Uhh oh! PD vs Ambulance...

[Lamah989]

Don't see this every day...

http://www.wnem.com/Global/story.asp?S=6205614

(TV-5) -- A crash involving a police cruiser and an ambulance sent three people to a hospital in Saginaw. The accident happened as both the ambulance and the police officer were responding to a call. The vehicles collided at South Warren and Atwater.

Two medical personnel from the ambulance and a police officer had to be extracted from their vehicles. All three have been taken to a local hospital for non-life threatening injuries.


Be safe!

[Dickey]

DOH!!

Extracted? Like teeth??

[Lamah989]

I hope they numbed the area first... Ouch!

Who's going to be first to comment on who didn't follow due regard? One can make quick conclusions from the video but I don't want to be the one to say it.

Sigh... why this has to happen in this day in age...

Maybe we need a STOP means STOP campaign?

[AZFF25]

Look's like the AMBO driver is in trouble.......

[Catch22]

Look's like the AMBO driver is in trouble.......

Kind of what I was thinking. I'm betting niether driver is innocent, by any means (never known a cop to run at less than Mach 1). However, by the looks of the video there was Warren was a through street with no stop signs. If the officer was southbound, had no stop sign, and the ambulance was eastbound (struck cruiser on pass. side), I'm assuming he had a stop sign and failed to do so. I'd guess both were travelling at a pretty good clip for the cruiser to stop 100' from the collision and the ambulance to carry on across a divided street into a yard.

At the same time, perhaps a comms issue? I know both my departments call out intersections when we approach to ensure an ambulance or another apparatus isn't going through.

[cozmosis]

At the same time, perhaps a comms issue? I know both my departments call out intersections when we approach to ensure an ambulance or another apparatus isn't going through.

That's well and good if you are on operating on the same frequency. Here, police, fire and EMS all operate on separate channels (like most of the world) and only think about coming together when it's a large-scale incident... and sometimes not even then.

[dday05]

The site will not show the video. But I'll say just from what I've read, whats so hard about stoping at a stop sign? an extra few second could save alot of grief and even some ones life. How ever I do know that seconds count in emergency situations, but what good are you if you and your crew don't make it on scene? I hope they make a nice recovery.

[BrianB35]

Both of them are in trouble.

First, due regard. Cop didn't follow it. In MI the order is ambulance, pd and then fire. This was taught in our FF1 and FF2 class by a FF who was also a LEO. If LEO saw EMS then he/she has to pull over.

Second, stop sign. Ambulance should have stoped and looked. All intersections should be taken with caution. He/she should have seen the LEO and should have blared the horns at him/her.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Catch22]

That's well and good if you are on operating on the same frequency. Here, police, fire and EMS all operate on separate channels (like most of the world) and only think about coming together when it's a large-scale incident... and sometimes not even then.

That's an easy fix, though. Either A, everyone use the scan option. Or B, create or assign an operational frequency so everyone knows who is doing what. We do this within the fire service all the time, particularly during mutual aid incidents.

Of course, there's option C, do what we've always done and take the chance of this occurring. Not being able to communicate with each other is but an excuse, especially with the money out there for interoperability. There is no reason that EMS and PD can't scan or change frequencies with FD on the FD channel during a fire/rescue response. Same holds true with PD and FD on an EMS response, or EMS and FD on a LE response.

My little rural town does this frequently, even without a fancy dispatch center (under construction, will probably screw things up :rolleyes: ). Everyone knows if we're going on a fire, we go to the FD frequency, etc.

[doughesson]

On my street,the only stoppages are ,on the East side,where there is a grade school and two miles West which intersects with a major thoroughfare and has a stop sign.
People crossing that street have to stop but rarely do.A lot of times lately,I have noticed that people will stop when running East or West bound and don't understand why you are hollering out the window"There is NO stop sign there!"
The major problem might be that people are paying to much attention to their phone call than they are paying to driving their mobile phone booth.

[MemphisE34a]

I know both my departments call out intersections when we approach to ensure an ambulance or another apparatus isn't going through.
You have got to be kidding me. Your officers in fire equipment report intersections as they are responding like they are 1 Adam 12 in 'hot pursuit' on last night's episode of cops??

[Catch22]

You have got to be kidding me. Your officers in fire equipment report intersections as they are responding like they are 1 Adam 12 in 'hot pursuit' on last night's episode of cops??

If they know that they may be crossing an intersection with another apparatus, yes. We don't do every freaking intersection, but we are aware of where our other apparatus are responding from and their likely route and will call out intersections where we are likely to cross paths.

[Bones42]

Scan no work for us, PD on digital, FD on analog. Not possible with our current radios.

2nd, no we don't call out intersections. No reason to for us. We "stop" at stop signs if the way is not visibly clear. We "stop" at red lights (no, not at green ones) if the way is not visibly clear. IF and when we can see both ways at an intersection, we may do a slow roll through a stop sign and/or red light.

It amazes me that people don't do something like this and fly through red lights and/or stop signs. It's simply unheard of in my area.

[Ack8236]

Both of them are in trouble.

First, due regard. Cop didn't follow it. In MI the order is ambulance, pd and then fire. This was taught in our FF1 and FF2 class by a FF who was also a LEO. If LEO saw EMS then he/she has to pull over.

Second, stop sign. Ambulance should have stoped and looked. All intersections should be taken with caution. He/she should have seen the LEO and should have blared the horns at him/her.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't believe there's any "order" regarding police, fire and ambulance. PA 300 states that you may proceed through red lights, stop signs, etc, only if it is SAFE to do so. If the ambulance had a stop sign, they are at fault.

[BrianB35]

I don't believe there's any "order" regarding police, fire and ambulance. PA 300 states that you may proceed through red lights, stop signs, etc, only if it is SAFE to do so. If the ambulance had a stop sign, they are at fault.

Our class was taught there is an order and one of the students who's a retired MSP officer said there was. They both said if a LEO didn't pull over for an ambulance they would be in trouble.

[MemphisE34a]

If they know that they may be crossing an intersection with another apparatus, yes. We don't do every freaking intersection, but we are aware of where our other apparatus are responding from and their likely route and will call out intersections where we are likely to cross paths.
Catch,

Sorry for the delay in responding - been busy.

Anyway, that makes much more sense. You original post made it sound as if you were calling intersections like the police do when they are chasing someone. Seemed a little over the top. The explanation clears it up.

I have never gotten on the radio, but do know where we often meet other companies and will warn the driver to be on the heads up as we approach an intersection- especially if it is an overtime or out-of-rank driver filling in and not familiar with the area.

[dday05]

Who knows maybe some year down the road we'll have to respond to calls with the flow of traffic?

[Chief2100]

I have been in the fire service for 11 years served as Asst. Chief, Chief, and currently Lt. also been a police officer for 7 years I have never heard of due regard, if were responding to an incident together Fire, EMS, and Police we follow the rules of the road if there is a stop sign or red light then we stop clear it and proceed. I have used the radio to let other apparatus who were approaching a low visibility intersection traveling East that other units were approaching traveling South as a just in case precaution. But I can't see where the officer is at fault even if they do have some kind of Due Regard statute the ambulance should've stopped cleared the intersection and then went. If they pulled in behind the cruiser and for some reason they have some kind of super ambulance that can outrun the police car then he should yield the right of way. Don't take my comments as being critical of that system I do see its merits I have had many times that I would be responding to a full code in the ambulance and get behind an Engine Company barely doing 50 mph. Regardless of whos at fault I hope they all have speedy recovery.

[Lamah989]

Our class was taught there is an order and one of the students who's a retired MSP officer said there was. They both said if a LEO didn't pull over for an ambulance they would be in trouble.

I would talk to this MSP officer, his commander and maybe your Chief, this is blatantly wrong and you and everyone in that class needs to know this. Maybe he was suggesting there might be an unwritten rule about who meets at an intersection running code and who goes but this is no such law in Michigan.

As a matter of fact, the MSP is investigating this accident and has already mentioned the MMR rig was at fault.

There is no order, under PA 300 you are allowed to proceed past a stop sign, red light, drive the wrong direction on a road, speed, in your emergency vehicle as long as you use due regard which has been alleged the MMR rig didn't.

> Follow Up Story < (http://www.mlive.com/news/sanews/index.ssf?/base/news-4/117379920472380.xml&coll=9)

[Resq14]

I have been in the fire service for 11 years served as Asst. Chief, Chief, and currently Lt. also been a police officer for 7 years I have never heard of due regard

Ummmm... you were a police officer for 7 years and have never heard of "due regard"?

Your location on your profile says Alabama. Let's start there.

Alabama Code, §32-5-96 (1975) provides:
The speed limitations as set forth in this article shall not apply to vehicles when operated with due regard for safety and under the direction of state troopers, police or road or other officers of the law, as herein provided, in the case of apprehension of violators of the law or of persons charged with or suspected of any such violation, nor to fire departments or fire patrol vehicles when traveling in response to a fire alarm, nor to public or private ambulances when traveling in emergencies. The exemption shall not however protect the driver of such vehicles or his principal from the consequences of reckless disregard of the safety of others, as provided by law.

........ it's kind of an important concept, and this is kind of an important law that directly deals with emergency responses... :confused:

In a nutshell, the operator of an emergency vehicle typically can avail herself of certain priviliges prescribed by law while en-route to an emergency, including such things as operating against the flow of traffic, exceeding the posted speed limit, and proceeding past traffic control devices. Usually, at minimum, emergency lights are required. Many states also mandate use of the siren and/or bell. When someone gets hurt while you are invoking these driving privileges and the person was obeying the law, it basically means that you failed to use due regard to prevent the collision.

Read Wilbur's article on Due Regard:
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=15&id=6957

I'm surprised that someone with as much experience as you claim to have would not be familiar with this.

[LaFireEducator]

Anytime any emergency vehicle fails to stop at a red light or stop sign and fails to clear the intersection, and an accident results, that driver is wrong. Period.

Why is there even a debate about this?

Maybe if every emergency vehicle operator that was involved in an intersection accident where he ignored the red light or stop sign was fired from his career gig or kicked out of his volunteer organization and criminally charged, we would finally get the message.

We are 100% responsible for what happens at intersections where we do not have the green. Period.

[Chief2100]

Resq 14 I can assure you I am familiar with our Title 32 codes at least enough that I know 32-5-96 was repealed by Acts 1980 No.80-434 on
May 19, 1980. Now what I was stating was that I have never heard of any particular law that certain emergency vehicles must yield to others which are classified as higher priority that would be a different application of the term due regard than that which is typically used in our Title 13 (Criminal Code) and Title 32 (Traffic Code) and from my experience I have not heard of Due Regard in that format. But Thank you for calling my attention to it as I can see after reading it again that it didn't specify the form of due regard.
Now in reference to using emergency equipment per 32-5-213 all emergency vehicles are required to be equipped a siren, and/or bell, etc. and must be audible within 200 feet and must be used if the emergency lights are activated so long as the vehicle is being moved on a public road. Other states are different from what I understand.
Ummmm... you were a police officer for 7 years and have never heard of "due regard"? I am still a Police Officer and yes that sounded dumb after reading it agian :) Thanks. Be careful and stay safe.

[Chief2100]

sorry it posted so many times :confused: I have not the slightest of what went wrong:eek:

[Chief2100]

sorry it posted so many times :confused: I have not the slightest of what went wrong:eek:

[Chief2100]

sorry it posted so many times :confused: I have not the slightest of what went wrong:eek:

[Chief2100]

sorry it posted so many times :confused: I have not the slightest of what went wrong:eek:
actually I believe I know its a malfunction between the keyboard and the chair