights, and that includes free speech.

Just popped into my head, wasn't there a lawsuit/complaint about firefighters keeping porn magazines in the firehouse, and one senior person on there forums (I think it was FFFred, but it could have been one of our west coast brothers) who said, and i'm paraphrasing, "Just because you join a FD, doesn't mean you give up your civil rights once you walk in the door." and the firefighter won the lawsuit in that case. I think this is a similar concept.

Does anyone else see a potential problem if he is fired? and that his firing is upheld? That means you can be fired for saying something that isn't illegal, only unpopular in the eyes of certain people. SO, does that mean a FF or Union Spokeperson can be fired for supporting the losing candidate? or the head of the union gets fired for saying the FD isn't giving the men the proper equipment to do their jobs safely? or maybe an officer can be terminated for saying the cops screwed up at a scene; not on camera, or in dept uniform, but if it's overheard in a bar while he is talking to his buddies. or if a FF says "we shouldn't be doing these damn EMS runs, lets those EMS weenies handle them." I mean, the EMS people would be extremely offended.

I don't agree with what he says, but I'll be damned if anyone says he doesn't have the right to say it.

[GodSendRain]

This kind of reminds me of the off-duty cigarette smoking debate.

I guess since I supported the smokers back then, I can't really say anything about this guy expressing himself. But I do think the inherent responsibilities that come with having freedom of speech got overlooked by this guy somewhere down the line.

[Remthedays]

The concern I have after reading his "Interests" is, Handguns, Assault Rifles, Shop Lifting, and getting the Adreneline Rush. On top of this rapping and advertising about killing cops. I think this young man needs an up-dated physcilogical (sp) exam. I know if I was his Chief he would get one.

And, yes he does have his right to free speech untill it crosses the line and asks other young people to do the same thing that he is saying or "Rapping" about. People blame, vidieo games, movies and even hard music for our young children behaving the way they do. Parents do have a responcability in raising thier children but some times it does not work. And it does not take much to push some of them over the edge.

What do you think would happen if it was a Baseball player, NASCAR driver, etc....that came out with a song like this. Yep, they would probably be looking for work. So Akbar Rap away but find a new day jig...

T.J.

[BackstepFF]

Parasite: WRONG
scfire86: WRONG

The books are full of cases where firefighters were terminated for their off-duty misadventures. Case in point: (anyone remember this?)

During the 1998 Labor Day Parade in the Broad Channel neighborhood of Queens, New York, off-duty public safety employees sought to win the funniest float category with a float titled “Black to the Future.” The white employees painted their faces black, wore wigs made of mops, and decorated the float with watermelons and Kentucky Fried chicken cartons. Twice during the parade, one of the firefighters re-enacted the lynching of African-American James Byrd in Texas – one of the worst hate crimes in the past decade.

The City of New York fired the three public safety employees who participated in this overtly racist conduct. The employees challenged their termination on First Amendment grounds. In June of 2003, the Southern District of New York, in an opinion issued by Judge D.J. Sprizzo, ruled in favor of the employees. See Locurto v. Giuliani, 269 F. Supp. 2d 368 (S.D.N.Y. 2003). The Second Circuit reversed and ordered judgment in favor of New York City. The court held that “defendants’ (City of New York) interest in maintaining a relationship of trust between the police and fire departments and the communities they serve outweighed the plaintiffs’ (police officer and firefighters) expressive interests in this case.” Locurto v. Giuliani, 04-6840, slip opinion, p. 40 (April 27, 2006)

The Second Circuit overturned the Southern District of New York and ruled that former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani acted appropriately when he terminated one police officer and two firefighters who engaged in off-duty racially offensive behavior. The Second Circuit echoed the position of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law (“Lawyers’ Committee”) who, along with five other civil rights, fire fighter, and police officer advocacy groups, filed an amicus brief on behalf of New York City, arguing that substantial disruption can result from off-duty, racist conduct by public safety officials.

Joining the Lawyers’ Committee brief were the National Black Police Association, National Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers, NAACP, National Asian Pacific Legal Consortium, and the International Association of Black Firefighters. On appeal, these organizations stressed that a police officer and firefighter’s racist conduct while off-duty can seriously impair their authority and legitimacy while on-duty, including the alienation and distrust that these acts engender in minority communities.

Ultimately, the Second Circuit noted that “the First Amendment does not require a Government employer to sit idly by while its employees insult those they are hired to protect.” Locurto v. Giuliani, 04-6840, slip opinion, p. 40 (April 27, 2006).

In reaction to this recent ruling, Chief Counsel and Senior Deputy Director of the Lawyers’ Committee, John Brittain, said: “The decision is a reasonable balance between First Amendment free expression interests and a city’s right to avoid disruption to the community by disciplining public safety officers for using hate speech.” Gibson Dunn partner Mitch Karlan, who served as counsel of record for the brief, added: “Our ultimate goal is to ensure positive relationships between public safety officials and minority communities.”

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I would expect nothing less from one the of biggest cop-haters on this forum. Cop killing just kind of goes alsong with your way of thinking, huh?

The flaw in your argument is that he did, indeed, represent the PFD-very publicly, when he cut the rap song for the PSA and was clearly a PFD member.

I couldn't care less what he lists as his interests. I also don't want to stifle his right to free speech. He has the right to say reprehensible stuff. But the courts have, in the past, upheld cases where work rules were established. It has also been posted that there are PFD regulations that may cover this situation.

Sorry, but the hero of the cop hating fire fighters is probably going to go down.

[Bones42]

represent the PFD-very publicly, when he cut the rap song for the PSA and was clearly a PFD member. as he was requested to by the PFD.

It has also been posted that there are PFD regulations that may cover this situation. Then there should be no arguement.


IMO, having not read the lyrics, I can't and don't need to make a judgement.

[Remthedays]

George the reason I mentioned his interests up was that he may need, 1-some kind of help, 2- Shows possible signs of mental stability (Might actually do the things he says), 3-Possible threat to PD officers, maybe even his own officers if they voice their opinion about this song.

T.J.

[scfire86]

Parasite: WRONG
scfire86: WRONG

Backstepff. This is why we have courts. To sorts these issues about in a rational manner where both sides can be heard. Like I said earlier. "Due Process" is the operative phrase.

I would expect nothing less from one the of biggest cop-haters on this forum. Cop killing just kind of goes alsong with your way of thinking, huh?

Can someone tell me who Norm is babbling about here? Being the law enforcement champion, certainly he understands the individual has rights that are not determined by him or the others on this board.

[BackstepFF]

George the reason I mentioned his interests up was that he may need, 1-some kind of help, 2- Shows possible signs of mental stability (Might actually do the things he says), 3-Possible threat to PD officers, maybe even his own officers if they voice their opinion about this song.

T.J.
In the unfortunate event that, for some reason, he manages to hold on to his job (unlikely, but you never know) the city would be absolutely out of their tree if they didn't order him to undergo a comprehensive psychological evaluation.

His profile where he describes his interests as cognac, shoplifting, handguns, assault weapons, high speed driving (among other things) combined with the hate filled lyrics in his "controversial song" have all the hallmarks of an unstable individual. The word sociopath comes to mind but then, I'm a fireman not a psychiatrist. Until he was given a clean bill of health by a shrink, I would refuse to work with him or near him on the grounds that I would fear for my life. He might perceive me as an authority figure and bust a cap or two in me.

Much has been made of the signs given off by the shooter in the Virginia Tech tragedy prior to his mass murdering spree and the fact that he seemed to slip through the cracks. The PFD must realize that they have an obligation to protect the public and that they even have an obligation to this guy to get him the assistance he may very well need.

[BackstepFF]

Backstepff. This is why we have courts. To sorts these issues about in a rational manner where both sides can be heard. Like I said earlier. "Due Process" is the operative phrase.
I was responding to the part of your previous post where you stated:
But if he isn't, then it is an individual doing this in his private life. Which is none of our's or anyone'e business.
That is where you were wrong, as the case law example that I referenced illustrates.

[scfire86]

That is where you were wrong, as the case law example that I referenced illustrates.
Copy that. Thanks for the clarification.

[jasper45]

Due process is the operative phrase. If he is using his FD's image in his act, he's got a problem. But if he isn't, then it is an individual doing this in his private life. Which is none of our's or anyone'e business.


Absolutely.
However, even if he isn't using his department's name, or logo's, it has become apparent that he is a firefighter, and now that has stirred quite the controversy.
I also agree that private life is private life, but he didn't keep this in his private life. He has made his lyrics and music available to virtually every person in the world. It is only private when you keep something private. Because he chose to make his music public, and published his actions on youtube, this is no longer an issue kept in private.
His department should address his actions publicly, and quickly. It is my opinion that anyone who advocates killing cops is not fit for public trust.

To me, this is where the issue changed, and that was when he decided to make his music available to the public, and published it on the internet. This is no longer a privacy issue, but a very public one. It was made public by the 'artist' himself.

[scfire86]

To me, this is where the issue changed, and that was when he decided to make his music available to the public, and published it on the internet. This is no longer a privacy issue, but a very public one. It was made public by the 'artist' himself.
Welllll......send the crow to CA. That is a good point.

[CaptainGonzo]

Absolutely.
However, even if he isn't using his department's name, or logo's, it has become apparent that he is a firefighter, and now that has stirred quite the controversy.
I also agree that private life is private life, but he didn't keep this in his private life. He has made his lyrics and music available to virtually every person in the world. It is only private when you keep something private. Because he chose to make his music public, and published his actions on youtube, this is no longer an issue kept in private.
His department should address his actions publicly, and quickly. It is my opinion that anyone who advocates killing cops is not fit for public trust.

To me, this is where the issue changed, and that was when he decided to make his music available to the public, and published it on the internet. This is no longer a privacy issue, but a very public one. It was made public by the 'artist' himself.

Could he be related to Alderman McMutt? :rolleyes:

[jasper45]

Could he be related to Alderman McMutt? :rolleyes:

If they're not related by blood, they certainly share the same mind set.
Both are mutts in the worst way.

[BFDNJFF]

IMO its just music. Dumb yes but music is all it is. He obviously is trying to attract a certain type of fan base. Not for nothing I have seen many anti cop remarks on here and I am sure non of them lost there job. I am in no way supporting what he said but just being realistic.

[emt161]

He obviously is trying to attract a certain type of fan base.

Yep. Scumbags.

[Nine3Probie]

Suspended with intent to dismiss.

Firefighter suspended for rap lyrics and firing likely
By Nancy Petersen
Inquirer Staff Writer

The moonlighting Philadelphia firefighter whose rap lyrics about turning "pigs into bacon bits" enraged both the Police and Fire Departments has been suspended from his job and will likely be dismissed.

Philadelphia Fire Commissioner Lloyd Ayers said in a terse statement that the suspension of Rodney Jean-Jacques with intent to dismiss went into effect yesterday at 2:15 p.m.

"Commissioner Ayers deeply regrets that anyone was offended by the lyrics, especially our important 1st responder partners, members of the Philadelphia Police Department," the statement said. The department declined any further comment.

Jean-Jacques, a member of Engine Company 9 in Mount Airy and a four-year veteran, could not be reached for comment yesterday.

The suspension followed a departmental investigation after the incendiary lyrics penned by Jean-Jacques, who raps under the name Cal Akbar, came to light last month.

In one of the pieces, Jean-Jacques, sings: "I got a surprise for them cops. I hope the news is taping this, 'cause I'm gonna turn those pigs into bacon bits." Gunfire can be heard in the background.

The Fraternal Order of Police called for an immediate apology and for Jean-Jacques to be fired.

His own union, Philadelphia Fire Fighters Union Local 22, called the matter a "disgrace."

Robert V. Eddis, president of Lodge 5 of the Fraternal Order of Police, said, "First of all, I commend the fire commissioner for taking the action that he did.

"This is something where a simple apology could've gone a long way," Eddis said, adding that as a union officer he never wants to see anyone fired. "It's sad that it had to end this way."

Brian McBride, president of the firefighters union, said he had no comment.

In an earlier statement McBride said that it was "irresponsible and unconscionable to advocate harm to the very men and women who are prepared to do, and do, sacrifice themselves every day to protect our city."

The name Cal Akbar is drawn from two languages: Cal comes from caliber, and Akbar means great in Arabic, according to the Web site of Larsiny Records, which is the label for which Jean-Jacques records.

Jean-Jacques' suspension follows a departmental investigation into the matter that came to light April 10 on a police Internet bulletin board. Sources said he remained on the city payroll during the investigation.

But his moonlighting career hasn't always generated this amount of controversy.

In 2005, a song he wrote and performed called, "Take It Outside," became part of a national fire-safety campaign. It was also broadcast during a football game between the Eagles and the Cowboys.

[BFDNJFF]

Fire him and wait for the large lawsuit that he will win. So what do we get out of this a waste of tax payers money on a scumbag.

[GodSendRain]

Fire him and wait for the large lawsuit that he will win. So what do we get out of this a waste of tax payers money on a scumbag.

Not hire him in the first place. Too late for that though, he probably thought way ahead of us in terms of lawsuits. He's probably already got his Yacht picked out, if you know what I mean.

[BackstepFF]

Firefighter suspended for rap lyrics and firing likely
By Nancy Petersen
Philadelphia Inquirer Staff Writer
The moonlighting Philadelphia firefighter whose rap lyrics about turning "pigs into bacon bits" enraged both the Police and Fire Departments has been suspended from his job and will likely be dismissed.
Philadelphia Fire Commissioner Lloyd Ayers said in a terse statement that the suspension of Rodney Jean-Jacques with intent to dismiss went into effect yesterday at 2:15 p.m.
Good riddance to bad rubbish!
Don't let the screen door hit you where the good Lord split you, "Cal".
This restores my faith in the system, I just hope they dot all the i's and cross the t's so he doesn't get back in on some BS appeal.

[lutan1]

You really think he should lose his job for saying "Turn pigs into bacon bits?"

Maybe it wasn't aimed at Police- he could be on some "anti-vegetarian diet" campaign....:rolleyes:

Seriously though, if this doesn't impact on him doing his day to day job, then I don't really see the issue.

[DrParasite]

Fire him and wait for the large lawsuit that he will win. So what do we get out of this a waste of tax payers money on a scumbag.yay, finally someone gets it!!!!
Seriously though, if this doesn't impact on him doing his day to day job, then I don't really see the issue.that's going to be the underlying cause of the suit.

if he is still doing his job, then there are no grounds to fire him.

if the cops can't/won't work with him, that's their problem for being unprofessional. if his fellow firefighters can't/won't work with him, that's their problem for being unprofessional. THEY should be disciplined because their on the job activities are not living up to departmental standards. and before someone mentions DUIs and other off duty stuff you can be fired for, to the best of my knowledge those stuff you are told about before the "incident" takes place. not after. and firing someone for something they say in their off hours is, to the best of my knowledge, a violation of their freedom of speech.

and no, I don't agree with anything he is saying, but legally I think he has the right to say it.

[FDAIC485]

I guess you can just call him just a rapper now.

[AZLawDawg]

I don't agree with what he was saying one bit, but then again, he wasn't acting in any official capacity, he was off-duty and on his own time, big whoop. All of this controversy is doing one thing, giving him more publicity - which is what he wants. Ignore him, he'll go away.

[FWDbuff]

yay, finally someone gets it!!!!


Dr- according to the US Constitution, he does have the right. According to the rules and regulations of the Charter of the City of Philadelphia and the Personnel Policies of the Philadelphia Fire Department, he does not.

2 words-

Conduct Unbecoming.

[DrParasite]

Dr- according to the US Constitution, he does have the right. According to the rules and regulations of the Charter of the City of Philadelphia and the Personnel Policies of the Philadelphia Fire Department, he does not.and which do you think a court will find holds more weight? something that is written in the US constitution/bill of rights, something that is guaranteed to apply to all people in the united states, or local policies of a city? keep in mind, just because you work for the city, doesn't mean you give up your civil rights.
2 words-
Conduct Unbecoming.You know, people throw these words around a lot. and I am going to admit, that I don't know much about what defines "conduct unbecoming." I mean, is there a definition in the FD or city rules that states exactly what conduct unbecoming is? or is it a catch all the city uses to get rid of people who they don't believe help the city's image?

like when the union leader tells the public that the city is screwing the men?

or when the chief says the city needs to give him more money so he can properly equip his men with the best equipment?

or when the union supports the wrong candidate during election year?

yes, those would all fall under free speech, but the city might not look favorably on them. Could (not would, but COULD) those people be eliminated because of "conduct unbecoming" charges?

[MalahatTwo7]

DrP, we just signed on 6 new people to the FD as probies. During the swearing in (I wrote this earlier)

"....(conduct) that is injurious to the department..."

I think that if a station has a statement like that in their swearing in ceremony, that about sums up the question of conduct unbecoming.

[FWDbuff]

and which do you think a court will find holds more weight? something that is written in the US constitution/bill of rights, something that is guaranteed to apply to all people in the united states, or local policies of a city? keep in mind, just because you work for the city, doesn't mean you give up your civil rights.

Here's a little research project for you: Research the City of Philadelphia's Home Charter Rule.

-Tell me how the City of Philadelphia can mandate that all Municipal Emplyees must reside within the City Limits? Isn't it a constitutional right to live wherever you want? Or is it a City Regulation that you MUST abide by, or you get fired, plain and simple?

-How many civil suits have been brought against the City of Philadelphia, charging that the Home Charter Rule is indeed a violation of constitutional and civil rights? How many Courts have established that is is not?

-Ask any Philadelphia Firefighter who wants to move out to Bucks, Montgomery, or Delaware Couties (or god forbid cross the river into Joizey) about which court found which had more weight- The City or the Constitution and Bill of Rights???????

Conduct Unbecoming: While I do not know the specific wordings of the Philadelphia Fire Department's personnel policies currently in place, I do know there are prescribed definitions, standards and expectations that all firefighters and officers are expected to adhere to. The PFD has always prided in claiming to be a "paramilitary" organization, therefore I would imagine that their definition og Conduct Unbecoming is probably pretty close to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Here is an excerpt of an explanation of CU as defined by the UCMJ:

(1) Gentleman. As used in this article, “gentleman” includes both male and female commissioned officers, cadets, and midshipmen.

(2) Nature of offense. Conduct violative of this article is action or behavior in an official capacity which, in dishonoring or disgracing the person as an officer, seriously compromises the officer’s character as a gentleman, or action or behavior in an unofficial or private capacity which, in dishonoring or disgracing the officer personally, seriously compromises the person’s standing as an officer.

There are certain moral attributes common to the ideal officer and the perfect gentleman, a lack of which is indicated by acts of dishonesty, unfair dealing, indecency, indecorum, lawlessness, injustice, or cruelty. Not everyone is or can be expected to meet unrealistically high moral standards, but there is a limit of tolerance based on customs of the service and military necessity below which the personal standards of an officer, cadet, or midshipman cannot fall without seriously compromising the person’s standing as an officer, cadet, or midshipman or the person’s character as a gentleman. This article prohibits conduct by a commissioned officer, cadet or midshipman which, taking all the circumstances into consideration, is thus compromising. This article includes acts made punishable by any other article, provided these acts amount to conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman. Thus, a commissioned officer who steals property violates both this article and Article 121. Whenever the offense charged is the same as a specific offense set forth in this Manual, the elements of proof are the same as those set forth in the paragraph which treats that specific offense, with the additional requirement that the act or omission constitutes conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman.

(3) Examples of offenses. Instances of violation of this article include knowingly making a false official statement; dishonorable failure to pay a debt; cheating on an exam; opening and reading a letter of another without authority; using insulting or defamatory language to another officer in that officer’s presence or about that officer to other military persons; being drunk and disorderly in a public place; public association with known prostitutes; committing or attempting to commit a crime involving moral turpitude; and failing without good cause to support the officer’s family.

Oh, I almost forgot......What about the fact that the policies, procedures, rules & regs were in place prior to the scumbag getting hired? He didnt have to take the job. He was very well aware of these policies, yet he chose to take the oath of Philadelphia Firefighter, and he also chose to violate his oath.

One more thing to chew on- what about all these Fire Departments that are now choosing to forbid the use of tobacco products on or off duty? What about all the court decisions rendering those departments not guilty of violation of rights?

[FWDbuff]

.........bump

[DeputyMarshal]

I've of the opinion that Philly screwed up and dismissing this guy is going to cost them money.

Since you bumped it...

-Tell me how the City of Philadelphia can mandate that all Municipal Emplyees must reside within the City Limits? Isn't it a constitutional right to live wherever you want?

I don't seem to recall that passage. Citation, please?

-How many civil suits have been brought against the City of Philadelphia, charging that the Home Charter Rule is indeed a violation of constitutional and civil rights?

I don't know. Do we know if it's been serioulsy challenged on 1st Amendment grounds before?

-Ask any Philadelphia Firefighter who wants to move out to Bucks, Montgomery, or Delaware Couties (or god forbid cross the river into Joizey) about which court found which had more weight- The City or the Constitution and Bill of Rights???????

Which Amemndment in the Bill of Rights are you referring to? None come to mind that prevent a government employer for establishing residency requirements.

-Conduct Unbecoming: While I do not know the specific wordings of the Philadelphia Fire Department's personnel policies currently in place, I do know there are prescribed definitions, standards and expectations that all firefighters and officers are expected to adhere to.

Neither do I. I do know that that Constitutional Law takes precedence over City regulations and, in this case, there appears to be a clear conflict between the two. Firing someone over legally permissible artistic speech made while off-duty certainly looks like a clear infringement on his 1st Amendment rights. No doubt the lawyers will all make a good chunk of change on this one win or lose.

The PFD has always prided in claiming to be a "paramilitary" organization, therefore I would imagine that their definition og Conduct Unbecoming is probably pretty close to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

They can self-identify themselves as being "paramilitray" all they want but it doesn't relieve them from Constitutional Law. Members of the military don't have the same rights as civilians and civilians aren't subject to the UCMJ. Period.

Oh, I almost forgot......What about the fact that the policies, procedures, rules & regs were in place prior to the scumbag getting hired?

So was the Constitution. If they're found to be in conflict, it doesn't matter when the policies were written.

he also chose to violate his oath.

What are the odds that said oath included a p[assage about support ing the law in general and, quite possibly, the Constitution in particular? The "oath" is secondary to law. If there is a conflict, that part of the oath is invalid.

One more thing to chew on- what about all these Fire Departments that are now choosing to forbid the use of tobacco products on or off duty?

Most often those are negotiated agreements. Either way, I don't recall seeing anything in the Constitution prohibting the government from regulating drug use. Do you?

[jasper45]

-Tell me how the City of Philadelphia can mandate that all Municipal Emplyees must reside within the City Limits? Isn't it a constitutional right to live wherever you want? Or is it a City Regulation that you MUST abide by, or you get fired, plain and simple?


I can’t speak for Philadelphia, because I don’t live there. What I can do though, is speak from experience here in my own city, as we have our own strictly enforced residency policy. Our policy is also in place because of our own city charter.
You’re right, you can live anywhere you want to under the whole life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness aspect, but what you don’t have is a constitutional right to be a firefighter, or work for Philly, or work for my city. Working for any of these organizations is a choice made by each member who takes the job. These residency policies were also in place long before I even dreamed of taking this job, so each member who took the job knew about the rule before applying. It is not a requirement to live in the city, because you are free to go and work wherever you want.

-How many civil suits have been brought against the City of Philadelphia, charging that the Home Charter Rule is indeed a violation of constitutional and civil rights? How many Courts have established that is is not?

Again, I don’t know about Philly, but here in my own city the courts have upheld our residency rule. They have upheld it to the point that we choose to spend our resources fighting other issues such as healthcare, retirement, and cost of living raises.


One more thing to chew on- what about all these Fire Departments that are now choosing to forbid the use of tobacco products on or off duty? What about all the court decisions rendering those departments not guilty of violation of rights?

My department doesn’t have a ‘non-tobacco’ use clause, but my brothers department does, as do several other local jobs. Again, it is used now as a condition of employment, in very much the same way as EMT or paramedic requirements. New hires sign an agreement before they are sworn in, so it isn’t an issue.

[DrParasite]

You’re right, you can live anywhere you want to under the whole life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness aspect, but what you don’t have is a constitutional right to be a firefighter, or work for Philly, or work for my city. Working for any of these organizations is a choice made by each member who takes the job. These residency policies were also in place long before I even dreamed of taking this job, so each member who took the job knew about the rule before applying. It is not a requirement to live in the city, because you are free to go and work wherever you want.you don't have a constitutional right to live where you want. please show me which amendment to the constitution says that, because, I'm pretty sure it's not there. you might infer one of the amendment means you can live where you want, but I'm pretty sure it's not a constitutional guarantee. Residency requirements might suck, but they are not illegal.

now, in case you were wondering, I can show you where it says every American has the right to freedom of speech

[jasper45]

I think you might need to go reread what I wrote. I never stated that residency requirements were against the constitution.
I’ll just leave my post at that. I thought I was pretty clear. In fact, all I stated was that you can live anywhere you want to under the whole life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness aspect

But, whatever.


Here is the rest of my original post for you, in case you missed this part.
but what you don’t have is a constitutional right to be a firefighter, or work for Philly, or work for my city. Working for any of these organizations is a choice made by each member who takes the job.

Oh, wait. You already quoted that, you must have missed that when you read it. My bad.

[DrParasite]

actually, I did read it. but it was easier to quote just one person and reply to all then to quite everyone. maybe you should read the whole thread instead of focusing on me?

to summarize for the "special people" who read this:

you have a constitutional right to free speech.

you do not have a constitutional right to live where you want to.

you do not have a constitutional right to be an employee of the fire department.

just because you are an employee of any organization, doesn't mean you forfeit your constitutional rights, especially when you are off duty.

[jasper45]

actually, I did read it. but it was easier to quote just one person and reply to all then to quite everyone. maybe you should read the whole thread instead of focusing on me?


My apologies Dr. P. I mistook your direct quote of me as implying that I thought residency rules are unconstitutional. I think we’re on the same page with that issue. I have been following this thread fairly close; this is an example of not having instant interaction. I misinterpreted you.

I also agree that people don’t give up civil rights to work for an organization. I also don’t think that this guys civil rights are being violated by his termination, and I hope that Philly doesn’t back down because of legal costs.
I for one am sick and tired of having cities turn over and let stuff go because it will cost too much to fight the legal action. I see it every day here, and it’s complete bull sh*t. You can be fired for what you do off-duty, and firemen are fired everyday across this country for stupid things they do while not on the job.
No one is infringing on his free speech rights. Besides, free speech only means you are protected from prosecution by the government for things you say. Sometimes using your free speech means there will be a backlash by other people using their own right to free speech. The city is not stopping him from what he is saying or ’singing’ about here. His words or lyrics may cost a police officer their life.
It happened here a number of years ago, while some of our more productive youth were free-basing crack and listening to some rap artist yap away about killing cops. They became so ’geeked’ up they grabbed a rifle and shot at a police wagon on patrol killing MPD Officer William Robertson, and wounding his partner.
So yeah, I say fire the loser. The lyrics these guys use do have an effect on people. If you don’t think so, you need to hang in some inner city neighborhoods for a while. The kids there worship these bums.

The guy is free to rap or say whatever he wants. He just can't wear a PFD badge and promote killing cops.

[DrParasite]

You can be fired for what you do off-duty, and firemen are fired everyday across this country for stupid things they do while not on the job. like what? I mean, short of something that the rank and file are told in advance are ground for termination (DUI, criminal conviction, etc), what stupid stuff can you be fired for while off duty? I'm genuinely curious, I'm not a career firefighter (never claimed to be), but i would imagine the union would fight any of your aforementioned "stupid things."
No one is infringing on his free speech rights. Besides, free speech only means you are protected from prosecution by the government for things you say. Sometimes using your free speech means there will be a backlash by other people using their own right to free speech. The city is not stopping him from what he is saying or ’singing’ about here. ummm, a government body is terminating him for something he is saying while off duty. it's not different that the union prez saying "the city is risking the lives of their firefighters by doing xyz" and then the city firing him for saying it (because it embarrasses the city). the content of the message might be different but the cause and effect are the same. and you and I both know the union would file suit claiming unfair termination.

His words or lyrics may cost a police officer their life.
It happened here a number of years ago, while some of our more productive youth were free-basing crack and listening to some rap artist yap away about killing cops. They became so ’geeked’ up they grabbed a rifle and shot at a police wagon on patrol killing MPD Officer William Robertson, and wounding his partner. again, with all due respect, that's a stretch. it wasn't the rap artist that caused them to kill the cop; if was the fact that these scumbags were freebasing crack, and probably not the best of society resulted in them hearing the lyrics of a song and (since we all have loaded rifles just lying around especially when freebasing crack) shooting up the police wagon.

was the rap artist charged? criminally? civilly? did the police chief write a nasty letter to said rap artist saying "because of your lyrics, an officer is dead"? I think not.

it may have been the straw, but there were other contributing factors.


So yeah, I say fire the loser. The lyrics these guys use do have an effect on people. If you don’t think so, you need to hang in some inner city neighborhoods for a while. The kids there worship these bums.

The guy is free to rap or say whatever he wants. He just can't wear a PFD badge and promote killing cops.I have heard the lyrics. I think some of them are downright offensive (rap in general). Gangster rap is even worse.

My problem is you want someone fired for something that isn't illegal. No crime has been committed. You don't like what he is saying. If it's illegal, pass a law banning gangster rap. pass a law saying no musician can advocate the injuring of any public safety official. hell, tell every Philly FF that they can't ever speak bad about the cops, of else they will be fired immediately. But until there are such rules in place, I don't think you have a legal reason to fire him.

Firing someone something that is yet to be against the rules would be essentially an ex post factor law/rule, which according to Article 1, Sections 9 and 10 of the US constitution, is illegal. Even after the rules change to make what was said illegal, firing him for stuff he said that has since been made illegal violates those same sections of the constitution.

but I think I have said enough on this topic, right now I'm going to have an off duty beer, and see what the news reports what happens in philly.

[DrParasite]

Philly Firefighter Cal Akbar Responds To Dismissal, FOP; Talks Free Speech
By Nolan Strong and Chris Richburg
Date: 5/7/2007 11:15 am

Days after being fired over a rap song he wrote last year, Philadelphia firefighter/rapper Rodney Jean-Jacques aka Cal Akbar, is speaking out about what lead to his dismissal, as well as the real story behind a controversial song.

Jean-Jacques was terminated last Monday (Apr. 30) by Engine 9 fire commissioner Lloyd Ayers, following the posting of a an untitled song by Akbar on www.domelights.com, a web site that posts forum discussions from police and firefighters.

During the song Akbar raps: I got a surprise for them cops I hope the news is taping this/ 'cause I'm gonna turn pigs into bacon bits.

"They had to do something. They had to act because of the high profile situation. But my main thing is I still got freedom of speech," Jean-Jacques told AllHipHop.com. "When I’m in uniform, I’m doing my job, I’m doing what I’m supposed to do. I have never had any negative action taken against me at work. I’ve been on the job for like four years. Two years ago, I got an award from the senator, I got another award for fire prevention. I was highly commended for the stuff I did in the department."

Although he understood the pressure the department was under from the Fraternal Order of Police and the media, Jean-Jacques believes it was "a bad decision" by Ayers to let him go because the song was not meant to be an attack on police.

According to Jean-Jacques, it was a story he created that was inspired by the character "Marv" from the film adaptation of Frank Miller’s Sin City graphic novels.

"I wanted to do the exact same thing that he [Miller] did," Jean-Jacques said. "A police chase scene...in the movie, he drives into the water and swims away. Me, I wanted to end it off my own way, put my own twist on it. It wasn’t like I’m sayin’ 'go off and shoot police' or nothing like that. That wasn’t my intention with the thing. I was like ‘I like this movie. Let me just flip it and do my own little thing with it.'"

Once word spread about the song, members of the Fraternal Order of Police demanded an apology from Jean-Jacques, who Ayers said was ultimately suspended for conduct unbecoming a firefighter, in writing a rap song about killing cops.

When none came, Robert V. Eddis, President of Lodge 5 of the FOP demanded Jean-Jacques be fired.

"The Fraternal Order of Police stands firm on our initial recommendation that he be dismissed from city employment," said Robert V. Eddis, president of Lodge 5 of the FOP, in a written statement last week.

"When I spoke to the president of FOP on the phone candidly, he was like ‘Oh, I didn’t know what it was about. But I just knew some firefighter said something about killing cops.’ And I’m like ‘Did you know the context of it?' He was like ‘No, I didn’t know.’ He didn’t even investigate to see. That’s part of the reason why I was like ‘there’s no reason for me to apologize.' I know about my rights as an American citizen," Jean-Jacques said.

Jean-Jacques’ intent to stand his ground was put to the test when he was approached by fire department officials, who tried to persuade him to sign a contract that would require him to not have any contact with his own record label, Larsiny Records.

When Jean-Jacques opted to have his lawyer look at the contract before signing it, the rapper said the group pressed him to sign the contract that day, but he refused.

"And then immediately after that, they [the fire department] brought charges [violations of code of conduct] upon me," Jean-Jacques stated. "They was like ‘OK, since you don’t want to sign it, here you go. You get charged with harassing the public' and all these absurd charges that don’t even pertain to me writing songs or entertainment."

In less controversial news, the rapper's group Larsiny is back together and have recorded two songs for fellow group member Cassidy's new album.

The Larsiny reunion also served as a time for the group to work out its internal issues, according to Jean-Jacques, who gave his opinion of what fans can expect from Cassidy musically and down the road.

Cassidy was seriously injured in a car accident in Oct. 2006, when a truck swerved into oncoming traffic and crashed into Cassidy's side of the SUV he was traveling in.

The rapper suffered a fractured skull and numerous broken bones in his face.

"His album is crackin’. He’s a new Cassidy, a new man in my eyes," Jean-Jacques revealed. "He got a lot of different stuff and a new perspective in life. It’s not really the same old stuff that you used to hearing out of him. He’s fully recovered. He was in a coma and he fully recovered from the coma."

http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=7045

[jasper45]

what stupid stuff can you be fired for while off duty? I'm genuinely curious, I'm not a career firefighter (never claimed to be), but i would imagine the union would fight any of your aforementioned "stupid things."


Just locally speaking, we had a ‘computer’ situation that occurred. I will not give any more details because the entire matter is still hashing it’s way out. The majority of what occurred though was off-duty.
I have also seen members terminated or suspended for a variety of things, including road rage, fist fights, and other disorderly conduct types of things.
The union does fight for them to keep their jobs, and they win some and lose some. Just going off from memory, it really is kind of case by case thing that will include a members service record.
I did however, go back and reread the rules book issued to me. One of the very specific rules we have is a code of conduct for both on and off-duty. It kind of falls into the whole 'conduct unbecoming' category.

ummm, a government body is terminating him for something he is saying while off duty.

Not really. What you have is an employer terminating an individual for what he said for the whole world to hear. The city of Philadelphia is a government agency, but they are just an employer in this case. They’re no different than a private company in this role.


again, with all due respect, that's a stretch. it wasn't the rap artist that caused them to kill the cop; if was the fact that these scumbags were freebasing crack

I don’t disagree with you entirely, but in my mind it was a contributing factor. These rappers have a right to say the things that they do, under our constitution; there is nothing we can do about that, except not buy their music, of course.
What makes this case different is that this person is a firefighter, who takes an oath of office to protect and preserve life and property. I may be wrong, but making music the promotes the murder of police officers is detrimental to this. These kids who listen have a number of factors that lead to their shooting cops, but we certainly don’t need a firefighter helping them out, even if it is just a little bit.
As we agreed on before, we all have a constitutional right to free speech, not to be a firefighter; being a firefighter is a privilege.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

actually, I did read it. but it was easier to quote just one person and reply to all then to quite everyone. maybe you should read the whole thread instead of focusing on me?

to summarize for the "special people" who read this:

you have a constitutional right to free speech.

you do not have a constitutional right to live where you want to.

you do not have a constitutional right to be an employee of the fire department.

just because you are an employee of any organization, doesn't mean you forfeit your constitutional rights, especially when you are off duty.


The courts have been quite clear that hate speech and speech inciting violence is not protected speech.

[DocVBFDE14]

My problem is you want someone fired for something that isn't illegal. No crime has been committed. You don't like what he is saying. If it's illegal, pass a law banning gangster rap. pass a law saying no musician can advocate the injuring of any public safety official. hell, tell every Philly FF that they can't ever speak bad about the cops, of else they will be fired immediately. But until there are such rules in place, I don't think you have a legal reason to fire him.

Firing someone something that is yet to be against the rules would be essentially an ex post factor law/rule, which according to Article 1, Sections 9 and 10 of the US constitution, is illegal. Even after the rules change to make what was said illegal, firing him for stuff he said that has since been made illegal violates those same sections of the constitution.

but I think I have said enough on this topic, right now I'm going to have an off duty beer, and see what the news reports what happens in philly.

You can not fire someone for something that is not illegal yet no. But a city/private organization can fire or terminate you for that little old thing called "conduct unbecoming" or any manner in which it is put. The rules to which you agree to upon joining a group or organization take precedence as long as they do not directly violate standing federal/state/local laws. Joe's Cookie bakery can not allow its employees to drive drunk as an example.

If he wishes to sing about killing cops he has every right to. Espically now that he has been terminated from Philadelphia city employment.

[RESERVEFORNOW]

again, with all due respect, that's a stretch. it wasn't the rap artist that caused them to kill the cop; if was the fact that these scumbags were freebasing crack, and probably not the best of society resulted in them hearing the lyrics of a song and (since we all have loaded rifles just lying around especially when freebasing crack) shooting up the police wagon.


Umm. Yeah. Okay, Marilyn Manson wasn't dirstly responsible for Columbine either, but the music and the lifestyle was part of the contributing factors. At what point do we have to get as a society before we look at all of these things, which are whittled away at the fabric of our society and say enough is enough? I believe that honarable professions, high profile people, athletes, celebrities, musicians, DO have a personal responsibility towards fixing these problems that have been created.

Just for a second, let's imagine that "Kal-poops-out-the-mouth" decided that instead of condoning cop killing in his lyrics, he would condone locking Firefighters in a burning building and let them burn? What then? Grounds enough for you soft shoes then?

Society has gone WAY too long without doing more about these underlying issues. The drugs, the violence, and yes, the music. Things are going to get worse before they ever get better, but Philly has taken a step in the right direction on this one.

[SPFDRum]

Another reason we are PROFESSIONALS, we have a standard of conduct. The failure to maintain that is discipline up to and including termination. Pretty straight forward.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Another reason we are PROFESSIONALS, we have a standard of conduct. The failure to maintain that is discipline up to and including termination. Pretty straight forward.

That's called being held to a higher standard and I agree with you 100%. There are so many people that want these career positions, that there is nothing wrong with expecting them to comport themselves better than the average citizen-on duty or off.

[thebravest1]

I like bacon...and bacon bits...seriously though, its amazing how much people talk about things they know nothing about. Firefighting is one of the last honorable professions left. Does this guy know what honor is? We'll see.