Could I get some info on where to start on the career path to becomming a firefighter

[Smerri]

Hello everyone. I would first like to preface by apologizing if this is the wrong forum, or if these questions get asked often. I have done some searching and still have questions I would like to get answered.

I am 19, live in Massachusetts, and did a Fire Explorers program for 3 of my four years of high school (Soph - Senior year). While attending this program, and after it's completion, I always wanted to pursue a career in the FD, however I sort of put it on the back burner until a month or so ago. I am a freshman in college, studying accounting, and it just doesn't interest me. School work is not something I am motivated to work on (and I don't see office work being any better). When I attended my Explorer's program (Once every two weeks), I always looked forward to it and to learning new things. Whether it was switching out SCBA's to taking blood pressure, to learning the pump system, to the EMT side of things, I always loved being embraced in that environment and loved training hands on with that.
As I said, recently I have once again given serious thoughts to joining a fire department, and after talking to many people, I am unsure of how to get started on this path. Some people have said the military is the only way, others tell me to take a fire science class, others tell me to take a four year course and receive a degree in fire science. After much research and snooping, I have finally come across this site and decided to ask the questions, hoping to get them answered, and allow me to give serious considerations to the job, and get started on the path to becoming a fire fighter.
So, I come here to ask what is my best bet to joining a department. Is the military my only choice? Is one fire science class enough (an evening program)? Will it drastically help me to attend school and receive a degree in fire science? As a side bar, if it is best for me to attend school for a fire science, I noticed many community colleges in this area offer Associates Degrees in the subject. Is this enough to get me started, or am I better off attending a private college? (Also, I am currently trying to get in touch with my former Explorer chief, however since my town is a volunteer department, it is a bit more difficult.)

If it helps to add to this, I don't drink, smoke, have no speeding tickets, no arrests, no court dates/appearances, and in case it was not clearly presented, I am interested in joining a paid department.

I thank you for any time you will take to read this post, and any help you provided. Even the smallest bit of information will be welcome with open arms.

Yours Truly,

Sean M.

[FLA1786]

Which way you go has A LOT to do with what department you want to get hired on with. If you want to work for boston, being in the military and living in boston would be a HUGE advantage. It all really depends on where you want to work...so where do you want to work?

[Smerri]

Which way you go has A LOT to do with what department you want to get hired on with. If you want to work for boston, being in the military and living in boston would be a HUGE advantage. It all really depends on where you want to work...so where do you want to work?

I am most interested in the Danvers, MA department.

[Smerri]

Which way you go has A LOT to do with what department you want to get hired on with. If you want to work for boston, being in the military and living in boston would be a HUGE advantage. It all really depends on where you want to work...so where do you want to work?

I am most interested in working for the Danvers, MA Fire Department.

[CaptBob]

If you really want to become a Firefighter going into the military might not be your best choice. Yes, I served my time in the military. I’ve seen and heard from candidates for years who thought the military would be their ticket in. I seldom if ever heard from them again after they went in. It might be a combination of pay, stations, getting married, financial and other obligations while in the military.

Education????? Degree???? You sound young enough to get a degree especially if your parents are going to pay the freight.

Education will never hurt you.

But if you really want to get a firefighter job consider these points:

Is there a requirement for an advanced degree to get a firefighter job?

Answer: Few if any. A fraction of departments list an advanced degree as desirable but not required.

Where are 80% of the job offerings?

Answer: Fire/medics

There are up to 800 candidates chasing each firefighter job. How many are chasing a fire/medic job?

Answer: 12-20. Which odds do you like better?

Ask yourself who is getting the badges? The vast majority of candidates we see get hired do not have advanced degrees. They're more in the line of EMT, FF1 academy, working on or have an AA or AS degree or medics. Some have no fire education or experience. Their biggest asset was they leaned how to take an interview.

What’s the time line? If you’re just starting college and want to get your BA, it could take you 4 maybe 5 or more years depending on when you can line up and complete all your classes and requirements. Then, if you wanted to go further the timing it to get into and academy and or paramedic school and get some street time another 2+ years? So around 7 years give or take to get in position to go after the badge. Are you going to need student loans? Do you have a special person in your life who is going to wait while you pursue your career? How long can you tread water?

The path to become a medic is about 2 years with gaining some savvy street time. If you can get in an academy in that time period it will be convincing evidence that you have the hands on experience that a department can take a risk on you.

Can you continue your education once you’re hired? Will departments give you an education incentive?

Answer: Yes to both.

Yes, having a degree will help with promotions but how long will it be before you will qualify to take a promotional exam?

Answer: Engineer depending on the agency 3 plus years. An officer? Five or more years. So if you get on you could obtain the necessary education before your first promotional test to be in position. And, the department will pay for you to go to college. And, to be able to use the advanced degree you have to get the J-O-B first.


The following is from:
Michael J. Ward, MGA, MIFireE

In my preferred world, a high school graduate will attend college and obtain an undergraduate bachelor’s degree PRIOR to getting a “real” job. This illustrates the values of going to college and getting to experiment and become an adult in a semi-protective environment.

Lets cut through the testosterone and turf wars and consider the question of which is the best way to get a badge. First, I will agree when considering a major in college, fire science provides a poor return on investment if the goal is a career as a paid firefighter.

There may be another reason why an 18 year old wants to go to work right away. Many graduates of American high schools lack the reading, mathematic or study skills to start freshman college.

Firefighting is one of the few middle-class jobs not requiring college education as a pre-employment requirement. I think that distinction will evaporate in the next generation. As Captain Bob repeatedly points out, most fire departments do not provide preferential considerations for someone with a two-or-four year degree. If you are going to college to prepare for a career in fire-rescue, your best investment is to obtain paramedic certification.

THE BRUTALITY OF THE HIRING PROCESS

Fire departments continue to hire as if it was 1899 – you are a slab of meat evaluated for your physical, mental and moral capabilities. The regional or local fire academy will provide the needed on-the-job training. Most of them do not care about your volunteer experience or existing fire service certifications. But many will treat you preferentially if you are a National Registry EMT/Paramedic.

You may have forgotten what it is like to be on the outside with a burning desire to be a full-time firefighter. That desire results in an endless “what-if” game that reminds me of high school dating.

Captain Bob’s approach to focus on only doing things to get the BADGE is like the suggestions I provide to younger wanna-be’s.

MY OPINION:

If you can, go to college and get a bachelor degree. Have fun, try out new things, see the world. Get your degree in whatever interests you, since 80% of your fellow graduates end up in jobs different than what their degree says.

After you get your badge and get off probation, you can take whatever fire science, emergency management, WMD, ICS, or XYZ classes required by your department. Generally, they will pay for those classes.
My teaching experience goes from high school vocational EMT (three years) to community college (20 years) through university (four years). My personal educational journey includes flunking out of engineering school, while living in a fire station and spending my parent’s money. I returned to obtain a bachelor and master degree years later.

There is a huge amount of diversity in "fire science" academic programs. From community college credit for Firefighter I to graduate engineering and hard science research university PhDs.
Michael J. Ward, MGA, MIFireE

[JayDudley]

On this one I have to disagree with Captain Bob. If you find it hard to gain access into the Fire Family.....Then there is a door open in the service. They train you to be Firefighters and you can see the world. To gain experience to become a Civilian Firefighter. That's the way I did it and I did disapear...but thats because I retired and moved to Northern Idaho. Education is also key here. Get your A.S. or A.A. in Fire Science and the world is yours.
Good Luck and I'm glad you finally found a web site where you can ask"those questions".

Respectfully,
Jay Dudley, Retired Fire

[FLA1786]

I tried finding a website for that FD and came up short. I also looked for a city website and it wasn't helpful. The best way to determine what you should do is find out the hiring process and talk to a DFD fireman.

NYC's process goes like this: apply, civil service written exam, physical, recieve rank number, get conditional offer pending medical and psych evaluations. If you are a citizen of NYC you get to add 5 points to your written, and if you are a veteren(military) you get to add 10. For NYC the best way to go is military.

Now there are places like in california where the whole ballgame changes, if youre not a medic they wont look at you. That is why you will read so many mixed answers. CaptBob will tell you to become a medic and buy his program, because that works for his region and places like it. But a Boston or NYC fireman will tell you to get in shape, goto the military, and get an outstanding score.

See its all subject to where you want to be and what that departments process is. If you could give me an idea on how this town works with that I, and others, could narrow it down for you. Judging by the size of the department though, youre probably gonna want to start volunteering for them, or getting involved somehow, small places like them like their own and dont really have to answer to anyone.

[CaptBob]

Now there are places like in california where the whole ballgame changes, if youre not a medic they wont look at you. That is why you will read so many mixed answers. CaptBob will tell you to become a medic and buy his program, because that works for his region and places like it. But a Boston or NYC fireman will tell you to get in shape, goto the military, and get an outstanding score.

Really??? Granted, NYC and Boston are one of the few left that don't give an oral board. What about all the others where the oral board is 100% of the score?

We have the GPS to help you get the J-O-B!

From Tim: It doesn't matter where you are from, what part of the country you're in, how old or tall, or fit you are, without these tools you have provided I'd still be a phone man in NYC. Now I'm achieved my dream job and proud to say I'll be a firefighter in beautiful Virginia Beach. This feeling of accomplishment feels like it will last a lifetime, it's an amazing feeling.

For those candidates that think just because they are in the service as a volunteer or EMT, gives them the knowledge and preparedness is just plain ignorant. I was both a volunteer firefighter and EMT several years ago, and would not have known the skills and nuggets needed to get that edge and advantage through each step without Captain Bob’s program. Thank you. Tim

[FLA1786]

Really??? Granted, NYC and Boston are one of the few left that don't give an oral board. What about all the others where the oral board is 100% of the score?

We have the GPS to help you get the J-O-B!

From Tim: It doesn't matter where you are from, what part of the country you're in, how old or tall, or fit you are, without these tools you have provided I'd still be a phone man in NYC. Now I'm achieved my dream job and proud to say I'll be a firefighter in beautiful Virginia Beach. This feeling of accomplishment feels like it will last a lifetime, it's an amazing feeling.

For those candidates that think just because they are in the service as a volunteer or EMT, gives them the knowledge and preparedness is just plain ignorant. I was both a volunteer firefighter and EMT several years ago, and would not have known the skills and nuggets needed to get that edge and advantage through each step without Captain Bob’s program. Thank you. Tim

I dont think you read what I said correctly? I wasn't questioning your methods by any means, I haven't used them so I wouldn't know but the hundreds of testimonials randomly posted speak for themselves. I was just saying if the guy wanted to work for a place like NYC or Boston (mainly boston cause thats where he lives), and also the entire state of NJ then people from those regions would tell him to go military. The department he wants is actually a small town so your advice and product will probably be his best bet if they dont use the Mass civil service system. If they DO use the mass civil service then being a veteran would place him above everone else on the list, then he could use your program if the dept uses an oral. Like I was saying, every place is different and calls for different ways, wasnt questioning you Cap.

[Smerri]

Thank you very much for the answers. I just wanted to post to let you know I am following the thread and reading everything. Trying to digest everything and take it from there, with some more questions probably.

Thanks Again for the help, it is greatly appreciated.

Sean

[CALFFBOU]

I only got a minute here, but I would NOT join the military in hopes to enter the fire service.

Why?

I have seen people get too caught up and settled in the military life. More offen, the serviceperson gets lonely, then married, then kids, in debt and over all so in deep in life that trying to enter the fire service (classes, testing, orals, traveling, etc...) is too taxing on the mind, body and mostly the pocketbook.

Find out who and where you want to work. FOCUS on that target area and get there. Do whatever it takes to get a foothold and start there. There are plenty of backdoors to enter a fire service career, most people are too lazy to jiggle on the door to enter it. (dispatcher, prevention, office, etc...)

Perfect example- I like the Las Vegas area. If I was starting over, I would go work for AMR there. They ROCK when it comes to EMS. They would probably send you to medic school locally. Then the sky is the limit- Clark County Fire, Las Vegas City, Henderson, North LV, NDF, etc.

California? You can pull of the same plan. As mention severla times before, Cali wants medics. But, there are lot of non-medic backdoors in Cali. I would talk about them here, but if youre not interested, I will pass on the info. for now.

Education- If youre still young, living with Mom and Dad and they will pay for your schooling- DO IT! A degree is "paper gold". And makes a perfect "plan b" if you get hurt on the job. (what are you goingto do, flip burgers?)


If you want more help, hit me up....Bou

[Murtin641]

Im also 19, im from New Jersey and having a hard time getting into a career fire employment. I am currently in school for Public safety, but my old man lost his job and he can no longer pay for my education. Im in the hiring process for Charlotte Fire, and i read on one of the forums that it is one of the hardest depts. to get into. Any suggestions? or other places to go?

[LightsAndSirens]

Army or Air National Guard is the way to go. They pay for school, look awesome on a resume, and get you extra points on the written test for most departments if you achieve veteran status. You can earn your degree and be in the guard at the same time, and if you're smart, volunteer fire & EMS somewhere. If you do these things and keep your record clean, you'll be on the right track to getting a job at a good department. Do it while you're young and you won't regret it.

I don't care what anybody else says; military experience really stands out to most employers as a very good thing. Combine that with a college degree, and you're going to be way ahead of the game no matter what career path you choose.

[CALFFBOU]

And right now if you join the military, there is a good chance that you might be shipped overseas with a commitment AFTER you return.

Again- Ask yourself, deep down- What do I really want?

If I could go back in time, I would have taken my own advice and done things a little different.

[Chibe1]

Sean,

Whether you decide to go military or not you need to pass the written exam and oral interview to get the job. Check out a new free website www.thefirefighterexam.com. The site includes practice exams, interview tips, job listings and more. Good luck.

Jon

[cb1776]

Join the military (regular active duty), keep your head low, get out (honorable discharge, of course!) and become a paramedic and in the meantime don't get anyone pregnant (assuming you're a dude..) or don't get pregnant :)

PS. be willing to relocate.

Good Luck

[mattc05]

I agree with some already that don't go into the military. I'd say go the whole fire science AS degree route, volunteer again, and get your EMT. Once you get those out of the way, take some tests to see how you do and where you need work on. Do this for about 3 years, and you'll have all that behind you when your 22, have a little life experience behind you, and then apply. See were you want to work and what you need.

[LightsAndSirens]

Here's the deal, if you want a FF job w/a good dept, you have to be more than just qualified. There are so many people who are just...qualified. You have to bring something unique to the table that makes them want YOU. That takes doing something to separate you from the crowd. Getting a good FF job also takes proving you're a trustworthy & well-rounded person with strength of character & maturity. Nobody can tell you exactly what path to take, but I advise not only do more than the average Joe, but something different that helps define who you are. Find a path and stick with it by consistently taking steps towards your goal. Whenever I talk with the chief for the city I live in (population about 250,000) about the firefighters of that department, the chief doesn't talk about how well-qualified the firefighters are, the chief talks about what good people they are; think about it!

[matthewfkahn]

I myself have a similar dilemma. I live in Jersey and am a non-vet. Its a civil service exam and I also have NO residency preference in the town I live bc they are open to two counties as "residents". Because of this frustrating process, I have seriously contemplated moving to FLA, going to school to get my EMT/Paramedic then paying my way through the academy so I can start applying. Tough decision bc Im not exactly thrilled to move and go to school for a year and a half (I just finished college!)

[CaptBob]

I believe in education. If you want to get a Public Administration, Engineering or any other degree as a career track, great. Don’t think it will be the key to get into the fire service. We have enough chiefs. We need more indians.

I’ve coached several candidates who have had B.S./BA degrees in Public Administration areas. They have been misguided by counselors that said this would be an asset to get into the fire service. What ends up happening is these candidates show up at an entry-level oral board boasting and trying to hammer the board with their degree. What they don’t understand is some on the other side of the oral board table do not have this degree. And most of these candidates might never have a chance to use it in the fire service. You see you have to get the J-O-B first. Can you get hired going the education route? Sure. It happens all the time.

This from a SF candidate: I'm currently on the SFFD H-2 list "4th Generation hopefully SFFD"! I'm also a volunteer firefighter/EMT. My volunteer Fire department requires Paramedic certifications for entry-level firefighters. After graduating from a four year university... I had an administration internship with my volunteer department where I wrote and designed the District's Master Plan and preformed statistical analysis for "time respond" for Fire suppression and medical calls. I also went on ride alongs with the engine, truck and even with the chief himself. I was told by the chief if I went out to get my paramedic license... I would be hired on the spot. Becoming a paramedic is not my cup of tea... it's been beaten in my head as a child "from my grandfather and father" to be a firefighter not a medic... ! All of the paid firefighters like my work ethic and all say they should let me in as a Firefighter/EMT.

My reply: With all due respect to your family members, the playing field has changed. It must be killing you to see these guys hired and it's not you. Like it or not, understand that 75%+ of calls are medical in nature. Eighty percent of the job offerings are for fire medics. Had you gone to medic school as I encourage candidates to do, gained the valuable in service medic street time, you wouldn't be trying to fight your way into a department as an EMT. You would be wearing the H-3 badge for SFFD (I'm 3rd generation San Franciscan myself) or another department.

John came in for a coaching session after not being able to pass any oral boards. He was one of those candidates who I think was misguided into a Public Administration Degree. During his coaching, he kept trying to come back to his degree. I finally told him, "Screw you! You want to come into my oral board and try to hammer me with a degree you may never use?" You’re applying for a snotty nose rookie position as a firefighter!" John dropped his head and said, "Maybe that’s why I can’t get through any orals."

John ended up going to paramedic school (which he should have already done instead of the B/A degree). Although he mentioned the B/A degree in his oral board answer "What have you done to prepare for this position" he focused on his personal life and paramedic experience. He got his badge!

Look for the shortest distance to the badge. If I were starting out and had the interest in EMS, I would run to paramedic school. Yes, you can get on without it. I have candidates all the time who get a badge without being a medic. But for the time spent and with more than 80% of job offerings being fire/medic, the odds are better.

Many departments have educational incentive programs where they will pay you to go to school. I took advantage of this program and received an additional 5% pay. This 5% was included in my retirement.

From another candidate:
With all due respect to all that was said, speaking as a volunteer firefighter who has a 4 year degree, I would say that getting your BA or BS for a firefighter job is not a good way to go. I got my BS, and $100,000 later, I'm hoping to work in a job that requires only a technical certification that costs $250. and having the BS with out the tech cert makes me pretty much unhirable.

Get your paramedic. get your FF1 and FF2. get your hazmat tech. those are what is going to make you valuable to a company. A 4 year degree is worthwhile, but only if you use it. most departments aren't requiring them. some departments will even pay for you to attend college courses. yes, it helps if you want to become an officer or a chief officer. but your going for entry level. your going to have to pass the physical, pass the psych test, pass the written, and pass the oral board.

Focus on your goal and don't let anything get in your way until you get it.

[BCLepore]

Bob wrote,

"We have enough chiefs, we need more indians."

I couldn't disagree more. One of my mentors told me years ago something that I still remember to this day. He said, "We can hire back seat firefighters all day long. I want to hire someone who will be a lieutenant in 8 10 10 years."

Anyone who tells yo that education is not important to the fire service is out to lunch.




Two-Year Plan


 If still in high school look into a Regional Occupational Program (ROP).

Many local fire departments have community outreach recruitment programs.

 Graduate from high school or obtain your GED.

A diploma is much preferred.

 Talk with a counselor at a community college that offers fire science courses.

Set up a course curriculum that allows you to obtain a two-year degree in fire science. If the local college does not offer a fire science program, find one that does.

This curriculum should also allow you to complete the prerequisite courses for a fire academy.

 Take an Emergency Medical Technician Course (EMT).

This will accomplish a few things. First of all, it is a course required by most departments. It will also let you know if this profession is for you. If you find you can’t handle the sight of blood or helping people during crises, the fire service may not be for you.

 Enroll in a state certified fire academy.

Many departments require completion of a Firefighter 1 Academy prior to taking the entry-level exam.

Completion of a fire academy prior to being hired will greatly enhance a candidate’s chance of successfully completing the fire department’s academy. Many fire departments have a 25 – 30% failure rate.


 Find out if your community has either a fire department volunteer program or Fire Explorers.


Volunteering in the fire department is an excellent way to gain real life experience. This exposure will also allow you to determine if this is indeed the right career choice for you.


 Volunteer in your community.

Find something that you are interested in and volunteer your time: church, sports, hospital, YMCA, Red Cross, etc. It doesn’t matter. Get involved. Volunteering is something that should be done because it’s the right thing to do, not because it will look good on a firefighter application.


Firefighters are self-motivated and have historically been involved in their communities. The perception is that if you are helping out in your community now, you will be the type who will likely continue to stay involved after you are hired, helping out in various committees and groups both on and off the job.

 Visit the local fire stations.

Interview the firefighters and elicit their help in planning your career path. It is a tremendous compliment to the firefighters to have someone aspire to be in their position. Visiting the fire stations will help you learn about the job and the culture of the fire service. In addition, you will learn of things that you could be doing to enhance your chances of getting hired. Ultimately, when the department hires, you will be in a good position since the firefighters have gotten to know you and have taken the time to mentor you. There is nothing better than a “home grown” prospect.

 Prepare for a fire department interview.

Consider the reasons why you want to become a firefighter and be able to express them. Do your research and learn the rules of the road concerning the interview process. Participate in “mock” interviews with firefighters.

 Start a log that includes everything you have done to prepare yourself.

Include details, dates, and names of instructors. Include any personal experiences that may be pertinent to becoming a firefighter.
A few examples of this could be:

You witnessed a car accident and were able to render aid.

You volunteered your time at the Boys and Girls club.


You experienced a life-changing event.

You were voted most inspirational on your athletic team or your fire academy.

Your high school athletic team won the championship.

You were a lifeguard at the city pool.

Anything that you think might be significant. There are no rules. Write it down!

This information will go on your resume, or may be speaking points in an interview. This is preparing you to answer difficult questions in an interview, such as, “Please share with the panel a stressful time in your life, and how you dealt with it.”

The log should just be an easy and accessible memory jogger for you. If you are comfortable with a pencil and notepad, keep them in your room in a convenient spot so you won’t forget to use them. If you are more comfortable on the computer, then use it to formulate your thoughts and ideas.

 Get in shape.

Firefighting is a very physical job requiring peak physical strength and endurance. If you are not in good physical condition, it will become very evident during the physical agility testing or the pre-hire medical exam. It is also important to look as if you are physically prepared for the job.

If you see a firefighter who looks out of shape, don’t look at him and think, “If he got hired, so can I!” Odds are he was in better physical condition when he was first hired. You are trying to do everything you can to improve your chances. This is a very important part that you have complete control over!

 Look the part!

The rule of thumb in an interview is to hire someone who you can see becoming a member or your crew tomorrow. A candidate who walks in with excessive facial hair, large tattoos or body piercing that is not permitted by the department’s policies presents as a candidate who is not ready for the position. Do not make the mistake of saying that you will remove them when you are ready to be hired. You are making a statement. It is important to understand that the fire department is a paramilitary organization. These will definitely not improve your chances of success.

 Dress professionally.
Invest in a suit and tie. Although not required for the interview, a candidate who does not wear one stands out. First impressions are critical. Make sure the suit is conservative, not flashy.

Dress professionally whenever you will have contact with members of the department. This includes station visits. Remember, it is important to make a good first impression.

 Enroll in a service that lets you know which departments are testing.

There are several businesses on the Internet that will inform you of which departments are testing and what their requirements are.

Most departments test every 2-3 years. They will then hire from the “eligibility list” until it expires. The window to file an application is usually very small, ranging from as short as 1 day to as long as 30 days. Once the filing period is closed, the department will not accept any more applications. If you don’t have a subscription to one these services, you will miss a lot of opportunities.

 Talk to your family.

The decision to become a firefighter is a monumental one. It will most likely be a long road that requires a lot of time and sacrifice. If you don’t have a family or friend support network, it will become extremely difficult. Most importantly, if your spouse does not support your decision, you are destined for failure.

 Surround yourself with reputable people.

A firefighter position is a life choice, not just a job. You must be prepared to live your life with excellent moral and ethical values. For this you will need the support of family and friends who are good role models. If your friends are not a positive influence in the community, you may want to find a new set of friends. Remember the old saying, “Birds of a feather flock together.” A background check will scrutinize not only you, but also the company you keep.

 Learn a trade.

Woodworking, framing, electrical, plumbing, welding and automotive are all common examples of a trade. Firefighting is a very physical job that requires good psychomotor skills and a hands-on approach. Typically those who have learned a trade possess these applicable job skills. If you know how a building is constructed, you will be able to predict how a fire will travel through it. If you know where the electrical and plumbing is typically run behind the drywall, you will most likely know where it would be safe to open it up. You will also have become very comfortable with power tools. The importance of being able to work with your hands cannot be overstated.

If you don’t currently have this kind of experience, start taking classes in a trade at your community college. You will at least learn the basics. Back this up with some real life practical experience. It will be invaluable knowledge and will play out well in an interview. Mechanical aptitude cannot be learned in an Internet class or while sitting behind a computer.

 Improve your public speaking skills.

If you are uncomfortable getting up in front of a group, you must take steps to overcome your fear. The largest percentage of the testing process is the interview, and ultimately a large part of the job deals with public speaking! You won’t talk a fire out, but you will talk to different groups about how to prevent them. If you can present yourself well in an interview, you are leaps and bounds ahead of the others who can’t. Even if the other candidates have more experience than you, the job will usually be awarded to the candidate who can present him or herself in a clear and concise manner.

If public speaking is your downfall, it is imperative to join Toastmasters or take some courses at your community college. A speech and debate class is an excellent way to get over the jitters. Acting or drama classes can also be an excellent way to feel more comfortable in front of a group.

Teaching others can also help you learn to think on your feet. Whether you are teaching CPR and First Aid or your local Sunday school class, it will help you learn to present information clearly and field questions.

A typical interview question might be, “What do you consider a weakness about yourself?” Your answer could be, “I used to feel uncomfortable getting up and speaking in front of a group. I knew this was a very important part of my chosen vocation. I took several classes at my community college to help improve my comfort level. Since then I feel much more confident in my ability to speak in public.”

You can have all of the best traits in the world, but if you can’t effectively convey them in an interview they will go unnoticed. Now that’s turning a negative into a positive!

 Maintain a clean driving and criminal record.

It goes without saying that firefighters are held to a standard that is much higher than the average citizen. The road is littered with firefighter candidates who have failed their background check due to a poor driving or criminal record.

 Maintain a good credit history.

Your credit history is a reflection of your reliability, honesty, organization and attention to detail.

 Update your resume.

Make sure your resume has no technical or grammatical errors, is well organized and comprehensive. Ask reliable friends or family to proofread it.

[CaptBob]

Paul Wrote:

"We have enough chiefs, we need more indians."

I couldn't disagree more. One of my mentors told me years ago something that I still remember to this day. He said, "We can hire back seat firefighters all day long. I want to hire someone who will be a lieutenant in 8 10 10 years."

Anyone who tells yo that education is not important to the fire service is out to lunch.


Lunch? Maybe you missed the opening in my posting:

I believe in education.

Well Chief who's really getting the badges? Are you speaking for your department or the fire service in general.

Is your goal to become a firefighter? Whichever way you go it all comes down to priorities. I believe in doing what is necessary to improve your odds in gaining that badge. The vast majority of candidates I’ve seen over the last few years do not have a four-year degree. That has not changed coast to coast. You have to get the J-O-B first!

I’ve heard from more than 20 candidates who are either in the LA City Academy, scheduled for one of the next academies or in the final stages of completing their backgrounds. Not one has a four-year degree. Not one! Many had little of no previous interview experience. What say you?

If a firefighter can't get in a degree in the 8 to ten year period you're referring to on a firefighters schedule before their eligible for promotion are they really motivated? I hear it's tough to go back and get your degree once you get hired. Motivation and priorities again. I did it and got paid to go to college and get my degree.

Two friends, Dave and Scott were volunteers in their city. Dave had been convinced that he needed to get a degree in order to be hired. Scott told him to stay, become a medic and they would get on. Dave went off for six years, got his BA degree in business and still couldn’t get hired. Scott became a medic and was hired by his volunteer department. He now has 6 years seniority, made more than $100,000 each year with OT ($140,000 last year---that’s real money) and enjoys the good life, more toys than you could imagine and has traveled everywhere.

Guess what? Dave was still trying to get a fire job after six years. Even after getting all the usual credentials. Firefighter 1, BA degree, 3 seasons with CDF, rode ambulance yada, yada, yada, Dave finally figured out he needed to become a medic (yes, he enjoys the medic side) to get hired. to get hired. After getting his medic cert, he got hired. Where you ask? The department he was a volunteer for.

[LightsAndSirens]

I'm going to have to agree with BCLepore on the chiefs vs. indians debate when it comes to hiring firefighters. Actually, when I came across the post where CaptBob said "we have enough chiefs, we need more indians," I was quite surprised, because it went against everything I've ever learned about firefighting recruitment. I'll elaborate more when it isn't so late.

[BCLepore]

Bob,
In the past 30 days I have been to Washington DC to attend an EMS meeting that included all of the major fire departments across the country (New York, Milwaukee, San Antonio, Dallas, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Denver etc.) This week I attended a meeting to rewrite the high Rise portion of the FOG manual with representatives from San Francisco, San Diego, LA County, LA City, Fresno, Orange County, Redwood City, and Fresno.
The subject of hiring entry-level firefighters is on the forefront of everyone’s mind. Everywhere I go it is the subject of conversation. I can assure you that each of these Chief Officers (this is the same group that is intimately involved in the hiring of new firefighters), is looking for well-rounded, intelligent, EDUCATED candidates.
Your statement of, “We have enough Chief Officers and not enough Indians” is a direct reflection of you not understanding today’s fire service. Times have changed.
Most of the chief officers who are leading today’s fire service are either in school (while balancing their fire department responsibilities and family), or have earned a degree while they worked.
Your stale post about the two volunteers is also old and out of date. You need to get some new material.
I am a huge advocate of paramedics. I am in charge of the EMS Division of one of the largest departments in California. I still maintain my paramedic license. Having said all of that, if I had a son or daughter interested in the fire service I would encourage him or her to get a four-year degree and THEN worry about the fire department.
Getting hired in the fire service is not the end of the journey. It’s the beginning. You still need to complete probation and find your niche on the department. Soon you will become the senior firefighter. Before you know it you will be studying for promotional exams.

Paul Lepore

[CaptBob]

Spin this any way you want but the proof is in who is getting the badges.

From a candidate:

I think its best to get your paramedic first. I tested for five years before I got it. I got hired after three months of getting it. Now I am going to go back and get my degree. I tested in shorts and got hired Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[LightsAndSirens]

Spin this any way you want but the proof is in who is getting the badges.

Many of the people I know who have gotten badges are leaders. One is the leader of a boyscout troupe, another was a manager at a restaurant, another was an assistant chief at the department where I've been volunteering for many years, and yet another was a high school history teacher & soccer coach.

As you know, being a professional firefighter bears a lot of responsibility. Those who have been in a position of authority usually are more adept at handling the pressure of being in the public eye by working for a community as a civil servant who's put on quite a high pedestal.

Also, being adaptable by having the ability to do more than just one position is valuable. When a firefighter gets older and isn't able to physically do what they did before, it benefits a department if someone can do more than just fight fires by instead directing, organizing, and teaching those who are less experienced.

Just because someone has been a leader, doesn't mean they doesn't mean they are resistant to taking orders, in fact, I think it's quite the contrary. People who have led tend to understand the importance of following commands more than most people.

[CaptBob]

In touch? We certainly view the process with different eyes.

I'm in constant contact with more than 9,000 folks involved in the hiring process coast to coast, sea to shining sea and through out Canada. Since we can see beyond where you can see there appears to not be an earth swell towards needing an advanced degree to become a firefighter.

This is from a previous posting:

One other thing to consider in this debate between Paul and Capt. Bob, is that you cannot use Paul and Chris's department and Los Angeles as the bellweather departments to gauge how it is in all areas of California or the country. They are LARGE departments, and they are certainly not representative of the hundreds of other departments in California.

I know where I live, there is one BLS fire department in the county. All others ONLY hire paramedics. None will send you to paramedic school, and only a couple will send you to any "academy" style training after you are hired.

If you want a job with a department who's only entry level position is that of Firefighter/Paramedic, guess what? You aren't getting hired without your paramedic license. There are MANY departments like this. I would say that the overwhelming majority of departments don't send their employees to paramedic school. They want you qualified for their entry level position day one.


Good Luck!

FireMedic

[BCLepore]

Bob,
You may be speaking to the candidates who are testing. I am speaking to the chiefs who are hiring the candidates.

Big difference.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

[CaptBob]

Bob,
You may be speaking to the candidates who are testing. I am speaking to the chiefs who are hiring the candidates.

Big difference.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

I'm talking to the candidates who are testing those who are getting their badges. The proof is in the badges.

[BCLepore]

Bob,
If we are going to cut and paste emails from other people, here is one from a firefighter on another forum:

Capt. Bob:

There is no spin here. This is the reality today. I have encountered far, far, FAR too many individuals who hear that Medic School is the way to get the job, but they are completely unprepared for what will be expected of them. I had one candidate sit across the table from me two days before his Chief's Oral and tell me that before Medic School, he worked on engines. We asked him what kind of fuel our K-12 saw runs, (we even let him look at it), and he told us it runs on diesel!!

The proof IS in who is getting the badges. I agree with you, with one addition. The proof is in who is getting - and keeping - the badges.

I already told you who is getting the badges, but I will re-post it here if it helps:

Candidates who can exhibit:

-Communication Skills
-Responsible Decision Making
-Life Experience
-Pride in your self and your accomplishments
-Ability to take orders and work in someone else's system
-Ability to use hand tools and power tools
-Understanding of Construction and Mechanics
-Spirit of Volunteerism
-Commitment to Education
-Physical Fitness
-Customer Service

Every department has different requirements. The ones that hire medics, while they may be the "majority" of job POSTINGS, typically hire far fewer of those candidates (I would estimate by a factor of as much as 10-20x).


Chris

[CaptBob]

double post

[jklm128]

This is a really great thread, thanks CaptBob, and BCLepore. I am in a similar situation that you guys have been mentioning. Basically I am finishing up my AAS in fire science, but since its not in heavy in demand, I have to wait a year before the classes i need are available. So in the time being I am transferring out and beginning the paramedic program this upcoming fall. I know in my area, NJ, its really tough to get hired since its mostly politics and residency issues, so I'm looking to go out of state. I've already tested for NJ, Long Beach, FDNY, among other well known depts. Most of the hot jobs around my neck of the woods like DC, fairfax, etc. take preference over most candidates if they have the paramedic certification, so it is really up to each dept, and not the hiring service as a whole that really makes the consensus about who gets hired faster. Of course I do want to finish up my AAS and continue to get my BS in fire science, I am putting that on a hiatus at the moment to get my paramedic license. I agree with both of you at some points and my opinion is to get your paramedic license first, but just don't stop there. Try and obtain higher education if possible.

[CaptBob]

Resonable plan.

BTW: Just did another quick search on job postings for California and Oregon. These are the jobs you can apply for today.

Firefighters 11

Fire/Medics 28

How many candidates do you think will be competing for those 11 departments that are testing? Up to 800 for each job.

How many are going to compete for those 28 departments that are testing for fire/medics. Around 12 for each job. Which odds do you like better?

Where are you going to get more bang for your $$$$$$?

[CALFFBOU]

Jumping in late on this one.

I am sure everyone can agree, education is key. Otherwise none of us would get where we are today without it. What I am getting here is the comparison of the education level vs. FD rank.

In my opinion only- I always thought this is the ideal career ladder-

-Firefighter/Engineer- AA/AS
-Fire Captain- BA/BS
-BC and above- Masters. (but a BS/BA would be acceptable)

But we are talking entry level here. And again, in my opinion, for an entry level FF, the BA/BS is nice, but he/she doesnt need to come in to an oral board jamming it down the rater's throats. You have it- Great. Mention it- yes. Jam it- No.

People can finish and continue their education after being hired and finishing their probation. I can say this because I have done it and know BC Paul is working on it. To me, its a smart FF that takes advantage of the 20 days off a month to pursue education either online or at the local CC.

Clear as mud?

[CaptBob]

Should you become a paramedic to get a firefighter job?

I know you will hear that if you really don’t want to be a medic don’t just do it to get the job. That all you really need is your EMT to get hired.

If you understand that there are up to 800 candidates for each firefighter job, that you could be running out of hope and the love of your life is not going to wait any longer unless she has a ring and a date. Been the frequent-flyer mileage king flying all over the country and unsuccessfully taking tests and your biggest income last year came from your credit cards. You have lost friends. Don’t know how you’re going to live without the job of your dreams. Can afford to take the time and loss of income to make it happen. Have a supporting partner. Know you would have to spend about a year getting certified and it will be the toughest thing you have ever done.

Can a relative pay for your education? Do you have GI Bill education money? Can you get a student loan. Know that 80% of the job offerings now are for fire medics and up to 75% of our calls are EMS related anyway. Know that even if you become a medic, you still may never get this job. Have been riding ambulance anyway and this will pave the way into many medic schools. Aren’t going to take the chance of some college medic programs that only take 35 people a year and receive over 200 applications. Will step up and pay the $7,000 plus dollars to be in and out of a program in about a year.

You’re the energizer bunny who will keep going and going and going when others would stop. Know that if you are a medic taking a regular firefighter entrance test you will probably get a better shot. You won’t be happy until you can puff your chest out with a badge and have people wave at you in the jump seats, carrying on a family tradition. Want that shift work with great benefits that go way into retirement. A career position with chances of advancement.

You will have the opportunity to use the education and experience you have acquired. To work for a department that offers you everything a firefighter hopes for. Calls that cover anything from air, land and sea. A place where you can’t wait to get back from your days off. You will be able to go from one call to another to another on a busy rig. Believe me there is nothing like it.

I know you will hear that if you really don’t want to be a medic don’t just do it to get the job. That all you really need is your EMT to get hired. But, if you answered yes to the majority of the above there is no doubt where you will be the happiest. If I were in your position I would beg, borrow, and run with my afterburners on to get to medic school! Because unlike a regular entry level test where there are up to 800 candidates for each job, there are only 20 candidates for every fire medic job. It is by far your fastest way to the badge.

[CaptBob]

I was in Stockton California early on Tuesday morning. The entire block around the building was covered with those sleeping overnight to get one of the 1,000 firefighter applications. This was the largest group I’ve seen spending the night at Stockton. It looked like a homeless camp. Was also the first time I’ve seen the extended sleeping bags with the candidates loved one keeping them warm. Not a bad move. The tip off was a pair of high heel shoes out side the sleeping bag. I don’t know the qualifications of those picking up applications.

I’ve also been at medic only tests where there were 100-200 candidates applying. Since there is less competition and testing times are in the evening or week ends to accommodate the medics to fill the slots the public has mandated for medics.

I talk to candidates through the whole spectrum of the testing process who have little to no testing, education or experience, and those who have obtained degrees and or their medic license get hired.

So you’re a candidate who has acquired education, EMT, an academy, volunteer experience, etc. to compete with the army of those sleeping on the sidewalk overnight to just get a shot at an application to test. What if you had the ability, interest and opportunity to get your medic certification? Do you think that would improve your position to a shorter distance between you and that infamous badge you have been looking for? Have you seen your buddies already pull this off leaving you sleeping on the sidewalk?

It can be spun anyway you want, the proof is in the badge. Yours!