Closer or Quality

[osfd100]

I saw this on the other website and thought I would ask it here.

When calling mutual aid, How many feel it is nescessary to call the closest department?

Have you ever thought of going to a department a little further away to get better qualified / trained FF's or more modernized and up to date equipment instead of calling the closest?

My thoughts... Unless its a huge difference (Many Minutes) go with the quality!!!

[crankshaft]

Depends on what the need is. Do you need man power or a 110 ft stick. Do you need ALS instead of BLS? Do you need tankers or pumpers?

[nmfire]

Only when we require something that the further away department provides that the closer one doesn't, such as RIT.

[osfd100]

Crankshaft & NM

Lets say you need a 110' stick.
Lets say there is 1) 5 Miles away and 1) 8 Miles away. The one 8 Miles away has the better reputaion on and off the fireground. The one 8 Miles away has a reputation for a good training program and better roof and ladder ops, who do you call?


Lets say you need a pumper and manpower 1) 5 Miles away they have small turnouts & questionable response times" The other 8 miles away, good skills and good training, very reliable, who do you call.


To add a little extra suppose the one 8 miles away had to pass by the 5 mile away's station. Would that alter your decision?

[nmfire]

Well, we don't have this dilemma here fortunately. However, i think we all know what the obvious RIGHT choice is. I just don't want to have to be the one to make it.

[crankshaft]

For the ladder I would want the closer one

[osfd100]

Crankshaft;

Thats just good marketing!!!
You call them both and hopefully they will return the favor. Activity is good for moral.
And if its mutual aid usually not as much paper work.

[jfaz81]

Let's all quit beatin around the bush and ask the real question here. If you're a paid department and you need to call mutual aid, do you call a volunteer dept. next door or another paid department further away and use the excuse of training. Someone obviously got skipped over during the last Hartford fire and is a little angry. The city of Hartford mutual aid plan goes all the way to Waterbury and New Haven and even into Mass. before they call a vlounteer dept.. My dept. went to do station coverage at the Hawthorne St. fire in 99' only because our Chief at the time was Hartford's ex Asst. Chief and called up and said not if they wanted us but WHERE do you want my engine and ladder.

[kvfc803]

jfaz,

Not positive, but i do not believe that was the triggered cause of this thread seeing it was started from someone in Old Saybrook. I may be wrong though.

[osfd100]

KVFC803 is correct my question has nothing to do with Career vs Volunteer!!!

It makes no difference to me whether they get their training printed on the back of their pay check or in the classroom.

[DeputyMarshal]

KVFC803 is correct my question has nothing to do with Career vs Volunteer!!!

It makes no difference to me whether they get their training printed on the back of their pay check or in the classroom.

Cracks like that don't exactly make your first statement seem all that credible. :rolleyes:

Hypotheticals aside, you call mutual aid to supply whatever it is you need on the scene. How you make that decision should be up to the IC and standing SOPs developed long in advance.

(And yes, Career vs Volunteer is a factor in making that decision to any competant IC. It shouldn't be the only factor but to claim that it isn't a factor at all is disingenuous.)

[osfd100]

My point is Career vs Volunteer is not the focus of my question!!!!And I didn't want this thread to be the start of another "Beat the Dead Horse Syndrome".

I hope you can appreciate that....

[KeithA8]

Where I work we call Hartford 1st (because they are right next door) and the next closest after that paid or volly. I will tell you that this is not the case when our neighbor volly's need help. They NEVER call us paid guys. Newington has called Cromwell and not us. Does this make sense? Take the BIG Windsor fire - PERFECT EXAMPLE!!!!! Not a paid dept. to be seen anywhere! Why? It's the good 'ol boy syndrome. Hartford calls who they know will come with what they want.

[scotts48]

For your information, Newington has called and continues to call West Hartford for mutual aid when it is on that side of town or in despiration. Cromwell is part of the 5 town task force (which is overused) with Wethersfield, Rocky Hill, and Berlin. They all get called if the situation should warrent it. I dont even live in Newington anymore and i know this.

[KeithA8]

I actualy like your task force idea and think it's a pro-active way to deal with the day time shortage of man power. But I have been on for many of your fires and never been called for coverage. You guys might want to rethink how this task force is utilized. The few times I've been to a job in Newington is when we were dispacthed from a cell caller who didn't know they were in Newington. (Border Box). I'm not knockin Newington guys, just questioning if they make the best desision for the citizen and there own safety. They come to us for almost every 2nd alarm to at least cover.

[scotts48]

Well i know that Whtfd has been called in many times. Last time i was in a newington fire was back in the early summer last year close to the berlin turnpike. I know for a fact that west hartford was stationed at co.1 on main st as coverage and thats only b/c there was no more room left on the street to put apparatus. But whatever. There needs to be a more routine way of calling for this aid b/c it only can benefit the firefighters. Call what you need for equipment first cuz there maybe a longer response, then get manpower from where ever fast even if it means knocking on the next door.

[KeithA8]

There is a routine way - Intercity! One radio transmition gets you what you want. You're right for that fire whtfd did cover co. 1. Wasn't my shift.

[scotts48]

Im talking a routine method of selecting which apparatus and from where. too many to choose from, ya know

[KeithA8]

Got it! Thanks.

[OnEtRuCkSiXpUmP]

KeithA8- In regards to your comment about the big Windsor fire(it was actually in Windsor Locks). There were several paid departments called to that scene. Off the top of my head I can remember Thompsonville,(actually all the Enfield departments have some paid staff, and all of them responded), Manchester, Colchester(combi), Somers(combi), and I am sure that there are more, it was a 3 day event. Alot of departments South and West of Bradley did not get called, including Windsor and Suffield(to the North) except to cover stations, because of the Task Force activations. They brought departments from as far as Andover, Bolton and Union. Definetly NOT the optimum usage of Mutual Aid or surrounding resources, but also far from the good old boy system. The way I understood it, the plan was for Mondays' operations to be carried out by the career department Task Forces, such as the one including East, West and The City of Hartford, but as it became evident that the main body of fire was under control from jumping to the next 6 story building, a decision was made that it could be handled with the resources already summoned. I still don't totally understand the Task Force, especially because the Mutual Aid that WLox usually calls didn't even go to the call. I gather that it is due to proximity to Bradley; in case of an incident at the airport, you would need resources familiar with the area rather than farther away. Just hoping to shed a little light on a confusing subject that caused a lot of hard feelings.......:confused:

[Dalmatian190]

Why are you calling for mutual aid?

In my area...kicking, screaming, still not 100% but pretty good...

But for 10 years we've used Alarm Cards.

OIC can simply request his 1st Alarm to be filled out, 2nd alarm, or something like "1 Engine-Tank and manpower" and the dispatcher just pulls the next department on the alarm card whose available to fill it.

It was pretty amazing how many little games Chiefs had been playing on the margins disappeared when they actually had to write down an alarm card and submit to the dispatch center for anyone to see.

OIC still has the ability to special call resources not on the alarm card -- maybe an Engine he knows with a large CAFS system, or a Hose Tender, or a 100' mid-mount tower for a job another aerial can't do.

Major incidents going beyond the alarm card, the dispatchers usually take care of. And they will balance operational requests ("Start me four more tankers") with maintaining coverage with minimum move-ups -- the 4 tankers you get may be the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th next closest ones. 3 & 4 got left in quarters because their stations are in good locations to cover 1/2/5/6's home areas.

[Adze39]

KeithA8- In regards to your comment about the big Windsor fire(it was actually in Windsor Locks). There were several paid departments called to that scene. Off the top of my head I can remember Thompsonville,(actually all the Enfield departments have some paid staff, and all of them responded), Manchester, Colchester(combi), Somers(combi), and I am sure that there are more, it was a 3 day event. Alot of departments South and West of Bradley did not get called, including Windsor and Suffield(to the North) except to cover stations, because of the Task Force activations. They brought departments from as far as Andover, Bolton and Union. Definetly NOT the optimum usage of Mutual Aid or surrounding resources, but also far from the good old boy system. The way I understood it, the plan was for Mondays' operations to be carried out by the career department Task Forces, such as the one including East, West and The City of Hartford, but as it became evident that the main body of fire was under control from jumping to the next 6 story building, a decision was made that it could be handled with the resources already summoned. I still don't totally understand the Task Force, especially because the Mutual Aid that WLox usually calls didn't even go to the call. I gather that it is due to proximity to Bradley; in case of an incident at the airport, you would need resources familiar with the area rather than farther away. Just hoping to shed a little light on a confusing subject that caused a lot of hard feelings.......:confused:

What Windsor Locks fire are you talking about? The mill from this July? If you are, I think you better check your facts on what M/A departments were there. WL's normal mutual aid departments were on scene for that call.