Outstanding Job

[truck7midtown]

I believe that most of the people that claim to be firefighters want to wear the shirt and ride the truck; however, when it comes to doing the job they want to stand out side and squirt water and then slap hands and say good job. I think that most company officers are to quick to say defenese mode and not do what you signed up for and swore and oath to up hold. This is inheritently a dangerous job and by that I mean everyone who wears the badge should know the dangers. I think that we should be as safe as possible and use all the pars and accountabilty and RIT teams as possible. You have to put it on the line in this job. For those who dont want to carry on with the tradition of the fire service should transfer to the ambulance and watch every fire from the security of the front seat. I hope that all real brothers agree .

[Firefighter2230]

get frustrated much????

[THEFIRENUT]

I believe that most of the people that claim to be firefighters want to wear the shirt and ride the truck; however, when it comes to doing the job they want to stand out side and squirt water and then slap hands and say good job. I think that most company officers are to quick to say defenese mode and not do what you signed up for and swore and oath to up hold. This is inheritently a dangerous job and by that I mean everyone who wears the badge should know the dangers. I think that we should be as safe as possible and use all the pars and accountabilty and RIT teams as possible. You have to put it on the line in this job. For those who dont want to carry on with the tradition of the fire service should transfer to the ambulance and watch every fire from the security of the front seat. I hope that all real brothers agree .

I hope that all real brothers and sisters make it home to their families. We risk our lives when the need arises, but not because it is what "we signed up for". There are some that say we should go into every fire. Then there are those who say that we should err on the side of safety. There has to be some middle ground in doing this job. We have all heard the saying; "risk a little to save a little, risk a lot to save a lot". I know that it is not as simple as that, but we have to have somewhere to start.

I also know that there is a big difference being on the line and going in to do "battle with the beast" and sending in your guys to do this battle. We all must do our jobs, but I don't want to be the one to make the visit to our lost brother's or sister's family to tell them that their loved one perished because "this is what they signed up for".

If we lose a member of our "family", we had better have a damn good reason. Not just because we want to show the world that we have big egos!!!!

[firefighter3419]

If we lose a member of our "family", we had better have a damn good reason. Not just because we want to show the world that we have big egos!!!!

You are 100% correct, I have no problem risking my life for someone who can not get them self to safety. But if a floor is giving, or the structure in unsteady I am not going to sit there and fight a fire in the inside just to prove a point. Saving a life is one thing, but saving property is not worth my life. I would give my life up in a heart beat for one of my brothers or sister. Maybe even a victim. But basically committing suicide just so a house is still standing is just stupid!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I believe that most of the people that claim to be firefighters want to wear the shirt and ride the truck; however, when it comes to doing the job they want to stand out side and squirt water and then slap hands and say good job. I think that most company officers are to quick to say defenese mode and not do what you signed up for and swore and oath to up hold. This is inheritently a dangerous job and by that I mean everyone who wears the badge should know the dangers. I think that we should be as safe as possible and use all the pars and accountabilty and RIT teams as possible. You have to put it on the line in this job. For those who dont want to carry on with the tradition of the fire service should transfer to the ambulance and watch every fire from the security of the front seat. I hope that all real brothers agree .

"Most" is a stretch, don't you think? "Most" would include the majority of guys on your job.

[jonnyirons2]

This guy isnt from NYC. 'Our' job doesnt have transfers to an Ambulance. Taxpayers are the biggest killers of firemen, all for an unoccupied building thats not worth the contents in it. If a taxpayer doesnt go out in the first 5-10 mins pull everyone out, its not worth another funeral.

[nyckftbl]

"Most" is a stretch, don't you think? "Most" would include the majority of guys on your job.

Please dont infer that this guy is on our job. He clearly isnt.

[CaptainGonzo]

This guy isnt from NYC. 'Our' job doesnt have transfers to an Ambulance. Taxpayers are the biggest killers of firemen, all for an unoccupied building thats not worth the contents in it. If a taxpayer doesnt go out in the first 5-10 mins pull everyone out, its not worth another funeral.


Amen, bro, amen.

Look at your typical "stand alone" MickeyD's, Burger King, Wendy's, etc.

Class 2 construction, with all of the heavy stuff (HVAC units, kitchen vents, etc.) up on the roof which is more than likely lightweight steel plating covered by a rubber membrane and supported by lightweight steel trusses... what is theoretically a taxpayer, aka " a disposable building"... aka "firefighter killer".

One of these burns, I can guarantee that it will be rebuilt in a short period of time... They will bulldoze the rubble off the slab and start all over... not worth killing our own over.

People trapped inside... then it's different.. mount a rescue op, then get the hell out of there and go defensive. If the architects didn't give a fat rat's rump about firefighter safety when they designed it, then we should look out for ourselves and let the place go.

just my 5 cents worth.. Deputies have to pay a little more than a Captain!

[truck7midtown]

Its just a screen name I work for the Houston fire Department....

[throthestick]

I work in a city that is capable of placing 14/ 16 guys on scene on the first alarm within 2- 4 minutes. we can hold up to a third alarm on our own before mutual cos. come to the scene. The city is surrounded by towns that have a larger response area than my city , yet they only have 3 or 4 guys on per shift and then have to tone off duty members in . pulling up with 3 guys and then having to wait a while before help arrives in my oppinion does not dictate being overly aggressive with an interior attack .. whos getting supply ? whos venting ? .. the list goes on .. when recues or searches are to be made than everything goes out the window..
Its really not fair to critique smaller depts . that simply dont have the innitial manpower for what is percieved as a lack of aggressive effort .. its being smart and understanding what you can do with what you have . sure your goinget remarks like " nice stop" . But at the end of the day its better to make off handed jokes like we all do oh so well , than it is to make arrangements for a funeral..


Is it the same job with the same priciples ? absolutely.. but manpower can make the same dwelling with the same amount of fire allmost a night and day scenario when it comes down to whats being placed on the fire ground on the inntial attack.. so i believe in this regard one needs to be carefull when casting judgement on another depts operations. they could be doing it alot more right than some will give them credit for.

[Bones42]

Its just a screen name I work for the Houston fire Department.... You mean there are actually fire departments out there other than FDNY? Wow, and here I thought every comment ever made on these forums dealt with FDNY and no one else in the world. :rolleyes:

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Look at your typical "stand alone" MickeyD's, Burger King, Wendy's, etc.

Class 2 construction, with all of the heavy stuff (HVAC units, kitchen vents, etc.) up on the roof which is more than likely lightweight steel plating covered by a rubber membrane and supported by lightweight steel trusses... what is theoretically a taxpayer, aka " a disposable building"... aka "firefighter killer".

One of these burns, I can guarantee that it will be rebuilt in a short period of time... They will bulldoze the rubble off the slab and start all over... not worth killing our own over.



Right on Chief. These buildings are built like garbage, no sprinklers etc. I am watching a Taco Bell go up in my neighborhod, you hit the nail squarely on the head.

[KenNFD1219]

One of these burns, I can guarantee that it will be rebuilt in a short period of time... They will bulldoze the rubble off the slab and start all over... not worth killing our own over.
We had a fire in one of these a few years ago-2AM, unoccupied, fire through the roof and trusses starting to collapse on arrival. As IC, I referred to is as a rubbish fire.

The company scraped off the slab and replaced the building in a few months. They did add a sprinkler system-for the shrubs in the front of the building.

[truck7midtown]

I guess we can staff all appratus with two members one to steer the truck and one to point the deck gun.....Then we can take a test and promote onto the bulldozer.

[VinnieB]

You mean there are actually fire departments out there other than FDNY? Wow, and here I thought every comment ever made on these forums dealt with FDNY and no one else in the world. :rolleyes:


Bones, I believe my two brothers from NY and the others thought he might be from The City because we have a Ladder Co. 7 that is in Midtown Manhattan. As for every comment, well....there happen to be a-lot of posts that stay near the top of the forums for a long while that have to do with the FDNY.

[johnny46]

Its just a screen name I work for the Houston fire Department....

The apparatus from 7's a re labeled Midtown.

I'm driving your old E-One right now while the Ferrara is in La getting some work done. Ya'll really took care of the truck--she's not all torn up like some others out there.

I might be able to guess the impetus for this post. You were at that fire on Ashift or you read the letter that snottily comments the first thing that can fail is our common sense and closes with "respectfully?"

[dday05]

Your statements are very interesting. I'm guessing I won't be reading about any buildings or what not burning down in the Houston area then should I? I'm an Asst Chief, and I'm also one for good interior firefighting, along with having RIT and other safety features in place.But there is a point when YOU as an officer have to draw the line and say this is going to be a defensive operation period. It's not worth it sending people in some times and yes I know it's a hard decision to make, and people are pissed at you but guess what you came home at the end of the day or shift right? Thats what it all should be about right? As an officer I'm responsible for my people ,and I could be mistaken but some officers are being brought up on charges for injuries or the worst LODD. Could you even imagine explaing to their families this situation. I hope I never have to be in that kind of a position! And to add on to what Gonzo said, most of these building are going to be destroyed and rebuilt.

[Catch22]

Risk a lot to save a lot, Risk little to save little.

I've read about to many firefighters and personally known two too many who died to save a building. I tend to go to work thinking that risking my life to save another is part of my job, not risking my life in general. Too many officers have the "risking your life is part of the job" theory IMHO, rather than going defensive when there's a risk to firefighters.

It's not a warzone for Christ's sakes, it's a job. Sure there's risks, but no need for unnecessary risks under the mindset of "the risk is part of the job." As an officer, I'm not going to risk my guys' lives for a bunch of wood, metal, and whatever else they're building with these days.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Please dont infer that this guy is on our job. He clearly isnt.

I didn't, did I? I agree with you.

[ElectricHoser]

I've heard before that Houston is very aggressive. You seem to be their type, then.

For me, it goes beyond my own personal decisions about what I am willing to risk. I ask myself, what do my wife and children think is an acceptable risk? For what are they willing to walk behind a black-draped BRT? If they don't think it is worth it, it probably isn't.

Suit yourself, but try to not get anyone else killed based on your own personal values.

[CaptainGonzo]

I guess we can staff all appratus with two members one to steer the truck and one to point the deck gun.....Then we can take a test and promote onto the bulldozer.


It's apparent thsat you have already forgotten.....

The 3-11 Fire

As a result of extensive investigations by several agencies and testimony presented in court, the following information about the cause of the fire has come to light.


The 24-hour day for the "A" shift was almost over on the morning of February 14, 2000. The house lights came on at 0433 and the crew of Engine and Ladder 76 woke up to the thought that; given the time of the morning, the call could turn out to be a working fire. They were being dispatched to a building fire at 12602 Bissonnet at Huntington Place just 1.9 miles from Fire Station 76. They manned their apparatus like they have done many times before not realizing that two of their fire fighters would not return to quarters with them at the end of the shift. The equipment from Station 76 was the first to arrive at the location, which was a McDonald’s Restaurant that they had passed by many times before. The crew of Station 76 began doing their job just like they always did; however, things turned bad very quickly. Soon after fire fighters Lewis Mayo and Kim Smith entered the building and headed toward the rear of the restaurant, the suspended ceiling along with the air conditioning ducts fell in first, trapping the two fire fighters. Lewis Mayo was covered by the ceiling and was soon located and was transported to Herman Hospital by Medic 75. Kim Smith was also covered by the fallen roof; however, her escape path was blocked. She managed to free herself and head toward the rear of the restaurant desperately, looking for a way out. When the area of the roof containing the air containing fell in, this fueled the fire causing it to intensify and engulfing Kim after she was unable to find her way to safety. After she was located just twelve feet from the back entrance, her body was taken out of the still smoldering building. Her fellow Fire Fighters stood in two lines to shield her from the on looking news media and the public and placed her in Medic 68. Engine 82 escorted medic 68 to Station 75. Hundreds of fire fighters had gathered there for prayer for the two fallen fire fighters. When the convoy arrived at Station 75, several fire fighters placed flowers in the back of the medic unit. The body of fire fighter Kim Smith was then transported to the Harris County Coroner.


The cause of the fire

The restaurant had been entered earlier that morning by three teenage males who were attempting to gain access to the safe. The teens had been given a key by an accomplice who was a McDonalds employee. They had taken in with them a cutting torch to open the safe. They had received information that the safe contained the weekend receipts that could total up to 18,000 dollars. It took them several hours to get the first door of the safe open. An attempt to open the second door of the safe failed. They then allegedly left the restaurant and went to a local 24 hour Wal Mart and purchased another cutting torch.

After another attempt to gain access to the area of the safe that contained the cash failed this angered one of the youths. They then began to tear up the office in retaliation. One of the teens then allegedly set the storage cabinets in the office on fire and shortly after that they exited the building.

After the arson investigators began to search though the smoldering remains of the restaurant they found the safe. They had determined that the safe was damaged by someone attempting to open it. The investigators then determined who had been at the restaurant working the night before and came up with a name of a 15 year old assistant manager. The boy was brought to the scene and was able to provide information about his part in the burglary.

Three men were allegedly involved with the actual break-in. They were arrested by HFD arson that same morning. The youth that was the restaurant assistant manager was charged with burglary. His trail is set for later this year. The other three were charged with arson and murder. The trial began in August 2000 and lasted about three weeks. The three young men were found guilty of felony murder and arson. They received prison sentences ranging from 17 years to 35 years.

The five days following the fire.

After the morning of the fire, the Fire Chief’s Staff and the Fire Fighters Union began feverishly organizing a memorial service for both fire fighters which was soon set for Friday, February 18 at 10:00 am. The service was held at Rice Stadium. A call to the off duty shift for volunteers was sent out. A large number of fire fighters, their relatives and friends came to the call. All of these volunteers were quickly organized to begin planning for the memorial services. The volunteers began getting transportation and supplies, getting groups of fire fighters to the airports to greet fire fighters from all over the country, and getting a group to Rice Stadium to prepare it for the service.

Early Friday morning the membership of the Houston Fire Department met at Rice Stadium where they were shuttled to the Mecom Fountain. They were met by hundreds of fire fighters from other departments. From there, they started their journey to Rice Stadium. Once all personnel were in their seats, the memorial service began.

The funeral service and burial for Lewis was later that afternoon. The service was held at Christ the Good Shepherd, and he was put to rest in Memorial Oaks Cemetery.

The funeral service for Kim took place Saturday morning. A funeral mass was held at St. Michael’s Catholic Church. After the service, her family, friends, and a large group of fire fighters began the journey to Refugio, Texas where she was laid to rest in the family plot between her grandmother and grandfather. On the three-hour journey, they were greeted by the fire departments, police departments and citizens from each town they passed through.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

It's apparent thsat you have already forgotten.....

Hey Prez,

I guess HFD is big enough to be an outstanding FD with one idiot malcontent.

Thanks for posting that story.

[res1cueffd]

Houston definitely has the rep of being extremely aggressive. Just look at some of 19's videos.

[Steamer]

I'm not about to put people unnecessarily in harm's way for the sake of a burned out shell that's going to be replaced anyway. It's about good, solid fire ground tactics and risk management practices; not someone's testosterone level.

[HotTrotter]

I believe that most of the people that claim to be firefighters want to wear the shirt and ride the truck; however, when it comes to doing the job they want to stand out side and squirt water and then slap hands and say good job. I think that most company officers are to quick to say defenese mode and not do what you signed up for and swore and oath to up hold. This is inheritently a dangerous job and by that I mean everyone who wears the badge should know the dangers. I think that we should be as safe as possible and use all the pars and accountabilty and RIT teams as possible. You have to put it on the line in this job. For those who dont want to carry on with the tradition of the fire service should transfer to the ambulance and watch every fire from the security of the front seat. I hope that all real brothers agree .

OK, what is the rest of the story here. There aren't too many who won't do what it takes. Although our department has about 35 members, half of whom are "certified interior" of that half only half really do go interior. And I'm ok with that. If you really don't feel comfortable going inside then I really don't want yo going in with me. Some of those who maintain their interior status do it "just in case" they are needed. Realize that every man that goes inside there must be 5 or 6 on the outside supporting him (or her).

So tell me, what is the real problem? :confused:

[wag11c]

I'm gonna remember this post the next time I do a risk vs benefit size up. Seriously, sounds like the guy is just blowing off some steam at what may have been a poor job, lighten up men. I use that term loosely GEORGE as sometimes I'm not sure what if you have the extra X chromosome, moron.

[CaptainGonzo]

I'm gonna remember this post the next time I do a risk vs benefit size up. Seriously, sounds like the guy is just blowing off some steam at what may have been a poor job, lighten up men. I use that term loosely GEORGE as sometimes I'm not sure what if you have the extra X chromosome, moron.

By the same token... he probably wanted to "play", not taking into
consideration that the situation was a defecation vs. oscillation scenario.

Why the shot at George... or did you recognize yourself in his post?

[johnny46]

I don't see where 7 indicates taking foolish risks. I see him lamenting the knee-jerk defensive fires.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Maybe thats true Johnny. Maybe that was why he was lamenting about all his slacker brothers around the globe. He has no business referring to most firefighters as t-shirt wearing hand slappers. He is wrong and he is rude.

[plisken]

Hey houston look at Dallas two LODD to save a McDonalds after hours for what. They will Razz a 5 yr old building to follow a trend. If occupied going through the door for rescue is our JOB but for the structure, ITS NOT WORTH THE PRICE. My kids without a father for a structure no way..

[johnny46]

It was two Houston firefighters who died in a collapse at a McDonald's, not Dallas.

The fire didn't start accidentally, so there could have been a life hazard if the arsonist hadn't gotten out. A quick search is usually possible, but people are too quick to assume there's nopbody inside, or my personal favorite cop out: "There couldn't be anyone alive in there."

The decision to remain outside prior to search must be made because it is too dangerous to effect a search and rescue, not because of some imaginary ability to know there's no one inside.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Why the shot at George... or did you recognize yourself in his post?

Because that is the only thing he can bring to the debate. His past posts would indicate, as you have observed, that the turnout coat with the name MALCONTENT across the back fits him as well.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I don't see where 7 indicates taking foolish risks. I see him lamenting the knee-jerk defensive fires.

Do you see him insulting the vast majority of Houston fire fightgers as well? You guys fit into the MOST category.

[HEYVERN]

Right on Chief. These buildings are built like garbage, no sprinklers etc. I am watching a Taco Bell go up in my neighborhod, you hit the nail squarely on the head.

ALL OF THE NEW FAST FOOD CHAINS IN OHIO ARE REQUIRED TO BE SPRINKLED. GOT TO LOVE THE NEW LAWS!!!

[johnny46]

Do you see him insulting the vast majority of Houston fire fightgers as well? You guys fit into the MOST category.

Since I don't fit into that category, it doesn't bother me. I don't have professional respect for those of us who don't want to do the job correctly, either. If you don't fit into that category, then don't worry about it. Those who do shouldn't, either because it's just a simple fact. Maybe most firefighters do want to do the job right and do want to be as aggressive as is reasonable, but knowing humans, that's not very likely, is it?

It's only an insult if it's not true.

[CaptainGonzo]

Since I don't fit into that category, it doesn't bother me. I don't have professional respect for those of us who don't want to do the job correctly, either. If you don't fit into that category, then don't worry about it. Those who do shouldn't, either because it's just a simple fact. Maybe most firefighters do want to do the job right and do want to be as aggressive as is reasonable, but knowing humans, that's not very likely, is it?

It's only an insult if it's not true.


One can do the job correctly, and still make the decision to "go defensive" right away. The guys "on the line" forget that the guys with the plungers
(from Lt. on up) have a a hell of a lot more responsibility... making sure "everyone goes home" at the end of the tour just happens to be one of them.

You may whine, complain, argue, gripe and bitch all you want.. but.. if you ended your tour of duty and went home to your family safe and sound.. then the company officer/IC did his job... after all, you are not the one going to the Brother's or Sister's house to make the notification of serious injury or death....

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Since I don't fit into that category, it doesn't bother me. I don't have professional respect for those of us who don't want to do the job correctly, either. If you don't fit into that category, then don't worry about it. Those who do shouldn't, either because it's just a simple fact. Maybe most firefighters do want to do the job right and do want to be as aggressive as is reasonable, but knowing humans, that's not very likely, is it?

It's only an insult if it's not true.

OK. 2 malcontents.

[johnny46]

OK. 2 malcontents.

I think your estimates are conservative.

I liked you better on Cheers.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I think your estimates are conservative.

I liked you better on Cheers.

If there are that many malcontents, why don't you all get together and find another job? That way, people who actually WANT to be fire fighters can have a chance at a job they would love.

BTW, when you watch me on Cheers, remember that TV adds about 50 pounds.

[HotTrotter]

If there are that many malcontents, why don't you all get together and find another job? That way, people who actually WANT to be fire fighters can have a chance at a job they would love.

BTW, when you watch me on Cheers, remember that TV adds about 50 pounds.

Hmmmm. So if I stop watching TV I will lose 50 Pounds??? :D

Not for nothing, but this clown came in here, stirred things up, made a couple of posts, and hasn't been heard from since. You don't suppose he is sitting at home laughing at the hornets nest he stirred up? Anyone wonder what his real motive is? :confused:

[johnny46]

If there are that many malcontents, why don't you all get together and find another job? That way, people who actually WANT to be fire fighters can have a chance at a job they would love.

BTW, when you watch me on Cheers, remember that TV adds about 50 pounds.
His argument was that he wanted to be a fireman, not that he didn't want to. I think discontented is a better word choice. He's not seeking reasons to be upset, he is encountering them. Perhaps he is a cynic, but that doesn't really affect his desire to properly do his job. Every time someone speaks out in favor of aggressive firefighting, someone pipes up about LODD, unreasonable decisions or machismo. Why? Our buddy here might be cynical, but he's not advocated rash decisions.

[FlyingKiwi]

I believe that most of the people that claim to be firefighters want to wear the shirt and ride the truck; however, when it comes to doing the job they want to stand out side and squirt water and then slap hands and say good job.

BAWAHAHAHAHAHA.

I fight what you fear ya plonker. :D

5 hours OUTSIDE fighting a bush fire.

Not an interior or defensive mode in sight. :rolleyes:

And afterwards we just went home, had a beer and got on with life.

Obviously something you are not capable of.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

His argument was that he wanted to be a fireman, not that he didn't want to. I think discontented is a better word choice. He's not seeking reasons to be upset, he is encountering them. Perhaps he is a cynic, but that doesn't really affect his desire to properly do his job. Every time someone speaks out in favor of aggressive firefighting, someone pipes up about LODD, unreasonable decisions or machismo. Why? Our buddy here might be cynical, but he's not advocated rash decisions.

Do you suppose it was a rash decision to type a post that derided the majority (MOST) fire fighters as being unwilling or incapable of doing the job? His post did not differentiate between career or volunteer, newbie or Crusty: he clearly wrote "MOST". Most means Most of us, here, as well.

I have had my experience with guys like him and they are spelled C-A-N-C-E-R.

[CaptainGonzo]

My FD has done its share aggressive interior attacks and made a lot of excellent stops.

We have also created a cellar hole or two, despite our best efforts.

There are those firefighters who are like the "moth to the flame".. they focus so much on the fire that they ignore the situation they are in... and those are the types that usually get themslves into deep doo doo.

Don't forget.. that when you are inside.. you don't know what's going on on the outside...

When I was a newly minted LT, my company was dispatched on the 2nd to a working fire at an old reservoir pumping station.. abandoned for years, and used by teenagers as "party central"... We got our assignment from Command.. pull a line, make the old Chicago loop and wail the fire through the open doorway.

A few members of my crew wanted to "go inside".. I said "no... it's a freaking abandoned building"... As the more vocal member of the crew protested my decision, a section of the roof came in.. right where they wanted to make their entry...

They were so focused on the fire they did not see or hear the roof starting to creak and come down...

Everyone went home after that fire.. and that's a good thing.

[BKDRAFT]

Great videos from 19 house!

[johnny46]

A few members of my crew wanted to "go inside".. I said "no... it's a freaking abandoned building"... As the more vocal member of the crew protested my decision, a section of the roof came in.. right where they wanted to make their entry...

They were so focused on the fire they did not see or hear the roof starting to creak and come down...


Sorry to split hairs, but it sounds like it's not the abandoned so much as the unstable that made you make the call.

[johnny46]

Do you suppose it was a rash decision to type a post that derided the majority (MOST) fire fighters as being unwilling or incapable of doing the job? His post did not differentiate between career or volunteer, newbie or Crusty: he clearly wrote "MOST". Most means Most of us, here, as well.

I have had my experience with guys like him and they are spelled C-A-N-C-E-R.

Like I said, he might be cynical. I'm perfectly open to the notion that the "most" fits because the fire service is made up of humans and humans are notorious for the traits mentioned. That's life.


You're misapplying my usage of rash. We're talking tactics, not rudeness.

[MattyS]

Do you suppose it was a rash decision to type a post that derided the majority (MOST) fire fighters as being unwilling or incapable of doing the job? His post did not differentiate between career or volunteer, newbie or Crusty: he clearly wrote "MOST". Most means Most of us, here, as well.

I have had my experience with guys like him and they are spelled C-A-N-C-E-R.

"...I have belonged to many organizations within the Fire Service, but none with a mission like this one. In NYC we called ourselves the Fire 500. We figured that out of the almost 12000 members of the FD, there were maybe 500 of us that cared about the History and tradition of the job. And it always seemed like the numbers were shrinking. Other FD’s laughed that they had the Fire 30, or the Fire 1, depending on how bad things seemed to be.

But now we have the Fire 1000’s. And the name has been changed to the FOOL’s..."

[DocVBFDE14]

Heck, I am more concerned with freelancing than the original post. We've got the exact opposite problem. Everyone wants inside that little room where the dryer went on fire, and nobody wants to do the other just as important things :eek: You know those silly things like venting, utilities, water supply, proper apparatus positioning:cool: Think freelancing causes as many holes in the ground as going defensive too early

[MemphisE34a]

OK. 2 malcontents.
I am not in Houston, but once again I am standing by my man Johnny. Make me honorary malcontent #3. I think a vast majority of the fire service has forgotten why we are here and is too quick to come up with excuses to not do our job. The video from Ventura County in the tactics section is a perfect example. A pitiful example of firefighting, but more people are defending their actions because - well, at least no one got hurt. Its hard to get hurt when you are fighting it from the yard. If every fire needs an excuse to not get hurt, consider accounting or something like that. Thats actually what that fire looks like. A bunch of accountants in turnouts showed up and did what they know about firefighting after years of watching Backdraft, Rescue Me, and Ladder 49. I am sure such a group would have done equally as good of a job.

I have openly stated that in my opinion, 75% of the people in my fine city would just as soon stand outside with the public and watch it burn. Too many people are applying because of benefits and time off instead of having a passion for the job and the days ON!! Why work in a busy house? It all pays the same, right? Rediculous!! And it is evidently the same everywhere. Every fire department everywhere is a whole lot the same, just the names change.

It is possible to be aggressive and not stupid, but the very fact that the majority of people in this thread seem to liken the two together seems to help me make my point.

The NYC Fire 500 - an instant classic with me. I'll do the math and put our numbers up later.

***EDIT*** I did the math. Turns out 75% is too low of a percentage. I would have to say Memphis would have about the Fire 75 club; out of 1800. You do the math.

[GFDLT1]

Count me as malcontent #4. I too believe that there are too many people who are paycheck firefighters and are not in it for the love of it. They are here for the benefits and to say "HEY Everyone I'm a firefighter". I am a proud FOOL and on our chapter's eboard.

I think there is a big difference between being an aggressive, smart firefighter who is strong in the strategy and tactics, and being a stupid whacker who routinely experiences the moth to flame event.

You have to have a deep love for this job to be proficent at it, and a desire to be a student of it. I don't want to work with those who don't also share that desire and love.

FTM-EGH

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I am not in Houston, but once again I am standing by my man Johnny. Make me honorary malcontent #3. I think a vast majority of the fire service has forgotten why we are here and is too quick to come up with excuses to not do our job. The video from Ventura County in the tactics section is a perfect example. A pitiful example of firefighting, but more people are defending their actions because - well, at least no one got hurt. Its hard to get hurt when you are fighting it from the yard. If every fire needs an excuse to not get hurt, consider accounting or something like that. Thats actually what that fire looks like. A bunch of accountants in turnouts showed up and did what they know about firefighting after years of watching Backdraft, Rescue Me, and Ladder 49. I am sure such a group would have done equally as good of a job.

I have openly stated that in my opinion, 75% of the people in my fine city would just as soon stand outside with the public and watch it burn. Too many people are applying because of benefits and time off instead of having a passion for the job and the days ON!! Why work in a busy house? It all pays the same, right? Rediculous!! And it is evidently the same everywhere. Every fire department everywhere is a whole lot the same, just the names change.

It is possible to be aggressive and not stupid, but the very fact that the majority of people in this thread seem to liken the two together seems to help me make my point.

The NYC Fire 500 - an instant classic with me. I'll do the math and put our numbers up later.

***EDIT*** I did the math. Turns out 75% is too low of a percentage. I would have to say Memphis would have about the Fire 75 club; out of 1800. You do the math.


So there are only 75 real fire fighters on your job? I have a good idea. Stand up at your next union meeting and make that announcement. Then let me know what hospital you are in having your head removed from your ass and I'll send you a card.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Count me as malcontent #4. I too believe that there are too many people who are paycheck firefighters and are not in it for the love of it. They are here for the benefits and to say "HEY Everyone I'm a firefighter". I am a proud FOOL and on our chapter's eboard.

I think there is a big difference between being an aggressive, smart firefighter who is strong in the strategy and tactics, and being a stupid whacker who routinely experiences the moth to flame event.

You have to have a deep love for this job to be proficent at it, and a desire to be a student of it. I don't want to work with those who don't also share that desire and love.

FTM-EGH

I agree with your post. It expresses an opinion that can be backed up. It also doesn't use the baseless and utterly impossible words "most" or "vast majority".

[ChicagoFF]

I guess I'll have to join the malcontents. The original post talked about safety and knowing the dangers of the job. But it seemed to be mostly a statement against people being so cautious as to not perform their jobs. You read these attitudes here all the time and they all start with "Risk a little...." That line is becoming seriously overused and abused in my opinion. Whats next? "Risk alot to save some stranger??? Are you nuts? Just hit it from the window". Everyone here has seen this attitude posted here and probably at your job as well. We all know duckers who never seem to make it in for the initial attack. And it seems to me that this guy was venting a little at those creatures. He never said "aggressive to the point of no return" he said "get in there and do your job" Theres a big difference.


Plus malcontents always seem to be more fun.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I guess I'll have to join the malcontents. The original post talked about safety and knowing the dangers of the job. But it seemed to be mostly a statement against people being so cautious as to not perform their jobs. You read these attitudes here all the time and they all start with "Risk a little...." That line is becoming seriously overused and abused in my opinion. Whats next? "Risk alot to save some stranger??? Are you nuts? Just hit it from the window". Everyone here has seen this attitude posted here and probably at your job as well. We all know duckers who never seem to make it in for the initial attack. And it seems to me that this guy was venting a little at those creatures. He never said "aggressive to the point of no return" he said "get in there and do your job" Theres a big difference.


Plus malcontents always seem to be more fun.

No, but what he said was "most" of the fire service was not worthy to carry the title of fire fighter. Tell me, is that true of "most" of Chicago FD members?

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

What you are saying is that you agree with the original post that stated that MOST firemen are in it to wear a t-shirt and slap hands? Are you willing to prove how much of a "malcontent" you are by going into every firehouse in the 13th and 14th Battalion and say that you think that MOST firemen are duckers? That is what the man said. If you think that bull**** is true then you must be one of the chosen "Super Firemen" who know the secret handshake. Give me a break.

[BackstepFF]

Good topic. I don't know if it makes me a malcontent or not but the Fire 500 and the 30% club are probably one and the same and our ranks seem to be slowly, gradually diminishing. This was posted on several other websites so I don't suppose Jake would mind me reposting it here:

The 30% Club
By Jake Rixner

There is a little known club in the fire service; I call it the 30% club. The members of this club have what it takes to get the job done no matter what the circumstances. I first noticed this club when assigned to 5 Engine in Richmond, Virginia. 5 Engine was the busiest Engine Company in Richmond, for the entire 8 years I was assigned there. It was a wonderful place for a young fireman to learn his trade.

In the early 1980’s all three shifts at the nickel were taking in about 80 to 100 working fires a year, most of which were in the first due. To really learn how to be a good fireman, one has to go to fires. And the action didn’t get any better than 5 Engine.

Some of the best Officers, and firemen were assigned to the busy house on Leigh Street. Lessons of previous battles were passed down from the senior members. Friendships were forged that will be taken to the grave. We also worked with 18 other men assigned to 1 Truck that shared the cramped quarters. Many of them, were also members of the 30% club.

What is the 30% club?
Have you ever noticed that when first arriving at a working fire, its always the same guys who step-up and take the fight to the fire? Now far be it for me to point fingers at the rest of the members, but it seems that some guys have a strong urge for self-preservation. Another important point is that someone has to take the hydrant. In my early days as a Richmond Fireman, it was always the same guys you bumped into inside a fire building.

Pitch black smoke, the sound of crackling fire, a campfire noise amplified 100 times by being confined inside a building. Who is that? It’s Buzzy, It’s Pinky, It’s Radar, it’s Mikey, It’s Bryan, It’s Grayson, and the list goes on. Richmond has always been blessed with great firemen; it has been passed down from generation to generation. It always felt good to be crawling down that long dark, hot hallway with these men.

Upon finding the fire, the pipe is opened and the steam seams to find every opening in your clothing, making and uncomfortable situation even worse. Thru clenched jaws you “stick it out” that extra 30 seconds that it takes to turn a second alarm fire into just another all-hands job.

The members of the 30% club know that their work will not be featured on the news, the public will never see what they do. That small burns to the ears, & neck are part of the trade. They know that many second and third alarm fires (which can generate intense media coverage) would have been put out for want of a thirty percenter on the pipe. Members of the club also know that once the fire is knocked down, there will be a wave of firemen on scene wanting to help pull ceilings and walls, making sure the rub a little soot on themselves. At times it gets so tight you can’t move.

So what is it that drives these guys? Thirty percenters love the challenge of taking on a force of nature, and living to tell about it. They know that the true reward working in this business is what you give back to the community, the life you helped save, the building you helped save, the little boys baseball card collection. A little girl’s American girl doll collection. The family photo album. Things that can never be replaced are some of the things that drive the “thirty percenter”. There is also a bond, a brotherhood that is formed by shared hardships, and shared danger. Respect, the respect you get from Officers and co-workers. I can remember what it meant to me. The many times of “Good job” or the eye contact from officers who know what you just went through, and what you’ve accomplished. The respect your company receives from the Battalion Chiefs. The respect you receive in the firehouse kitchen, etc. It feels good to be in the thirty percent club.

How do you join?

You join the club by taking all available training classes. Learn your business so you are not a danger to yourself or those around you. Then you must figure out who in your department is trustworthy, and stick with him at the next fire. Like any trade, you need a mentor to show you the ropes.

Be careful, the loudest talker at the kitchen table may not be the best fireman on the fireground; its often that quiet guy sitting at the table taking it all in, who just might surprise you at the next worker. One sure way to tell is to push the line in at the next fire and see who you bump into………I can promise you that it is right then that you will have become a candidate for the thirty percent club. And you may even be seen with a slight grin on your face when one of the pretenders rubs a dirty glove across his face…

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Interesting article....

Do you think that each FD's "30% Club" bears any leadership responsibility to step up and help change things? Or is sitting back and bitching that nobody is as good as they are anymore good enough?

[MemphisE34a]

So there are only 75 real fire fighters on your job? I have a good idea. Stand up at your next union meeting and make that announcement. Then let me know what hospital you are in having your head removed from your ass and I'll send you a card.
Ah, the George I have grown to love and admire is back to only remembering the parts of the post he wants to. Kinda like selective hearing, huh George.

I think the Fire club post stated that there was X number of people who cared about the history and tradition of the job, not just to 'real fireman'.

I guess I should clarify slightly that after ciphoring some more, 75% might be a more accurate number. I was originally thinking only of company officers. Its hard for the guys to get in there when the leader has them held up in the yard. I am also talking about things more than just aggressive firefighting - like getting out of the house when calls come in, actually learning a territory, bringing in "Overtime ice cream", don't mind getting wet in the summer time, can handle getting picked on by the guys, eating together, will hang the flag, and yes - will participate in some agressive firefighting tactics. Its all part of the job, at least it should be.

I don't have to wait for the next meeting George, I have already said it. The thing is, it's like the sign at the Deja Vu club - hundreds of beautiful women, and 3 ugly ones. None of the women want to believe that they may be 1 of the 3, but everyone there knows. Same thing here. Everyone knows who the slugs are.

So just for fun lets think of some excuses for the above situations.

#1. Why do we have to be in a hurry? It will still be on fire when we get there, right?

#2. Learn all these streets? Why, there is a map on the wall.

#3. The last time Bill worked overtime, he didn't bring in ice cream - so I am not either!

#4 & #5. I don't like playing games. If you get me wet or make fun of me I am gonna call the chief. Waaahhhhh!

#6. I don't eat pork.

#7. Thats not my flag, I am not hanging it. I am not at war.

#8. Anyone in that house would have to be dead, spray through that window.

I bet you can come with at least 2 on your own for an even 10 George! C'mon it was kinda fun. Try it. I am sure you have heard better.

[GFDLT1]

What you are saying is that you agree with the original post that stated that MOST firemen are in it to wear a t-shirt and slap hands? Are you willing to prove how much of a "malcontent" you are by going into every firehouse in the 13th and 14th Battalion and say that you think that MOST firemen are duckers? That is what the man said. If you think that bull**** is true then you must be one of the chosen "Super Firemen" who know the secret handshake. Give me a break.

I mean what I said and I stand by that.

I am not sure what 13th and 14th you are talking about, but I am pretty damn sure that if you go into those houses and ask them about my comments that they would agree.

I don't think that 7Midtown is some super fireman, I think he and I both are people who have a love for this profession and hate seeing what we have coming through our doors everyday in the form of new employees who are just here for a job. I am by no means a super firemen, I am and ALWAYS (YES I SAID ALWAYS) will be a student of the fire service. Mickey I am sure you have guys in your house that have touched a trade magizine or a book (like one of Dunn's or Norman's) in years other than to look at the new fire trucks some department just got in or to look at the pretty fire pictures. They haven't been to any nondepartment offered training because they don't really care about learning more tricks of the trade. That is what I don't like. I don't like the guys that don't give a rat's ass about the brothers and sisters that have gone before us, all they care about is going to their other job in the morning that they make more money at. I am pretty damn sure you have a couple of those guys in your house if you are honest about it. I think that is what the 5 of us Malcontents are trying to express.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

GFD... First of all, my post wasnt directed at you. The person it was directed to knows who he is. Secondly, you just lost one of your points. Both the Norman and Dunn books were two of the 6 books we needed to study to take the last Lt. exam. Thirdly, the original post said MOST firemen are no good at what they do. His words. Of course there are duckers on every fire department. I guess I have been lucky because I have been able to say that MOST of the firemen I work with go in and do their jobs and do them well. I am comfortable with myself, my skills and my experience as a fireman. I will not sit back and have some guy that is having a problem with HIS department trash the majority of hard-working firemen that I know and trust.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Ah, the George I have grown to love and admire is back to only remembering the parts of the post he wants to. Kinda like selective hearing, huh George.

I think the Fire club post stated that there was X number of people who cared about the history and tradition of the job, not just to 'real fireman'.

I guess I should clarify slightly that after ciphoring some more, 75% might be a more accurate number. I was originally thinking only of company officers. Its hard for the guys to get in there when the leader has them held up in the yard. I am also talking about things more than just aggressive firefighting - like getting out of the house when calls come in, actually learning a territory, bringing in "Overtime ice cream", don't mind getting wet in the summer time, can handle getting picked on by the guys, eating together, will hang the flag, and yes - will participate in some agressive firefighting tactics. Its all part of the job, at least it should be.

I don't have to wait for the next meeting George, I have already said it. The thing is, it's like the sign at the Deja Vu club - hundreds of beautiful women, and 3 ugly ones. None of the women want to believe that they may be 1 of the 3, but everyone there knows. Same thing here. Everyone knows who the slugs are.

So just for fun lets think of some excuses for the above situations.

#1. Why do we have to be in a hurry? It will still be on fire when we get there, right?

#2. Learn all these streets? Why, there is a map on the wall.

#3. The last time Bill worked overtime, he didn't bring in ice cream - so I am not either!

#4 & #5. I don't like playing games. If you get me wet or make fun of me I am gonna call the chief. Waaahhhhh!

#6. I don't eat pork.

#7. Thats not my flag, I am not hanging it. I am not at war.

#8. Anyone in that house would have to be dead, spray through that window.

I bet you can come with at least 2 on your own for an even 10 George! C'mon it was kinda fun. Try it. I am sure you have heard better.

And you are back to trying to change history.

IF you agree with what the original poster wrote, then you MUST believe that MOST of your FF are posers. He didn't say officers. He said MOST of the fire service. That has nothing to with only officers, or ugly women or any other way you want to try to deflect this debate.

So....

IF you agree with the original poster, are you officially stating, for all to read, that MOST of the fire fighters who are members of the Memphis FD only there to wear a T-shirt or to smudge dirt on their face? Is that your final answer?

[nyckftbl]

Im here for the beer and women. :eek: :D

[hoosierdaddy]

I'm just a newbie here, but I think the "malcontents" are agreeing with the OP only to a certain extent. None of them appear to agree with his crap about most firefighters being in it for the shirts and high fives. I don't think anyone with half a brain would agree with that. I think they are saying that you will probably find the odd one like that.

As for risking your life to save a kid's baseball cards...wow. I honestly don't know if I could do that. I've seen firefighters save animals though and I like that. I even saw a picture of a firefighter giving mouth to mouth to a dog to save its life.

I may never get to be a firefighter but I respect you all for what you do. Great site too.

[MemphisE34a]

George,

If you scroll through my posts, I never made any mention of the original poster. I said I was standing with Johnny46. He is also from Houston and was taking some flack for defending his brothers position.

The original poster was obviously upset about an situation that we are not all privy to.

I made no mention to t-shirts and dirt smudging. I commented on several of the replys along the way.

Do you not find it a lil bit odd that people that have never met and are in differnt parts of the world (Houston, Memphis, New York, Chicago, Richmond) are all talking about the same thing? I have worked and volunteered in several fire departments ranging from single station departments to upwards of 60.

The article could not be more true. You always bump into the same guys inside the fire building. Surely you have noticed this. If you haven't, I guess you see which side of the fence your on.

I am also curious? Why the doubt for Memphis, Houston, and Chicago? The guy from New York figures only 500 out of 12,000. Thats just a little over 4%.

[hoosierdaddy]

Myself not being a firefighter, I have to ask. How come you always run into the same guys in a burning building? I thought you were told what to do and you did it. Are there really firefighters who hang back to the outside and let the others go in? I never knew this.

[johnny46]

I'll repeat it's human nature that the majority of people in any given profession are going to be scrubs.

It's true in the fire service as well, but you're going to be likely to find birds of a feather flocking together. Maybe some departments are better at trimming the fat than others.

I won't hazard a guess as to actual numbers, and I won't say it's true of every fire department. Some might have a majority of good guys, but that would be unusual, given the broad tide of human history.

Usually all it takes for a crew to go to the crapper is a bad or complacent officer. Officers are a minority that can easily create a majority.

The malcontents are the only types who change things. Contented people are happy. They don't change things because they don't think things are broken. I'll mention that discontented seems a better choice for the word. We're not looking for trouble; the trouble is here and often very proud of being the trouble.

[CaptainGonzo]

Usually all it takes for a crew to go to the crapper is a bad or complacent officer. Officers are a minority that can easily create a majority.

The malcontents are the only types who change things. Contented people are happy. They don't change things because they don't think things are broken. I'll mention that discontented seems a better choice for the word. We're not looking for trouble; the trouble is here and often very proud of being the trouble.

"Contented people" can also be fat dumb and happy and have no plungers or bars on their badge and collars and be the most useless loads on the job... :rolleyes:


They make statements like "If only I could be in charge of the Company or Department for a day... " and would not have the first fracking clue what to do if they were put into the position.

[ChicagoFF]

Are you willing to prove how much of a "malcontent" you are by going into every firehouse in the 13th and 14th Battalion and say that you think that MOST firemen are duckers?

Lol. You know I'm not going to do that. But it is interesting that you picked the 13th and 14th and not the 1st and 11th. Most is an exageration, for my department anyway, but I do agree with the general sentiment of his post. I know you are jagging me a little, but I know you know the guys he's talking about too.

[BackstepFF]

Interesting article....

Do you think that each FD's "30% Club" bears any leadership responsibility to step up and help change things? Or is sitting back and bitching that nobody is as good as they are anymore good enough?
George,
No, just the opposite. I think it's incumbent on the more highly motivated, aggressive firefighters and officers to try to develop similar qualities in the new guys. The problem is they don't all want to buy in to the tradition, duty, honor and all that noise. A lot of the people we're hiring these days are only interested in - When is payday? How much vacation do I get? What other benefits do you have for me? And how little can I do to get by?
Decades of our unions pushing for better benefits have, ironically, worked against us in a sense. Now all of a sudden the job is desirable. And not just to those who are in it for the right reasons.

[almsfan21]

As an aspiring FF, I have to say the 30% club is quite shocking. I thought that most, if not all FF wanted to be on the nozzle going down that long, smoky hallway, or up on a hot roof cutting it open....personally, and this just may be my age showing, but the vacation time, salary, benefits, make little difference on where I want to work. I would much rather work at a dept. with good leadership, a good city council..etc..

[johnny46]

"Contented people" can also be fat dumb and happy and have no plungers or bars on their badge and collars and be the most useless loads on the job... :rolleyes:


They make statements like "If only I could be in charge of the Company or Department for a day... " and would not have the first fracking clue what to do if they were put into the position.
I wouldn't disagree with that, but if the whole crew goes that direction, it is the officer's fault. My point is that a bad officer more easily spreads the contamination than a pipeman or even a chauffer. A load can undermine an officer and make things difficult, but unless the organization is screwed in wrong from the top down, then there are things the officer can do.

[CaptainGonzo]

I wouldn't disagree with that, but if the whole crew goes that direction, it is the officer's fault. My point is that a bad officer more easily spreads the contamination than a pipeman or even a chauffer. A load can undermine an officer and make things difficult, but unless the organization is screwed in wrong from the top down, then there are things the officer can do.

In every organization... there is an "official" leader and an "unofficial" one. In my experience( speaking from the vantage point of 26 years on the job), if the "unofficial" one gets a hair across his gluteus maximus over a decision that the "official" leader made, he plays that trump card to instigate an "us vs. them" battle.

Who loses?

Everybody.

I noticed that Truck7midtown hasn't posted since the first page of the thread...

Typical of a malcontent s***stirrer, dontcha think?

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

Don't buy into all this 30% crap. It is one mans opinion. I look at my shift. Everyone works likes to work hard at fires. I look at neighboring companies. Most of them on my platoon like to work hard at fires too.

[BackstepFF]

If you are lucky enough to work in a department or house, on a shift or platoon with a true A-Team, God bless you. I hope you appreciate how lucky you are. If not, you might find this an interesting read:

“GET THE BABY”
By Jake Rixner
It’s been a long time since the District of Columbia Fire Department recruit class # 289 was in session. The long hot summer of instruction took place right across Interstate 295 from the blue plains sewage treatment plant, and the aroma was something to be forgotten. One thing that will never be forgotten was the quality of instruction.
The District of Columbia Fire Department was probably the finest fire department in the country during the cold war. The threat of nuclear war created an environment where the fire department was well equipped and well trained. The recruits assigned to class 289 started each morning by entering the front door of the academy, signing in the logbook, and placing their turnout gear in neat rows on the drill yard.
After a formal line-up, they changed into physical training clothes and did 20 minutes of calisthenics, followed by a two mile run in military style formation. Cadence was called out by Willy, or Zeke, or any other recruit inspired to do so. 100 yards from the end of the run the troops broke out of formation and sprinted to their turn-out gear and dressed as quickly as possible. They then lined up in full gear with face pieces on, breathing air from their SCBA’s and started individual 50-yard wind sprints. Upon completion of this another line was formed and a bear crawl took the recruit back to the line waiting to do the wind sprint.
The high temperatures and the fact that these sprints were taking place in full turn-out gear, and after the recruit was tired created a situation where you had to dig deep into your heart to force yourself to find the energy to continue. The instructors would get right in the face of anyone who showed signs of fatigue, “ ARE YOU GOING TO GET THE BABY?” The question was, do you have the heart, the guts, the drive to keep going after you think you can’t go anymore and go rescue the baby in the burning building. With the mental image of a trapped infant how could you give up?
Fast-forward to today, the year is 2002. How many young firemen are in physical or mental shape to “Get the baby?” Far too many training programs overemphasize safety and the comfort of the recruits. Do you think that the force of nature that is known as fire could care who you are? Fire is the ultimate equal opportunity destroyer. It takes the life of anyone in its path; the old, the young, and the disabled. Now you can see why we need a force of young, strong men to be ready and able to “Get the baby.”
In today’s culture, one hears of the need for diversity, that the workforce should be representative of the community it serves. Discrimination should not be tolerated by anyone, as has happened in the past. But something even more perverse is occurring in many cities during the hiring practice. Some cities are hiring by numbers. X number of black males, X number of white females, X number of black females, X amount of white males, etc. What about the many other races and cultures? Don’t we need to reserve a place for them to? Why not design a system where the best candidates are recruited for the physically challenging job of firefighter.
Take a moment and imagine if the National Football League hired the same way many city fire departments do today. Playing center, at five foot tall, 110 pounds, Jane Doe. And at the left guard position, standing five foot four, weighing 95 pounds, John Weakling. Isn’t life and property more important than winning a football game?
Training programs need to be designed and delivered by people who have worked in busy firefighting companies. Firefighting experience can’t be read in a book, or bought for any price. It is the experienced training officer that will produce the recruit who will have the best chance for survival on the fire ground, and have the best chance at getting the baby when the moment of truth comes. The real measure of a fire department is; are its members motivated, physically ready, and mentally prepared to endure any hardship, to overcome any difficulty and make that hallway in order to find that baby and get her out of there?
And to my fellow members of class 289, stay low, stay safe, and get the baby!

[FFFRED]

I know of entire departments that encourage and foster cowardice and deriliction of duty as welcome traits in their orgainzations.

Depts that after a drill which was rife with tacical and strategic errors conducted a critique and asked the civilians who stood in to be rescued from this building fire...."how they felt" when they were resuced!!! As if their feelings mattered...it didn't matter that these guys didn't properly vent...didn't know what ladders they had on their rigs...didn't know how to conduct a search, force entry....didn't know how to operate beyond the preconnect...etc. We were something like 5th Due and single handedly got water on the fire and removed an occupant by ladder...needless to say the actual results of the drill weren't what they intended as they didn't expect a company of men who would adapt and overcome the many obstacles presented and aggressively attack the fire.

The same dept which was no different(materially) than the one I worked for when presented in a classroom drill with a two story wood frame private dwelling with fire and smoke showing from 1 set of windows (presumably serving the same room) on the 4 side/ 2nd floor with no information indicating that there was no one inside...consistantly had every company state they would use this "command mode" and set up for later arriving companies...basicly by running around and looking for anything to do but make entry, stretch a line and put out the fire...no searches...no nothing. They would rather let the fire continue to attack the structural integrity of the building than risk doing their jobs.

This dept serves a city that is well over 180,000 people today! This is the type of BS that people here are talking about.

FTM-PTB

[hoosierdaddy]

Good post but I think a real motivator would be to tell a tired recruit, "Go get that 350 pound unconscious man!". Anyone would go get a baby but a 350 pound unconscious man? That may show who's really motivated. This is just my thought.

[MemphisE34a]

Don't buy into all this 30% crap. It is one mans opinion. I look at my shift. Everyone works likes to work hard at fires. I look at neighboring companies. Most of them on my platoon like to work hard at fires too.
Mikey - an excellent point, but think about it. Most places that I am familiar with have all of the aggressive guys on the busiest companies. If you are in the 30%, most of the people around you are also. I have no doubt that your entire Battalion is full of go getters, but what about the rest of the city. Is there no part of your city that when you hear the first due company you say - get the radio boys.....this is gonna be a cluster.

Also consider that at 30%, that means hopefully, every company riding with 4guys will have at least 1 that will get the job done - the other guys will be glad to pull slack or get the utilites, but they are not going to make that aggressive push - even with you pushing them.

Perhaps one reason it is so hard for people on this website to come to grips with is because I would guess that (ready George) a MAJORITY of the people active on these forums are themselves in the 30% club. Although opinions, often clash - I would venture to believe that most people on here are interested in their job and in learning how other people and departments are handling things. If for no other reason, to verify that what they just read is absolutely NOT how they would handle a similar scenario.

Lets face it, I only see a handful of active FDNY, a guy from Chicago, two guys from Houston, Mikey outside Chicago, a few guys scattered across New England, Capt. Old Timer from wherever he is from, Chief Harve, the new Deputy Chief and bunch of other single guys spread out across the land. My point being that proportionately, there are actually very few firefighters participating on this site, and I am sure the ones that do for the most part are passionate about their role as a firefighter.

[MIKEYLIKESIT]

You took the words out of my mouth Lt... I look at who regularly posts in these forums and you are correct that even though many of us disagree time to time there is no lack of passion for firefighting out here.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George,

If you scroll through my posts, I never made any mention of the original poster. I said I was standing with Johnny46. He is also from Houston and was taking some flack for defending his brothers position.

The original poster was obviously upset about an situation that we are not all privy to.

I made no mention to t-shirts and dirt smudging. I commented on several of the replys along the way.

Do you not find it a lil bit odd that people that have never met and are in differnt parts of the world (Houston, Memphis, New York, Chicago, Richmond) are all talking about the same thing? I have worked and volunteered in several fire departments ranging from single station departments to upwards of 60.

The article could not be more true. You always bump into the same guys inside the fire building. Surely you have noticed this. If you haven't, I guess you see which side of the fence your on.

I am also curious? Why the doubt for Memphis, Houston, and Chicago? The guy from New York figures only 500 out of 12,000. Thats just a little over 4%.


Let me apologize if I mischaraterized or misunderstood your position. I would agree that there are pockets of the fire service where there is a troubling lack of testicles. I have the luxury of investigating fires over several states. I see it. Sometimes it leaves me shaking my head. On this, we agree.

My disdain is for the original posters premise that MOST fire fighters are in it for the T-shirt and dist smudging.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George,
No, just the opposite. I think it's incumbent on the more highly motivated, aggressive firefighters and officers to try to develop similar qualities in the new guys. The problem is they don't all want to buy in to the tradition, duty, honor and all that noise. A lot of the people we're hiring these days are only interested in - When is payday? How much vacation do I get? What other benefits do you have for me? And how little can I do to get by?
Decades of our unions pushing for better benefits have, ironically, worked against us in a sense. Now all of a sudden the job is desirable. And not just to those who are in it for the right reasons.

I don't like the way my first post read, so let me clarify. By leadership, I don't mean promotion. I mean at the kitchen table and on the apparatus room floor. So I guess we agree. But there is one thing that struck me as I read your post.

If we look at the number of people who apply for these jobs, and of we look at the number of people who would kill for a job in any career FD at half the pay they are offering, just for the love of the job, one could conclude that the hiring process that many FD's are forced to use is a little screwed up.

[truck7midtown]

In every organization... there is an "official" leader and an "unofficial" one. In my experience( speaking from the vantage point of 26 years on the job), if the "unofficial" one gets a hair across his gluteus maximus over a decision that the "official" leader made, he plays that trump card to instigate an "us vs. them" battle.

Who loses?

Everybody.

I noticed that Truck7midtown hasn't posted since the first page of the thread...

Typical of a malcontent s***stirrer, dontcha think?

This thread was not aimed at any Department or person. I made a general statement that we have people in all ranks that could be classified as slugs.If you took this as a direct attack SORRY.If i did not post this thread and i just stumbled across it would not offend me due to the fact i do my job ....

[MemphisE34a]

If we look at the number of people who apply for these jobs, and of we look at the number of people who would kill for a job in any career FD at half the pay they are offering, just for the love of the job, one could conclude that the hiring process that many FD's are forced to use is a little screwed up.
George,

No problem on the other stuff. On this quote you could not have hit the nail more square!!

In Memphis, the fire department has ZERO participation in the hiring process. It is 100% handled by HR. Very screwed up!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

This thread was not aimed at any Department or person. I made a general statement that we have people in all ranks that could be classified as slugs.If you took this as a direct attack SORRY.If i did not post this thread and i just stumbled across it would not offend me due to the fact i do my job ....

WRONG! You did not say:
we have people in all ranks that could be classified as slugs

You said:
I believe that most of the people that claim to be firefighters want to wear the shirt and ride the truck; however, when it comes to doing the job they want to stand out side and squirt water and then slap hands and say good job.

MOST implies MOST of every fire fighter in every FD. That means 4 out of the 6 guys working in the busiest firehouse in every big city FD. That means MOST of the millions of hard working volunteers who train properly and do their job when they are called to do it. That means MOST of every Chief officer who paid their dues, studied their ass off and are now trying to do the right thing by their guys.

Get it yet?

[truck7midtown]

The label in your helmet says it all dangerous job ......This job will never be totally safe ..If the fire dosent get you today then fire house cooking will get you later....

[MemphisE34a]

George,

No problem on the other stuff. On this quote you could not have hit the nail more square!!

In Memphis, the fire department has ZERO participation in the hiring process. It is 100% handled by HR. Very screwed up!
George - I wanted to add something else to that.

HR primarily looks at quotas - at least here. Previous fire department experience counts for nothing. Fire department certifications count for nothing. EMT counts for nothing. Military experience - nothing.

My class consisted of 76 people. 72 men - 36 white & 36 black. 4 women - 2 white & 2 black. Along the way, 2 guys got fired - one white & one black. Kinda cute how after the "rigorous" testing process it all worked out so neat and tidy.

Having said all of that, I will give credit where it is due. Two things - a paramedic liscense will absolutely help you get hired and our current administration seems to be trying every way possible to "aid" HR with the hiring process.

[truck7midtown]

LETS TELL FIRE STORIES OH YOU PROBABLY DONT HAVE ANY......Because if you did you would know that all fire departments like everthing else in this world have weak links and the strong have to pick up the slack.

[LeatherHed4Life]

just wanted to say ive enjoyed reading this thread. Particularly from the "well seasoned" officers who i know have seen this topic come and go, time and time again. There have also been several notable quotes to take down too.

[johnny46]

MOST implies MOST of every fire fighter in every FD. That means 4 out of the 6 guys working in the busiest firehouse in every big city FD. That means MOST of the millions of hard working volunteers who train properly and do their job when they are called to do it. That means MOST of every Chief officer who paid their dues, studied their ass off and are now trying to do the right thing by their guys.

Get it yet?
No, it means simply most. You could have them concentrated in certain districts or shifts. Water seeks its own level and loads on good crews get run off most of the time.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

No, it means simply most. You could have them concentrated in certain districts or shifts. Water seeks its own level and loads on good crews get run off most of the time.

Way to have the conviction to stick by your post/:rolleyes:

[FlyingKiwi]

Because if you did you would know that all fire departments like everthing else in this world have weak links and the strong have to pick up the slack.

Now that just isn't fair.

SlackJawedYokel has said some damn straight up things in this here forum.

And your problem is??????

Really I am confused by your yes/no/maybe/oops/I apologise type of rambling.

What are you trying to say ??????

1. I is da best fireating beastie ever was born and everyone else is BS.

2. I is good, others are better but I don't know them so they can sod off.

3. I might live to retire, as long as I can get rid of my current BS attitude.

Or something else?

Please answer as enquiring minds would like to know.

[johnny46]

Way to have the conviction to stick by your post/:rolleyes:

So you're telling me that if you have twenty people divided up into groups of five and you say that most of them are bad firefighters, you must have an equal distribution?

Pardon me, but that's idiocy. Complete idiocy. To believe that the majority must be evenly distributed throughout a fire department--that is to say a relatively constant number from station to station and shift to shift--when we are allowed to transfer, considering the influence we have on our coworkers, considering the overwhelming power of the birds of a feather phenomenon and the capability of a strong captain to make a load's life a living hell your idea is completely absurd. It's rhetoric; I don't know if it's consciously a straw man, but it is a straw man argument. By requiring this completely inhuman (as in sociologically daft) trait, you will unseat the argument for those who do not share the bleak outlook of us malcontents. They will say "My crew is aggressive to the last man, so the idea that most firemen are not interested in proper execution of their sworn duty is absurd."

It's a cheap tactic, but I'll admit it does often work.

[E229Lt]

LETS TELL FIRE STORIES OH YOU PROBABLY DONT HAVE ANY......Because if you did you would know that all fire departments like everthing else in this world have weak links and the strong have to pick up the slack.

They all have idiots too and the smart have to keep you alive.

I don't have any fire stories though, maybe someday I will.

[MattyS]

I think the Fire club post stated that there was X number of people who cared about the history and tradition of the job, not just to 'real fireman'.
...
I don't have to wait for the next meeting George, I have already said it. The thing is, it's like the sign at the Deja Vu club - hundreds of beautiful women, and 3 ugly ones. None of the women want to believe that they may be 1 of the 3, but everyone there knows. Same thing here. Everyone knows who the slugs are.



A few notes, Lou.

1) The Fire 500 quote is from Bobbie Pressler, retired FDNY and FOOL

2) I am Seattle, not NYC just for any clarification purposes (previous posts, PM's, and replies in this thread lead me to say this. its amazing how many guys think having a tag MattyS means your automatically NY. God forbid an Italian work somewhere else...)

3) Feel free to count Seattle in to the list of Memphis, Houston, Richmond, Chi-Town, NYC, and Im sure more than my tiny house-wrecker (thats a truckman to those of us not up on that..) brain can handle. I honestly feel it is a sickening, growing disease on the W/C that more are in it for the $$ and bene's than for the love of the job. We have nobody but ourselves to blame. We get compensated very well for what we do, with strong unions and for the most part supportive city councils. But when you have to offer OT to fill a funeral-detail rig to attend a service because the 2nd job gets in the way....it is a sad, sad day. I had been blessed with being turned onto the FOOLS so early on into my career, enabling me to surround myself with firemen like myself that thrive off the very founding pilars of our service..brotherhood, honor, and tradition. That I never have to worry about becoming a 10day-and-a-paycheck fireman further down the road.

4) The Deja-Vu reference-quote had me on the floor, and damnit...how very true it is! Both in the analogy to the service, and to the women of the Vu

[johnny46]

I think it's sort of up to us to spread the attitude, though. I can't imagine doing anything else as a real job. My side job is with another department. I find myself talking about the job many many times. I'd rather hang out with firemen than other sorts of people. I love this job. I win the lottery on my in between day, I'll be at work the next day, I swear to God. I don't think that's the only way to be, but I do believe a certain amount of love makes you a better fireman.
When we go on the road, my wife has to endure visits to fire stations. Maybe the guys are enduring them too and I'm the one having fun, but I sure enjoy meeting visiting firemen and I think it's really cool when guys come around and ride out with us.

I have three questions that I ask guys that come to our station for the first time.
1. What did you do before the fire department?
2. Why did you join the fire department? (The wrong answer is for the benefits or the five days off. Sometimes the new guy is coached to give the wrong answer to set me off. You know the right range of answers without me saying, I'm sure.)
3. How many gallons of brake fluid does the pumper take?

I think people want to be accepted and if great pains are taken within the fire department, we can weed out or change many guys. The punks who want to find the slowest station possible right out of the academy, I don't know. I think ferret out a reason to fire them, but that's not always possible. The best we can usually accomplish is to get our crews in shape. A good crew will catch the slippage that occurs with most people--me included. I'm glad when someone is enough of a true brother to tell me I'm screwing up. That's what real brothers do, right?

[FlyingKiwi]

I don't have any fire stories though, maybe someday I will.

Get the bartender a Guinness or 6. :p

[MemphisE34a]

A few notes, Lou.

1) The Fire 500 quote is from Bobbie Pressler, retired FDNY and FOOL

2) I am Seattle, not NYC just for any clarification purposes (previous posts, PM's, and replies in this thread lead me to say this. its amazing how many guys think having a tag MattyS means your automatically NY. God forbid an Italian work somewhere else...)
MattyS,

I didn't see the quotes around the comment. I did see that you were in Seattle. I thought maybe you might have been former FDNY - thanks for the clear up and thanks for bringing the quote from Pressler, its classic!!